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Battle Against ISIS; North Carolina Murders; Hostage Negotiations

Aired February 13, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, here we go, top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now, ISIS terrorists are just a few short miles away from hundreds of U.S. troops. American warplanes have just now been spotted actually flying over this Iraqi town that is now under control of ISIS. They have stormed al-Baghdadi with rocket launchers and mortars waking up sleeping cells just within the town just north of Ramadi to help them carry out the series of attacks, including suicide bombings.

And now they have their sights set on this air base here just nine miles southwest of that town, al-Baghdadi. This is the case that is home to some 320 Americans who are there training Iraqi forces, well within range of ISIS rockets.

And CNN has now confirmed they believe most if not all of the ISIS militants were wearing Iraqi uniforms, this just coming in today from the Pentagon.

So let's go straight to CNN's Phil Black.

You say the base is sprawling, as it stands right now, not immediately threatening any of these Americans here, but Iraqis, the security forces have called in for reinforcements, Phil. Tell me why.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Clearly, they're under great pressure, Brooke. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

The attack on the town, al-Baghdadi, followed by the assault on the air base puts significant pressure on local security forces. In terms of defense of the air base, the Pentagon says it was successful. The Iraqi security forces dealt with it. That attack failed. But it was clearly a significant attack, one that involved some planning, 20 to 25 attackers, all of them or most of them in Iraqi military uniforms, and a number of suicide bombers among them.

The Iraqi security officials in the area say there were as many as eight suicide bombers that took part in this assault, so a big attack, certainly. But the U.S. military for the moment is saying it isn't too concerned because the attack took place at the other end of this very large facility, a long way from where its personnel were, but it does believe that these attacks will continue and clearly now that ISIS has control of al-Baghdadi, a town just 10 or so miles away, it has a position from which to launch further attacks from, Brooke. BALDWIN: Phil Black in Northern Iraq. Thank you, Phil.

I want to stay on this, because this is a strategic gain. This is a huge strategic gain near this air base as the Pentagon again admitting that ISIS is now gaining this foothold. Also beyond Iraq and Syria here, just broadening out this picture for you, you can see we have highlighted other neighboring countries. You have Libya, Yemen, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan now seeing a rise of ISIS militants.

The reason for this, defections by members of the Taliban. It's a rebranding of sorts as Taliban members realize fighting under the black ISIS flag will get them not only more money, but more recruits.

Let me bring in two voices here, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling and CNN military analyst and former commanding general for the Europe and Seventh Army. Also here, Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, founder for Defense of Democracies.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

And, General Hertling, I want to get right into what we just heard from this Pentagon briefing that these ISIS militants are now apparently wearing Iraqi uniforms as they're encroaching upon this air base. My question would be where did they get them and what does this tell you about what they're capable of?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I would ask to temper the language a little bit, Brooke, because al-Baghdadi, the town that we're talking about, is a little mud hut village along the Euphrates River.

It's close to Al Asad Air Base, which is a sprawling complex. And Iraqi police or Iraqi army uniforms are relatively easy to get, even on local market.s They're not that distinctive. I think the very fact that they were attempting to gain access to the base through one of the entrances -- and there are multiple entrances to Al Asad -- I have been there several times -- shows me they're attempting to do some things.

This could be the equivalent of a sleeper cell raising up out of the town of al-Baghdadi, but it's typical of the kind of tactics they will use to try and sneak on base. The fact that eight of them had what we assume to be suicide vests are -- it's a normal tactic of a lot of terrorist groups that, hey, do not captured. Attempt your attack. And if someone encounters you, take out as many of the infidels as you possibly can.

But, again, what I would say, for the Marines on this base, they are secure. Al Asad had been attacked multiple times with rockets and mortars even during the time when there were tens of thousands of U.S. forces there. The rockets that are launched there are not launched from a system that will be accurate in fire.

The mortar fire that is toward the base will not come anywhere near the complexes where the Americans are. And I think the Americans on the base are relatively safe, but there are -- there are things that you need to do to ensure better security.

BALDWIN: Two things. Let me follow up with you, General, one being what would the vetting be like I guess at these gates, whether it's on behalf of the Iraqis or on behalf of U.S. in terms of gaining access? And, two, you say they would not be within range threatened by any kind of mortars. Just confirming that from you.

