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American Jet Has Close Encounter With Russian Fighter Jet Over Syria; Update On Umpqua Community College Shooting; 3:30-4p ET

Aired October 07, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] GLENN GREENWALD, CO-FOUNDING EDITOR, THE INTERCEPT: Has run this hospital for five years, has made very clear that they're not most interested in hearing apologies or claims of mistake or collateral damage. They want only one thing, and that is an independent, impartial investigation to find out what really happened here, who made the decision to bomb this hospital and what it is that they knew. And unfortunately the U.S. government, even through today as President Obama is apologizing, has made clear that they will refuse to cooperate with that kind of investigation because they say they're investigating themselves. And I think whatever side of this debate you're on, you should want a real investigation into what happened here.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: So you clearly feel like the president's apology is not enough at all. I want to play some sound from the White House, from the spokesperson there who touched on what you just raised about the investigation. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There still is more that needs to be learned, however, about how exactly this happened. The president has called for the kind of investigations that will yield a full accounting of what transpired. There is already under way an investigation that's being conducted by the justice department. There are also investigations ongoing being led by NATO and a separate third investigation that is a joint investigation that's being carried out both by the United States and Afghan officials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So we just heard from Josh Earnest. A lot of investigations there.

But Glenn, how independent can an investigation be if it is coordinated by the U.S.? What are the other options here?

GREENWALD: It is just shocking that the U.S. government is standing before the world and saying, we have been accused of committing war crimes by this organization that won the Nobel Peace prize in 1999, the Doctors without Borders, and we will refuse to allow anybody other than ourselves to investigate ourselves. That is completely lacking in all credibility.

And if people really think that the United States committed an innocent error that we had really good intentions in our heart as always and we would never do such a thing, why won't they allow what Doctors without Borders called for this morning, which is an independent body constituted under the Geneva convention that exists exactly for this purpose where there's evidence a war crime has been committed, there's a body that exists under the Geneva convention that is supposed to investigate the impartial and independent and transparent in their findings. The idea that you're going to block that kind of investigation when you're the U.S. government and say that only we will investigate ourselves is the behavior of a guilty party.

BROWN: So speaking of war crimes, you point that out, we know that armed forces are forbidden from indiscriminate attacks but laws do recognize that mistakes are made in the, quote, "fog of war." In your view, Glenn, should the U.S. be prosecuted for a war crime? And how exactly would that happen?

GREENWALD: Well, what I know is this. I don't know what happened here, nor does anybody else. But what I know is there's a lot of evidence to suggest that this was not a mistake. The U.S. government was repeatedly notified of the exact GPS coordinates of this hospital. They called them in the middle of the attack and said, frantically, begging, please stop bombing. You're bombing our hospital.

The Afghan Special Forces three months ago invaded this hospital because they were angry because they thought there were Taliban fighters there. There has been all kinds of hostility directed by the afghan army toward this exact hospital. And Afghan officials have come out and said, not that this was an accident, but that what we did was target this hospital and we were right to do it because there were Taliban there.

So there's so much evidence that this wasn't a mistake. And unfortunately the United States has actually been accused and lots of people have found it guilty over the past 20 to 30 years of committing war crimes, but because it's the most powerful country in the world we're very good at telling other countries, they have to hold their own war criminals accountable but were very good at exempting ourselves. The question is whether that's something we want to continue to tolerate that our own government is exempt and permitted to commit war crimes.

BROWN: Glenn Greenwald, we have to leave it there. But thank you very much for coming on and sharing your perspective.

GREENWALD: Thanks.

BROWN: Up next, an American jet has a close encounter with a Russian fighter jet in Syria, this as Vladimir Putin escalates his war. What is the Russian game plan in Syria? Julia joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:38:38] BROWN: Right now, we are watching a huge escalation of Russia's military intervention in Syria. For the first time, the U.S. military has had to divert an aircraft over Syria to avoid a Russian jet. This close call in the skies as Russia launches 26 long-range cruise missiles from warships positioned in the Caspian Sea, firing them into western Syria. Defense secretary Ash Carter called Moscow's airstrike campaign a quote "fundamental mistake." He said the U.S. is not ready to cooperate with Russia on operations in Syria but Russian officials say they're prepared to work together against is.

Let's bring in Julia Ioffe, a columnist at foreign policy and contributing writer at the "New York Times" magazine.

So Julia, you say that Russia's motives here are easy to see. Does it have everything to gain by working with Assad compared to the U.S., in your view?

