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Interview With Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings; Protests in Baltimore. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired April 28, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:24]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we are live here in the city Baltimore, where right now on the streets you do have a number -- let's be clear -- a number of peaceful protests standing in front of police who are prepared for those who are not quite as peaceful. We have seen some instances of that pop up just in the last hour or so, trying to quell any potential eruption of criminality or violence.

But all of this, of course, comes not even a day after the riots, the looting in the streets here, setting fires to local businesses, a CVS, beauty shops, liquor stores. It was a mess, a violent, violent reaction to in the wake now the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, who somehow suffered that severed spinal cord injury in police custody.

Still so many questions remain there. We know all the information gets turned over to the state's attorney's office just in a couple of days on Friday. But today here in the city, protesters, they have been on the streets, as we mentioned, more or less peacefully. They want justice, they want justice for Freddie Gray.

But then I mentioned that other element. Let me play this for you in case you're just joining us, this other element involving our colleague here Ryan Young in West Baltimore just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Back again. He has decided that he wants to throw something at officers. The officers are moving in. He's going to be arrested. Here we go. There we go. One person -- one person -- one person has turned the entire quiet area.

We are being sprayed with mace. We are being sprayed with pepper spray. So, this calm thing has turned over quickly. I got just sprayed back in my face. The cops will be able to do this. The man is back again. He's decided that he wants to throw something at officers. The officers are moving in. He's now going to be arrested. Here we go. Here we go.

One person, one person, one person, one person has turned this entire quiet area. We are being sprayed with mace. We are being sprayed with pepper spray. So this calm thing has turned over very quickly. I just got sprayed back in my face. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was Ryan Young from about an hour ago. You know, yes, he was pepper sprayed, but let's be clear, the story was this one element amidst all these peaceful protesters in a line of officers.

In fact, he talked to some of the peaceful protesters, some of the older gentlemen from these communities forming what they self- described a love line, trying to keep the peace between some of the maybe more criminal element and police.

The calm, it was fractured. It happened very, very quickly. That can absolutely attorney a dime, though other than that one example we can give you so far, there have been no other signs of major unrest here in the city today. Police did just tell reporters that they are using all the resources they can to anticipate this, to stop, prevent any further violence, including possibly calling in as many as 10,000 backup forces here in the city of Baltimore.

The violence, though, began as I was live talking to you right around this time yesterday. The mayor's office has some numbers -- let me just run through some of this just for perspective -- 235 people thus far have been arrested. Some 140 cars have been burned, 19 buildings around the city torched.

[15:05:08]

We have now heard directly from the president of the United States now as it pertains to the situation here in Baltimore, this crisis. He said he prayed for Freddie Gray's family and the officers. We heard from the police captain here just a little while ago saying at least one of his own -- 20 of his own officers were injured during the looting and the riots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The violence that happened yesterday distracted from the fact that you had seen multiple days of peaceful protests that were focused on entirely legitimate concerns of these communities in Baltimore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I have got two of my colleagues. You saw them a moment ago, Ryan Young and also Miguel Marquez with us as well covering all of this.

So, Miguel, let me go to you first actually. Tell me exactly where you are and what you're seeing.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're just about at the same place that Ryan was earlier.

This is North Avenue and Pennsylvania avenue. This is the worst of the worst. The CVS is right behind me. But I want to show you this. This is the phalanx of police officers here and you see heavy -- police officers in heavy riot gear right behind them. Just a street down is Mount Street and that is where Freddie Gray was arrested, a few blocks from there.

Then it is where he was taken to Western District police office. This is the level of a protest today. The individuals out here who have been cleaning this neighborhood all day are turning their backs to the police, creating a phalanx against the police themselves. It's all about love.

I want to talk to this young man, who I have seen you out here since the very beginning. You were friends with Freddie. I saw you at the protest on Saturday standing between the protesters and the police, telling the protesters, just calm down. What are you urging today?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, I just would like -- wanted to speak out and say that the family, on behalf of the family and the Gilmor Homes neighborhood, man, none of us had anything to do with that. It's like people took advantage of it. They were trying to say it was for Freddie and rioting.

And I feel like people just were doing it to steal for their own personal needs. They did it in our own neighborhood. Come on, man.

MARQUEZ: How hard was it to see things descend the way they did yesterday?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very hard, because my aunt specifically told me to go out and tell people that we was going to meet up again Tuesday and have another peaceful protest.

That's what we're promoting. We don't want violence, man, We want the officers to be brought up on charges. The more violence we create in the city, that is more leeway for them, like, not look at that case.

MARQUEZ: Do you think the worst is over, or are you fearful that there may be more?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. On behalf here, I'm here today. I think the worst is over. I think we have got it under control today. I think the worst is over.

MARQUEZ: Well, hopefully, there's more peacemakers like you, hopefully. Good to see you.

