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Joe Biden Run; Breast Cancer Screening; Churches Set on Fire. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 20, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:06] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, my friend, thank you so much.

Wonderful to be with you on this Tuesday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN. Let's get to it.

The speculations that Joe Biden will be running for president of the United States, folks, it's reaching a fever pitch now. Biden himself sure seems to be feeding it, officially. He still has not made an announcement. But speaking at a Washington forum today, the vice president may have indicated a future run by taking jabs at the current front runner, Hillary Clinton.

Let me jog your memory. Remember what she said about Republicans during the CNN debate? Well, Biden swiped back without mentioning her by name.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, in addition to the NRA, the health insurance companies, the drug companies, the Iranians, probably the Republicans.

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really respect the members up there and I still have a lot of Republican friends. I don't think my chief enemy is the Republican Party. They're - you know, this is a matter of, you know, making things work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to Brianna Keilar. I see those eyebrows raising, Brianna Keilar, our senior political correspondent.

You've been to Washington a long time. You know the deal. So there was that and then also talk to me about how the vice president clarified his position on the decision to take down Osama bin Laden.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there were several points here in what he has said last night and today, Brooke, that he seems to be taking swipes at Hillary Clinton. On the issue of Osama bin Laden and the raid that ended in his death, it's been widely reported since that happened years ago that Hillary Clinton was on the side of, yes, let's go in and get Osama bin Laden and Joe Biden was the one who said, you know, not so fast and was reticent about it. Listen to what he said really kind of changing really what both of them had to say about whether to go or not go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Only two people who were definitive and were absolutely certain. Leon Panetta said go and Bob Gates has already publicly said, he said don't go. And others were at 59-41. Some ended up saying go, but it was such a close call. And I joked and I said, you all sound like 17 Larry Summers, the economist, on the one hand and the other hand. And he said, Joe, what would you do? And there was a third option that I really didn't think we should do. I said, well, I said, I think we should make one more pass with another UAV to see if it's - if it is him. And the reason I did that is, I didn't want to take a position to go if that was not where he was going to go. So as we walked out of the room and walked upstairs, I said - I told him my opinion, that I thought he should go, but follow his own instinct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So Joe Biden downplaying there that Hillary Clinton was a definitive yes on going after Osama bin Laden and also throwing cold water on the idea that he was a definitive no. But it's interesting, Brooke, because when you fact check that, it actually contradicts something President Obama said at a debate with Mitt Romney in 2012, where he basically says that Biden was against or reticent to go after bin Laden. And even Biden himself has made illusions to the fact that he wasn't on board. And another thing that's kind of interesting, you even heard Biden - this is why you know that he's kind of swiping at Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: Yes.

KEILAR: He says that he's flown 1 million and some 100,000 miles. Well, guess who that is more miles than?

BALDWIN: Could it be HRC herself?

KEILAR: That's correct. She was only about a million. So, there you go.

BALDWIN: Counting miles.

KEILAR: That's right.

BALDWIN: And we - cue the elevator music. We're still waiting on the Biden beat.

Let me ask you about the other, you know, Democratic candidate for president, Jim Webb. He made an announcement just a little while ago. What did he say?

KEILAR: He's out as a Democratic candidate, but he said he's keeping his options open. He's going to take the next few weeks, see what the response is. If people across the political spectrum want him to launch an independent party bid, he says he thinks that there's a case for an independent candidate to win, although I think a lot of people are doubtful. He really struggled to get his campaign off the ground. So it's really unclear if he'd be successful in some sort of venture like this.

BALDWIN: OK. Brianna Keilar, thank you very much.

KEILAR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: History shows four sitting vice presidents have become president of the United States. George H.W. Bush was the last. And then you have to go back to the 19th century. So that's the past. What about now?

This new CNN/ORC poll shows registered Democratic voters are growing less enthusiastic about a possible Joe Biden run. Only 47 percent think he should run. That is down from 53 percent in August.

[14:05:00] So, let's go straight to CNN political commentator Carl Bernstein.

And, Carl, we were just sitting here last week post gaming the Las Vegas debate. I asked you exactly about that, you know, enemy sound bite, the Republican sound bite from Hillary Clinton. We thought, ah- ha, down the road Republicans are going to use it against her. Did we ever think that Joe Biden would be doing this? What is his strategy?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, as you know, I thought so. I thought Joe Biden was going -

BALDWIN: You're like, I told you so, I told you so.

BERNSTEIN: Was going to get into this. But he would have done better to get in before that debate. She was masterful in the debate and he's up against the Hillary Clinton of that debate.