JULIA IOFFE, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE: Well, it is -- you know, they're kind of mimicking what the U.S. is doing, right? Have very little skin in the game. Bomb targets your ally wants you to bomb from the air. Don't send in troops. You don't have casualties. And you can pass this off as a quick and easy victorious war at home.

BROWN: So do you buy at all what Moscow is saying, that actually these strikes are meant to target is? That's who we're going after?

[15:40:01] IOFFE: Well, it looks like the evidence on the ground isn't really supporting the Russian claims, even Russian claims that they're targeting al-Nusra. The Belling Cat, British open source journalism project just did an analysis of Russian videos, military videos, where they said they were bombing ISIS targets and yesterday Belling Cat said that actually those were filmed I believe hundreds of kilometers away. They were not bombing ISIS positions. They were bombing rebels that were fighting Assad.

BROWN: And Turkey has weighed in saying just a fraction of the strikes have actually targeted is and they've suggested that Russia is encroaching on their air space. In your view, could this escalate quickly if Russia steps over the line? What could happen there?

IOFFE: Well, I think Russia is pushing the line. It is pushing the envelope. You know, after the war in Ukraine, people in the U.S. was concerned that Russia was going to push the envelope on NATO in the Baltics, that it was going to try to, you know, provoke some kind of response from NATO that would render it on absolute essentially. So if, you know, Russia attacked let's say Latvia (ph) or Estonia but NATO didn't respond, that would render NATO obsolete.

Instead, we're seeing something similar happening not north in the Baltics buff south on the Turkish border with Russia constantly pushing the boundaries, even locking NATO planes in its sights for several minutes, just trying to see what NATO does, trying to see how much you can get away with. And I think that, you know, they're seeing that NATO is trying to avoid confrontation because a confrontation between NATO and Russia would be disastrous. So we're just seeing this kind of game of chicken right now.

BROWN: Yes. But it's still a huge risk for Russia because Turkey could say, look, you're violating our air space, that you know, your aircraft wasn't marked and ostensibly, Turkey could should it down, right?

IOFFE: Could. I doubt it would want to do that because Turkey is still a very important ally of Moscow's. They are a big client of Russian energy. So Turkey shooting down a Russian jet would probably have massive repercussions for their energy sector. I doubt they would want to do that.

BROWN: That would make sense. Julia Ioffe, thank you so much.

IOFFE: Thank you.

BROWN: And new details now about what happened in the final moments before the Oregon community college shooter took his own life.

Plus, reaction to the news that the shooter made regular trips to the gun range with his mother. I'll speak live with a woman who has struggled raising a mentally ill son about the tendency to blame parents in these tragedies. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:00] BROWN: We are getting new details about how police responded when they arrived at last week's deadly shooting rampage in Oregon. Today the local prosecutor revealed that detectives shot the gunman before he headed into a classroom and killed himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want everyone to know of the selfless acts of these officers that they made in responding to this scene. They had little regard for their own personal safety, and they saved many, many lives that day with their heroic acts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And we also know that the gunman and his mother shared a fascination with guns. They both also had a developmental disorder Asperger's syndrome which we know has not been linked to violence in various studies.

Joining me via Skype from Boise, Idaho, Eliza Long, author of the viral blog post "I am Adam Lanza's mother." She wrote it in 2012 after the Sandy Hook shooting about how she identified with the mother of the shooter in that case. Also with me is research psychologist and assistant professor of psychology at Cornell University Peggy Drexler. Thank you both for coming on.

A lot to discuss here. Eliza, I'm going to start with you because I'm sure every time something like this happens it feels personal. You have a son with bipolar disorder. What is your reaction about what we have learned about the Oregon shooter's mother, about how she advised others online about Asperger's and autism and how she posted about guns in her home?

ELIZA LONG, AUTHOR, I AM ADAM LANZA'S MOTHER: Well, first and foremost, my heart just goes out to all of the victims. But that does include Chris Mercer and his mother must be just terribly overwhelmed right now, both with the tragedy of losing her own child, but also with the larger tragedy.

Yes, I do see these mass shootings through a different lens, through the lens of a mother. And my biggest concern is that it seems like so many other parents, Laurel Harper, was trying to get help for her son, and she was even a medical professional. She was a nurse. So parents across the United States are struggling to find treatment and options for their children, and the only time we ever really seem to ever talk about mental health is in the context of these horrific mass shootings. And as we know, people with mental illness are not more likely to be more violent than the general population. In fact, they're likely to be the victim of violence more than the general population. Si my heart just goes out to her today.

BROWN: And you have been a part of that fight, Eliza, for your son trying to get his treatment.

