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Second GOP Presidential Debate On Wednesday And Hosted By CNN; State Of Emergency Declared In Two California Counties; Kentucky County Clerk Kim Davis To Return To Work On Monday. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired September 13, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: They're going to release a report on what changes should be made in the city. The group of local leaders came together last year before a grand jury decided not to indict a Ferguson, Missouri, officer in the shooting death of Michael Brown.

And last nights, Boston Red Sox Slugger David Ortiz became the newest member of the 500 club. He's the 27th baseball player to hit 500 home runs. The crowd chanted his nickname, Big Papi, as he ran the bases during last night's game against the Tampa Bay Rays.

We have so much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM, and it all starts right now.

All right, hello again. And thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. We're following several developing stories today. The governor of California has declared a state of emergency as two fires there explode. One growing to 40,000 acres in less than 24 hours.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is a very rapid rate of spread. Very dangerous situation. It's just a reminder this is how the conditions are in California right now. And with the temperatures and low humidity, four years of a drought, conditions are very extreme.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And thousands of people have been forced from their homes. And four firefighters have been injured trying to push back those flames.

Also today, Kim Davis' attorney is speaking out about what may happen when the Kentucky clerk reports back to work tomorrow. Will she continue to deny marriage licenses to same-sex couples? We'll hear from her counsel.

But first, we are just three days away now from the Republican debate. And our John Berman is in Simi Valley, California, where the stage is set. The candidates will be doing walk-throughs in the coming days. And something tells me, John, they'll look at air force one, Reagan's air force one in the library and try to envision themselves, what if.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: If only they had that ride. Thank you so much, Fredricka.

This is the center of the political universe for the next three days. And what happens here, just three days from now, could be a turning point in this campaign. All the polls right now, they have Donald Trump out in front by a lot, 32 percent in the latest national poll. Ben Carson, you can see him right there, he's surged into second place. Iowa, largely the same situation. Ben Carson perhaps a bit closer there. But Donald Trump still the one to beat at 27 percent. That means the debate here Wednesday night is the next big chance for the rest of these guys and Carly Fiorina to make their mark, to try to cut into that lead. So how might they do that?

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the question at the center of each candidate's debate playbook, to play offense or defense against Donald Trump. This week, some have given a preview of what could be their upcoming play.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he believes that he can insult his way to the presidency, and I don't think history is not a really good guide for that.

SERFATY: Calibrating their message, going more aggressively after Trump.

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: He doesn't believe in anything other than Donald Trump. He's a narcissist. He is an egomaniac.

SERFATY: In the first debate, the differing tactics taken against Trump led afterwards to a massive reshuffling of the field. Jeb Bush with his strategy of staying out of the fray.

BUSH: I'm done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: You're through.

BUSH: I'm through. I just think that we need to be much more hopeful and optimistic about our ideology.

SERFATY: Was overshadowed. In the time since, he's seen his support plummet and may be looking now to tee up a stand-out moment against Trump to stop his slide. By comparison, Carly Fiorina.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I didn't get a phone call from bill Clinton before I jumped in the race. Did any of you get a phone call from Bill Clinton? I didn't.

SERFATY: Who strong debate performance helped earn her a spot on the main stage this time around.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: They have to make a strategic decision. Go negative on Trump and help take him down or offer something positive and introduce yourself in a positive way to the public. And that could help you when Trump falters.

SERFATY: For a spotlight on Ben Carson, now with Trump at center stage. Aides to Carson said he won't back away from drawing distinctions with Trump.

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not taking the bait. I'm not going there. Next question.

SERFATY: But will not go after him in a personal way. The debate stage is unforgiving, creating a series of make or break moments for the candidates that can soar --.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.

SERFATY: Or flop.

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can't. The third one, I can't. Sorry. Oops.

SERFATY: Leaving a lasting memory tied to each candidate for better or for worse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY: And 24 million people watched last month's debate. So for the candidates, especially the ones that are really struggling, this is their best chance to try to reach a larger audience and hopefully in their case, get some momentum, John, as they try to move forward and away from the summer of Trump -- John.

[15:05:03] BERMAN: Yes, no doubt.