BALDWIN: What about - we're looking ahead to Hillary Clinton, you know, publicly testifying ahead of this Benghazi committee this week and I'm wondering, what would be best for him, to declare prior to her testimony or afterwards?

BERNSTEIN: I would say probably before. Get it out of the way. Get in there. But I'm not sure it makes too much difference.

BALDWIN: Because I've heard other people saying, if he does it after the fact, it could be reactionary, could be less on him.

BERNSTEIN: I think we've got to stop micromanaging every aspect of this.

BALDWIN: Well, that's not very fun.

BERNSTEIN: The important thing is if he gets in.

BALDWIN: You're right.

BERNSTEIN: And then we've got a new ballgame. And at the same time, he is coming in late.

BALDWIN: OK. On - with regard to Benghazi, on "Meet the Press" Sunday, a member of the committee investigating the deaths of the four Americans in Benghazi, in Libya, said this about Hillary Clinton, who, of course, as we all know, was U.S. secretary of state at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE POMPEO (R), MEMBER OF BENGHAZI COMMITTEE: You mentioned Watergate. Mr. Ship (ph) actually compared this committee to Watergate in a "New York Times" op-ed. But this is - this is - this is worse in some ways, right? Secretary Clinton tried to hide every one of her e- mails. She destroyed 30,000 of them. And now we have an FBI investigation of those very e-mails.

What's taken us so long is that the Democrats on the committee and this administration have played hide the ball and have denied us records that the American people deserve and that our committee needs to complete our investigation. We would have been happy to move more quickly, but we've met with obstruction all along the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You have been chomping to get in on this. You, Bob Woodward, broke that wide open. Your take on that.

BERNSTEIN: There is no resemblance between Watergate and what we are watching now with Benghazi and Hillary Clinton. Watergate was about a criminal president of the United States who presided over a criminal presidency from his first days in office to the last. Whatever Hillary Clinton has done, it is nothing resembling that and it's time to get the decks cleared on that once and for all.

BALDWIN: OK, Carl Bernstein, not mincing any words on that. Thank you very much.

BERNSTEIN: Good to be here.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, as Donald Trump dominates in a new CNN poll, he is telling us about a possible running mate. Is the Republican establishment starting to believe he could win?

Plus, a new round of guidelines involving breast cancer screenings. Hear what experts are telling women to do, and the backlash against that.

Also, six black churches near Ferguson in Missouri sets on fire in recent days. We'll speak live with one of the pastors about the noticeable pattern in all of them.

This is CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:12:18] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A new, major shift in cancer screening guidelines affecting millions of women. It's causing a lot of confusion today because for years and years we have heard the advice that women should have routine mammograms starting around age 40 and have their doctors do clinical breast exams as often as possible. But today one of the most influential cancer groups in the country is changing its tune, now saying that women should begin screenings later in life and actually have them far less often.

So let me bring in our CNN senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen. Also with me, Dr. Kevin Oeffinger from the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center here in new York. He's actually the chair of the panel that enacted these new guidelines. So great to hear from him today. Also with us, Dr. Judy Salerno, CEO of Susan G. Komen.

So welcome to all of you.

DR. JUDY SALERNO, CEO, SUSAN G. KOMEN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Elizabeth Cohen, first to you. Just talk to me about what the American Cancer Society is recommending or reporting on this.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right, Brooke, this is a big change, so let's just put it right out there. The American Cancer Society, up until today, said start getting your annual mammograms at around - at age 40. Now they're saying start getting them at age 45 and then starting at age 55 you can get them every other year if you want to. They're also saying that those annual breast exams that women get at the doctor's office when the doctor feels for lumps and bumps, nobody needs to do those.

Now, Brooke, I want to say two things. One, this is for women of average risk of breast cancer. So if you have a family history or you have one of the breast cancer genes, this doesn't apply to you. You would need to do more screening.

And the reason why the Cancer Society says to do this is they said, look, we looked through, you know, many, many, many studies and we did not find any evidence that mammograms in your early 40s or a doctors exam will get cancer earlier and help save lives.

BALDWIN: OK. I can - I can hear the women out there thinking, huh? Why? So, Dr. Oeffinger, I'm turning straight to you because you were the chairman on this panel. And so you were, you know, with this - with these recommendations the whole way, yet Memorial Sloane Kettering isn't going with the guidelines. Tell me why.