HERTLING: Well, I am confirming that they might be within range, but, well, at the outer perimeters of the base.

(CROSSTALK)

HERTLING: But you're talking about a base, Brooke, that's about five miles wide by about three miles long. It's very difficult to aim mortar fire at a particular place from that kind of distance unless you have an observer.

The rockets are arbitrarily sent usually off some kind of handmade rail and they don't strike targets very accurately. The vetting at the gates, the Iraqi soldiers that are there have been taught, and there's usually a serpentine complex to get into the base. They have overwatch.

It's difficult because sometimes until you get on a person and you see what they have, it's difficult to detect whether or not they have suicide vests or not, but there's a procedure that someone will go through in order to get onto the base. So most of the time, it's very difficult to enter a sprawling base like this without being checked on multiple -- in multiple approaches.

BALDWIN: OK.

Daveed, to you. It's interesting hearing the general talk about al- Baghdadi as is this mud hut of a village along the Euphrates here. But we do know that members of these ISIS militants have managed to advance and they have used some pretty cowardly attacks, because in these communities in this part of Iraq, they're targeting the children, they're targeting the elderly, again, suicide bombings.

What does it tell you about the capability of this particular group?

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: That's an excellent question. I don't think this tells us a great deal about their capability.

My argument for some time is that ISIS has been on a downward spiral, not that they will go away. They have a pretty strong foothold in Eastern Syria, but they have lost a lot of territory, although one thing I have explicitly said since the beginning of January is that they could make gains in Anbar province.

There are multiple reasons they would want to do that. One of them is precisely what we're talking about, which is that they want to attack the Al Asad Air Base. Given that they're losing ground right now, one of their most important plays is to try to send some sort of signal that the United States needs to get out of Iraq. And Al Asad is the most obvious target to try to do that. They have

launched previously a fairly major attack on Al Asad. We haven't had anything that major this time around. But taking the town of al- Baghdadi is one step along the route to trying to attack Al Asad.

I agree with General Hertling that we shouldn't overstate what al- Baghdadi is. There's other much larger cities in Anbar province which they could try to overrun as well. But all of this is in context of al-Baghdadi not being a major strategic advance for them. Instead, the biggest thing they gain is the symbol of being closer to Al Asad, rather than this being a major victory.

BALDWIN: That's precisely what it is. No overstating this mud hut of a town, but it is strategically geographically placed nine miles from this huge get that they have their eyes on very clearly.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling and Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, thank you both very, very much.

HERTLING: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the feds now looking into whether the murders of three Muslim students near UNC Chapel Hill were, in fact, motivated by hate. You're about to hear how one of the victims felt about America in her own words.

Plus, the parents of the American held hostage and killed by ISIS James Foley speak out to CNN and reveal their biggest regret about their efforts behind the scenes.

And more of Brian Williams' stories raising eyebrows, stories from the pope, to the Berlin Wall, to what he said the Navy SEAL gave him from the bin Laden raid in Pakistan. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Moments ago, actually, President Obama issued a statement on the three Muslim students shot and killed Tuesday in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, calling their deaths outrageous and brutal.

Let me quote part of what the president said. "The FBI is taking steps to determine whether federal laws were violated. No one in the United States of America should ever be targeted because of who they are, what they look like and how they worship."

Now the FBI is determining if the deaths of N.C. State student Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, her sister, Yusor, and Yusor's husband, Deah Barakat, could be labeled a hate crime. Friends and family, members of these victims say they believe it was.

One friend recalls a phone call that Yusor made after the friend had left the condo complex where Yusor and the suspect had lived and Yusor asked her if anyone had approached her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMIRA ATA, FRIEND: And we're like no. We just left. We didn't see anybody. And I asked her why and she said, I don't know, because my neighbor came to my doorstep. And he had a gun. She didn't say that he was pointing it, but he did have one, and he told her that your friends are too loud and they woke up my wife.

NADA SALEM, FRIEND: When we heard about this, he was the first -- he was the only person to come to our mind just because you just don't come -- you don't come to your neighbor's house with a gun. You just don't do that.

ATA: It seems like it is because they were the only people that were shot in the neighborhood. I mean, if he went and maybe killed all the neighbors maybe, then we can be like, oh, he has an issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But a neighbor told "The News and Observer" Hicks was repeatedly getting cars towed, reprimanding multiple people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA MANESS, NEIGHBOR: I have seen him be very unfriendly to a lot of people in this community.

