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Benghazi Hearing; Soldier Killed in Iraq; Iowa Poll: Strong Carson Support with Women. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired October 23, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] KATE QUIGLEY, SISTER OF BENGHAZI ATTACK VICTIM: It shows me a lot about her character that she would choose in that moment to basically perpetuate what she knew was untrue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Congresswoman, do you think family members got real answers after that hearing?

REP. LINDA SANCHEZ (D), SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI: Well, you know, this is something that we've been hearing over and over again. There was this big build up that there was going to be, you know, all this new information. The Republicans on the committee said we have all these documents. But they - Chairman Gowdy himself after the hearing responded by saying there was nothing new that they learned that they didn't know three years ago.

I mean, remember, Secretary Clinton has testified already in front of the House and the Senate and there have been eight separate reports based on eight separate investigations of what happened. There's plenty of information out there. And none of the supposedly new evidence that the Republicans uncovered changes the narrative of what happened that evening. Nothing changes those facts. In fact, it supports all of the conclusion of the eight prior reports. So -

COSTELLO: OK. OK, so if Democrats know what happened that night, tell me what happened, who should be held accountable and satisfy Ms. Quigley's concern.

SANCHEZ: Sure. Well, you know, part of the problem is that, you know, the public hasn't read all eight reports that have been generated. Most of the members probably haven't. I know because I have. But essentially the reports boil down to the following. The attack was not anticipated. The folks that responded, responded to the best of their ability and even heroically. And, tragically, four Americans lost their lives. But there was no - none of these wild conspiracy theories have proven to be true based on the facts in the evidence. There was no stand down order. There wasn't gun running going on. There wasn't, you know, you know, willful, you know, ignorance of what was going on and overreliance on a friend e-mailing Secretary Clinton.

COSTELLO: OK, so let - let me just - let me just stop you there because they did bring up this private e-mail that Clinton sent to her daughter Chelsea. And Clinton said, quote, "an al Qaeda-like group was responsible for the attack," but publicly the State department initially blamed that video. This seemed to suggest her team wasn't honest with the American people. Doesn't this bolster the belief that Hillary Clinton is untrustworthy?

SANCHEZ: No, because if you listen to the testimony yesterday, the intelligence committee told the State Department that they believed that the attack was based on a video. Now, it was very chaotic and they were still gathering information and it took several days to sift through all of the information. So the initial report that it was based on a video proved ultimately, by the intelligence committee, they admitted that their initial report was incorrect. That they found that it had, in fact, been a planned attack.

But the problem is, nobody focuses on the testimony. They focus on these outlandish conspiracy theories. And because the Republicans have had 17 months to selectively leak information out of context, and they keep buildings it up as like, oh, this is the smoking gun, the is the a-ha moment that the public believes them.

COSTELLO: Well, people say Democrats leaked - leaked information as well.

Let me ask you this. Representative Jordan asked Clinton if she would be agreeable to a third party, like a federal judge, to review her e- mails. Why not just say yes to that?

SANCHEZ: Because she's turned over the e-mails and the State Department on - in an going rolling basis is trying to comply with the multiple requests that they've received. And every time they try to comply with requests, then, you know, then the subset of what they're looking for changes. And, you know, they're working very diligently to get all of the information to the committee. But again, everything that they've turned over, none of it has new information that contradicts the conclusion in the prior eight reports. Again, they can keep asking the same questions over and over again, but the answers aren't going to fundamentally change. So their - you know -

COSTELLO: Well, let me ask you - let me ask you this because I just interviewed Mike Pompeo. He said that the hearings will go on, likely behind closed doors. It doesn't matter how much taxpayer money is spent. It's going to be spent in a good way because it will get answers for these families. If those hearings continue, will Democrats like yourself walk or will they participate?

SANCHEZ: Well, that depends. Based on, you know, the eleven hour hearing we had yesterday and the grueling, you know, badgering questions that Secretary Clinton was forced to endure for eleven hours, which, by the way, I don't think in my 13 year career up here I've ever seen one witness interviewed that many hours consecutively. You know, we have to sit down and figure out whether or not we will choose to participate because, again, we know that this is politically motivated. Top GOP leadership has said so. Investigators on the Republican side have said so. Members of the Republican caucus have said so. And - and have sent -

[09:35:01] COSTELLO: So which side - which - which way are you leaning, congresswoman? SANCHEZ: And have - and, in fact, Representative Pompeo, who for all, you know, appearances, wants you to believe that he hasn't made up his mind yet about what happened. You know, he went on "Meet the Press" and made blatantly false statements. He was caught lying about that. So his credibility is really the credibility we're out (ph) to question (ph).

COSTELLO: OK. So - so in - in light of all that, congresswoman, which way - which way is the wind blowing with you? Is it - is it in your gut to walk away?

