Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Democratic Candidates Preparing for CNN Debate; Journalist in Iran Sentenced; Jason Chaffetz, Daniel Webster Running for Speaker; Turkey's Traumatic Weekend of Protests And Deadly Twin Bombings; New Reports Released On The Death Of Tamir Rice. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 11, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:01]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is Las Vegas, Nevada. This is the site of the first democratic debate. The very first time all five candidates will be on the same stage at the same time to face off on the issues. How are they similar? How are they different? It all happens here Tuesday night.

I'm John Berman, out in front of the Wynn Las Vegas. Again, just two days from now this face-off. The first time we've seen them debate in this election cycle. A crucial moment. Just a short time ago, we unveiled the lectern set up on stage, inside the debate hall. Hillary Clinton was on top of the fold. She will be center stage. To her right, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders who is leading in the key state of New Hampshire. On her left, former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley, a lot at stake for him. Former Virginia Senator Jim Webb and former Rhode Island Governor Lincoln Chafee, they will book end the stage.

There's a brand-new poll out today which does show Hillary Clinton out on top 19 points ahead of Bernie Sanders right there. If Vice President Joe Biden enters the race, he would be in third place. The other candidates far, far behind at this point. Now, the Biden candidacy it is still an if as we sit here this afternoon. No word out of Delaware yet. That is where Joe Biden has been gathered at his house with family, with friends potentially, with advisers talking about a potential run.

We simply do not know what he has decided or if he has decided yet. But back here in Las Vegas, the preparations are being made inside the debate hall either way. CNN's senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta is in the Wynn Las Vegas right now where you can see the beautiful room, the beautiful setup. All CNN staff in there working to get it ready, Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. You can see it unfolding behind me. As a matter of fact, right now, our CNN team is hard at work setting the stage for Tuesday night's debate, the first democratic debate of this presidential season.

There are the lecterns up on stage right now. You can see the one in the middle, that will be for former secretary of state Hillary Clinton who is the obvious democratic front-runner at this point but to her right as you said, Vermont's independent Senator Bernie Sanders. He will be on stage. I think that will be one of the big flash points that everybody is going to be watching on Tuesday night.

Bernie Sanders, he's been filling stadiums and arenas and auditoriums. He had 9,000 people in Colorado over the weekend. He's really taken this democratic field by storm and surprised a lot of people by capturing the imagination of a lot of people in the progressive wing of the democratic party.

But just to show you more of what's happening in this room, behind me is a giant screen where CNN's Don Lemon will be helping co-host the festivities Tuesday night. He's going to be taking questions from Facebook users who are going to be participating in the debate. Then up on stage behind me there's more of what you could see in terms of our CNN host Anderson Cooper. He'll be behind that lectern right there, then off to the side, CNN's Dana Bash and Juan Carlos Lopez -- they will be joining in with other questions.

You mentioned it, John, the one person who might have the most at stake on Tuesday night is the former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley. He has really struggled to rise in the polls. He hasn't gained much traction in this race but he's a candidate that people thought would do better at this stage of the campaign.

And he said earlier this morning on "State of the Union" what he needs to do to se himself apart on Tuesday night. Here's what he had to say --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN O'MALLEY, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Fifteen years of executive experience which I alone will have on that stage of actually accomplishing progressive things. It's not about the words, it's about the actions, things we did in Maryland to pull together, new consensus after new consensus, to pass a living wage, to pass comprehensive gun safety legislation, to pass the dream act and marriage equality. It's about the doing, not the saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, when it comes to the issues -- the potential flash points on Tuesday night, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has been talking in recent days about his opposition to the Iraq war back in 2002, noting that Hillary Clinton was in favor of the Iraq war, so sort of echoes of that battle royale between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton back in 2008 and also that transpacific trade deal, John. That's also a major flash point, Hillary Clinton used to be in favor of it, now she's against it. Bernie Sanders very much saying he's against it.