The mood has changed here significantly. I was right down here yesterday when they popped holes in the fire hose as the firefighters were trying to fight the fires just behind them. Now the city has taken on a new sense entirely, cleaning up this area across hundreds, if not thousands of volunteers cleaning up the area, and then this, turning their backs on police, and trying to spread love and get out from under what has happened.

Still very, very tense. Things can kick off very quickly, but for now, the lid is on -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's hope, let's hope this shift in momentum remains, right, remains for the foreseeable future.

Let me second what you just said, Miguel. I was so incredibly impressed. I was right around where you were a couple of hours ago. I saw all kinds of people from the communities, both there and also children, children with trash bags trying to clean up this part of Baltimore.

Miguel Marquez, thank you so much.

Ryan Young, I believe we have you as well. Ryan, are you with me?

YOUNG: I'm definitely with you.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Ryan, tell me where are you and how it is.

(CROSSTALK)

YOUNG: -- since 11:00 today. We are in the crowd. We have been here since about 11:00.

You can see the CVS across the street. We're on North Ave. You can see the protesters who are still here talking amongst themselves. One of the thing you mentioned before is the fact that people showed up here with their families. If you look this direction, you can see this gentleman here who has brought his son. There's a lot of people who are walking here and they said they wanted their children to see what was going here, because they think this is the beginning of a revolution.

They want to see change in the community. We have been talking to people throughout the neighborhood, just asking them, look, when you saw what happened today, just how peaceful it was in the beginning, and then you saw a young man throw something, how did it make you feel when you saw him throw that toward the police?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It broke my heart, because he was standing right next to me, because we were communicating, and because he had some really, really excellent points on why he was angry. He was angry because he felt like there were no opportunities.

[15:10:01]

He was angry because he felt like there was no great education. And these are things he said to me. There wasn't an opportunity to get a great education here. He was saying those things, and he was angry because we hadn't got any answers as to what happened to Freddie Gray. He's upset about those things and he wanted to voice those things. And he felt like nobody is listening. He said enough is enough. And he had enough.

YOUNG: I saw some of the women in the crowd start crying when he made that decision. What clicked with everybody about that young man in particular when he made the decision? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we saw him approached the first time.

This was the second or third time we had actually talked him down. He was so angry. And he was trying, he was trying to calm himself. And it just couldn't happen. He had other angry friends around him too who were dealing.

But he had some legitimate gripes. It wasn't like he was just angry for no reason.

YOUNG: And we're talking to Brooke now. And just as you describe the crowd, can you describe the first three hours of this protest?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was beautiful. It was peaceful. We had drumming circles, we had people who were singing together. It was the type -- it was a peaceful protest. This is what people usually don't see on TV. It's what's missing from everybody's eyes, because all that you see is the violence.

And it changes the conversation. Then it turns into violent Baltimore, instead of the real conversation, which is what happened to this young man and why don't we know yet?

YOUNG: How much will you challenge the young people in this community not to allow it to shift again?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I challenge them. I challenge them to find their voice. I challenge them to find a way to effectively deliver the things that they want people to hear. I challenge them to understand, know, believe, and live up to the greatness that is within them. I challenge them because they are great.

They can be and do anything they want to. And I want all the -- I challenge the adults in the community to remind them that they are great and they can be whatever they want and to lead by example. I challenge everybody in this community to be their own hero. Be the change that they want to see.

YOUNG: Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

YOUNG: And as we were talking, there's actually a gentleman walking around with a huge trash bag who is picking, literally picking up trash off the street.

One of the things they wanted to talk about is, they wanted to make sure this had a renewed sense, yes, that we burned down buildings. Yes, a CVS was destroyed. But people wanted to see action today, change within the community. And we have seen kids out here walking around actually picking up trash and using brooms. That's really the message that a lot of people wanted to focus on.

It's unfortunate that one young man really tipped the scales for just about 30 minutes, as we had to run for cover ourselves. But the whole plan, the whole idea here, people were shedding tears because they wanted to make sure that this conversation didn't change again -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, no, they want to make sure that what's happening there is 100 percent peaceful. Ryan Young, thank you very much.

Just as I have been listening to Ryan here, guys, take the other camera, because I just want to show the viewers at here lay of the land. They're just a couple miles from where I am. I'm in front of City Hall. We have zoomed in on a shot where City Hall is, you know, cordoned off. There's a little bit of a news conference happened. I don't know if you can hear an applause.

That's happening next to me. But you see these different members of law enforcement. We're trying to ask around, trying to figure out if this is just a matter of protocol, readying for what could be in a matter of hours. Again, that curfew here in the city of Baltimore goes into effect today for the rest of the week starting at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. So, we're going to keep one eye on that.

But I have got one eye here on the city councilman here, Carl Stokes, who is back with me.

It's wonderful to see you again.

