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Drug Lord El Chapo Guzman Still On The Loose After Prison Break; President Obama Commutes Prison Sentences For 46 Drug Offenders. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired July 13, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] RUBEN BARRALES, PRESIDENT, GROW ELECT: And unfortunately, as a son of Mexican immigrants, his remarks are insulting. He really needs to apologize for those particular remarks. He can have that position on immigration, but his remarks on Mexicans are just unacceptable. And he really does need to apologize. Just as a person who gets a lot of media attention. Maybe correct his statements that are so derogatory about Mexicans.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Let me ask you this, though, I mean, bottom line, here so, even after these remarks, he was polling high and he has sparked this conversation about immigration. Whether or not, you like the specific remarks he made, he has brought the issue to the forefront. Is there anything about what he has done, said, in terms of immigration that you can agree with?

BARRALES: We definitely need to address the issue of immigration. We need comprehensive immigration reform, most definitely. Donald Trump did not bring that discussion forward. That's been a fight in Washington and throughout this country.

BROWN: Hold on. That's been a fight, but it that has now dominated the campaign trail after his comment. So yes, this is an ongoing fight. But now, that is really front and center right now because of his comments driven.

BARRALES: Pamela, don't be mistaken. The headlines are Donald Trump and his sensationalism. And his comments about Mexicans, his derogatory comments about Mexicans which again he really should apologize for, he should apologize. And they do not reflect the Republican Party. They reflect Mr. Trump and his brand, but we as a Republican, as son of Mexican immigrants, as a proud American, I want to support a Republican who is going to take us forward, who is going to be inclusive and optimistic and really sees a brighter future for America.

BROWN: So we've heard from other, you know, his opponents about this and they have been pretty outspoken. Lindsey Graham says Trump is a quote "wrecking ball for the GOP." In your view, somehow Trump impacting the party when it comes to the Hispanic votes, the party as a whole?

BARRALES: Well, you know, I think if there is any silver lining, it's that he's really making Republicans have to make a decision. Are we going to stand up, and are we going to push back on this anti- immigrant rhetoric. It's been part of our history for centuries, you know, with the Germans, with the Irish, with the Chinese, with the Japanese. It's been bipartisan. The modern Republican Party and leaders in the Republican Party need to be able to stand up. You can have different positions on immigration and immigration reform, but that rhetoric, that derogatory anti-immigrant rhetoric has no place in the modern Republican Party.

BROWN: But Ruben, some are standing up saying this is what constituents are saying to them just to push back on that.

BARRALES: Well, you know, everyone, as my mother says, (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE), everyone has a different perspective on the world. But what I can tell you, Pamela, is that Republicans want to win the White House in 2016 and to have a winning conservative coalition, we need to be inclusive, we need to embrace immigrants, we need to push for immigration reform. And we need to really push for a brighter future for America which includes all of our diversity. And I think our eventual nominee will do that.

BROWN: Ruben Barrales --

BARRALES: And I think our eventual nominee will do that.

BROWN: All right. Ruben, thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it.

BARRALES: Thank you.

BROWN: And up next, he says the punishment does not fit the crime. President Obama today shortening the prison sentences for dozens of people behind bars. Why Obama is stepping in now and for who.

Plus Mexico's most notorious drug lord on the loose once again. The he escaped prison through a mile long tunnel apparently built just for his escape. Coming up. I'm talking to a former agent with the drug enforcement administration about this kingpin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:38:13] BROWN: Well, the White House says that the punishment did not fit the crimes for 46 nonviolence drug offenders and now President Obama is commuting their sentences. And he gave more reasons why in a video posted to the White House Web site. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They were not hardened criminals. But the overwhelming majority had been sentenced to at least 20 years. Fourteen of then had been sentenced to life for nonviolent drug offenses. So their punishments didn't fit the crime. And if they had been sentenced under today's law, nearly all of them would have already served their time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And the White House added more detail in the daily briefing this afternoon. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: These are individuals who are nonviolent low level offenders. These are individuals who the vast majority would receive a substantially shorter sentence if they were -- each of these cases is considered individually. And it's the president's responsibility to use this power judiciously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. Let's bring in CNN justice reporter Evan Perez.

So Evan, tell us what the significance of this is and the people who will be released now.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well imagine, Pamela, that you're sitting in jail and sitting in prison, you've been sentenced to life in prison and you get a letter from the president that says you can go home because of the way that the government has changed its treatment of the offensive for which you're serving. That's what happened to Douglas Lindsay. We have a picture of him. He's serving a life sentence for dealing in crack cocaine, which he admits, but it was nonviolence. He was part of what was believed to be a trafficking group.

And everybody decided to plead guilty and cooperate and get much shorter sentences. He decided to go to trial and end it up paying a much heavier price. And that is the kind of thing the government says that the Obama administration says that they are trying to address now with some of these commutations.