So those will be two issues to watch. Then of course, the x factor on Tuesday night, as you said earlier is Vice President Joe Biden. He's in Delaware, he's trying to decide whether or not he wants to run for president. A lot of signs, a lot of tea leaves that perhaps he might jump in. And John, the rules are written as such he can basically show up here in Las Vegas almost at the last minute, perhaps not the last minute but virtually the last minute and join this debate. And I think I saw lurking off stage, John, a lectern. Doesn't have Joe Biden's name on it but there's an extra waiting in the wing just in case. That will be very interesting if perhaps a sixth lectern is moved up on stage Tuesday night. It will make for fascinating political television, John.

[16:05:08>]

BERMAN: I am sure they will have room for him if he decides to come here by Tuesday night. Jim Acosta, thank you so much.

The candidates looking for ways to differentiate themselves from each other right now. One issue that will come up -- gun control. Gun violence sadly is an issue very much front and center in the nation right now.

One candidate who has a more complicated path than some would imagine on the issue, Senator Bernie Sanders. He says if elected he would want to strengthen and expand an instant check program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We keep shouting at each other, which is what's been going on for 20 years and it's going nowhere and kids on campuses and children in schools are being slaughtered. What I think there needs to be is a dialogue.

Here's what I do believe (INAUDIBLE) I believe what I would call common sense gun reform plus a revolution in mental health making sure that the people having a nervous breakdown or are suicidal or homicidal, they get the care they need when they need it, I think there are vast majority of the American people can support an agenda composed of those features.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Bernie Sanders is from Vermont, a state where you have a lot of gun owners, a lot of hunters there. He does have a varied record on gun control legislation. He's had votes to ban assault weapons. Although I believe he's also voted against that. He voted to close the so-called gun show loophole. He opposed a five-day waiting period for gun purchases. He voted against the Brady Bill in the '90s which did mandate federal background checks. How will this play into the democratic debate, the democratic primaries?

I want to bring in CNN political David Shalian and CNN senior political reporter Nia Malika-Henderson. Nia, you talk about gun control. Typically among Democrats there is a lot of agreement, I suppose, except for some hunting states. Vermont is one of these hunting states. And Bernie Sanders, you don't get much more liberal on many issues than Bernie Sanders except for gun control. NIA MALIKA-HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right.

If you talk to people in Vermont in many ways they credit the NRA support of Bernie Sanders within that first congressional race with sort of putting him on the path to where he is now. He's always been against a waiting period, a federal waiting period for gun purchases.

He feels like it's been up to the states. What you've seen from Hillary Clinton is really an attempt to highlight this issue. She's come out for tougher sort of closing the gun show loophole. Obama has said that he's going to consider that even though he put it aside in 2013.

This is very much an issue she wants to highlight. She knows it's Bernie Sanders' weakness. That's why you've heard from him in these recent speeches talking about gun control, saying he will be tough on gun control.

BERMAN: How much, how far and how much do voters care about it in terms of this differentiation you might see from Hillary Clinton?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: So the issues are going to be narrower where they differentiate. Such as here's one that is an example liability from gun manufacturers, that's something that Bernie Sanders throughout much of this campaign has defended his position that gun manufacturers need not be liable. That's like saying if somebody uses a hammer, the person that made the hammer to hit that nail is responsible.

However, this morning on "Meet the Press" he all of a sudden said, "oh, maybe we should take a look at that." So Bernie Sanders, it's very interesting because his whole brand is consistency even if when he's not in step with the party on this issue of guns, John. Yet this morning before this debate where he knows Hillary Clinton's going to want to draw a contrast, all of a sudden says maybe we should take a look at that part of the (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: How much does Hillary Clinton want to be talking about Bernie Sanders? Do you think she wants to be up on the stage highlighting his record or do you think Hillary wants to continuously veer the conversation to what she wants to do with her record?

MALIKA-HENDERSON: I think she probably wants to do a little bit of both. I think they want to show contrast. She wants to come across as sort of the establishment candidate and also in some ways the moderate. She thinks that Bernie Sanders, the socialism tag doesn't work for him. She thinks that she's more of a pragmatist, right. The practical democrat who can actually govern and get things done. She's never going to go on the attack against him because they know it doesn't work for her, it doesn't work for her when she was up against Obama but I think it's going to be about contrast.