Sunlen Serfaty, it is a big audience. It is an engaged audience. It an audience they all need. Thank you so much.

With me right now, Ana Navarro, she is a CNN political analyst, also a supporter of Jeb Bush, a friend of Marco Rubio. Also joining me remotely from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Jeffrey Lord, a CNN political commentator, a former political director for Ronald Reagan, I, of course, am at the Ronald Reagan presidential library right now.

Jeffrey, I want to start with you. We have been talking about what Donald Trump we might see here in this debate here behind me Wednesday night. Over the weekend, Donald Trump said, you know what, I may not be so aggressive. You may see a nicer guy. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: You said that it sounds like you're expecting a bunch of sleepers when you get to the debate this week.

TRUMP: No sleepers. No, no sleepers. Everyone is capable, everybody is competent. And you do what you do. You know, I've been doing this a long time. And I want to make America great again. I know how to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: That sounds like a very different Donald Trump than what you used to say before. Capable, competent, talking about your opponents. That's a different Donald Trump.

TRUMP: I'm trying to be nice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Well, you're laughing, Jeffrey Lord is laughing at the idea of Donald Trump saying I'm trying to be nice. What's so funny? Do you not buy it?

JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, first of all, I know Donald Trump and he is a nice guy. But I do think he enjoys keeping them off balance, and he does.

But on a serious note, John, in a recent Quinnipiac poll, way deep in the internals of the poll, there was a question to Iowa Republican likely caucus goers about who -- whether they wanted somebody who was -- who had Washington governmental experience or someone else. And 87 percent, 87 percent of the respondents said they didn't want anybody with Washington experience or governmental experience.

Now, you know, arguably, that takes in some of the governors, but the fact of the matter is that Donald Trump has been sailing along here in poll after poll. I think that we're going to see some more of that during this debate. You know, I think this is an outsider's year.

BERMAN: Ana Navarro, in second place, in most of these polls, another outsider is Ben Carson. He has surged into second place nationally and in Iowa. You know, in the first debate, he really was barely there until the end. He made a very captivating comment that a lot of people liked toward the end of the debate, but he won a huge stretch without saying anything. This time, he's standing next to Donald Trump. What are the risks for Ben Carson this time?

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I'm not sure that there's that many risks for Ben Carson. I think he's got a very singular style, very unique style, which he hasn't changed and it's appealing to people. And he is benefitting from that outsider trend, which we're not only seeing in the United States. We just saw it in the labor party in England.

In Guatemala, they just elected, you know, a comedian in the presidential primary. So I think, you know, we're seeing it around the world. And I think Ben Carson is the guy for the very evangelical, the ones that are religious in the Republican Party, which is a very important segment, who have questions about Trump on some of those social issues and faith issues.

And I do think that Donald Trump tries to be nice, but I'm not sure he can help himself, you know. Like in that "Rolling Stone" article that was talked about this week, he says, well, you know, I shouldn't say this. I'm supposed to be nice. I'm not supposed to say these things. But gee, look at Carly Fiorina's face. So, you know, I think in his head, he knows he should be nice. But

when it comes down to it, I think it's a hard thing for him to pull off.

BERMAN: You know, Jeffrey, Ana just brought up Carly Fiorina. That, in addition to Ben Carson being center stage, is the big difference in this debate at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on Wednesday night. Carly Fiorina will be on the main stage with Donald Trump. There has been this back and forth over the last several days where Donald Trump talked about her face.

What do you think Donald Trump should do? If you were advising Donald Trump, what would you say? How would you tell him to deal with Carly Fiorina on the stage on Wednesday?

LORD: Well, just be himself, be nice, be polite. I mean, if this subject comes up about the "Rolling Stone" comment, I would bring up certainly her comment about the physical appearance of Barbara Boxer which was caught on a CNN live mic when she was running for the U.S. Senate. And I would also bring up, you know, this business about she didn't get a call from Bill Clinton.

Ruth Marcus of the "Washington Post" wrote a long piece the other week that said that when she was in a makeup room with Carly Fiorina, back in 2008, when Carly was doing this -- some surrogate things for John McCain, she confessed to Ruth Marcus that, well, gee, if McCain wasn't in the race, she would be supporting Hillary. So if I were Donald Trump, I would bring that up.

