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Bernie Sanders In Colorado; Palestinian Attackers Killed in Jerusalem; Army Officer Opposes Jail for Bergdahl; Bernie Sanders Speaks at Campaign Rally; Guns and Mental Health: The Law Vs. Reality. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 10, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:00:11] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: 4:00 Eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thank you so much for joining us.

We begin this hour with the latest in the run for the White House. Just three days until the first democratic presidential debate right here on CNN. And Bernie Sanders is trying to gain ground on Hillary Clinton. He is pushing for support today in Colorado. He is in Boulder, Colorado. He will be holding a rally there in just moments. You see people gearing up for him to take the podium.

It is on the University of Colorado's east campus. It will get under way this hour. The Vermont senator is expected to speak about income inequality, prescription drug costs, and his college affordability plan among other things.

Sunlen Serfaty is there. She joins me now live. In addition to those things, do you expect that he will take on his critics on how he's voted on gun control?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy, it's really been interesting, just this weekend, we have noticed a shift in Bernie Sanders. Last night starting in Tucson, he really deviated from his standard stump speech to really almost explain his past voting history on gun control.

Certainly his history is facing a lot more scrutiny with these most recent shootings. And certainly a big message push by the Hillary Clinton campaign, really to kind of capitalize on what they perceive as a weakness in him as a democratic candidate on this issue. So we've seen Sanders really explain, really admit openly that he is more conservative on this issue, but also noting his evolution on the issue, saying he's now for strengthening background checks and closing the gun show loophole.

Certainly this small shift in strategy just laying the groundwork for Tuesday's debate where definitely these differences in policy issues will most certainly come up. Poppy?

HARLOW: Absolutely. You've got a big crowd there. Any estimation of how many folks have come out? They certainly look like young voters. SERFATY: Definitely a lot of young voters here at the university,

here in Boulder. The campaign touting days ago that they had to actually move this event from another location to a more open-air location which could hold more people. They hope to get about 10,000 here. We don't know any specific crowd counts yet, but certainly people still coming in. The senator is supposed to speak within the hour.

I noticed that the first person, Poppy, arrived here five hours before the event to become the first person in line. So certainly an interesting crowd. A lot of people mentioning the excitement around the Sanders' campaign. But I did have to say, I did meet many people in the audience that are still undecided, people saying that I want to hear specifically what Bernie Sanders stands for and saying that a lot of them are going to be watching Tuesday's debate to see these policy distinctions. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes, they will. It's the first time they're going to get to see all five of these candidates side by side taking on tough questions and posing tough questions, I would assume, to one another. Sunlen, thank you, as always.

Earlier today, Donald Trump speaking to a fired up crowd, also of thousands of people. You see him right there. The Republican frontrunner making his first presidential campaign stop in the state of Georgia. He appears to be wooing support also from African- Americans. He met before this rally today with a group of black pastors and businessmen and women. Herman Cain who made his own White House bid in 2012 was there. Political reporter M.J. Lee has more on his big day in Georgia.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Hey, Poppy. Donald Trump just wrapped up quite the campaign rally here in Georgia. This was the first time that he had campaigned in this state. There were thousands of people that came to see him speak, and he really seemed to be feeding off of the energy from the crowd. He delivered multiple applause lines including when he said that as president, he would repeal Obamacare. That was something that his supporters were really into hearing. He also went after many of his rivals including Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton.

Something else that he addressed, Poppy, was whether or not he is planning to perhaps leave the race any time soon. He wanted to make it crystal clear that that is not going to happen. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I love this. I love the people. I love the country. We're never, ever getting out of this deal, OK? Ever. Ever! We're winning. We're going to take it to Cleveland where we have the convention. And after that, we're going to beat Hillary or whoever it is so badly, so badly - thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:05:20]

LEE: Trump also went after Hillary Clinton. She, of course, will be participating in the first democratic debate next week in Las Vegas. While the Democrats are doing that, Donald Trump will have a pretty packed campaign schedule. And for the time being, he's making it clear that he's in this for the long haul. Campaigning in a state like Georgia sends a signal that he's not just preoccupied with states like Iowa and New Hampshire and that when it comes time, he wants to be ready to go strong in the month of March as well.

HARLOW: All right. M.J. Lee for us there in Georgia, thank you, M.J.

Do not miss what you see on your screen. That is the first democratic presidential debate Tuesday, 8:30 Eastern, only right here on CNN.

