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Prison Workers Pout on Leave; Fugitives Practiced Escape; Manhunt in Beach Attack; July 4th Attack Warning; Mexico Pulls Miss Universe Contestant. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 30, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:03] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much.

Hello, everyone, I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.

The manhunt may be over but the fallout from the prison break that brought upstate New York to its knees is only just beginning. We now have some breaking news that captured fugitive David Sweat tells police that he and Richard Matt did indeed do a dry run the night before they tunneled their way out of that Clinton Correctional Facility. This news comes to us after word that 12 people, including three executives in charge of the Clinton Correctional Facility, have just been placed on administrative leave, including - let me show you a photo - this man here in green on your screen. Talking to New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, this is the prison's superintendent, along with the top brass. Nine prison guards have also been taken off the job for now while investigators are looking into the role they perhaps played in this whole scheme. The real question right now is this, is captured fugitive David Sweat naming names? And is he telling the truth?

Sara Ganim is outside that hospital where Sweat is talking.

Tell me more about this dry run. What else is he saying?

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Brooke.

Well, authorities are looking into the possibility that guards on the honor block, where these two men were housed, that they may have been sleeping during their shift overnight giving these two men the opportunity to crawl into the walls, into the passages and practice. We know that the district attorney has said - and he said two weeks ago that they were looking into the possibility that they were inside the walls in the middle of the night, up to six weeks before the actual escape, looking around to see where they could go, how they could potentially get to the other side of the wall and out. And so now authorities are looking into this possibility that guards were actually asleep during their shift during the night.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. So, guards would be sleeping. Obviously this would be why they would do this at night. That makes sense. Also now we - now we have, and I need to give our viewers a fair warning, we're going to show you an image of Richard Matt - recently killed Richard Matt. Here he was here in the woods.

Sara, tell me - tell me why authorities are releasing the photo.

GANIM: Yes, that's right, Brooke. Just a warning to the viewers, of course, this is a graphic photo because he was shot in the head and he was killed. And this was on Friday afternoon, two days before his accomplice David Sweat was found and captured alive. You know, this photo really shows us a few things, Brooke. It shows us what he was wearing. He was wearing dark-colored clothes, green and brown. He had boots on. He fit into the woods. He was dressed for the woods.

If you're in this thick brush, which we walked through some of it when we were over there, it is very difficult to navigate. I was only about 20 feet or so away from the camera when we were there and I couldn't see where it was. It was very easy to get turned around. If he was hiding out in the woods while search teams were looking for him, this is the clothes you would want to be in if you didn't want to be found.

Something else. You know he was wearing boots. Authorities telling CNN that he had blisters on his feet but not as bad as they might have expected. We do know, though, that David Sweat ditched him about five days before the capture because he says that Matt was - who was older - was simply slowing him down and we do know from a source who's telling CNN that Richard Matt was also ill, possibly from drinking or eating something that was contaminated.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Sara Ganim, thank you very much.

Let's have a bigger conversation here. Art Roderick, let me bring you back in, former assistant director for the U.S. Marshal's Office, and Jonathan Gilliam, former FBI special agent.

Gentlemen, great to have you.

ARTHUR RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHAL'S OFFICE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Listen, a new day, new details.

Jonathan, let me just turn to you first. I mean, you know, we hear, it's sort of like I want to say, duh, like out of the movies -

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Right.

BALDWIN: They're going to try a dry run if they can - if they can pull it off. What do you make of the brazenness of that or the - or the, you know, foresight of trying something out before they pull it off?

GILLIAM: To be honest with you, it doesn't sound brazen at all. It sounds like they knew that they weren't going to get caught and so they just went in there and scoped it out and made sure that everything was good. Their plan was absolutely perfect up to the point where they got out.

BALDWIN: Up to the fence. Yes, up to the fence.

GILLIAM: You know. Unfortunately, they depended on somebody that they manipulated. And when you do that, you know, it doesn't always turn out the way that you would like it to turn out.

BALDWIN: Art, what do you make of the fact, here you have this guy, David Sweat, right, he's the one who's talking, who's inside this hospital recovering and he's already cracked, talking about, well, listen, Plan A was to get this lady we befriended and go straight to Mexico. If you're - if you're an investigator and you're trying to, you know, cajole this man into more information, how are you doing it, A, and, B, do you think at this point he's naming names?

[14:05:03] RODERICK: I think he's - I think he's absolutely spilling his guts at this point. I mean he - he's obviously an egomaniac and he knows how - how broad this story has been blasted around the country and around, you know, internationally. And I think -

BALDWIN: Because we know he was listening. He found a radio.

RODERICK: Right. Exactly.

BALDWIN: We learned that.