NAVARRO: You see, I wouldn't. I think it would give us all something to talk about. And I don't have any expectations that this happens. I mean, after all, Donald Trump has said, he doesn't ask God for forgiveness. But it would be amazing if Donald Trump on that stage said, you know what, Carly, I really shouldn't have said that. And I regret having said anything about your face.

[15:10:12] BERMAN: Intrigue. We'll find out Wednesday night if Donald Trump is taking advice from Ana Navarro.

Ana, Jeffrey, stick around.

Several Republican presidential contenders, and I think this is the fascinating new dynamic in this race. Several are refusing to say they will support Donald Trump if he gets the nomination. So, is this the beginning of a mutiny, and how does Trump respond to this? We'll discuss right after the break -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. We look forward to that.

Thanks so much, John.

All right, also ahead, my exclusive interview with the attorney for Kim Davis, the Kentucky clerk jailed after refusing to sign marriage licenses for same-sex couples. She's due back to work tomorrow. We'll ask her attorney if she plans on doing her job.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:09] WHITFIELD: All right, lovely pictures of the Ronald Reagan library there. We're back with more election coverage leading up to CNN's GOP debate Wednesday in Simi Valley, California. Out John Berman, Ana Navarro are there. And Jeffrey Lord joining us from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. All right, good to see all of you.

So let's talk about this GOP pledge, which, you know, almost all of the candidates took, you know, a look at it at the debate. And Donald Trump, you know, refused to make that pledge, but eventually, he changed his mind and then signed it a few weeks later.

So now, George Pataki and Bobby Jindal say they will not vote for Trump if he is the Republican nominee. So earlier today, Republican national committee chairman Reince Priebus spoke to CNN's Jake Tapper about that pledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: You got the Republican candidates to sign these loyalty pledges. Are you concerned at all?

REINCE PRIEBUS, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: No. I'm not concerned. You know what, every candidate and all these campaigns are going to do whatever they need to do in order to benefit their own campaigns. And I suspect that there will be a lot more things happening over the next several weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:15:14] WHITFIELD: All right, so Ana, let me begin with you. What happened to the teeth in that pledge?

NAVARRO: Well, let's remember that neither Bobby Jindal nor George Pataki were on the main stage last time when the question was asked if they would raise their hands.

WHITFIELD: Why should that matter?

NAVARRO: Well, I'm just saying they didn't do it in public. I mean, it matters in that it was a different standard. They didn't commit to doing that in public. The issue, though, is that if you want to get any attention right now, it almost has to be Trump v. you. And so what we have seen, I think, with Pataki, with Jindal, who are way down in the polls, is an attempt to get into the game. They want to be part of the Trump versus somebody, telenovela, which we the media have been talking about for the last two months.

And frankly, I think Donald Trump, who knows TV very well, is very media savvy, was even, you know, more lethal towards these guys by not even dignifying their attacks with a response. He just kind of waved them off and said, OK, you know what? I don't respond to anybody that doesn't have at least one percent in the polls.

WHITFIELD: So Jeffrey, you mentioned earlier, you know, in your discussion, you know Donald Trump. Do you feel like he thought by signing that pledge that what also came with it would be this universal endorsement by the other candidates if indeed he's the nominee?

LORD: Yes, I'm sure he did. Frankly, I did. I thought everybody did. I thought that was the deal. And I might add, I have said this before, before we got to the point of the signing of the pledge, that there has been this kind of problem in the Republican party that establishment figures who lose Senate nominations or house nominations or governor nominations will during a run-up to all this, say, well, you know, we all want to unite and support the party's candidate, thinking they're going to be the candidate. Then they lose and the first thing they do is refuse to support their opponent. So this is fairly typical. And I can only say is all this does is add fuel to the notion that this is exactly why so many grassroots Republicans don't want an establishment candidate because they can't trust their word.

WHITFIELD: And so John, it would seem that could ultimately bode very well, especially for the nonprofessional politicians, you know, of the likes of your Ben Carson and your Donald Trump. That's the message they have been saying.