CHALIAN: She can't afford to offend his supporters, right? That's the key. Hillary Clinton is not going to win by destroying Bernie Sanders. That is not her battle.

BERMAN: So let's talk about the podium that's backstage, the lectern that's backstage, the just add water lectern that if Joe Biden wants to show up here, he can use here. He's meeting with his family this weekend. They're having this discussion about whether he will get in the race, we don't know.

I'm not going to ask you David, is he any (INAUDIBLE), we don't know. But do you think that there will be a decision announced or leaked or discovered by Tuesday night?

[16:10:00]

CHALIAN: I'd be surprised. I know, mostly because, "a," as you said, his meetings this week, John, have been with the family. That is very difficult to leak. His staff is not involved. In fact, what happens in that very close knit family conversations, I don't think gets leaked.

I don't think he wants -- he's not participating in this debate. I don't think if he decides to get in, he wants to announce and then not be here. I think he'd rather sort of step on the debate after the fact and say, we've got a whole new chapter now of this race. You disagree.

BERMAN: I don't know. I think if he were to leak it beforehand, he could be this presence, this unassailable presence looming over the debate. Let me show you the latest polls right now. Hillary Clinton out in front, well in front of Bernie Sanders, by 19 points nationally. And Joe Biden is running third right now. He really hasn't changed. His position in the polls despite all this talk about Joe Biden getting in hasn't changed in a month.

MALIKA-HENDERSON: Which is in some ways surprising. He is a sitting vice president. His argument, I guess, for running would be that he would be really strong against Hillary Clinton and could take the wind out of her sales to rescue the democratic party from her but he's only at 16 percent, and he hasn't really moved. He's gone down, maybe up but he seems to have a ceiling at 20 percent. If he gets in, it would probably drop. These are probably the best poll numbers of his life and he's only 16 percent.

BERMAN: David Chalian, Nia Malika --Henderson, great to have you here with us. We'll have you here all week leading up to the debate, Tuesday night, the very first presidential debate. It is right here on CNN. 8:30 p.m. Eastern Time.

A lot of other news today. We'll be right back for some of that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CANCHOR: A "Washington Post" journalist imprisoned in Iran since July 2014 has been sentenced on espionage charges. The Islamic Society of North America reports that a judiciary spokesman told them a verdict had been handed down against "The Washington Post" Jason Rezaian who remains in prison despite an international outcry for his release.

[16:15:11] CNN investigative correspondent Chris Frates joins me now with the latest on this. Chris, what more are we learning? We all want to know what's the verdict here.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's the big question actually, Martin. What we know is that there isn't much there there. He didn't release a statement. They didn't tell us what the verdict was. And we don't even know what this sentence was.

Now, we know Rezaian was the post-Tehran bureau chief. He was detained in July of 2014. He was held there for months without being charged and he was eventually charged with these espionage charges. He's been detained longer than any journalist in the country's history. He's also been there longer than any of the hostages in the Iran hostage crisis. Now, we do know a State Department spokesman said officials there have seen news reports about the verdict, but they haven't received any official confirmation or details themselves.

So not even the State Department has any idea what he's been sentenced to. In a statement they said, "we're monitoring the situation closely, and we continue to call for all charges against Jason to be dropped and for him to be immediately released." Now, Jason's brother put out a statement where he said Jason was just doing his job. He was doing -- he was reporting. He did nothing wrong. There's no proof as to what has happened here. And he talked to CNN just recently. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALI REZAIAN, BROTHER OF JOURNALIST DETAINED IN IRAQ: Yes, Jason's innocent. He hasn't done anything, hasn't even been convicted even in Iran. So I don't understand why the United States should have to do anything for them to do the right thing. That being said, I don't have an opinion about the legal status or how that would be done. I just want my brother home. I know the other families want their families home. Everybody should be brought together. This is just a situation that's been horrible for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: So there are a total of three Americans being held in Iran. And secretary of state John Kerry has been talking with officials in that country about a possible prisoner swap.