Coming up next, we're keeping a very close eye on presidential candidate Bernie Sanders' rally. He is expected to take the podium there live in Colorado any minute. As soon as he does, we will take you there live.

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HARLOW: You're taking a look there at Colorado. You have someone at the podium about to introduce presidential candidate Bernie Sanders as our Sunlen Serfaty reported earlier.

It looks like an absolutely beautiful picture-perfect day in Colorado to hear from the Vermont senator who is making the rounds coming from Arizona yesterday, Colorado today. As he makes his way west to Las Vegas for the CNN democratic debate on Tuesday night. We'll keep a very close eye on that for you.

[16:10:00]

Well, there is still no claim of responsibility in Turkey's deadliest terror attack in more than 90 years. But the prime minister of Turkey says there are signs now pointing to two suicide bombers. What we know at this hour, at least 97 people were killed, 400 more injured when two bombs went off. You see it there.

It all happened during a peace rally in the capital of Ankara. The attack just weeks before Turkey's parliamentary elections and also amid the country's growing role in the fight against ISIS.

CNN senior international correspondent Arwa Damon reports.

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ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): This is the scene of where the explosions took place. Forensic teams now on the ground. The police have it cordoned off. You can see the force of the blast and the fact that the windows were blown out on the train station, and people said that the sheer force of the explosions shook buildings for quite a distance around.

Many people very concerned at this stage that the death toll is only going to rise. People are coming, stopping, looking at the scene. Everyone around us right now very somber at this stage. The country very much reeling from the impact of this very, very concerned about what it means and whether or not there will be more violence.

And, of course, the families and loved ones of those who perished in this attack, understandably right now, in mourning, along with the entire nation. The prime minister (INAUDIBLE) coming out and declaring a three-day mourning period. In a press conference where he also vowed to bring the perpetrators of this attack to justice, saying that initial reports - he was saying specifically it has been reported that there were two suicide attacks. Not 100% confirmed, but it does seem at this stage as if the government is speculating and seems to believe that these were two attacks carried out by suicide bombers.

The prime minister also calling for solidarity, urging people, leading figures to try and refrain from potentially inflammatory rhetoric. The country is at a very sensitive stage politically speaking with another round of parliamentarian election coming up on November 1st.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Ankara.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Arwa, thank you very much. We'll bring you the latest on that as we have it.

Just ahead, though, to politics, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders facing off with three other Democrats. All five of them want to be president of the United States. They will take the stage together on Tuesday night only right here on CNN.

We're going to take a look at what they need to do to move their campaigns forward ahead with historian Julian Belzer.

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[16:16:23]

HARLOW: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is beefing up security in Jerusalem in anticipation of potentially more violence after an extremely volatile week.

There were two deadly attacks today alone outside of the gates of the old city. Israeli police say that a Palestinian man was killed after he stabbed two officers. Earlier security forces say a Palestinian teenager stabbed two Israelis before police opened fire and killed him.

CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman joins us now from Jerusalem. Ben, I was there in the old city just about a month ago, and I could not have felt safer. Things have changed so much. Why the escalation in violence?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this goes back to the situation on the temple mount or the (inaudible) as it's known to Muslims. That's because for decades, there was what was called the status quo where there was an understanding that Muslims would worship on the temple mount, and the Jews would not be worshipping in it.

Increasingly, there are Jewish groups that want to have the right to worship within the compound of the temple mount, and there's been a lot of Palestinian Muslim resistance to it, which has resulted in mounting tensions. There are many Palestinians who believe that Israel basically wants to divide the temple mount between Muslims and Jews, and they're very opposed to that. But if you go beyond that, because really that's just one tree in the forest of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict going back decades. And the fact of the matter is that time and time again, the United States and others have tried to solve this problem and have failed time and time again. And increasingly, many people feel, Palestinians particularly, that there's no hope for a resolution of this conflict.

So many of the young - and it's important to keep in mind that according to the Palestinian Census Bureau - 70 percent of the Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank is under the age of 29. They've seen nothing other than living under Israeli rule, and there is a sense among many of them that they have no option other than to resort to violence, to protest, to clashes. So the particular flare-up we're seeing right now is for a particular reason, but there's a long, historical story that's behind this constant outbreak of violence for one reason or another.

HARLOW: There certainly is. And you have, you know, so many people, especially in the Old City, in those quarters next to one another with such, you know, such different beliefs, and these clashes have arisen before.

Ben Wedeman, thank you, as always.