BERMAN: Yes, you know, it's so interesting. From the minute this pledge came into being, Fredricka, I thought it benefitted Donald Trump more than anybody else. They wanted to keep him from saying he would run as a third-party candidate, but the pledge isn't binding. It's not enforceable. There's no GOP marshals who can walk up and say, hey, you promised to run as a Republican. And it's another indication of the lingering effect that Trump's candidacy has even if he doesn't end up with the nomination, because Ana's friend, Jeb Bush, has said that he will would support the nominee whoever it is. And you can bet Hillary that Clinton or Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden, who the Democratic nominee is, would remind voters, voters who might not like Donald Trump down the line, they would remind voters of that fact months from now.

WHITFIELD: OK. And you know, hands down, everyone knows this by now. You know, Donald Trump is kind of leading the charge. He's setting the tone on the debates. He is setting the tone on the campaign trails period.

So when we hear, Jeffrey, Donald Trump say, you know, this is my nice side, and he's using the word nice as both a compliment and an insult when he talks about other candidates. You know, is he already setting the tone for this debate? Is it disarming that he's now talking about I'm the nice guy here?

LORD: Sure, it keeps the other side off base because they don't know what is coming next. I mean, you know, they think he's unpredictable, and you know, this helps his strategy immensely. So you know, he'll do exactly what he needs to do. As I said from the beginning, you know, you're there at the Reagan library, a lot of you there at the Reagan Library. We used to have a saying in the Reagan White House. Let Reagan be Reagan. And the applicable thing here is let Trump be Trump. WHITFIELD: All right. And John, you have been seeing, you know, Jake

there, he is the moderator of this debate. He's been very busy, all over the place. He talks, you know, openly about how he's trying to prepare for this debate and how he also wants to be able to pit certain candidates against one another in the line of questioning. Do you know whether or not this pledge will be, once again, front and center during this debate as well?

BERMAN: I will not reveal any secrets about what questions may or may not be planned for the Wednesday night's debate. No, I will tell you, what Jake has been preparing, you know, with a big team here at CNN, and this is so important.

Look, the first debate, it was in August. The dog is in summer. Now we're into September. You know, kids are back to school. People are starting to pay attention. Iowa is not that far away. You cannot, if you're one of these non-Trump-ian candidates in this debate, you cannot take a pass at another debate and not make your mark. They have to make a mark in just three days. Or else they risk going the way of Rick Perry.

[15:20:13] WHITFIELD: All right. We shall see.

All right. Thank you so much, John Berman, Jeffrey Lord, Ana Navarro. Appreciate it.

And of course, you can watch all of these dramatic moments to come of the second Republican face-off right here on CNN Wednesday night, a two back-to-back debates. One at 6:00 and again at 8:00 p.m. eastern. Two debates that night.

Also ahead, wildfires raging in California are forcing thousands of people from their homes. They're also exploding in size. The danger they're posing, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:24] WHITFIELD: A state of emergency is declared in two California counties and this isn't a haze that you are seeing right there on the screen. This is the smoke from a fire in Lake County, California. Massive wildfires are forcing thousands of people from their homes and have sent four injured firefighters to a burn center with second-degree burns.

Our Nick Valencia has all the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Houses are burning up. It's awful.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two massive wildfires burning in northern California are spreading fast, threatening homes, property, and lives. The valley fire in Lake County, 115 miles west of Sacramento, spread from 50 acres to at least 40,000 by Sunday.

[15:25:08] LYNNE TOLMACHOFF, SPOKESWOMAN, CALIFORNIA FIRE: That is a very rapid rate of spread. Very dangerous situation. Just a reminder this is how the conditions are in California right now. With the temperatures and low humidity, four years of a drought, the conditions are very extreme.

VALENCIA: Of the 1,000 fire personnel battling the valley fire flames, so far, four suffered burn injuries. They have been transported to the UC Davis medical center where they're in stable condition.

MIKE LOPEZ, PRESIDENT, CAL FIRE LOCAL 2881: The firefighters there, I'm sure they're emotionally drained, physically drained after being stuck in a situation where your life is on the line doing your job.

VALENCIA: Mandatory evacuations have been ordered for many communities in the fire zone. A shaken Joyce (INAUDIBLE) got out just in time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were stuck in the middle of the fire for a while. And couldn't go either way, and we were stuck, we saw the flames going up the hill toward our house.