So Martin, not a lot to know other than he has been sentenced. We don't know whether or not he's even gotten the verdict or whether his lawyer has to be able to appeal it so there's a lot of things that we need to continue to monitor here over the last few days but certainly people with "The Washington Post" and his family hope that this will be sorted out very soon.

SAVIDGE: Absolutely, Chris Prates, thank you very much.

Let's continue this discussion on the sentencing issue and bring in CNN's senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter. Brian, this morning, you had the opportunity to speak to the foreign editor of "The Washington Post." What do they say about this especially about the way it's been dragged out?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. We're talking 15 months now, as Chris just mentioned, longer than the Iranian hostage crisis. We've seen some politicians even go so far as to call Jason a hostage. Now editors of "The Post" has not gone that far. But they have become more and more frustrated every single month.

This morning, the foreign editor calling this entire treatment of Jason a sham. He also said that he gets the sense that Jason is less of a prisoner, more of a bargaining chip by the Iranian government. Here's what he said about the importance of keeping the story in the public sphere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUGLAS JEHL, "WASHINGTON POST" FOREIGN EDITOR: I think it's important that this case remain very much in the public sphere. We believe it's important that the president, the secretary of state and others repeat and put in the public sphere the fact that Jason has been held unconscionable long, longer, as you said in your introduction, than the U.S. hostages were held during the hostage crisis of 1979.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: You know the "Post" has been trying to gain access to Iran, in order to cover this story and in order to be at the court hearings that happened over the summer. They would like to be able to go visit Jason in jail but all of those requests by "The Washington Post" to be in the country have been denied.

In addition to the personal toll this has taken on Jason and his family, we should also mention, Marty, this has become a symbol of the dangers that journalists face all around the world in countries all around the world where they're trying to report on governments that are repressive, governments that are hostile toward journalists.

Unfortunately, Jason now a symbol of that. And we see the # free Jason thankfully trending today.

SAVIDGE: Brian Stelter, thank you very much for that.

STELTER: Thanks.

SAVIDGE: Pressure is building for this man to run for speaker of the House. But why is Paul Ryan saying no? Our political panel will weigh in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:23:27]

SAVIDGE: The pressure's still on Paul Ryan to run for House Speaker. The Wisconsin congressman told CNN today, his answer is still no. He's heard just about every pitch to take the speaker's job. Most of the GOP members say that they need him to resurrect the party that's in shambles. But that hasn't deterred Congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah who said he's still in the race to replace John Boehner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

You may be a fresh face, but do you really think you can bridge this enormous divide?

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ, RUNNING FOR HOUSE SPEAKER: Well, somebody's got to do it. I would hope that Paul Ryan would do it. He's said repeatedly that he won't. I do think there are other people that are better qualified, but I do think I bridge that gap. That's the case I'm making. If there's somebody better who can unite us, I'll support them. But you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. I right or wrong have thrown myself in there and said, hey, I think I can do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: He's right, somebody does have to do it. With me now Republican strategist Adam Goodman in Tampa, Florida. We should give you full disclosure here. You're a member of Florida Congressman Daniel Webster's inner circle and you work for him. And I understand that he too is running for speaker. Ryan says it's still no from him, so does that mean that Chaffetz and your man, Mr. Webster, have a good shot?

REP. ADAM GOODMAN, FLORIDA: Possibly but you know, first we have to consider that the Packers apparently won that football game that Ryan attended to. So maybe Ryan will reconsider exactly how he feels about life again.

[16:25:00]

What really happened last week was a reflection that I think Americans want not just a change in name for speaker. They want a fundamental change in the way Congress does business. They want things to happen again, they want things to get done again. I think it's less than a struggle over ideology than it is to try to find an answer to making that institution work. And what Harry Truman, 67 years ago referred to then and it would be accurate now, as the do-nothing congress.

Now there are a lot of reasons. We have to, as Republicans, deal with the president of the opposite party who seems to stymie Congress at every turn. But the fact remains we are not where we need to be in getting things done out of that institution. I think this could give us a shot at breaking new ground.

SAVIDGE: OK. So give me the 15-second pitch for Mr. Webster here. Besides just what you've outlined.