Peggy, I'm going to bring you in on this because there have been people who point the finger at the mother, at the gunman's mother, for allowing him to keep guns in the home, for going to the shooting range with him while knowing he had mental health issues. We don't know what, but we've learned from "New York Times" he went to a psychiatric hospital. What do you say about that? Do you think that's fair?

[15:50:11] PEGGY DREXLER, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: I don't think it's fair necessarily to blame the mother that she raised this monster, or that she raised a killer. I do think she used bad judgment. I think that it was very difficult for her to see what his problems were. As you read about it you see that she's an advice giver online rather than an advice taker. And so, there were signs that hopefully she could have picked up. But with Asperger's, although it's not a mental health problem, they are people with this disorder have a very difficult time picking up social cues.

BROWN: And we know the mother has said online that she had it as well as her son.

DREXLER: Right. Right. And I think that she very much wanted things to be fine. And put herself in the position of someone who had it made, that the son was going to go onto finances, he was going to go onto film, that she had really desperately to the point of denial hoped that she had cured his problem.

BROWN: And by the way, he was 26 years old. He was an adult.

Liza, I want to bring you back in if we still have a connection with you. What kind of advice would you have for the mother? You know, as you point out she lost her son and also in the midst of all this, in the wake of it, there are these accusations. And I'm sure she's asking herself a lot of questions through all of this.

LONG: Right. Pamela, you make a very good point that he was in fact 26 years old. This is something I think people don't really understand. When parents are care givers for their adult children, which is often the case, in many cases we really can't get our children the help that they need. Not only because that help doesn't exist, but also because as an adult Chris would have had the right to refuse treatment just like Adam Lanza could have. And in so many cases for parents, the standard in order to get your child care is imminent threat of harm to self or others.

This is just a really backward way that we handle mental illness in our society. This reactive crisis they have swayed of handling mental illness. It means far too many people actually go to prison or homeless on the streets when we know people can succeed, they can have happy productive lives. My own son once he had the correct diagnosis and treatment he's now back in a mainstream school, no threats of harm or violence or any behaviors like that since he got the correct diagnosis and treatment. That's what I would want for every family.

And I also think that as a mother, it's touching in a way that Laurel Harper did want to see the best in her son. And that she was always focusing on the positives. Because it can be very challenging. I know some of the things I read she admitted to having some significant challenges especially when Chris was not taking his medication.

BROWN: And also there's so much talk about the mother, but what about the father here, Peggy? Because we know that the father he was divorced from the mother, that he didn't live in the same state, hadn't seen his son in a while. What kind of a role do you think he plays in all of this, if any?

DREXLER: He has a huge responsibility. He said he didn't know about the guns and hasn't seen them for two years. But this is his son. And he had a responsibility to this boy as well. And I think that it's very easy to blame the mother for everything that goes wrong, but often in families where the father is absent it's very difficult for a single mother to bring up a boy who is troubled, who most likely might have threatened her. She might have been afraid of him as well.

These kids that are violent often threaten their parents. It's almost like the Stockholm syndrome that the mothers sort of go along with it because they're fearful. And they have no other options really.

BROWN: And someone I spoke to yesterday brought up the point that perhaps the mother is trying to fill a void with the absence of his father there and perhaps that's why they went shooting together. I mean, this is one theory. But a lot of, you know, a lot of questions here. And I don't think any --

DREXLER: But one thing that's important is it was something they bonded over together, which is very, very important. Unfortunately it was this. But I've seen mothers and -- single mothers and sons bond over music, over sports. This happened to be a destructive one.

BROWN: All right. Liza Long, Peggy Drexler, thank you so much. Really interesting conversation with both of you.

LONG: Thank you.

BROWN: And coming up, how close was ISIS to getting its hands on nuclear materials? New details on that straight ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:00] BROWN: Less than five months after the biker shootout that left nine people dead in Waco, Texas, the local paper reports none of the 177 people arrested are still in jail. The incident brought new scrutiny to biker clubs in the U.S. And tonight's "This is Life" with Lisa Ling, she goes inside a biker club in California.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA LING, CNN HOST, THIS IS LIFE: How are you? I'm Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tommy. Tommy Gun.

LING: Nice to meet you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pleasure.

LING: How often do you all get together? Your chapter?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As much as possible. Yes. As much as possible.

LING: Is there like an obligatory weekly meeting or anything like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I mean, every now and then, yes.

LING: Getting these guys to answer my questions isn't easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And that does it for me. I'm Pamela Brown.

"THE LEAD" with my friend and colleague Jake Tapper, starts right now.