SANCHEZ: Again, as a team, we need to sit down and figure out what we think is the best course of action because I'll tell you this, having Democrats in that hearing yesterday allowed the secretary an opportunity to push back on all the lies and conspiracy theories that have been generated over the last 17 months. Had we not been in that room, you know, they would have just badgered her and beaten her into the ground. That's been their intent and their purpose all along. So I'm not sure which way I fall on that. I do think we need to be defenders of the truth, but at a certain point you have to throw up your hands and say, this is completely useless because we're not gaining additional information that helps inform the families about what happened that night to provide them the closure that was promised to them by the Republican chairman at the beginning of this whole process.

COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there. Congresswoman Linda Sanchez of California, thank you for being with me.

SANCHEZ: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Up next, an American troop killed on the ground fighting ISIS. What we're learning about the rescue mission to save 70 hostages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:58] COSTELLO: New details this morning about a deadly rescue mission in northern Iraq. An American service member was killed in the operation that liberated about 70 hostages from an ISIS-controlled prison. The Defense Department has just identified the dead man as Master Sergeant Joshua Wheeler. The 39-year-old died from wounds received by enemy small arms fire. In the meantime, officials revealed that they did not have a clear idea as to who exactly these hostages were and that initially U.S. troops were strictly on an advise and assist role, but the escalating situation prompted immediate action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER COOK, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: This was a unique situation in which very close partners of the United States made a specific request for our assistance. And there was a deliberate process to analyze the situation and the circumstances. And that's when the decision was made to move forward with this operation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So let's talk about this with former Navy SEAL Jonathan Gilliam.

Welcome, Jonathan.

JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Good to be here.

COSTELLO: So what do you make of this? Was protocol followed?

GILLIAM: I believe so. I mean if you look at the way that they - the parameters were laid out, and according to what's being reported, that it was an advising role, but if they got into a situation where there was fire, they could respond to that accordingly. And I that think if you're going to put - I always had a problem when I was in with these assist roles of putting us in harm's way and stopping us from being involved because a lot of the times when you train these host nation individuals, if you're not there while the operation goes down to really advise them and somewhat be involved - I mean it's a joke when we say that they're not going to be involved and it's also very dangerous.

And when I was in Central South America, we were in some very, very dangerous places training a lot of these forces to go deal with the war on drugs in Colombia and other places and we were not allowed to be involved with those at all. And that somewhat put us in harm's way. Over here in Iraq, you actually have advisors going along with the mission. It just makes perfect sense that they would be able to be involved.

COSTELLO: And they would be on the ground because, you know, I thought that there were no American boots on the ground. We were just advising and then they were going to fight the - fight what they had to fight themselves.

GILLIAM: Right. And also in situation like this where you have intel that just pours in, it's a little shaky as far as the intel goes, but they know that a lot of people are imminently facing death. It's hard to say no in those types of situations, ethically and morally, when you're looking at an enemy like ISIS.

COSTELLO: Didn't know who these 70 hostages were. Is that unusual?

GILLIAM: I have a feeling they knew a little bit more about these individuals than what is being said. I mean maybe they didn't know who all of them are, but I think they knew definitely that from what I'm hearing and the parts of the information that are coming out, I think they had an idea of who this was.

COSTELLO: And for all we know, there are other missions like this that we're just not hearing about, right?

GILLIAM: Very well could be.

COSTELLO: Exact - Jonathan Gilliam, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

GILLIAM: Sure.

COSTELLO: Coming up - coming up, Monday night, an American war in Iraq, again? Can we return to the chaos left behind? We'll talk about that, next.

Oh, this is our special that's airing on Monday. I apologize to you. "America in Iraq" Monday. That airs Monday night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern. There you have it. It's excellent. Fareed Zakaria fronts that.

[09:44:24] Still to come in the NEWSROOM, move over Donald Trump. There's a new frontrunner in Iowa. Ben Carson surging ahead in two new polls. We'll take a look at what that means, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Talk about October surprises. And I'm not talking the Mets and the Cubs. I'm talking about the Iowa polls. Ben Carson now leads Trump in two polls. By a lot. Take a look. Ben Carson at 28 percent support in both the Des Moines register poll and the Quinnipiac poll. While Trump trails at 19 and 20 percent, respectively.

Still Trump appears unfazed. This is what he told radio host Hugh Hewitt.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST: You were ahead in everything accept this Iowa Quinnipiac poll. Why is that the outlier? What's going on in Iowa?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was surprised to see it. I was in Iowa last night. We had 4,000 people. It was packed. It was great. It was a love fest. It was amazing. And I was surprised. I'm not saying a thing like that can't happen. But I was very surprised to see it because I think we're doing well in Iowa. I have a feeling we're doing much better in Iowa than the polls are showing, if you want the truth.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All though this retweet by Trump's official account did not make Iowans very happy.

[09:50:00] It says, quote, "Ben Carson is now leading in the polls in Iowa. Too much Monsanto in the corn creates issues in the brain?" End quote. Trump says it wasn't his finger on the trigger. A young intern retweeted that.

So let's talk about these polls. With us, CNN political commentator and columnist for "The Daily Beast," Sally Kohn, and CNN political commentator and host of "The Ben Ferguson Show," Ben Ferguson.