RODERICK: Exactly. So, I mean, he knows how much press he's been getting. So he's going to keep this story going as long as he can. And I find it interesting that they were doing test runs because the more I hear about this case, the more it sounds to me like exactly what happened at Alcatraz. And I did several leads on Alcatraz in the '80s, '90s and 2000s and that's exactly what happened there. They had got up into the catwalk area and had done several dry runs before they actually committed the escape.

BALDWIN: Had access to the catwalk, had access to the electrical system.

RODERICK: Yes.

BALDWIN: Probably figured out exactly which pipes to crawl through or what have you. But here's what also strikes me, Jonathan Gilliam, is the fact that, you know, they are clearly throwing this woman, Joyce Mitchell, under the bus. Yes, she was our getaway driver. Yes, we were going to go to Mexico.

GILLIAM: Right.

BALDWIN: But when it comes to this - this corrections officer, Gene Palmer, who was just up in court in Plattsburgh yesterday -

GILLIAM: Right.

BALDWIN: Oh, he knew nothing.

GILLIAM: Uh-huh. Well, everybody is going to minimize their role. Even the governor this morning minimized the state's role or the prison's role in this whole thing, saying, you know - going over and over that nothing has happened in 100 years. But that's what people do. They minimize their roles in this.

BALDWIN: But specifically a correction officer, I found this curious based upon conversations I've had because, listen, wherever he goes, let's assume it's not back to Clinton -

GILLIAM: Right.

BALDWIN: But where else, Sing Sing, where have you, his story's gotten out there.

GILLIAM: Right.

BALDWIN: And if - and if people know - if correction officers know he snitched on this guy and this guy and this guy, they're going to treat him like you know what.

GILLIAM: Well, let me tell you, that's one of the things about Matt talking is that he's going to have to get some type of special -

BALDWIN: Sweat talking.

GILLIAM: I'm sorry, Sweat talking.

BALDWIN: I know.

GILLIAM: He's going to have to get some kind of special treatment because everybody is going to be looking at him as though he ruined this entire thing that they had going on in this prison. Nothing's ever going to be the same in any of these prisons, hopefully. You know I just - the picture that's unfolding here is getting bigger and bigger to the point where I'm not so sure that a lot of these people that are paid on administrative leave don't actually have something to do with this.

BALDWIN: On that point, we know, Art, 12 people have been put on leave, three on the executive team. They're investigating now this - you know, this prison for drug trafficking, heroin, for example. And my question to you, for all of us who, thank goodness, have not spent a lot of time in maximum security prisons, how do you get drugs in and out, how do you move cash in and out? How is this a business in the prison system?

RODERICK: Well, I'll tell you, they always find a way, whether it's visitors' day, whether it's smuggled in through - they're usually pretty good at checking mail and stuff like that, but usually it's done on visitors' day. And - and I'll tell you, it - for guys like Matt and Sweat who didn't have any visitors, who didn't have support from the outside, weren't receiving money, this was probably the only way they're going to make money.

And I think the other point, too, is, is if this - if this is with heroin being smuggled into the facility and you have guards doing it, OK, where from the outside did that come from? So this is just going to keep snowball rolling, not only with what's going on in the prison, but also what's going on in the community and where those drugs originally came from. BALDWIN: But what does it tell you, Jonathan, also the fact that of these 12 who are on leave, as they're investigating, three of them are at the executive level?

GILLIAM: Well, it tell - it tell - this is a reverse where it usually, you know, rolls downhill and now it's rolling uphill. And what's rolling uphill is the politics that are in play with incarcerating people. I mean, it's gotten to a point now where it's - you know, we can start with the green jumpsuits. I just keep harping on that again and again. Why wouldn't you give them orange? You're not disrespecting incarcerated individuals. You're doing what is tactically correct. And I just think that all the way up you're going to start to see that politics played a huge role in setting the precedent for the way things are done.

RODERICK: Right.

BALDWIN: Jonathan Gilliam, thank you very much.

Art Roderick, thank you, sir.

We'll be talking to someone who definitely spent some time behind bars, who knows a thing or two apparently about what goes on. So, stay tuned for that.

RODERICK: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Fellas, thank you.

GILLIAM: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, a desperate manhunt is underway for accomplices in a terror attack on tourists who were just sitting on this beach, as we're getting new video here of the chase. You have to watch this.

This also, Homeland Security officials are warning all of us, listen, America is at potentially a threat here of an attack this upcoming 4th of July weekend. Hear why this holiday has them so worried.

[14:09:48] And more trouble for Trump. Mexico now pulling out of Miss Universe over Donald Trump's derogatory comments about Mexicans. We'll speak live with a former Miss USA. Her thoughts ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Four days after vacationers came under attack at a beach resort in Tunisia, investigators are trying to hunt down now two more suspects because we're learning today at least 22 of the victims were British. In all, 38 people were gunned down in Friday's rampage. The horrific scene caught on tape.