Back in the United States, in just three days, five Democrats who want to be the next president will meet in Las Vegas. Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, Martin O'Malley, Jim Webb and Lincoln Chaffee will square off on that debate stage. It will be the first democratic presidential debate of this campaign season. You can see it only right here on CNN Tuesday at 8:30 p.m. Eastern Time.

Let's talk about it with presidential historian and professor Julian Zelizer of Princeton University. Thank you for being here, my friend, as always. This will be the first time you've got all five of them on the stage. And two of the names are really well known, and the three others not so well known. What is key for them to do to stand out?

JULIAN ZELIZER, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, for Hillary Clinton, it's this ongoing effort to show her personality, to connect with voters, and to talk about issues other than the e-mail scandal. For Bernie Sanders, the challenge is to show that he's not too far left to be a presidential candidate.

[16:20:07]

HARLOW: Even though he's a self-described socialist. ZELIZER: Even though he is and to show that his issues will resonate

in a general election. O'Malley wants to just show that he can compete with these other two giants. While Webb and Chaffee literally have to introduce themselves to an electorate that probably doesn't know they'll be in the debate.

HARLOW: You're a historian, so what does history tell us about people, especially in debates, so from sort of the mid-'70s on, that have to introduce themselves like a Chaffee or a Webb versus reintroduce themselves, change the narrative about themselves to the public?

ZELIZER: It's very difficult to have any game-changing moments in debates. I think when these have an impact, it's not introducing yourself. It's not really transforming how people think of you. What you want to avoid are mistakes. And that's what we remember, the gaffes like when Gerald Ford makes a gaffe about saying the Soviet Union doesn't control Eastern Europe in 1976. So the candidates in some ways want to introduce themselves, but the key is not to make an embarrassing mistake.

HARLOW: I read Hilary Rosen's op-ed on cnn.com this week. I find it fascinating she's a big supporter of Hillary Clinton so a defender of hers. Here's a part of what she wrote. "Hillary Clinton needs to convince people that being a realist and a pragmatist isn't selling out, that it is building on the progress made to date under President Obama and positioning us for a better future."

She's talking about the fact that here you've got Bernie Sanders who comes out tougher on the banks, and he wants to reinstitute Glass- Steagall, for example, and she doesn't. She has to convince people that sort of slow and steady wins the race here and not a radical change.

ZELIZER: No one likes politicians who say they're pragmatic and that's their selling point. This is what she faced in 2008 against Barack Obama. People love ideas. They love charisma. They love the tough fighters. But her selling point is I'll get this done. I know how the system works. I'll figure out how to sell these ideas, to fight for them, but that's hard. You know, people watch these in the same way they watch a film. They're looking for heroes.

HARLOW: That's not change you can believe in, right, as was his line.

ZELIZER: Right.

HARLOW: And it doesn't always work. When you look at Bernie Sanders, yes, I mean, he doesn't shy away from the fact that he is a self- described socialist. But he is going to face a huge uphill battle on guns. And how he voted when he was in the House and as a senator on guns, namely voting against that Brady Bill in the early '90s. How does he do that?

ZELIZER: Well, there's a bit of an irony. I mean, the main challenge would be that he has to show he's not too left on most of the issues -

HARLOW: But on this issue, he's not too right.

ZELIZER: Exactly, and that's an issue that matters a lot right now, and I think he can't just put that aside. So I think he's going to have to talk about what he'd do proactively on gun restrictions and to show to the democratic primary electorate that even with his record, he is someone who understands these are changing times.

HARLOW: It's interesting with Jim Webb, you have someone who is a bit more conservative on some of these issues. Is that going to help him stand out from the pack?

ZELIZER: I don't think so. I think Webb has had trouble gaining any traction. And he's dealing with a real heavyweight with Hillary Clinton. And now these other candidates. He might try to sell himself as a bit more hawkish on foreign policy -

HARLOW: He's got a lot of military experience.

ZELIZER: Yes, but I'm not sure those are the issues that resonate. People care about the economy. They care about fixing Washington. And I'm not sure that's his set of issues.

HARLOW: Obviously Hillary Clinton is going to be asked about why she flip-flopped this week on TPP, on the big Asia trade deal. I mean, this is something she came out 45 separate times as secretary of state and since supporting, now a few days before the debate as it looks like Joe Biden might jump in, as Bernie Sanders gets more traction, she says I am not for this.

At the same time, you have Lincoln Chaffee who I had on the program this week who changed parties twice who could also be accused of flip- flopping. Does that matter to voters, flip-flopping?