These are 46 men and women who are getting commutations under this order from the president. And really what he is doing is he is changing, President Obama is changing the narrative of his legacy on this issue. Until now he's been viewed as being rather stingy if you compare him to other presidents, we have a list right there, 153 commutations and pardons by this president compared to 200 by the end of the Bush presidency, 457 under president Clinton and 77 under the first president George Bush.

And what this represents for President Obama is really a second step in a broader reform effort that they have been going for under this administration which is reducing how prosecutors treat nonviolent drug offenses and so now we have people who are in prison who are how going to be getting out we expect at that a lot more will be coming before the end of this administration.

[15:41:10] BROWN: Certainly a big announcement coming from the White House today.

Evan Perez, thank you so much.

And up next, a notorious drug lord El Chapo escaped from prison. I'm talking to a former agent with the drug enforcement administration who says drug kingpins only fear one thing. What that is, up next?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:41] BROWN: Mexicans say the level of corruption in their country is simply quote "unbelievable." Others say that drug lord El Chapo Guzman's escape only underscores the bitter reality that the Mexico's criminal justice system needs serious reform and that its war strategy against the cartel is failing miserably.

Joining me now to discuss this, former DEA agent and firearms in homeland security expert, David Katz.

So, David, this escape obviously huge embarrassment for Mexico. In fact, my colleague Brian Todd who talked to a Mexican officials. He says this is a blow for all of us. This was supposed to be a fortress where El Chapo was and he escaped in a way that it's hard to believe no one else was on this - it was on the prison.

DAVID KATZ, FORMER DEA AGENT: This is like a cartoon.

BROWN: Exactly.

KATZ: There is no place in Mexico that this guy cannot escape from. Period. The thing that -- let's go back to what happened in Colombia 20 years, 30 years ago. The way that problem was tackled and defeated in Columbia was extraditing the heads of the cartels to the United States. That's their worst case scenario. This guy, same thing, he does not want to come back here. Why? Because here he's just a prisoner. He doesn't have that pervasive influence that he maintains in Mexico. So, that the job bottom line. He needs to be in jail here.

BROWN: But some of his enemies in the drug cartels, they have been extradited here. Why hasn't he? I mean, especially after two times.

KATZ: I think this is just like exercising their sovereignty. He's our kingpin. You have to remember, the majority of the victims of this cartel wars are Mexicans, have Americans been killed, yes they have, but in small numbers comparatively. This guy, they attribute the 34,000 deaths to El Chapo. So I can see the Mexican's point. However, if they really want to see justice done, they have to get him to the United States, if they ever catch them.

BROWN: So let's talk about El Chapo and how it relate to United States. Why is it so important for the U.S. to capture him? Why is it so critical?

KATZ: That's great. That's great question. By the way, he is - even when he was in jail, I can assure you he is still running this operation. He has relatives, he has close compatriots. They are still running the operation and taking orders from him. If he's in the United States, he's not doing that. Will they still continue, yes, but perhaps most effectively.

Most of the drugs that are sold in the United States crossed Mexican border. We have are porous border. It is not only, by the way, it's a small percentage of being actually trucked across the border by individuals by mules. Thousands and thousands in pounds are being brought across and cartel continue in trucks, in produce, anything that's crossing the border legitimately is potentially an area where things can be smuggled. And this guy almost probably half of all the narcotics coming from Mexico into the U.S. That's why it is important.

BROWN: Do you really have an incentive to capture him again. In fact the DEA, the agency that you worked for helped the Mexican officials capture him the last time around. Do you think the U.S. will participate like it did before?

KATZ: Yes, but I hope they will stop with this kind of political nice talk.

BROWN: What do you mean by that?

KATZ: Because-now they're saying of course we'll give you every bit of technical aid we can to get this guys back in custody.

BROWN: So you think it's just talk?

KATZ: Well, they will absolutely will try to get him, but there has to be -- by the way this time, you've had two shots. He needs to be extradited. We did a great job actually my former partner ran the special operations to find him.

BROWN: They used the stingray device.

KATZ: Yes, great technology. It was DEA, marshals, I.C.E., they had a great working relationship sharing information. They got the information to the Mexican marines. They captured him. Nine months later, he's out digging a mile long tunnel under the most secure facility allegedly in Mexico.

BROWN: And some even question whether he actually went out through that tunnel, and whether he was just let out through the front door. So certainly has raised a lot of questions.

David Katz, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

KATZ: My pleasure. Thank you.

BROWN: And up next, he's one of the biggest heroes in American literature. But a new book portrays Atticus Finch as a racist. We have the inside story behind this stunning twist, right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:53:41] BROWN: Well, this next story brings new meaning to the term "spoiler." It is about the much anticipated Harper Lee novel is out tomorrow. Here is your chance to turn away. Don't say we didn't warn you. If you're still with me, here it is.

