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American Sniper Trial; Battle Against ISIS; Paying Ransoms

Aired February 17, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Now we continue on to the top of the next hour here. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

We have to begin with these new developments on these two terror attacks in Paris that left 17 people dead last month. We're getting this from a report from this French newspaper "Le Monde" indicating that these attacks were indeed coordinated.

Sources tell "Le Monde" that one of the Kouachi brothers behind the massacre at the "Charlie Hebdo" offices was indeed in communication with the gunman who took over, took the hostages, took lives at the kosher grocery. Sources say a text from Cherif Kouachi's phone went to one of the 13 cell phones used by Amedy Coulibaly.

Coulibaly was the one who shot and killed four Jewish people inside the grocery after, I as mentioned, taking hostages.

I have got CNN's Deborah Feyerick with me to parse through some of this new information from "Le Monde."

Begin with when was this text exchange between these two men?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

When you talk about the word coordinated, it was coordinated really by the two friends who agreed that they were going to carry out the attack at the same time. The text you're talking about is the first physical evidence that Cherif Kouachi and Amedy Coulibaly were in touch an hour before the Kouachi brothers attacked that magazine "Charlie Hebdo" and massacred those people.

Now, Cherif Kouachi sent the text to Amedy Coulibaly to one of 13 phones, as you mentioned, 13 phones the he was using to communicate with the brothers and with others. The text was sent to that phone and it appears also that the two friends met some time between midnight and 1:00 the morning before the attack.

So what they discussed unclear right now, but an investigator is telling "Le Monde" newspaper that in fact they were in communication not just in the early morning hours, but also just an hour before the attack and it appears that the older brother, Said Kouachi, had some sort of a stomach flu and there may have even been consideration that the attack would be delayed until a later time.

BALDWIN: Do we have any idea where these multiple 13 phones would have come from? The one phone that was specifically assigned to him for this text exchange with the Kouachi brothers? They having to digging on that.

FEYERICK: There's no question about that. That is what is very clear, that in fact these two men had a plan.

They had put everything in place to execute that plan, so even though we heard al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula claim credit for the Kouachi brothers attack on the magazine, Coulibaly was working on behalf of ISIS. Again, two terror groups, they have got the same end goal. They share the same ideology. However, it looks like the friends were the ones who were bringing the two groups together as opposed to these two groups communicating with each other at higher levels.

BALDWIN: And that there were concerns that because of the older brother's stomach flu that the massacre at the magazine might not have happened.

FEYERICK: You have to wonder whether in fact they decided to simply go ahead because the momentum was such that it made more sense to just keep going regardless of how the older brother was feeling just to make sure that they didn't sort of delay or that they didn't chicken out and decide not to do it, so all of that under investigation.

BALDWIN: Unfortunately, they didn't. Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much for that.

Right now, nations across North Africa, they are scrambling as a frightening realization has taken hold. ISIS is not just gaining territory more terribly. They are doing it much, much faster than anyone anticipated here. Now in the crosshairs, Libya, Libya, a failed state, fertile ground for ISIS to extend its reach and now we're seeing proof of those gains.

ISIS moving from the barren hills of Syria and Iraq to this beach on the Mediterranean coastline, savagely killing these 21 Egyptian Christians just about to kneel in those orange jumpsuits here. This is ISIS' stronghold in Libya. It's the city of Derna right there on the Mediterranean Sea. It's quickly shaping up to be the new front line, as it were, in this war, just about 200 miles from the European coast.

It's a place where ISIS is strengthening each and every day, taking over government buildings and apparently even taking over a radio station. Egypt, just next door, Egypt is hitting them back, dropping bombs on what we know now are training camps and storage facilities.

Joining me now, CNN contributor Tim Lister, who is in Irbil, Iraq.

And, Tim Lister, by extending into Africa here, not just Syria and Iraq, I mean, are these militants taking the land on their behalf? Or is it indicative of a group spreading very, very quickly?