VALENCIA: Meanwhile, just over 100 miles away, the butte fire has grown to more than 65,000 acres, also fueled by dry conditions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Embers were hitting me and I was going to take a picture. I didn't even have time to take my phone out of my pocket to take a picture. It was that hot that fast.

VALENCIA: Sixty four hundred structures are being threatened there. More than 130 of them have already been destroyed. In both fires, residents say they had very little time to escape the fast-moving flames.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We smelled the smoke and we went outside and our neighbors were in a panic. They told us to leave. We went across and helped them get their important things out of their home. Their barn, unfortunately, burned down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: And for now, the state of emergency issued by the governor of California is just for the valley fire, but it's the butte fire that is also threatening hundreds of homes, just 20 percent contained right now. And those flames as you saw in the pictures are fast- moving, Fred.

WHITFIELD: It was amazing to see that kind of wall of smoke behind --

VALENCIA: Just incredible. Suffocating there for the folks that did stay, but mandatory evacuations for many in those communities surrounding the Sacramento area, each by within about 100 miles of Sacramento Valley.

WHITFIELD: My goodness. All right, terrible. We wish them the best.

All right, thanks so much Nick Valencia. Appreciate that. All right, coming up, she wasn't mentioned mump in the last

presidential debate, but will Hillary Clinton be a major target for the Republican candidates in round two? That highly anticipated debate right here on CNN Wednesday night. Our political panel weighing in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:49] WHITFIELD: All right, hello again, everyone. Thanks for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

Hillary Clinton's latest campaign strategy, I'm a grandma. In a new TV ad, she talks about her granddaughter, Charlotte, and that's the first time she has mentioned her grandchild in a campaign spot. But it is something that she has used regularly to connect with voters during her campaign stops. Here's a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I look at my new granddaughter, I think to myself, we're going to do everything we can to make sure she has opportunities in life. But what about all the kids? You should not have to be the grandchild of a former president to know that you can make it in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, the ad will go into the rotation currently running in New Hampshire and Iowa.

John Berman is in Simi Valley, California, where the next debate is about to happen.

So John, there's never been a president who has also been a grandmother, but then, I remember Hillary Clinton saying, you know, never a woman as young or old as her.

BERMAN: Yes, no, never a woman, never a mother, never a grandmother, never a sister either. This could be historic because, of course, on the Republican side, just one woman in the race, Carly Fiorina and her presence will be a big, big deal here in the second Republican debate. The candidates face off right here at the Reagan library on Wednesday night. The top candidates take the stage at 8:00 p.m. eastern. At 6:00 p.m. eastern the four remaining candidates will be on the stage. It will all be worth watching. And it could be a turning point in the race.

Here with me now, Democratic strategist Van Jones. Also here, David Chalian, CNN's political director.

And Van, I want to start with you on the subject of Carly Fiorina because you have faced off with Carly before. You have been on cable TV, you had to debate her before. She's good.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: She is unbelievably good. CNN used to put me and three other people against her, and she would just mow us down. She is an unstoppable force of nature. Donald Trump has never been on stage with someone like her. I think people are underestimating this. She is -- first of all, you have two business people. Business people know how to get their point made. They do not back down.

I guarantee you the moment of this debate is going to be, if Donald Trump turns to her and says anything, it is going to be a thermonuclear event. Carly Fiorina, she is not to be messed with.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: They have been skirmishing like they clearly have been doing shadow boxing before getting on stage together.

WHITFIELD: And she has shown reserve in responding to Donald Trump. In fact, some of the other candidates had a harsher reaction to Trump's "Rolling Stone" interview. "Rolling Stone" talking, you know, Trump talking about Carly Fiorina's face. Other candidates had sharper responses than she had herself almost like she was waiting for something big.

JONES: Well, you know, there's something called the rope-a-dope, you know. There is something called where you kind let people do some stuff. But she showed a lot of class. She showed a lot of reserve. But you know, sometimes when you have female candidates, when you have candidates of color, people who are maybe not that comfortable in the spotlight for store of reasons, they tend to maybe want to be liked too much. You can hold back a little bit too much. You got to push.