ZELIZER: It depends how you handle it. Anyone who's been in politics flip-flops. It's called changing your position, adjusting to changing times. We're seeing how the electorate moves on to new issues. It's about how you explain it. If you try to ignore it, pretend you're not doing it or pretend there's no change, voters will tag you as a flip- flopper. But if you explain the change, you justify it, and you defend where you are, I think you can make a compelling case.

HARLOW: Is there historical, you know, example of that you can think of?

ZELIZER: Sure. I mean, every presidential candidate from FDR to Ronald Reagan shifted dramatically on a lot of issues. You know, Reagan came out cutting taxes in 1981. By '82 and '83, he was raising taxes. And he justified that. One more, Ronald Reagan was the guy who fought against negotiations with the Soviet Union throughout the 1970s. 1987, he signs a historic pact with the Soviets. That's what we remember him for.

HARLOW: Sometimes campaigning for president is a whole lot different than being president.

ZELIZER: Exactly. HARLOW: Julian Zelizer, good to have you on. Thank you.

ZELIZER: Thank you.

HARLOW: As always. We'll be right back.

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[16:28:27]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HARLOW: Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl could be a step closer to potentially avoiding jail for those desertion and misconduct charges. According to "The Wall Street Journal," the officer who oversaw Bergdahl's Article 32 hearing last month is recommending the lowest level of disciplinary action against Bergdahl.

It is a key development because Bergdahl could spend the rest of his life behind bars if he is court-martialed and convicted. He went AWOL from his army unit in Afghanistan in 2009. He was then captured by the Taliban. He was freed five years later in a swap for five detainees from Guantanamo Bay.

After he came back home, the Army charged him with desertion and misconduct.

Our Ed Lavandera has been following this story from the beginning. He joins me on the phone. Ed, how significant of a development is this?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (ON THE PHONE): Well, I think it's a significant step, but it's obviously something that's still going to take quite a bit of time to play out. But just to kind of give everybody some background to exactly what's going on here, remember a couple of weeks ago Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl appeared in the Article 32 hearing, just basically a grand jury type of proceeding to determine whether or not he would face a court-martial for those two very serious criminal charges in the military court system.

We do know that the preliminary report that was made after that hearing has been completed and is now making its way up the chain of command, but we haven't really known exactly what is in that report until the defense attorneys for Bowe Bergdahl release documents where you get a better sense of what it is that the presiding officer over that case.

And in those documents, defense attorneys say that they agree with the preliminary reports of conclusions about resolving this at the lowest level of disposition.

[16:30:24] And also that there should not be confinement for Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, which is obviously the most significant part of all of this.

HARLOW: Ed Lavandera reporting for us from the phone. Ed, thank you very much. I want to bring in CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos.

Legally speaking, Danny, how significant is this, one army officer recommending that Bergdahl face the lowest possible punishment, no jail time or very little jail time? And how big of a blow is that to just the Army's overall case?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's not the final case. The case still has to go up to command where another decision will be made whether to accept that recommendation. But it is very significant because the officer has made a recommendation, and the best analogy would be we have several systems where you have a felony court, a more serious court, and misdemeanor court. And down that path, the recommendation is essentially for this case to remain in misdemeanor court where the penalties are capped essentially at a year confinement or a bad conduct discharge.

Now, what a difference between that and a general court-martial where the potential penalties are life and a dishonorable discharge. Now, the discharge may not sound like a big difference, but it can make a difference when we're talking about V.A. benefits.

HARLOW: Right.

CEVALLOS: And other collateral things that come as a result of all these different varieties of discharge. So, this is a very significant recommendation for a lower level of punishment.

HARLOW: Is there any precedent here for a lower level of punishment in something like this? I know it's not a typical case.

CEVALLOS: This is a very unusual case. It's not unusual because procedurally, this officer could have recommended either a special court's martial, which is a lower court and a general court's martial which is a higher court. And the analogy would be, in the civilian system, this happens every day, hundreds of times where a judge, in a preliminary hearing, say, decides to either hold it over for felony court or remand it back down to misdemeanor court because there isn't anything evidence of the more serious felonies.

HARLOW: All right. Danny Cevallos, thank you very much. As we learn more on this, we will bring it to you. I appreciate it.