TIM LISTER, CNN PRODUCER: Oh, this is very much a group spreading very, very quickly. It's not would-be, wannabe jihadists in Libya trying (AUDIO GAP) we

know that, in fact, a lot of Libyan ISIS fighters who were in Syria, perhaps as many as 300, returned to Libya, to this part of Libya, late last year. And it's thought that now ISIS has at least 800 men under its command in this part of Libya.

What's striking about this latest video that came out, the appalling murder of these Egyptians, is this was not Derna. This was a Sirte, a long way from Derna. This is central Libya. It shows that their reach has extended well beyond that little pocket in Eastern Libya. And even they have started attacking Libyan army outposts in the south down in the desert. Libya is a country with many porous borders. It's very vulnerable to this sort of infiltration and where there's no central power, ISIS can set up pretty much as it wants.

BALDWIN: Let's jump on that. In this post-Moammar Gadhafi era of Libya, without a true stable government, this is the perfect power vacuum militancy such as ISIS to take hold. And I have to imagine there are other countries we're are looking at the map -- in which they're hoping to capitalize on that.

LISTER: Oh, definitely there are. We have seen in the past there's nothing that al Qaeda or ISIS likes more than a power vacuum. We have seen it in Yemen. We have seen it in Mali.

And now the Tunisians next door to Libya are very vulnerable. They have their own homegrown jihadist movement that they're trying to tackle. But you're talking about borders that are largely desert, hundreds and hundreds of miles long, very easy to pass through.

Remember another thing. When Gadhafi fell, there was a sea of weaponry that fell into the hands of different groups, sophisticated weaponry, quite advanced and seriously heavy-duty weaponry. So that is available too. And we know that some al Qaeda and other associated groups already got their fair share of the weaponry. It's not a great concoction in North Africa. The Tunisians, we know, are extremely worried about developments next door, as indeed are the Egyptians.

They had a border post attacked in the last six months in which some 20 soldiers were killed. That was put down to ISIS as well.

BALDWIN: When we talk about ISIS, we know this leader is Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, who once upon a time was at Camp Bucca. He is the leader. But my question to you, Tim, is this. Is the one who entirely dictated the who, what, when, where and why or are there smaller groups within ISIS who are helping move the land grabs, who are working separately?

LISTER: ISIS is a very interesting organization, because operationally it's very devolved and they allow local commanders to get on with the job.

But the philosophy, the world vision, if you like, comes very much from the top. And it's Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi who declared the three provinces to be part of ISIS territory, part of the caliphate. He has also declared a province in Pakistan and Afghanistan. He has declared a province in Sinai, in Egypt, and the group there just today distributed photographs of their fighters quite openly and brazenly traveling the highways of that part of the world and giving away gifts to children.

This is in a highly militarized society where the government is apparently powerless to deal with this group now called Sinai province, very much part of ISIS.

BALDWIN: Tim Lister, thank you.

Coming up, it is a hotly debated issue, especially during this war against ISIS. Should countries pay ransom for hostages? It's that issue is now causing rifts perhaps between the United States and its allies. We will explore that.

Plus, one of the people on al Qaeda's most wanted list is about to join me live on why he refuses to go into hiding.

And we're now seeing the video confession by the alleged killer of American sniper Chris Kyle. Hear why lawyers may use a self-defense argument.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The murder of U.S. hostages at the hands of ISIS militants has raised an important question that the United States and its allies can't exactly seem to agree on, that being ransom. Should countries pay ransoms to free hostages held by terrorists?

Just after a young aid worker from Prescott, Arizona, Kayla Mueller, died in ISIS captivity, President Obama said the U.S. uses all the resources it can to get its hostages released, all except for this one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The one thing that we have held to is a policy of not paying ransoms with an organization like ISIL.

And the reason is, is that once we start doing that, not only are we financing their slaughter of innocent people and strengthening their organization, but we're actually making Americans even greater targets for future kidnappings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is with me.

Jim, we know the deal. We know the U.S. does not pay ransoms, but when you look at some of our good, good friends, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, they sometimes will. How is that affecting relations? JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, there

are really frank discussions. I spoke with a senior British diplomat and the U.K. is in lockstep with the U.S. on this, that they consider paying ransoms a form of terror financing.