CNN's senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh shows us what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are unarmed but still they run towards a gunman who's already killed guests at the hotel where they work. Towards the pool. Many guests already fled. The cameraman runs again towards him, yet pauses at the bar. He's seen something. Gun on his shoulder, Reski (ph) is strolling back towards the beach.

[14:15:13] There, we see the victims. Their bodies, too gruesome to show. The cameraman keeps low. "Why, why," he exclaims. Lives and livelihoods taken here in these golden tourist sands. No longer firing, is he out of bullets or targets, unwilling to shoot Tunisian workers. Still, it's those workers who give chase. A head-long rush towards possible death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: And Nick joins me now from Sousse, Tunisia.

Tell me more, Nick, about this gunman and possible ties to ISIS?

WALSH: Well, ISIS has claimed him as theirs, saying they were behind the attack and released a picture of him with that statement on the night of the attack. But it's still unclear if exactly they had foreknowledge or were involved in the detailed planning.

What we do know, and this is quite a remarkable revelation, Brooke, for this tourist resort here, is that a senior Tunisian official believes that he was, in fact, trained inside Libya at the same time as the two gunmen who attacked the Bardo Museum in central Tunis, the capital of this country, back in March. Remember, that attack killed 20, many of them tourists as well.

And that raises the terrifying prospect of these perhaps being a cell that was trained and then sent into Tunisia to carry out these attacks. Are there more? They are hunting accomplices. They have questioned three of the gunmen here, Seifeddine Rezgui's roommates. They're also talking to his college student associates as well. We understand that they, as we just heard, believe he has terrorist links to groups inside Libya, but officials aren't clear if it's a lesser known al Qaeda affiliate called Ansar al-Sharia, or ISIS themselves. That's still being looked at. But they think he was radicalized online and also trained inside Libya. The question really now is, have they caught everybody or are these beautiful stretches of sand behind me, where so many western tourists come for their holiday, are they at risk still.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sounds like they are still looking for several people who could be connected to this. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much, live in Tunisia.

And now to this, U.S. security officials issuing a terror warning for this upcoming 4th of July holiday weekend. But let's be crystal clear, right now there is no specific, no credible threat that has been identified, but the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, the National Counter Terrorism Center all say extremists could launch attacks this holiday weekend. Those attacks in France, Kuwait, we just mentioned Tunisia, that happened on Friday, raises concerns about terror strikes right here on U.S. soil.

Also factoring into this warning here, the arrest of yet another American. This is the fifth person arrested recently on terror charges just in New York and New Jersey. Expect plenty of security at events if you are headed out and about. Some 18,000 law enforcement agencies will hit the ground for the 4th of July, ordered by Homeland Security officials, to be on the lookout for possible attackers.

So let me bring in CNN's chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

So, Jim, you know, officials are saying this is not a drill, this is a legitimate concern for this weekend?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I think let's frame it this way, and as you did, Brooke, there, you have a whole range of possible terror alerts you could put out ranging from the most severe, there's a credible, specific plot, authorities aware of someone or some group trying to do something in a specific place. This is not that. But it is also not a sort of general warning that, hey, we know terrorists may try to do something.

The level of concern today is really greater than it's been in some time and the specific reason for that is this call from a senior ISIS leader to supporters around the world to attack anywhere they can during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which we're in right now. It is believed that those attackers, for instance, in Tunisia, in Kuwait, were heading that call. And the concern is that you have more Americans, like that last person to be arrested, whose picture you just showed on the air there, as you have more Americans who are getting caught up in this ISIS wave, that the chance of attack increases.

And ISIS is the kind of group that knows the power of timing and July 4th weekend would be enormously powerful timing. So that's the collection in the threat picture right now. Not a specific threat, but a very real threat. Not just a kind of general, everybody watch out, but they - you know, they encourage people to keep their eyes open. At the same time, Brooke, though, they're not saying stay home.

BALDWIN: Right.

SCIUTTO: You know, they want people to celebrate this weekend.

BALDWIN: Timing symbolism very important for this group. We referenced and we showed a picture of this New Jersey man. What more do you know about this guy officials arrested? What was he allegedly plotting to do?

[14:20:05] SCIUTTO: This fits a pattern of a kind of plot by American recruits or adherence to ISIS that we've seen really pick up this year. I mean the numbers this year dwarfing the numbers last year in these charges. Basically they fall under the umbrella of material support to terrorism. And it is - it generally starts with social media contact with ISIS online, possibly with an ISIS recruiter or just in web chat rooms, et cetera. And then moving forward where the police move in when someone like this seems to be moving towards actually doing something or planning or making plans or talking about plans to do something. And the sad fact is, Brooke, they're seeing this with a greater and greater frequency and that's why you have the level of concern about a weekend like July 4th.