Carly has none of that. She is -- when she says I am the best person for the job, she means it. And though, she destroyed everybody on stage with her at the last debate. And she was up against real people. She gets to this big stage, it's going to be -- it will be lightning when she goes after Donald Trump.

BERMAN: In the other big change from last time, besides the presence of Carly Fiorina is the location of Ben Carson. David, you know this all too well because you helped set it up. Ben Carson, center stage because he's second in the polls right now with Donald Trump. Didn't get to say a lot the last debate. But this time around, I have a feeling that he will be called on a lot more. And Donald Trump will have to deal with his presence there, too. He's running second.

CHALIAN: He didn't get to say a lot in last debate. But what he said was very memorable, and he scored really well with focus groups.

You know, we just saw this little back and forth between Donald Trump and Ben Carson over religion and over faith. And Donald Trump questioning Ben Carson's faith and if he really is a man of faith after Ben Carson was saying the same about Donald Trump. We will see if that place out on this debate stage.

You mention he's never to Donald Trump in center stage, John. You know the body language tends to impact this stuff a little bit. There's a little psychology that goes on. And I'm curious to see if Ben Carson standing directly next to Donald Trump sees it in his interest to draw a strong distinction with him. It is tough thing to do with the guy standing at you. It's a little bit easier, like we saw with Chris Christie and Rand Paul on other sides of the stage.

[15:35:16] BERMAN: Van, you know, Donald Trump says that Ben Carson is low energy. But do you actually think that that demeanor could be an advantage for Carson here?

JONES: It really could. You know, sometimes you have the big blustery guy who goes up against the little guy, and the blustery guy gets his head handed to him. It could happen. In boxing, you know, Muhammad Ali went up against Ken Norton. Nobody was afraid of Ken Norton. Muhammad Ali used to be big braggart. Ken Norton adopted a very crouching style and broke Muhammad Ali's jaw. There could be a moment where Trump tries to say something smart to Dr. Carson and Dr. Carson with a single line could knock him down. So I just think it's a very hard opponent. How do you beat up Dr. Carson? It's a very, very tough opponent.

BERMAN: Trump said he's only an OK doctor.

JONES: Listen, your best sound bite against somebody who calls you a godless heathen is you're an OK doctor? That shows me weakness on the part of Trump. I don't think Trump knows how to fight this guy. And I think this is an opportunity for Dr. Carson to do something. You know, you don't expect it, but it could happen.

BERMAN: Just one more reason, David Chalian, why this debate is so key and so exciting. We don't know which Trump we'll see or Ben Carson or Carly Fiorina or the others.

David, Van, great to have you here with us.

All right, do not forget, you can see all the drama here unfold at the Reagan library. The CNN debate is Wednesday night at 6:00 p.m., and then 8:00 p.m. eastern time, two back-to-back debates. Do not miss either one -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: We won't miss them.

All right. Thanks so much, John.

All right, Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis goes back to work tomorrow. Coming up, I ask her attorney, will she continue to refuse issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples or has she found a compromise? My exclusive interview with her attorney next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:38] WHITFIELD: Kentucky county clerk Kim Davis returns to work tomorrow, but will she do her job? I spoke with Davis' attorney, Matthew Staver, and he says Davis is undecided if she will obey the court and allow her deputies to issue those marriage licenses. Davis spent five days in jail for contempt of court after she refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. She was released last week and hundreds of supporters gathered to cheer her on, including presidential candidate Mike Huckabee. Her attorney told me that he is concerned about potential conflicts that could arise on her first day back to work. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW STAVER, KIM DAVIS' ATTORNEY: Well, she's going back to work on Monday morning. And she's going to do her job. I don't know exactly what she will do on Monday morning. That is Kim's ultimate decision. She is aware of the court ruling and she's aware of her job duty. But she's also obviously a person of strong conviction and strong conscience. So we'll find out what Kim will do when she goes to work on Monday.