GOODMAN: Bottom line is Dan's been there before. He did the very same thing in the Florida House of Representatives as speaker of the house. It was a time when everyone was kind of down on the institution, things weren't getting done. He passed major reforms. Everyone was at the table. One of the most productive periods in modern-day history in Florida.

So he understands on the process itself how to actually reform things to make everyone feel empowered in the institution and actually things started to move in Florida. I think he could do the same thing in Washington, D.C.

SAVIDGE: And with no disrespect to the congressman, but if Paul Ryan suddenly, as you say, may have a change of heart, thanks to the outcome of that game, doesn't that completely wipe him, meaning Mr. Webster, out of any contention or reality?

GOODMAN: Well, that's something -- that's a great question. That's something obviously for the members of the House of Representatives to debate and obviously come to a resolution on. I do think it's very important that we do the long game here and not just say, well, if we elect this person over that person, Ryan over a Webster or a Webster or a Webster over gowdy, that we've solved a problem.

We need to fundamentally change our approach and, yes, if Ryan gets in, I think he's going to be a very strong play. But if he does not, I think this party really actually has a chance to turn the Harry Truman adage around to a get it done Congress.

SAVIDGE: Some have suggested -- we only got 30 seconds left so I apologize for that -- but this is really to take power away from the speaker's position. In other words, that they can't dominate much as they have over a party in the past.

GOODMAN: I think the speaker should be there to empower the thought thinkers in Congress, who really know what they're doing. Paul Ryan is tremendous on tax reform (INAUDIBLE) tremendous on financial markets (INAUDIBLE) on oversight.

You go down the list. I think the role of speaker doesn't necessary have to be the titular leader of Congress as opposed to the person who facilitates the talents that are already there to actually get things done. It could be a different kind of speaker.

SAVIDGE: And that may very much become the crux of the entire debate or standoff, depending on how things go. Adam Goodman, thank you very much for helping us in the conversation of Florida. Thank you.

GOODMAN: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: When it comes to being honest or trustworthy, polls show Hillary Clinton might run into trouble with voters. We'll take a look at just how much this could really hurt her. And how big of a part the Benghazi controversy plays in that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:30]

BERMAN: Las Vegas, Nevada, where so many dreams are made, but so many fortunes lost. Will that happen on the CNN debate stage, the very first Democratic debate of this election cycle? Five candidates take the stage Tuesday night right here on CNN. In one new development today that could play on that stage, new allegations about the House Select Committee on Benghazi. A former Republican investigator is accusing the panel of targeting Hillary Clinton. This is what Major Bradley Podliska said in an exclusive interview with CNN's Jake Tapper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What do you say to any viewers out there who think that you might have an ax to grind, but you're only talking because you were fired?

BRAD PODLISKA, FIRED BENGHAZI COMMITTEE STAFFER: As I said earlier, I have a conscience. There's wrongdoing here, and I think it needs to stop. And I do not want the investigation to end. I want the investigation to be re-focused back to its original purpose. The victims' families are owed the truth. Hillary Clinton has a lot of explaining to do. We however, do not need to shift resources to hyper-focus on Hillary Clinton. We didn't need to de-emphasize and in some cases drop the investigation on different agencies, different organizations, and different individuals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So the Chairman of the Benghazi Committee, Trey Gowdy, responded with a statement. He said, one month ago this staffer had a chance to bare his soul and raise his claim this committee was focused on Secretary Clinton in a legal document, not an interview, and he did not do it, nor did he mention Secretary Clinton at any time during his counseling for deficient performance when he was terminated or via his first lawyer who withdrew from representing him. So that is the side from the Benghazi Committee itself.

Joining me to talk about what this might mean in the first Democratic debate, CNN Political Commentators Patty Solis-Doyle, who once worked fro Hillary Clinton, Van Jones, and Democratic Strategist Nomiki Konst.

And so Patty, clearly the Clinton campaign and what you're hearing from Democratic officials, some of it is I told you so. This just goes to show. Kevin McCarthy two weeks ago said this was -- we have political gains against Hillary Clinton. Now we have a Republican investigator inside this committee saying it was targeting Hillary Clinton.