DR. KEVIN OEFFINGER, CHAIRMAN OF PANEL THAT ENACTED NEW GUIDELINES: Let me first clarify. The American Cancer Society still strongly supports the opportunity for women age 40 to 44 to have annual mammogram. And, in fact, women 55 and older we strongly support the opportunity to have annual mammography. The key is that that needs to be done by an informed decision. When you look at the evidence it's very clear that age 45 there's no question, it's black and white to us, that there is clear benefits in annual mammography. Between age 40 and 44, there's tradeoffs and really needs to be through a discussion with the woman with their health care provider. So let me be very emphatic.

BALDWIN: Yes. OEFFINGER: We strongly support mammography, we strongly support mammography for women age 40 to 44, but that should be a shared decision between that woman and her health care provider. We still strongly support having the opportunity for annual mammography from the age 55 and beyond. But that, again, is an informed decision of a woman between her and her health care provider.

[14:15:16] As to the difference between our institution, this is a brand new guideline that's just released today. We, as an institution, will go back, we'll look at the evidence, we'll talk among our different members and make a decision on which direction we choose to go.

BALDWIN: OK. So, Dr. Salerno, I just want to hear your voice in all of this as you all have been integral in the fight against breast cancer. And also what about the issue with false positives in mammography? That's an issue as well.

SALERNO: Well, I think if we had better means of distinguishing which cancers, early cancers, would go on to be invasive cancers and really significantly affect life expectancy, then we could make an informed decision. But the decision has to rest with a woman. Whether the right screening age is 40, 45 or 50 really obscures the issue and that is women don't get the information they need to make informed choices, to sit down and discuss with their health care provider and then to really make a decision about what's right for them, what's the right screening age, whether or not they need further diagnostics if they have an abnormal result is also an informed decision.

BALDWIN: So, Dr. Salerno, let me just stay with you and just put you on the spot. I'm 36. So - and I do have cancer in my family. I'm four years away from potentially going in to having my first mammogram. I'm just thinking of all the women trying to - trying to parse through what you're recommending versus what they should do. What would you tell someone like me?

SALERNO: I would say you need a discussion. You need to sit down and look through all your risks, not just your family history of cancer but breast cancer. You look - need to look at whether or not there's any genetic mutations that are known in your family, whether you have a history such as being Ashkenazi Jewish heritage, which would affect your risk. So it's not a simple discussion. It's something that's much more nuanced than saying 40 or 45 or 50.

BALDWIN: You look like you want to jump in.

OEFFINGER: I would love to. That's exactly what we said in the report.

BALDWIN: Yes.

OEFFINGER: That's exactly what the American Cancer Society embraces. We want those decisions to be shared decisions, informed decisions when a health care provider talks with a women, assess her risk on a variety of different factors. When it becomes very clear for women that are at average risk that don't have a family history, are not at high risk for screening mammography is age 45. But between 40 and 44, there are some tradeoffs, and we want women to understand those trade- offs. We think that both the women in our country are quite savvy about this and health care providers have the opportunity to share this information. We're very committed through the American Cancer Society of getting high quality credible information out to the clinicians and out to our patients.

BALDWIN: OK. Elizabeth Cohen, has there been some backlash against the recommendations? What more have you heard since this is just out today?

COHEN: You know what's interesting, Brooke, is that in 2009, when the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force said start at 50, you may remember this, Brooke. I think you and I discussed this on air.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

COHEN: People went nuts. I mean breast cancer survivors were furious. I'm not hearing that this time in that same volume. What I'm hearing is, you know the evidence may really be that you should start at 45. So - and then I'm hearing some groups saying, well, we're concerned about how the American Cancer Society did this. They looked at film mammography rather than digital, because digital's so new, there really aren't, you know, good studies on digital. But film mammography studies, is that really applicable to today. So I'm hearing people sort of picking at some of the technicalities here, but not as much of a backlash as I could have expected.

BALDWIN: OK. I'm listening to you and I'm watching Dr. Salerno nod her head, Dr. Oeffinger shaking his head.

Dr. Oeffinger, why are you shaking your head?

OEFFINGER: Thank you, Brooke. Let me be clear. When we looked at the evidence, we looked at the breadth of evidence. We looked at the randomized clinical trials that were done two or three decades ago with film mammography, single film, and we also looked at the large observational studies, the very rich data on hundreds of thousands of women, if now perhaps millions, understanding the benefits and, again, some of the downsides of mammography. So we did look at the breadth of information, the breadth of evidence as we made these recommendations.

BALDWIN: OK. Dr. Salerno, I want to give you the final word and we've got to - got to move on.

COHEN: Can I pipe in here?