It would be like if you or I wrote a check to ISIS just to support them. They consider them equivalent legally. And the senior British diplomat told me that there were frank discussions and frank disagreements within the allies, with the U.K., say, telling France you can't do that. You're actually making it worse.

And when you look at it, we talk a lot about how much money ISIS makes from oil and that's been a big target of the U.S.-led air campaign, bombing their oil depots. It's estimated ISIS has made $40 million just from ransoms alone. Imagine what that group can do with $40 million and at the price per head for Western hostages with groups like ISIS and al Qaeda is up to $5 million or $6 million per person.

That's driven in part because there's a market for it, right, because someone is willing to buy, in effect. They're willing to pay those ransoms. It's a real problem.

BALDWIN: But isn't ISIS taking people, taking hostage regardless of whether the country pays or doesn't pay ransom? I go back to hearing James Foley's parents sitting on our sofa here at CNN just a couple of days ago and they said shouldn't the U.S. do anything and everything to save them? Do they have a point?

SCIUTTO: Listen, if you or I were in that situation, if someone we loved, God knows...

BALDWIN: You would do anything you could.

LISTER: We would be doing anything we could. One of my kids involved, for sure.

But here's the thing. By doing it -- and, yes, it's true, ISIS would take hostages no matter and so might al Qaeda. The thing is, money increases the value to them. So they want them more and they become dependent on it.

And keep in mind, it's not just Western hostages. They are taking Iraqis and Syrians and al Qaeda is taking Pakistanis hostage and they have been doing this for years. And in those cases, it might be just $10,000 or $20,000 or $30,000, but it's how they survive. It's like a drug dealer. Right?

If you keep buying the drugs, that's how they stay in business and it drives up the price. So, listen, any of us put into that situation individually, God knows what we would do. We would want to do anything. The trouble is, from a big-picture perspective, it makes it more likely.

And I'll tell you, Brooke, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan during a time when other groups like al Qaeda in Iraq and al Qaeda, core al Qaeda were charging ransoms and my feeling was, listen, I would want to get out any way possible, but I was also angry at the countries who paid the ransoms, because I felt that it made it more likely that I would be taken.

Of course, Americans are already targets, but you become more of a target when you have got a $10 million price tag on your head. And that's the point that the president and this British diplomat and others make when they -- and they have clearly a severe disagreement even with their closest allies.

BALDWIN: It's so incredibly complicated, but it's like when you hear these parents talk about wanting to do anything that you possibly can, you can't help but think so would I. Jim Sciutto, thank you.

LISTER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, the gunman's target in Denmark might have been an artist who is known for depicting the Prophet Mohammed. He's on al Qaeda's most wanted list. Next, we will talk to a different journalist who is on that same list. And he will tell me why, despite all of this, he refuses to go under. He to hide.

Also ahead, the man accused of killing sniper Chris Kyle confessed on tape. We will tell you exactly what he said and how the prosecution and defense could use that to support each of their cases. You're watching CNN. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A controversial artist says he thinks he was the target of a shooting in Denmark over the weekend. He is Lars Vilks. He is known for his depictions of the Prophet Mohammed, including one in which he drew Mohammed's head on a dog.

Vilks was at this free speech forum when this gunman walked in, opened fire. He wasn't hurt. This artist wasn't hurt. But knows he is a constant target since he was listed as one of al Qaeda's most wanted.

Nic Robertson has more on that list.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the spring of 2013, al Qaeda released the list of 11 people it wanted dead or alive for committing so-called crimes against Islam.

Three people on the list have connections to "Jyllands-Posten" newspaper here in Denmark, the periodical that first published the cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed in 2005, sparking mass protests in Europe and the Middle East.

Carsten Juste was the "Jyllands-Posten"'s editor in chief. And Flemming Rose was its cultural editor at the time. In 2010, a man affiliated with the terrorist group Al-Shabab broke into Kurt Westergaard's home in an attempt to attack him, according to police. Westergaard drew one of the images of the Prophet Mohammed. Two other cartoonists on the list were targeted in 2015. Gunmen in

Copenhagen attacked a meeting of Lars Vilks and his supporters, killing at least one man and wounding three police officers. In 2007, Vilks drew a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a body of a dog, an animal that conservative Muslims consider unclear.