PATTI SOLIS DOYLE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

BERMAN: Is this just what you've been saying all along?

DOYLE: It is. It's now clear that this is now clear that this is a political witch hunt. What the Republican by the way -- major in the U.S. air force has done is put the onus on Trey Gowdy on October 22nd when Hillary Clinton testifies. Arguably before this came about, before Kevin McCarthy's remarks, and before this soldier's petition, the onus was on Hillary Clinton to answer these questions transparently, and she will still do that. But now the onus is on Trey Gowdy. He needs to remain credibility here because he's lost it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are people for whom this was not political. There are people who were touched directly by what happened in Benghazi. In last hour here on CNN, Martin Savidge spoke to Patricia Smith, she is the mother of Sean Smith who was killed in Benghazi, one of the four people to die. She still thinks Hillary Clinton has questions that she needs to answer. This is what Patricia Smith said.

VOICE OF PATRICIA SMITH, SON SEAN DIED IN BENGHAZI IN 2012: Just because she's not answering anything. If she would have opened up her email thing so we can find out what she said at that time, I understand she was talking to Obama while this was going on. I want to know was she talking to Obama. I want to hear from her lips what she said.

BERMAN: So Van, is just bashing the committee a good strategy for Hillary Clinton or does she still need to go to that committee and testify on October 22nd just like she's promised all along?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: She needs to do that and she's going to do that. You hear that mother's voice, and it just breaks your heart. You can imagine, you know, how frustrating it must be not to be able to know. But the reality is there have been seven investigations so far. We have as much information about this horrible, horrible accident -- incident as we have about pretty much anything. And she's still cooperating. I think it's horrible to imagine the pain of that mother being exploited by political operatives. You have people like Elijah Cummings, who actually is a strong Democrat. He joined the committee in good faith.

He's now saying that he feels that this committee is...

BERMAN: Trey Gowdy, in his defense, says he's not politicizing anything. Trey Gowdy says he's just investigating and he doesn't want to exploit this mother's pain. He just wants answers. That's his side of it.

And Nomiki, I want to talk about the political implications or the political sort of fallout that already does exist. Because Hillary Clinton, from the minute she got into this race has had to answer questions about Benghazi, about the emails, a lot of which have come to light because of the Benghazi investigation. I want to show you the toll this has perhaps taken on her, some of her poll numbers. The issue is she honest and trustworthy. If you look at the nation overall, registered voters, look at this. Hillary Clinton 35 percent. Just 35 percent say she's honest and trustworthy, 61 percent say no. That's among registered voters. Among Democrats, the situation is better, 68 percent say she is honest and trustworthy, 30 percent say no. You support Joe Biden. Is this one of the reasons?

[16:36:55]

NOMIKI KONST, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that most millennial women right now are asking themselves the same question. She's not polling very well with millennial women. I'm a millennial woman. And I think part of that has to do with the fact that you know she does represent the '90s. It's just one scandal after another. Now whether or not these scandals are true is another question, it's the problem of having a candidate who has been under scrutiny who has so many obstacles. When the Republican Party -- before she even runs is already doing opposition research on her, has been doing opposition research on her for ten years, that's just not a good candidate. It's going to be a fight. And I think Joe Biden is a really good candidate for us to unify, come together, you know, yes, he has a record but he's been able to work with the other side.

To be fair here, let's look at this. This is the first time in history that you've had two front-runners, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton come in as the least trustworthy candidates. That's insane. You see the Republican Party saying we don't want that in our candidate, they're trying to work with Donald Trump and work with other candidates, pushing more trustworthy candidates to be their front-runner. We're a party who...

BERMAN: How do you answer it, though, if she's the least trustworthy, although the Democratic numbers, 68 percent say she's perfectly trustworthy and 30 percent say no? How do you then square that with the fact that she's leading in the primary now and according to a new CBS poll out today, leading by a fair amount, 19 points. And by the way the guy you support, Joe Biden, all the way back in third.