But right now I want to take you live to Colorado. That is where you have presidential candidate Bernie Sanders speaking. Let's listen in.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I'm immensely proud of this. We have more people, more individuals, contributing to our campaign, 650,000 people, and you know what the average contribution is? Not a million, not $1,000. It is 30 bucks!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

I don't represent the interests of corporate America, and I don't represent the interests of the billionaire class. We don't want their money. We're going to do it on our own! (CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

This is a people's campaign, and you, brothers and sisters, are part of a political revolution!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

This is a campaign that is taking on the establishment at every level of society.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

From Wall Street which in 2008 caused the worst financial crisis in the modern history of our country to corporate America whose greed is destroying our economy, for the drug companies who are selling us the highest priced medicine in the world, make it impossible for millions to get the medicine they need, we are going to take all of them on. Now, here is a really radical concept. You ready for a radical idea?

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

HARLOW: Oh. I think we got him back. Let's listen back in.

SANDERS: -- a vision in which we had a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and that is what this campaign is about!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

[16:35:05] Our job together is to create a government which works for all people and not just a handful of billionaires. And let me now tell you something that no other presidential candidate will tell you. And it's a very important point. And that is there is no president, not Bernie Sanders, not Barack Obama, not anybody that you can think of who can effectively transform our country and protect the interests of working people in the middle class and low-income people in the way that has to happen.

No one person can do it. And the reason for that -- and we don't talk about it, the media doesn't talk about it very often, but the reason is pretty clear. The powers that be, Wall Street, corporate America, the major campaign donors, the corporate media, have so much power that we cannot make the changes that we need unless millions of people come together, stand up!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

And what we have got to say as a people, we're sick and tired of corporate greed! And we demand a government which represents all of us and not just the 1 percent. And my point here is to ask for your help not just during the campaign, and I certainly do ask for your help and your support, but we need your help the day after the election.

Because what we are fighting for is not going to happen unless millions of people demand that it happens. The big-money interests win when voter turnout is low and when people are not paying attention to what goes on. We win when voter turnout is high and when people are focused on the real issues impacting their lives.

Let me take a brief moment to mention to you what I suspect most of you already know, and that is --

HARLOW: All right, you're listening to presidential candidate Bernie Sanders speaking at the University of Colorado East Campus. We are going to take a quick break. We'll be back with much more of his comments live after this.

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[16:41:56] HARLOW: Right now, presidential candidate Bernie Sanders speaking live in Colorado, talking about gun control following the mass shooting in Oregon. Some have said this is his Achilles heel given his voting record on gun control while in the House and Senate. Let's listen to what he's saying.

SANDERS: -- a background check. And there is widespread support to ban semiautomatic assault weapons.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

Guns which have no other purpose but to kill people. So, there is -- and I'm not going to tell you that everybody in America agrees with every one of these ideas -- but what I will tell you is that poll after poll tells us that gun owners and non-gun owners believe in common-sense approaches which make sure that we keep guns out of the hands of people who should not have those guns.

And the other aspect of this crisis is to acknowledge that we need a revolution in mental health delivery. You know, if somebody, God forbid, gets into an automobile accident and they get injured, the ambulance comes and takes them to what is almost always very good emergency care. We have great emergency rooms all over this country. And people's lives get saved by very skilled practitioners.

But yet the truth is that in America today, sadly, but truly, there are thousands of people walking the streets in Vermont, Colorado who are suicidal and have homicidal thoughts. And yet for those people, it is very difficult in many cases to access the care they need.

And our job as a nation is to make certain that when somebody is dealing with a mental health crisis, it doesn't matter whether you have insurance or not. But what matter -- it doesn't matter whether you have the money or not. What matters is that you get the care when you need it, not two months from today.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

Now, if we do all of those things you're not going to solve every shooting in America, but I think it will take us a significant step forward, and that is what we should be doing.

[16:45:10] Let me also address another issue of enormous consequence in this country. And that is the issue of immigration reform. I know a little bit about the issue because my dad came to this country from Poland at the age of 17, not speaking English, and not having a nickel in his pocket. But he was able, along with my mom, to raise two kids in a way that would have been --

HARLOW: All right. As Bernie Sanders, Democratic presidential candidate, continues to speak there in Colorado, we are going to take a quick break.

On the other side, we are going to dive deep into what he was just talking about, and that is gun legislation in this country and some of those loopholes in it, especially when it comes to those who are mentally ill. That conversation next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:50:22] HARLOW: All right. Bernie Sanders continuing to speak there in Colorado in front of a crowd of thousands at the University of Colorado east campus.