But she is asking for something very simple. And that is just accommodate her by removing her name and her title off the lists certificates. Kind of like what you have with some of the other licenses in Kentucky, such as the vehicle registration licenses and many other licenses. They're issued not under the name or the authority of a particular clerk, but under the authority of the commonwealth of Kentucky. And if the licenses were changed to do that, she could process them, she could give them out, she could file them in records just like she does other documents that she does as part of her job.

WHITFIELD: So you're saying if her name is not on the licenses and if she has the promise that her name is not on the licenses, tomorrow she will administer the licenses?

STAVER: That's right. If her name and her title -- I mean, if it's Kim Davis or a clerk of the county, it's the same individuals.

WHITFIELD: Why should that accommodation be made? She's an elected public servant. And as an elected public servant, she has to help uphold the law and honor the law?

STAVER: Well, because in this situation, you've got the Kentucky religious freedom restoration act, you have other laws in Kentucky that also protect her religious freedom. In this issue --

WHITFIELD: But the U.S. Supreme Court ruling supersedes any state or other jurisdictional laws or statutes.

STAVER: But not on the issue of religious free exercise. That was not before the court. And in fact, there's going to be a lot of cases like Kim Davis in both the public and private sector that no doubt will make its way back to the court so that we can look at how do you accommodate in light of this five to four ruling in June, just over two months ago, how do you accommodate people of faith like Kim Davis?

WHITFIELD: Is this less about religious freedom and more about the momentum that Kim Davis has received, particularly when you have presidential candidates who have been throwing their support for her cause, for her jailing?

STAVER: No, it's not about that at all. I mean, you talk to Kim Davis and she's a humble woman. She's private. She is a quiet individual. She never wanted to be in this position. And in a heartbeat, she would go back to her previous quiet, tranquil life that she's done in this job and in this community for the beginning of her life in that county.

She doesn't want to be thrust in the spotlight. And the last place she wants to be is to have this very, very difficult decision that no one wants to have. And that is choose your job or choose your faith. Choose your conscience or choose your job that you love.

WHITFIELD: But didn't she know that came with the job when she put herself in the position to be elected into that position as county clerk?

STAVER: No, in fact, when she was elected, same-sex marriage wasn't on the agenda.

WHITFIELD: One of my legal analysts yesterday reminded this audience that federal law says that as an individual and as a public servant, if you don't want to comply, you must step aside. As long as it's part of your public duty, you act on behalf of the public, not on behalf of yourself. That according to one of our legal analysts, Joey Jackson, yesterday.

So tomorrow, when Kim Davis goes to work and same-sex couples come to the office and want a marriage license, whether her name is on them or not, will she administer those licenses?

STAVER: Well, we're still talking with Kim Davis, and she's still making decisions. It's a difficult situation that she doesn't want to be involved in. And it's a difficult situation she would rather never have had happen. And there would be a reasonable way for this to simply satisfy everyone. And we hope still that the governor and certainly the legislature and even the court will ultimately resolve that in a way that is satisfactory because this is a broader debate that we're going to happen to see across the country. And these kinds of cases don't need to be like this. We don't need to have someone like Kim Davis in this situation. There are options.

[15:45:32] WHITFIELD: So you think she's not alone, you're saying? Do you worry about any potential conflict tomorrow when she reports to work?

STAVER: Well, certainly I do worry about that. You know, I spent a lot of time with Kim, and she's an amazing individual. She is someone who loves people. She loves god. She doesn't want to be in this situation. So we're concerned about the future.

WHITFIELD: All right, Matthew, thank you for your time.

STAVER: Thank you, my pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. So what can happen to controversial Kentucky clerk if she doesn't uphold her duties on Monday? Our legal analysts join me to discuss her possible legal road next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:50:25] WHITFIELD: All right. Before the break, I spoke with Matt Staver exclusively. And he is the attorney for controversial Kentucky clerk Kim Davis. She spent five days behind bars for refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples and released under the condition that she cannot interfere with deputies in her office providing licenses to same-sex couples. Even her attorney says she is still undecided if she will obey the court. And if she doesn't, the judge says, he just might draw her back in jail. Davis has not spoken directly about the case leaving the key questions unanswered. What will she do when she goes back to work Monday?

Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins and HLN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson.

All right, good to see you.