BALDWIN: But again, don't be afraid. I'll be in Washington, D.C., taking in the fireworks. Jim Sciutto, I hope to see there.

SCIUTTO: Me, too. Me, too. We'll see you there.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, just a day after NBC cut ties with Donald Trump, the Republican presidential candidate today is doubling down on his comments about Mexicans, but not without more fallout. This time involving his Miss Universe Pageant. One country now deciding to pull out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:30] BALDWIN: Well, the aftershocks keep coming in the wake of Donald Trump's incendiary remarks about Mexican immigrants. Just in the past hour or so, pageant officials in Mexico announce they will not be sending a contestant to Trump's Miss Universe Pageant. And this comes after we reported on the show yesterday, you know, about 24 hours ago, NBC announced their plans to cut all business ties to Donald Trump, including the broadcast of both the Miss USA and Miss Universe pageants.

As for Trump, earlier today he revisited the issue of Mexico yet again. This is what he tweeted. "I love the Mexican people, but Mexico is not our friend. They're killing us at the border and they're killing us on jobs and trade. Fight!" he tweets.

Joining me now, Chelsea Cooley Altman. She was Miss USA 2005.

Chelsea, great to have you on.

CHELSEA COOLEY ALTMAN, MISS USA 2005: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

BALDWIN: So connecting the dots for everyone, by NBC separating ties and the fact that Miss USA happens in two weeks means no Miss USA on TV, at least in this point in time. I want you to tell me, from personal experience, how much of this pageant really is about being on TV.

ALTMAN: Well, the whole idea that - and the nature of it and why we want to compete is because it was always owned by NBC and Donald Trump and they set the gold standard for what pageantry really is in America and around the world. So the fact that the contestants left yesterday to go to the pageant and arrive and now it's being pulled from television is absolutely devastating. Some of these contestants have really dreamt their whole life of being Miss USA and being on that stage. There's nothing like being on live television in front of millions of viewers, not only here in America but around the world. So it's a huge hit to the pageant community, which is really unfortunate because in the United States alone there are over 700,000 pageants annually held a year, which is little over 4 million pageant contestants in America. So the pageant community as a whole has taken a big hit because of that.

BALDWIN: In terms of even just sheer eyeballs on the screen, because I was curious how many people are watching, you know, year in and year out, just looking down, 2014, 5.5 million viewers for that particular Miss USA Pageant. And I just have to ask, you know, because when people - when people say, who cares, this is just a beauty contest, Chelsea, what do you say to them?

ALTMAN: You know, this is an absolute honor to be able to represent your country. There's nothing like hearing the national anthem when you are crowned Miss USA and you get to hear that for the first time. I am so patriotic and I'm so honored that God blessed me with the opportunity to be Miss USA. It is a huge honor, not only in our country, but around the world. Miss USA is the Super Bowl of pageantry. It always has been and it always will be regardless of what happens with this controversy with NBC. But it take as huge, huge hit in light of the incident that is going on and I think it's very unfortunate because it is a tried and true tradition. It's something that has been the gold standard that Donald Trump has kept in the forefront of the media so that women like myself can stand on that platform, champion the causes that they're proud of, support our troops and really make a difference in today's society.

BALDWIN: I want to come back to Donald Trump in just a minute, but it is a pretty big deal. Mexico is now pulling out of Miss Universe and this could be the beginning of other countries. We don't know yet. But let me just read for you what Mexico's national pageant director, Lupita Jones, has written. "It is a shame that because of these racist comments," she's referring to Donald Trump's recent comments, "we will lose what the pageant has promoted and represented during so many years."

Chelsea, have you been following what Donald Trump has been saying recently in speeches, even as recent as yesterday in Chicago. I mean you heard what - what the Mexican official just said. Do you agree that they are derogatory and, in some cases, racist?

ALTMAN: You know, when I heard everything that came out, the way that I interpret it was simply that Donald Trump was talking about the Mexican government and his concerns about the security of our borders between Mexico and the U.S. And I think the way that he was trying to get his position across is the fact that if there's any loophole, anything can come through. And I don't think he was specifying that specifically to Mexicans. I think he was talking about the lack of control that the Mexican government has on the border control and how that is directly affecting America today.

In his comments to me it seemed like he was inclusive of anyone and everyone that would be considered a rapist, a murder, a terrorist, not just the Mexican people. He said today and tweeted out that he loves the Mexican people and I think it's very unfortunate that Mexico is pulling out of the Miss Universe Pageant. You know, when I competed, Miss Mexico, Laura Elizondo, was one of my absolute best friends there and the Mexican pageant always sends the most amazing titleholders and it really is a way of life for them. So I think it's very unfortunate that they decided to pull their position at Miss Universe.

[14:30:10] BALDWIN: Just going back on what you said, just - I've read pretty thoroughly also on what Donald Trump has said.