Stephane Charbonnier, an editor of the French weekly "Charlie Hebdo," was one of several people killed in an attack at the magazine's office in January 2015. "Charlie Hebdo" often portrays crude depictions of notable figures, including the Prophet Mohammed. At the suggestion of the FBI, Molly Norris has been in hiding since 2010 after proposing Everybody Draw Prophet Mohammed Day.

She received a handful of death threats. Perhaps the two most well- known people on the list to American audiences are Salman Rushdie and Terry Jones. Terry Jones, a Florida pastor, gained notoriety for planning Burn a Koran Day on September 11, 2010. Conservative Muslims say that Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" is blasphemous and mocks their religion.

Iran's first supreme leader issued a fatwa calling for Rushdie's death in 1989. The two Dutch politicians on the list are Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders. Ali is a Somali and is a former member of the Dutch parliament and an outspoken critic of Islam. Wilders is the leader of the far-right Dutch political party and has come under fire for comparing Islam to Nazism.

Morris Sadek is an Egypt Coptic Christian and an anti-Islam activist. He was connected to the controversial and crudely made video "The Innocence of Muslims."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

Living your life as a target on al Qaeda's hit list is something -- as we just heard from Nic, this is something the culture editor Flemming Rose knows well. He has been living under police guard ever since publishing those cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed back in 2005. Branded by some local media as the Danish devil, Rose has written extensively on his experiences in the book called "The Tyranny of Silence."

And Flemming joins me now live from Denmark.

Sir, welcome, and I have to ask, since you have been on this al Qaeda hit list and to read some of the names that are associated with you are some names of artists and cartoonists who are no longer with us. Tell me why you choose to join me to talk about this. Why not hide?

FLEMMING ROSE, CULTURE EDITOR, "JYLLANDS-POSTEN": Well, because I'm trying to do my job.

I mean, I published a book where I tried to lay out not only the cartoon case, but related issues about what freedom of expression means in a liberal democracy in a globalized world and how the concept of religious tolerance came about in Europe.

And there's a lot of confusion. It seems that many people sincerely believe that the more multicultural the world gets, the less freedom of expression we need. But I think it has to be the other way around. The more we work on diversity in terms of cultural ethnicity and religion, we have to accept that also more diverse ways of expressing ourselves will follow.

And this is a battle of ideas that, you know, I have engaged in for the past nine years. And I think it's very important. It's about the future of the society I live in. But it's also issues that are high on the agenda in most countries in the world where identity politics becomes, you know, the way many that groups choose to pursue.

So they focus more on what makes us different, instead of focusing on our shared humanity. We have, in fact, far more in common as far as human beings and individuals than divides us.

BALDWIN: As such a staunch supporter of these freedoms, what is your life like, though, day-to-day with security?

ROSE: I mean, I said to myself a long time ago that I'm not going to give in. And if you let these things disturb your life, you will hand a victory to those who are trying to intimidate you, and I'm just very focused on not letting that happen.

BALDWIN: You, I know, Flemming, went to the grave site of the cartoonist Georges Wolinski just last week in Paris, one of the victims from the horrific "Charlie Hebdo" killings and you believe that there could be more attacks in the future. So just knowing that, will you continue to publish these cartoons knowing it puts your colleagues in danger?

ROSE: We -- my newspaper do not publish Mohammed cartoons anymore.

And we said very clearly that we're not doing it because we feel that we need to protect our employees. And we said very clearly we're not doing it because we want to be nice and we don't think that -- and we think that people should refrain from offending religious sensibilities. We're not doing it because we are afraid.

And then we had to have a debate, do we want to live in a free society or in a fear society? I personally would like to live in a free society, not in a fear society. But, unfortunately, the mechanisms of a fear society are starting to take hold.

People are self-censoring themselves. And instead of being honest about it, that it's fear that is driving this issue, because it's not very heroic for an editor to say that he is afraid, we're trying to come up with all kinds of other explanations. We know what the cartoons look like. Why offend gratuitously, while, in fact, we are -- I'm offended every day when I turn on my TV.