So Mel, you first. You know, you heard the attorney there say that they're requesting some sort of accommodation. That the first amendment as well as a Kentucky law supports the fact that there could be an accommodation that her name, the office, her title would not be on the licenses that would go to same-sex or any couples. Is that true?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Fredricka, it's a great question because the way that her attorney presents it, it sounds like a really simple idea. Just delete my name from a form. Not that simple at all. There is a law on the books in Kentucky that requires that all marriage licenses be issued from not only the county clerk, a statement of authorization, but also a signature from either the clerk or a deputy. And then there's a separate law that actually mandates that every single marriage license in the state of Kentucky has to be issued in a uniform matter.

So they can't simply disregard now Kentucky law and delete her name. They would have to amend the legislation and the statutes in Kentucky in order to change the requirements for a marriage license.

WHITFIELD: So the general assembly would have to be involved.

ROBBINS: Correct.

WHITFIELD: So then Joey, perhaps you heard the interview, I asked Mr. Staver about something you said to me on the air yesterday about upholding the law as a civil servant and this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So one of my legal analysts yesterday reminded this audience that federal law says if you don't want to comply, you must step aside. As long as it's part of your public duty, you act on behalf of the public not on behalf of yourself. That according to Joey Jackson yesterday. So tomorrow, when Kim Davis goes to work and same-sex couples come to the office and want a marriage license, whether her name is on them or not, will she administer those licenses? STAVER: Well, we're still talking with Kim Davis and she's still

making decisions. It's a difficult situation that she doesn't want to be involved in. And it's a difficult situation that she would rather never have had happened. And there would be a reasonable way for this to simply satisfy everyone. And we hope still that the governor and the legislature and the court will resolve that in a way that satisfactory because this is a broader debate that we are going to happen to see across the country. In this case, in cases, don't need to be like this. We don't need to have someone like Kim Davis in this situation. There are options and that's all she's asking for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So Joey, I wonder what your response is to that. Because even say without the general assembly or even another judge perhaps even an appellate judge to weigh in here, if she goes to work tomorrow, if she does not adhere to, you know, upholding the law and handing out the marriage licenses to all eligible, why would she not just be removed from the job right away or how quickly might she be jailed again?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: I think she'd be jailed immediately. And just to back up one second, Fredricka. We may all be sympathetic to the fact that everybody has their own views, no matter what they are. We have Democrats, we have Republicans, we have independents, people support same-sex, people who don't. We got to understand that. But she's not acting in her individual capacity. That's the essence of this.

And so, her lawyer, I get and understand when he says she doesn't want to be in this situation. She is in this situation. And the fact is that is as long as she's acting in a public capacity, you must uphold the principles of the constitution of the United States. Could you imagine if every elected representative who has their own independent views, Fredricka, says well, you know what, I know the Supreme Court said that. But I don't think I want to do that because I just believe it's against my religious freedom. You need uniformity and consistency. And so, while we may be sympathetic to her as an individual, this is a public office, not her own. She needs to comply with the law. And the simple remedy is, if she doesn't comply, then of course she needs to step aside.

[15:55:17] WHITFIELD: And so, Me, I asked the attorney if this is an anomaly, if this was common place. He said he thought he knew of at least 120 other cases that was sympathetic to Kim Davis' plight, that they felt the same way, didn't want to carry off the job because of their religious beliefs. So why are we at this juncture? I thought it would be very clear to everyone who is sworn to be a civil servant that they would have to uphold the law. Why is this now murky?

ROBBINS: Well, it's murky because of Kim Davis. I mean, Joey just summed it up beautifully. You may be sympathetic to her point of view, but she ran for office and she took an oath to abide by the law and to uphold the law and to make sure that the rights, that the citizens of her county are entitled to are ensured. And by the way, the Supreme Court in 2006 had a case where they made it very clear that when you take public office that might by necessity mean there are going to be certain limitations to your freedom. And Kim is making this very clear to all of us that not one individual is going to stand above the law.

WHITFIELD: All right, Mel Robbins, Joey Jackson, always good to see both of you. Thank you so much. We'll see what happens on Monday.

All right. Coming up, the Republican National Committee chairman warned his party's presidential candidate today to watch their tone and proceed with caution. I'll tell you why right after this.

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