CARL STOKES, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Good to see you again, Brooke. I wish you guys would leave, though, but --

BALDWIN: I would love to leave. I would love to not be talking about fire and looting and some injustices that people are furious about.

STOKES: Sure.

BALDWIN: But let's just begin with, the last time we spoke, you were pretty critical of the mayor. And we know from Saturday where you saw it was the beginning of that criminality here in Baltimore.

STOKES: Sure. Absolutely.

BALDWIN: And there has been criticism toward both the governor and toward the mayor that why wasn't a state of emergency declared then? It's easy to Monday-morning quarterback or Tuesday in this case.

STOKES: Sure. Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Do you think it should have been? Do you think any of what we saw last night could have been prevented?

STOKES: Right. I think we are actually not Monday-morning quarterbacking.

A week ago when I was with you, we talked about the fact that I did not think and others did not think that the city was stepping up strong enough, fast enough to make sure that there would be calm and that the protesters and the demonstrators would be heard, that their voices would be heard.

We still don't know, we have no admittance from the police department or from City Hall of what happened that fateful day for Freddie. We know that Freddie was killed out there in the hands of the police department. We know that he was shackled at the feet and handcuffed by the hands and thrown in the back of a police wagon, unrestrained to be thrown around in there.

You know, the fact that there's so many police here surrounding City Hall is a clear picture as any that we're afraid.

BALDWIN: What does this say that we just saw all -- we're talking armed up, shields, batons right now, broad daylight?

STOKES: Right. Right. If City Hall needs to be protected, that's as clear a picture as any that leadership is disconnected from the community. There's no reason to protect City Hall.

[15:15:09]

BALDWIN: Here's the issue. And I was on TV right around this time yesterday, when it began.

There was a phenomenal piece in "The Baltimore Sun" this morning by Justin Fenton, who sort of began piecing it together, how sort of the explosion began. And it began with these young people, and apparently this was planned, and we saw it play out. Athena Jones was the correspondent I was talking to yesterday.

STOKES: Right.

BALDWIN: And it was bottles, and bricks, and then officers started to get injured. And it grew and it grew and it grew.

STOKES: Right.

BALDWIN: Have you talked to these young people? Do they realize that by burning down local businesses, they're taking away from the community, and that takes away from the sense of seeking justice?

STOKES: Not totally. There are a number of young people who are disconnected, who don't feel respected. So they don't know respect. They don't know love in the best way. They don't know taking care of the city and taking care of each other. They don't realize that.

BALDWIN: Whose fault is that?

STOKES: Well, it's our fault. It's my generation and those who are just below my generation who have not engaged enough with these young people, who have not put enough money into education, enough money into recreation and programs for young people. It's our fault. And we are getting, we're reaping what we have sown.

But, again, it's only a few hundred people, few hundred, even only a few hundred young people. I would say that most of the kids from high schools and middle schools in our city do know and are much better and in fact are very much a part of the community and support it. Today's pictures are the real Baltimore, not last night's pictures. Today's pictures of young people, older people, in between, black, white, out there, brown, out there on the streets cleaning up immediately after yesterday, with no fear, with no fear.

BALDWIN: Final question. Couple hours away from the sun coming down. Are you confident that that sort of send of peace and momentum, that positive shift will remain?

STOKES: I am. I am, not to say that there won't be a few people, and I think it's a very few people tonight, because the community is not going to be intimidated. More and more average citizens themselves are taking the street and said, you're not going to do this to my neighborhood, not on my block.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Carl, thank you very much, Carl Stokes, city councilman here in the city of Baltimore.

(CROSSTALK)

STOKES: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here on CNN, Congressman Elijah Cummings will join me live. We will get his thoughts from the heart as far as what's happening here in his district.

Also, we are learning about a highly unusual move involving the Baltimore Orioles closing their game here at Camden Yards to the public, yet they still plan to play. We will talk to Rachel Nichols about that.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. I'm Brooke Baldwin live in the city of Baltimore.

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[15:22:14]

BALDWIN: All right, welcome back. You're watching breaking news here, live special coverage in the city of Baltimore. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And I just want to get to this man next to me, Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings, who represents this district. This is his home.

Welcome, sir. It's a pleasure to talk to you.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: Welcome to Baltimore.

BALDWIN: I love Baltimore. I have been here a number of times.

First of all, did you just hear that the Orioles game is apparently on, but closed to the public is the latest we're hearing? Do you know about that? CUMMINGS: I don't know anything about that. But that would be very

disappointing to me because I want our city to go forward. I don't think that we should stop doing what we normally do. But that's a decision of the powers that be. That's above my paycheck.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's talk about your pay -- let's talk what is happening currently here.

I don't know if you have slept at all?

CUMMINGS: Not. No. No.