Atticus Finch, the moral killer, Gregory Peck in 1962 film, (INAUDIBLE), is portrayed as a racist and segregationist. And Lee (INAUDIBLE). I know it is wounding to many. But remember this, Harper Lee wrote this version of Atticus Finch in the book "To Kill A Mockingbird." When she presented it to an editor, the editor apparently suggested she rewrite the story in the eyes of Finch's daughter. And the Atticus we all admire was born.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never really understand the person until you consider things from his point of view.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You climb inside of his skin, walk around in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: According to a documentary filmmaker who just met the 89-year- old reclusive author, Lee wants the world to know the original version of Finch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY MURPHY, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER WHO SPOKE WITH HARPER LEE: She issued states, her law issued statements. Everyone says she is delighted and happy to have it published. I did ask her if she thought it was ever going to be published, and she said don't be silly, of course I did. So that was her answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:55:05] BROWN: And with me to discuss all of this, CNN political commentator Marc Lamont Hill, and Maureen Corrigan. She's the book critic for NPR's Fresh Air. And she is one of the few who is actually read all of Harper Lee's new novel.

So Maureen, first to you, because you've actually read it, tell us about this new Atticus. We know he attends a KKK meeting, is that right? What else does he do?

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BOOK CRITIC, FRESH AIR: We're told he joined the KKK when he was in his 30s. He is now on the board of directors of the Macomb citizen council. This was in the 1950s when a lot of southern towns and cities had citizen councils to try to push back against the influence of the federal government, to certainly try to push back against brown versus board of education, which we're told in this novel is very much on of minds of Atticus and fellow white men in Macomb.

It's disturbing. It's not just that he has misgivings about integration. He talks about the black population of Macomb as being child-like, as being not ready for the full privileges of citizenship in America, and scout herself says to her father you sound like Hitler, you sound like --

BROWN: But remember this was set in the 1950s in Alabama.

But Marc, you know Atticus Finch was a hero to so many people from "to kill Mocking Bird." In fact, I've been reading through some of the tweets about this. And one person says the idea of Atticus Finch being racist is like Spielberg doing a sequel in which E.T. punches Eliot in the face and steal to (INAUDIBLE) money. That just shows you what kind of a nerve this struck. Why do you think that is, Marc?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, because we attached so much of our hopes not just in race relations, but in the American democratic experiment to literary characters. That's not uncommon. And so Atticus Finch from many of us represented the possibility of white America, the possibility of America writ large to be different and better, to grow.

He was an example of someone who in the midst of Jim Crow, in the midst of the most utterly vile racist conditions in American history, was able to stand up above the freight, defend the life of a black person and to reproduce a new reality, he was the modern, he was like a modern day John Brown of his time.

And so, when you go back and find out that even when he was doing that, in the back of his, he was a Ugenesis, in the back of his mind, he would later oppose brown bush of board of education. He would be one of those people who in 1955 was a deliberate speed after Brown came up in 1954. When you find that out, it makes you say, hey, wait a minute maybe we're not as good as we thought they were. But to me it is a little more complex than that. To me it says that even the best people, even the most progressive liberals on the racial front are still complicated moral beings that all of us may have some of this in the back of our minds and something we need to untangle.

BROWN: And that's what other people on this debate have said that look, life isn't perfect. People are complex and that's reflected in this.

But Maureen, I'm curious on what your view is. Do you think if Harper Lee wrote this book after "to kill a mockingbird "it would still be written the same was, because as pointed out earlier, she wrote this before she wrote "to kill a mockingbird."

CORRIGAN: Yes. I would hope that if she wrote it after "to kill a mocking bird." And by the way, it reads like a sequel. There's constant references to characters who don't appear in this book, but who appeared in "to kill a mockingbird." So it's very funny reading it. You feel like you're reading a sequel. But I would hope it would be a little better written. There's no way that anybody who picks up "go set a watchman" is going to say that it's the equal in terms of literary value "to kill a mockingbird." Lots of dead stretches, a plot line about Calpurnia's nephew who is about to go to jail, that doesn't go anywhere. That sort of trails off. It is not the literally masterpiece, that's for sure then "to kill a mocking bird' was.

BROWN: Well, I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed by that as well.

Marc, quickly, I'm just curious, what do you make of the significance of this coming out now as we are dealing with so many significant monumental, you know, I guess, things happens in that regard, with the lowering of the confederate flag, what we have seen with Ferguson, in the last year, what do you make of the timing of this when so many people are grappling with their history in that regard?

HILL: Yes. It may turn out to be a reminder that at all moments, even the best people when they celebrated our racial and social collective victories still had work to do internally and collectively. Even the best of us still has a little part of us die inside that's racist, that's sexist, that's homophobic, et cetera. So even as we are championing the confederate flag coming down, we may have to ask ourselves tough question, what are the social issues?

So for me, it is a reminder. My only wish is that were better written books so that people will appreciate this and not just as a missive.

BROWN: All right, Maureen and Marc, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

CORRIGAN: Thank you.

HILL: Thank you.

BROWN: And that does it for me. "THE LEAD," up next.