QUESTION: Basically, he yelled at everybody regardless...

(CROSSTALK)

MANESS: Yes, he did, equal opportunity anger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me turn now to Arsalan Iftikhar, civil rights lawyer and senior editor of "The Islamic Monthly" and CNN legal analyst Mark O'Mara.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

Thank you, Brooke.

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Arsalan, I would love to begin with you just because we have quickly now gotten a statement from the president of the United States. This is the first time we have seen him weigh in on this, referencing the fact that the FBI is taking steps to determine if federal laws were violated. What do you make of the president's words?

ARSALAN IFTIKHAR, LEGAL DIRECTOR, COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS: I think they're very important words, Brooke.

I think this is a heinous, outrageous murder that occurred at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill where three young Muslim college students were executed with bullets to each one of their heads by somebody who on social media had anti-religion bias, who even referred to Islam in one of his postings.

I think if the roles were reversed, I think if it was a brown Muslim man who executed and assassinated three white Christian students at UNC Chapel Hill, I think not only would be calling it a hate crime, but we would be calling it an act of domestic terrorism.

I think there's a double standard in place. If a brown Muslim man had executed three white college students and said it was a parking issue, I think most Americans would laugh at that. So I think this is something very important and I'm glad that the FBI is looking into it.

BALDWIN: Let's look at this, Mark O'Mara. When we say hate crime here, we know police there are investigating. I understand and I know you wrote an opinion piece for CNN.com saying it will be a difficult to prove, and it's a high burden of proof. Tell me why.

O'MARA: Don't forget, he's going to be facing the death penalty for three counts of premeditated first-degree murder. And that crime is infused with hatred.

You don't decide to kill somebody without hatred in your heart, but what we have done in this country is we have said we will have a special category of crimes. We will add an enhancement to it if you focus on a person or group of people because of who they are, their ethnicity, their race. And it may well turn out that he did, but the evidence is going to be difficult to prove.

We almost have to show that he did the murders because they were Muslims. Now, there's no question that he had some hatred in his heart and he may well have had some bias against the Muslim community and these individuals, but in order to get to that level of hate crime which enhances the penalties, it's just a much more difficult burden.

BALDWIN: Arsalan, when you hear that, you know, let's take the hate crime element out of it and just say -- let's just say he's charged with these murders. As Mark points out, this could be a death penalty case. Will that be justice in your eyes and in eyes of the Muslim community?

IFTIKHAR: No. I think it's important to call out bias-motivated crimes for what they are.

Again, I think if Craig Hicks had executed three Jewish students, I would be here calling it a hate crime and an act of domestic terrorism. I think that no minority demographic group should be targeted based on their demographic allegiances.

Again, I think, you know, if we had Craig Hicks with some anti-Semitic postings on Facebook and then if he went and executed three Jewish college students in the head -- again, this was not just him spraying bullets and people happening to get hit in the arms and legs and dying from it. These three kids were assassinated, they were executed point blank in the head with a bullet each. I think that that cannot be underscored enough. BALDWIN: I guess my biggest question, Mark -- and I hear you, Arsalan -- and I know so many people in this community I have talked to, friends and family, they agree with you 100 percent.

But my question would be when you listen to this estranged wife of the suspect and you heard even the neighbor saying this guy was like an equal opportunist hater of so many different people and so many different religions, at the end of the day, how do investigators, Mark, crawl into the heart and the soul of this man to see if this was truly biased?

O'MARA: Well, in order -- if it's truly a hate crime, they really have a difficult time crawling into his head. What they have to do is look at his history, his social media posts, and the interviews of the neighbors are going to be quite important about it. It's going to be very difficult.

Look, this man had bias. I think and I agree that if these people were not Muslim, they might be alive today. Even the FBI director a couple of days ago said, we all have bias.

BALDWIN: That's right.

O'MARA: Even cops even have bias.

We have to look at this. It was a bias crime. But a hate crime is sort of the penultimate bias crime. We have to deal with -- I like the idea of having a conversation about those subtle biases, whether it's young black males or now in this case Muslim students. We have to look at it and say it's those subtle biases that are causing us the devastation to our communities.