SALERNO: Yes. Guidelines are just that, they're meant to be guidelines. And I think the ACS guidelines very clearly state that it's much more important that a woman make a decision in conjunction with her health care provider and that's what we're stressing today. There is no magic age, 40, 45 or 50, but we're talking about population screening, but one size does not fit all.

[14:20:04] BALDWIN: I think you just hit it. You just hit it.

OEFFINGER: That's right. BALDWIN: Dr. Judy Salerno, Dr. Kevin Oeffinger, and Elizabeth Cohen, thank you all very much. Such an important discussion.

SALERNO: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up, Donald Trump showing big gains in brand new polls as Jeb Bush is faltering. So the question we're asking today, is the Republican establishment starting to embrace Donald Trump? A surprising new report.

Plus, a string of fires at six African-American churches in the Ferguson, Missouri, area just in the past couple of days and authorities are saying arson is the cause. A pastor from one of these churches joins me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: St. Louis area authorities are searching for whoever targeted six predominantly black churches and set them on fire. Investigators say the arsons happened over nine days. The first happened the evening of October 8th. The latest, just this past Sunday. All the churches are in the areas right around Ferguson. Damage has mostly been sustained to the front doors of the churches, a noticeable pattern, according to investigators. And today these local pastors made an urgent plea for the community to unite and stay vigilant.

[14:25:20] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REVEREND SAMMY JONES, PASTOR, MT. ZION BAPTIST CHURCH: This is not over. It's just the beginning. And we want the city to know that the churches and pastors and Christians are coming together to stand as one. If you burn one, you're burning all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Authorities say they have not determined a motive, but investigators are saying the churches were targeted. Joining me now from St. Louis, the pastor of the New Northside Missionary Baptist Church, Reverend Roderick Burton. His church was set - the second to be set on fire 10 days ago.

So, reverend, I'm so sorry about the church. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today.

REV. RODERICK K. BURTON, NEW NORTHSIDE MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: So take me back. Ten days ago you get a phone call from the minister of music who lives two doors down from the church right around 3:00 in the morning and they say what?

BURTON: They said that, pastor, there was a fire at the front door of the church. The fire department put it out. A neighbor alerted the fire department. And, you know, and they left it there. So that just wake - it's jarring enough to wake up at 3:00 in the morning, even more jarring to hear that there's been a fire. BALDWIN: So when you went finally to see the damage, what - what was

your first thought?

BURTON: Well, I was very thankful in that the potential for more damage was there. We still could use the door functionally. But - and then I also was very concerned about the heart of - and the mind of the individual that would do something like that.

BALDWIN: Let me read a statement to everyone. This was released by the Missouri ACLU. Quote, "those who commit this violence seek to instill fear. This is why arson against predominantly black churches has been a frequent tool of white supremacy. We call on others, especially government officials, to join us in proclaiming that any effort to intimidate will not be tolerated in our state."

Do you believe - do you have reason to believe this was racially motivated?

BURTON: I have no evidence of that. No messages were left. I don't have evidence to that and I believe it's a little bit too early to make that determination. But just by the nature that a house of faith was attacked, that should be troubling to every American whether you're of faith or not.

BALDWIN: And what about the other pastors and these other churches? What are they all - what are you all saying?

BURTON: Well, I have - I went to every single location and I was only able to interact with the pastor whose church was burned most destructively. And, naturally, he's concerned. And our biggest concern is for whoever is doing this. We want them to get help. We want them to stop absolutely. And I think people would like to know, what is the motivation behind it?

BALDWIN: What would you say to that person or ask of that person if you had that person right in front of you?

BURTON: Well, when we found - on the Sunday morning afterwards, we forgave that person and I - we would ask to pray for them. I would like to hear, what is their story? What happened to them that they would feel that acting out in a dangerous manner against churches - I just would like to know why. But, again, we definitely will forgive them and we would pray for them, but we really want to know, because I have a number of my members who are veterans of the civil right era and they want to know why because they're feeling that is this - is this racially motivated, you know?

BALDWIN: That is incredibly generous of you. Reverend Burton, let's stay in touch. I want to see what happened and why as well. Thank you.

BURTON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, as the Republican establishment starts to prepare for Donald Trump as their possible nominee, Carly Fiorina plunging in the polls, even after her strong debate performance a couple of weeks ago. What happened? Where's she been? Let's talk about that. Plus, a fight on a plane over a reclined seat leads to an emergency

landing. Comedian Mark Curry, you know who he is, he was on that flight, "Hangin' with Mr. Cooper," anyone? We'll talk to Mark Curry, live.

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