Just moments ago, though, he spoke at length about gun-control legislation in this country. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: -- after mass killings.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

We have a hard time understanding how people can --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: How is it? Heather, how long is this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: -- or into a school room or into a movie theater and take out a gun and kill and kill and kill. Condolences and prayers are not enough. We have got to do something meaningful to address this crisis.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

Gun violence in our country, as everybody here knows, is a very serious issue and one which tragically Colorado is all too familiar with. The attacks in Columbine and Aurora have put your state on the map nationally in a way that I know you did not want to happen.

Now, I am not going to stand before you today and tell you that there are easy answers to this crisis either from a public policy point of view or from a political point of view, because if I told you that, I would not be telling you the truth.

But the fact is that there is a different way that we can address this issue. And that is that instead of people yelling at each other, we have got to come together on common-sense approaches which, in fact, the vast majority of the American people support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right. You heard Bernie Sanders there speaking about gun control and different legislative measures put forth. We should note in the wake of the Oregon mass shooting all 14 of those guns linked to the shooter were legally purchased by the shooter or by his family members.

Officials tell us here at CNN that family members told investigators the 26-year-old gunman suffered mental health issues.

Current laws on mental illness and gun ownership are very complicated, and they contain many exemptions. Let's compare the laws and the reality when it comes to mental health and guns.

Attorney and CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos penned a fascinating op- ed on it this week. He joins me now.

Matthew Horace is also with us, a former ATF executive.

Danny, to you first. How often are people mentally ill but not, quote-unquote, adjudicated, mentally ill and therefore they fall through the loophole and can buy as many guns as they want?

CEVALLOS: This is a very small category when you consider the gigantic universe of people who have some form of mental illness.

And we have to remember, the American Psychological Association has conducted studies and said that the vast majority and I quote, "vast majority" of people with mental illness are non-violent. So, this creates a real problem in crafting legislation that surgically hones in on the people who are likely to be violent but based on mental illness which, again, the numbers show that the vast majority may not be violent, but the problem is, what about the ones who are?

HARLOW: Who are.

To you, Matthew, the statute, as it stands now, excludes anyone who voluntarily commits themselves to get help. And I understand that from the perspective of you want people to go get help, right? You don't want them to feel like maybe they shouldn't because they won't be allowed to do things or their guns will get taken away.

But should it be the case that if you're voluntarily committed, then this doesn't apply to you?

MATTHEW HORACE, FORMER EXECUTIVE, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS: Well, I may feel like it shouldn't be the case, but I think we're up against too much opposition from different sides of the aisle. People don't have any incentive to answer the form truthfully at this point.

HARLOW: Let's talk about that form. I want to pull it up because Matthew, you bring up this ATF form 4473. And there is a question on there. [16:55:00] This is a question that is asked, right, if you're trying

to buy a gun. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective which includes a determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority that you are a danger to yourself or to others or are incompetent to manage your own affairs or have ever been committed to a mental institution?

It seems pretty comprehensive. You say it's woefully inadequate. Why?

HORACE: Well, it's inadequate because as Danny says, it only represents a very small portion of the universe. If you look at the numbers of people that suffer from mental illness both serious mental illness and not so serious, they far exceed the numbers of people that actually fall into that category.

And their option is to answer the question truthfully or not. If they answer it not truthfully, they don't get the gun, and they can't commit the act. If they answer it truthfully, they don't get the gun. So, you know, what choice do we have?

HARLOW: Danny, there's this -- you bring up in the op-ed fascinating key 1997 Supreme Court decision really at the heart of this. What is that?

CEVALLOS: The case is Prince v. United States, but there's the general constitutional idea that the federal government cannot force the states to enforce federal government policy. Now, why does that matter?

In the case of guns, this database that we're talking about where we supposedly store mental illness information, the NICS, is a federal database run by the FBI. That database is only as powerful as the information in it, and it relies on the 50 states to provide that information because they all have the discretion to do so if they want to or not at all. The result is a patchwork form of reporting.

So, again, that database may have some names in it. It may not have all the names.

HARLOW: And as you noted, a lot of what's in the database are paper files, et cetera, that, you know, are not all digital and certainly not all in one place.

CEVALLOS: The government is rarely the first adapter of technology. So there are many paper files.

HARLOW: Danny Cevallos, thank you very much.

You can look at Danny's op-ed on CNN.com.

Matthew Horace, to you as well, appreciate it.

Coming up next at the top of the hour, breaking news on the Benghazi commission. That House Select Committee looking into the death of those four Americans in that Benghazi attack. A live report from Washington. You will not want to miss this development next.

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