KONST: Well, he's not running. Let's start with that. He hasn't been campaigning. The issue here -- I'm a supporter of Hillary. I like Hillary. She's a very great role model. I just chose Joe Biden because I think he's the most viable candidate at this point. The issue for Hillary is when she starts to lose the nonwhite voters. The nonwhite voters are going to deliver her the Democratic primary. That's indisputable. When she starts to lose the nonwhite voters, then we have to say are those untrustworthy numbers affecting her key core base.

BERMAN: I want to ask you about debate prep for Hillary Clinton, because you've been in the room when she's prepared for Democratic primary debates. This one is a little bit different. Eight years ago she had Barack Obama, John Edwards.

DOYLE: Joe Biden.

BERMAN: A different caliber of candidate on stage. Here she has Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, barely registering in the polls and Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb not registering in the polls at all. But is that -- does she have to be careful about diminishing their importance on the stage, and how does she do that?

DOYLE: Let me just say Hillary Clinton is a strong debater. She's wildly knowledgeable. At heart she's a policy wonk. So she knows she's issues, backwards, forwards, sideways, she also the front- runner. And when you're the front-runner, you have a big target on your back. Bernie Sanders said he won't go after her personally but he'll contrast with her on the issue. I think she will welcome that debate. But when it comes to Martin O'Malley and Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb, they need to make some noise. They need to do something to really break out of their one percent. The best way, in my opinion, if I were advising Martin O'Malley, is to go after Hillary Clinton with all he's got because that's the way he's going to make some noise. And Hillary Clinton has to be prepared for that. She needs to be able to answer all those attacks but without apparent condescending.

BERMAN: Patti Solis Doyle, Van Jones, Nomiki Konst, thanks so much for being with us. Again, that debate, we'll see how Hillary Clinton does on that stage with Bernie Sanders and the three others Tuesday night right here at CNN, 8:30 p.m. Eastern time. Again, this is the first and clearly the most important Democratic debate happening just two days from now. We'll have much more from Las Vegas at the top of the next hour. First, though, Martin Savidge will be back from Atlanta with more news right after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:28]

SAVIDGE: It's almost midnight in Turkey's capital. It's been the end of a very traumatic weekend there. Today thousands filled the streets protesting Saturdays deadly twin bombings and paying tribute to the victims. At least one group tried to reach the scene of the attacks was blocked by police officers who fired tear gas when a scuffle broke out. CNN's Senior International Correspondent Arwa Damon is live there for us. Arwa, I'm wondering what really led to those clashes and have they died down now?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They have died down. Look, the police here are notoriously heavy-handed. Almost every single demonstration will end up getting tear-gassed or water- cannoned except when it happened under these circumstances, it really does not bode well for the already pre-existing tensions here. It was the leader of the pro-Kurdish HDP party along with other members of the parliament that were trying to access the scene of the attack from one of the routes that leads there to lay down red flowers where they scuffled with police, and they eventually were led through after a little bit of tear gas was fired, but again, given the circumstances and everything that the country has been through, it really is not helping out the government in terms of the government's argument that people should be standing together and that they should stay away from inflammatory actions and rhetoric.

The government is saying that this was an attack on the state, but the pro-Kurdish HDP leadership was saying that the state was responsible for these attacks, at the very least for failing to protect the population. There are absolutely heartbreaking scenes today as families and loved ones collected the bodies of those who were then taken on to their final resting place. The entire nation is really struggling trying to come to terms with the violence, with the emotional toll and, of course, of all the concerns that the future's going to hold both in terms of security, of stability of Turkey as well. This Martin was the deadliest attack in this country's modern history.

SAVIDGE: The fact that it was a demonstration for peace to be torn apart by such violence is horrific to contemplate. Our Arwa Damon, thank you.