BALDWIN: Have you been in contact with the mayor, and the governor, and as far as tonight is the first night of this 10:00 p.m. curfew? We have seen pockets of people especially in West Baltimore right at North and Pennsylvania for the most part peaceful. Have you had the chance to walk around? Where have you been today?

CUMMINGS: I have been all over.

But I spent a lot of time at Pennsylvania and North, where the CVS was.

(CROSSTALK)

CUMMINGS: And I got to tell you, when I went and saw the burnt-out CVS, it was extremely painful, because I realize that a lot of people are in pain.

And we have a situation here where some people who were mourning the death of Freddie Gray, the tragic death, but there are others who were opportunists who took advantage of a situation and committed some criminal acts. I don't care how you look at it. That's what happened.

And I think about the senior citizens who now don't have a drugstore. They have been calling me all day.

BALDWIN: They have lost their jobs. That's the disconnect, with it sounds like this group of younger people who started this, perhaps not realizing the ramifications.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

BALDWIN: I was reading -- I have just read so much about what -- I don't know if it's generational shifts, could the older folks in the city are saying, everyone wants justice, but it's like this manifestation of how they're seeking it is so totally at odds.

CUMMINGS: Yes. Yes.

Well, I do believe that young people and not so young see this Freddie Gray case, and it's extremely upsetting, because there are so many question marks. When you have a police force that writes a report that says Mr. Gray was arrested without force or without incident, and his neck is broken, his throat is crushed, and his spinal cord is severed, and then he dies, it's hard for people to put that together.

[15:25:05]

CUMMINGS: And so you have confusion, you have pain, you have frustration. And the foundation of all of that is the deaths of all the black men who are unarmed throughout the country.

BALDWIN: And that's the thing. I was talking to an editor with "The New Republic," Jamil Smith, and he wrote a whole piece about how week after week after week, we keep seeing these videos, right, of these young black men being killed.

CUMMINGS: Right.

BALDWIN: And his fear is that Americans are becoming desensitized. He wants to make sure that after single time we see these tragedies, that we stop.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

BALDWIN: And you, being a congressman, we have this national conversation, but then people such as yourself make sure there is actual change. Where is the change?

CUMMINGS: That's right. That's right.

BALDWIN: I'm sick of talking about --

(CROSSTALK)

CUMMINGS: Well, I agree. I'm sick of talking about it, too.

And that's why just a week ago at Howard University, Republicans and Democrats joined together from the Senate and the House and began to talk about the various types of legislation we are proposing.

BALDWIN: Like what?

CUMMINGS: Like the Camera Act, making sure that the police have cameras, making sure that we have good statistics with regard to the deaths that come to individuals while arrested or in the custody of police, looking at our grand jury system, and looking at the whole issue of sentencing.

One of the reasons why people are so angry, I know of people who are sitting in prison right now for selling marijuana, when you can go to Colorado, and they sell thousands of dollars worth.

BALDWIN: I had that conversation on my show, sir, last week, where people are furious. And then the question comes, once it perhaps even becomes legalization, why -- what about all these people who are serving time for selling an ounce?

CUMMINGS: That's exactly right.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: I understand.

CUMMINGS: When people see that, it's very upsetting.

Their freedom is gone, while folks in Colorado sit back with cash all over the television.

BALDWIN: I understand. Making a lot of money. I understand.

CUMMINGS: My point is, is that we have got work to do.

Another thing that has to be done here is we have really got to look at our police department.

BALDWIN: In what sense? We talk about training, we talk about having officers -- I was talking to a city councilman last week who was saying, Brooke, these people have to live in the communities. There's no emotional -- and there's a lack of emotional investment.

And a lot of these young people I have been talking about this so much -- a lot of these young people -- and I love our nation's veterans, but some of them are coming back from war, they don't know the communities, and they're ready to do battle.

CUMMINGS: Yes. They definitely need training, better training. They need better recruitment.

And that's why I have been asking our DOJ to come in and do a pattern and practice investigation, somewhat similar to the one that was done in Ferguson. We really need to look at our police department from top to bottom and bottom to top to figure out exactly what is being done wrong.

Keep in mind, some of these problems are systemic. We have rules, but when the rules are broken, for example, not seat belting in a man who you have arrested --

BALDWIN: In a prisoner transport van, right.

CUMMINGS: Right, or not giving medical attention, there are rules already to that. So, that makes you wonder, well, how is the system failing? We have got work to do.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Congressman, I hope I don't have to talk to you any time soon over this. But I wish you luck hopefully enacting some of the change, because people are obviously incredibly frustrated.

Thank you so much.

CUMMINGS: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here on CNN, much more on this, as we were referencing at the top of this interview, this unusual move. I'm trying to understand exactly what's happening here in the city with the Baltimore Orioles apparently closing their game tomorrow to the public, yet they still plan to play.

We will talk to CNN Sports' Rachel Nichols, who will join me for more on that, explaining how that will work, next.

You're watching CNN.

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