The hate crimes are easy to see and they're easy to punish. We have to start focusing on the more subtle biases that affect us every day.

BALDWIN: Senseless. Arsalan Iftikhar, thank you so much. Mark O'Mara, I appreciate you as well for coming on here.

IFTIKHAR: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the parents of an American beheaded by ISIS share their story with CNN. James Foley's mother and father say the American policy on hostages is failing and you will hear directly from them next about their biggest regret.

Plus, another Brian Williams story now being questioned. He said a Navy SEAL sent him something from the Osama bin Laden raid in Pakistan. We will talk to a Navy SEAL to weigh in on just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: ISIS beheaded their beloved son, American journalist James Foley. And for his parents, the anguish and the tragic loss of their first-born child also triggered an urgent need to make noise, lots of noise. Looking back, Foley's parents dearly wish they had gone public while

ISIS held their son captive in Syria for nearly two years. Diane and James (sic) Foley tell CNN U.S. hostage policy is failing and that the U.S. government must be willing to negotiate with ISIS to save U.S. hostages.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FOLEY, FATHER OF JAMES FOLEY: We were too quiet. We followed a policy of secrecy initially, at the request of the captors and our government. Eventually, we heard nothing and we became frantic and went public.

DIANE FOLEY, MOTHER OF JAMES FOLEY: What became apparent to us, that our government knew where they were by December of 2013, even perhaps earlier.

QUESTION: So why didn't they try sooner?

D. FOLEY: Oh, I think there are multiple reasons. I certainly don't know all the reasons. I guess that's part of -- it appears to me that the American policy is failing, though. Now five young Americans in the last six months have died, whereas their 10 counterparts in Europe were all home.

J. FOLEY: I think that the European nations were willing to negotiate. I think money did change hands.

I'm not sure where it came from. But I know there was an intense negotiation involved. My own opinion, John Foley's only, is that I think rescue was delayed because the European nations or military intervention was delayed because European nations were actually negotiating.

D. FOLEY: Had the world known that 18 journalists and aid workers were held together, I think in their most hopeful moments the captives really envisioned a coalition of governments working together and really trying to get them out, and nothing could have been further from the truth.

Everyone was kind of doing their own thing. There was very little collaboration. We can do better. I just know we can do better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What a candid interview this morning on "NEW DAY."

David Rohde is with me, journalist David Rohde.

You were kidnapped by the Taliban back in 2008 in Afghanistan, managed to escape months later.

Always great to have you on, David.

And let me just begin with the fact that if the Foley -- the parents of James Foley were saying basically if they had been louder and more active, my question to you is do you think that would have put their son at greater risk?

DAVID ROHDE, FORMER TALIBAN PRISONER: Well, and I should first admit, near the end of the case, I was advising the Foleys and trying to help them in what to do, so maybe I didn't -- we all failed them, in short, including myself.

I don't think they made a mistake. I think that these cases only end when there's payments of very large -- in this case multimillion- dollar ransoms by European governments. They were quiet in the beginning and they were public in the end.

If they had gone public, would it have prompted the United States government to change its policy and pay a multimillion-dollar ransom? To be honest, no, I don't think so. Public opinion shows that most Americans oppose the U.S. government paying ransoms still, despite the deaths of five Americans now in Syria.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Do you -- if we may just sort of lift the veil, if you were helping them in the end there, were they vocal with you even in the end? Were they realizing even then they should have maybe pounded their fists a little louder?

ROHDE: They have talked about this earlier. What they started to do was to try to raise money.

And what was confusing in the beginning was that they were believing that there was a coordinated effort from the U.S. and European government. That didn't happen. The Europeans paid separate ransoms for the Europeans and there was no effort to help the Americans.

And the broader problem here is information to these families. The Foleys don't know what happened. They're talking about they think they know and the U.S. government, you know, knew where everyone was being held. They should know these facts, particularly now that Jim is gone.

And then during these cases, families should be given security clearances by the U.S. government. It happens for all U.S. government employees. It takes a few months. Jim and -- John and Diane are not going to say anything that is going to endanger -- or leak any information that will endanger their son. You know, families should learn classified information.

BALDWIN: Streamlined, getting the information. I was talking to Austin Tice's parents just the other day, and they were saying the same thing, that it's like they're -- they're having to talk to Syria directly.