So Ben, what's behind the Carson surge?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think people are really taking a very close look at him and realizing that maybe he is entertaining. Maybe he's fun. But maybe I don't want to trust him with the United States of America and that's starting to show. The closer we get to election day, I think the tougher it will be for Donald Trump to just go out there and be bombastic and get people to like him.

I mean, Ben Carson's demeanor is completely different than Donald Trump's. It's obviously connecting because he's having a conversation. These are some of the most, I say, intelligent voters in the country because they're so focused on politics for such a long time because they are the first. And we're seeing where that's paying off for these other candidates and maybe not so much for Trump.

COSTELLO: OK. So Sally I want you to take a look at the line at Ben Carson's book signing. So let's take a look at that because it was long. It wound around the block. Trust me when I say this. It really did. There it is. You see it at the Barnes & Noble there.

I know it's a little weird that a presidential candidate is signing books while he's running for president, right, but --

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hey, this election just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

COSTELLO: Very strange election.

KOHN: I don't think this is the weirdest thing be far.

COSTELLO: But here's what Ben Carson said in a radio interview about the numbers and where he's getting his support.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The leap seems entirely due, or at least greatly, to women. What's your reaction to this poll?

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, let me tell you, I love women. They've been so important to my life. I had the most spectacular mother anybody could ever imagine. Same thing with my wife. My senior P.A. who helped me build pediatric neurosurgery at Hopkins. But women are - have been essential to my success. I think this is a great poll but it's only one poll.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So, Sally, why do you think he's resonating with women?

KOHN: Well - OK. First of all - And I love when these moments happen. Because here you have a candidate who has very vocally been attacking quote/unquote "identify politics." I mean, just going to bat on it. Right? You know, we don't need to be emphasizing that we're women or we're black or that we're white or that we're this. And then of course, when it seems to help him, he's all, gender politics, gender politics, let me embrace it, No. 1. No. 2, Dr. Carson, nothing says you love women like giving them equal pay, access to their own reproductive choices. It's nice to say it. It would be better to show it with your actual policies if you wanted to be winning women voters, which Republicans have been struggling with. COSTELLO: OK. Let's ask a Republican why Ben Carson is resonating with women, and that would be you, Ben.

FERGUSON: One, I think that they are looking at what Ben Carson has said and what he's also done. Not everyone agrees with Sally Kohn on supporting Planned Parenthood and supporting selling baby parts. There are other women out there that I think get insulted every time you imply you're not a real woman unless you support the ideals of Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party.

A lot of women actually connect with traditional values and also Ben Carson has never been against women's equal pay. You can use that as a talking point, but women that are around him and worked with him have come out overwhelmingly and supported him on the campaign trail. He also doesn't have any scandals with women, unlike some on the Democratic side in the past who say they support women but they also have a lot of women in the closet that they've had bad dealings with.

So you can attack him as much as you want, but women are smart all over this country and they have no problem supporting the demeanor and how calm and collective Ben Carson is, and also thoughtful. So, I think the polls speak for themselves. You can attack him all you want, saying he's anti-women or gender politics. Some women in this country disagree with the way Democrats want to run this country when it comes to women's issues.

KOHN: So look -- He just played gender politics. He just put it into his own campaign despite saying that we shouldn't be doing things like that, No. 1. And No. 2, I'm going to ignore your incredibly misleading smear against Planned Parenthood and get -

FERGUSON: It's not misleading. The videos are there.

KOHN: We're talking about polls. Let's talk about polls. The majority of Republican women do not believe we should add restrictions, further restrict reproductive freedom. So, you know, you can say yes, of course there are women on both sides of the party for whom that's not an important issue. But your own party, Ben, in its own autopsy after the last two elections said we're losing women voters because we're not where Republicans traditionally even were. They're moving further and further away from the majority of women from their -- women in their own party.

FERGUSON: Well then that's good news for Democrats.

[09:55:00] KOHN: This is simple. This is straightforward. But you want to keep going your way and thinking women will flock to you, I support you. Good luck with that.

FERGUSON: They're flocking to Ben Carson.

KOHN: We'll talk in 2016.

COSTELLO: OK. We have to leave it there. Sally Kohn, Ben Ferguson, thanks so much. Be sure to tune into "STATE OF THE UNION" this Sunday. Jake Tapper

talks to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio and Bernie Sanders. That starts Sunday at 9:00 a.m. Eastern.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO (voice-over): Happening now in the NEWSROOM.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just would imagine I've thought more about what happened than all of you put together.

COSTELLO: Hillary Clinton back on the trail after a marathon Benghazi hearing. There were fireworks.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI RANKING MEMBER: You said from the beginning, we want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

COSTELLO: But in the end, what did we learn?

REP. TREY GOWDY (R-SC), SELECT COMMITTEE ON BENGHAZI CHAIRMAN: I don't know that she testified that much differently today than she has previous times she's testified.

COSTELLO: Plus, he's in. Congressman Paul Ryan is running for speaker. Can he really shake up Congress?