Today, two experts say that the police shooting of a 12-year-old boy in Cleveland was reasonable, next, a closer look at the controversial report on the death of Tamir Rice and what investigators are saying about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:01]

SAVIDGE: Two newly released reports saying the police shooting death of Tamir Rice, he was 12 years old was, "Reasonable." Those reports as well as a third one by the Ohio Highway Patrol were posted on the prosecutor's website Saturday night. A Cleveland police officer shot Rice last November saying that he was holding a pellet gun which looked like a handgun. CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney Joey Jackson joins me now from New York. And Joey, let me read you a bit from one of the reports to get your reaction to it. This senior chief deputy district attorney in Denver says, "Officer Loehmann is believed that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death was objectively reasonable as was his response to that perceived threat." Do you buy that?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what I think, Martin is that it's a jury question, and good afternoon, by the way. If just stepping back a little bit. A few thins have to be kept in perspective. Number one, of course the ultimate decision will be made by a grand jury. And understand and remember that a grand jury doesn't determine the ultimate issue of guilt. They're merely there to assess whether there's reasonable cause to believe that a crime was committed and that, in fact, Officer Loehmann committed it. The other thing in terms of a grand jury is they don't have to be unanimous of course, and with a standard that low it will go before the grand jury and they'll assess that really ultimate conclusion, was it reasonable.

The second thing to remember is that an expert opinion or any opinion can differ and vary. And being in this business, I can tell you that you can get an expert to basically say -- and you know not really pooh-poohing it at all but you can get an expert to say whatever it is you need them or want them to say. That's not a matter of being cynical. That's a matter of having people that have varying perspectives and varying opinion. These particular experts happen to say this. The third factor is if you look at it and it will ultimately come out if it goes to trial, is the people that wrote the reports, of course, a very closely tied with law enforcement. A chief deputy district attorney is working with law enforcement all your life and a former FBI specialist and agent working with law enforcement. .

I only say that to say that all of us have perspectives and sometimes our perspectives are driven by the nature and the quality of the work that we do every day. Just putting it all in perspective, I think that, again, ultimately a grand jury will determine not these particular experts who rendered an opinion.

SAVIDGE: And by the way, what you said, which was the fact that these are law enforcement people that you might be able to get to say what law enforcement wants, the family clearly agrees. They find that this report is reprehensible. They just say that it really needs to be decided by a grand jury. So my question is, if you got these sort of two, "experts," one former FBI, that has to weigh pretty heavily on a grand jury because this is now saying, it's reasonable.

JACKSON: There are a couple of concerns, Martin, about that, and I think you're right, it will. Because grand jury number one of course, is largely driven and controlled by a prosecutor. You've heard the expression over and over that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. That's largely driven by the notion that the grand jury is really controlled and, yeah, the judge, the jury and the executioner when you're the prosecutor in the particular case. So you can direct and guide a grand jury to do essentially whatever it is you want the grand jury to do. However, I think the grand jurors certainly will have knowledge enough to be asking questions. What is absent in those reports is the issue of -- if you want to talk about reasonableness, you have to talk about the nature of the training that the officers had and the policies and procedures and whether those violated.

If the grand jurors ask those questions, I think other evidence will come out that could in fact contradict some information in the reports and ultimately perhaps up to a jury to decide if they do indeed indict.

SAVIDGE: Yeah, we haven't heard anything about a grand jury. We're still waiting on that. Joey Jackson, thank you very much.

JACKSON: A pleasure, Martin.

SAVIDGE: Coming up, we're back live in Las Vegas, two days ahead of the Democratic presidential debate. Poppy Harlow and John Berman have more on the CNN Newsroom right after this.

[16:53:01]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now that we've announced the top ten CNN heroes of 2015, I want to show you how you can help decide who should be CNN hero of the year and receive $100,000 for their cause. Go to CNNheroes.com where you'll find more information about all of them, each one will be honored at CNN heroes an all-star tribute this December. But only one will be named hero of the year. That's where you come in with your votes. Down here you'll see photos of each top ten hero which linked to a page where you can watch videos and learn more about their important work. When you're ready, simply click vote over here and a new page comes up. Now select the person who inspires you the most.

I'm going to select somebody randomly, I'm going to pick Jim Withers over here, again just as an example. Any of the ten nominees would be worthy of being CNN hero of the year and that's entirely up to you. Once you select your favorite hero, his or her photo will show up down here in a separate box under your selection. Then just enter your email address, type in the security code and click on the vote box to cast your vote.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:00:00]