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FBI Chief Talks Chilling Effect; Trump Questions Carson's Faith; Bush Talks Negativity; New Meat Warning. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 26, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The White house and Congress may be close to a new budget deal. We're getting new information. Stay with CNN for that.

In the meantime, the news continues next on CNN.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, and thank you so much for being with me on this Monday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

Got to begin this hour with the head of the FBI saying crime is on the rise across America because police officers are nervous. The nation's top law enforcement officers are in Chicago tackling policing in America and that includes the director of the FBI himself, James Comey. He has come under scrutiny for suggesting that officers are pulling back from doing their jobs over what's become known essentially as "the Ferguson effect." Is there a national police slowdown happening in the wake of several controversial deadly police shootings? Has it led to a rise in violent crime? Here are Comey's first remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Our officers answering 911 calls but avoiding the informal contact that keeps bad guys from standing around, especially with guns. I spoke to officers privately in one big city precinct who describe being surrounded by young people with mobile phones held high taunting them when they get out of their cars. They said to me, we feel under siege and we don't feel much like getting out of our cars. And so the suggestion, the question that's been asked of me is, are these kinds of things changing police behavior all over the country and is that what explains the map and the calendar? The honest answer is, I don't know. And I don't know that that explains it entirely. But I do have a strong sense that some part of the explanation is a chill wind that has blown through law enforcement over the last year. And that wind is surely changing behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Let's go to our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, who is there in Chicago, where the FBI director now seems to be maybe a bit softening his rhetoric. What is it that he just said, Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: well, Brooke, you know, this is a very, very touchy subject, obviously, and the FBI director doesn't often wade into these issues of - about race and about police. But he says he feels that it is something that he needed to do.

There was - there was some reaction to those remarks that he made first at a University of Chicago law school on Friday. Today he said essentially that he was fearful that the Black Lives Matter and the Police Lives Matter hash tags were really driving the company - the country apart and pitting police against the communities that they're supposed to serve. But he doubled down on these comments which really give voice to this idea that perhaps there is this Ferguson effect happening in some parts of the country where they're seeing increases in crime.

And to be sure, he also points out that black communities are suffering from this increased crime. Here's how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMEY: Something is going on in big cities in different parts of the country in 2015. According to the major city chiefs, far more people are being killed in many of America's cities this year than in many years. And let's be clear, far more people of color are being killed in some of America's cities this year. And it's not the cops doing the killing. We are right to focus on violent encounters between law enforcement and civilians. Those incidents can teach all of us to be better. But something much bigger and more disturbing is happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ: And, Brooke, you know, one of the things that emerged from this is, you really - you know, we're talking about some provocative comments by the FBI director. And what he says he's trying to do is just really start a conversation. He's not trying to pick on the Black Lives Matter folks. He's not trying to side with anybody. He's also saying that he wants police to provide more data to the FBI so they can know exactly what is happening, how often are these shootings happening, so that they can do something about it, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, wants to start a conversation. We'll have a conversation right now. Evan Perez, thank you so much.

So, on all of this, on Comey's comments, you know, this, of course, follows a massive anti-police brutality rally in New York over the weekend. It was called "Rise Up." It included hundreds of protesters marching with signs, demanding an end to excessive use of force. One of the demonstrators was Oscar-winning director Quentin Tarantino. And during a speech over the weekend to this crowd, he suggested some officers were, his word, "murders," and he urged these people to speak out. He said, quote, "if you believe there is murder going on, then you need to rise up and stand up against it. I am here to say I'm on the side of the murdered."

Tarantino's comments angered New York's police union president, Patrick Lynch. He called on people to boycott Tarantino's movies. So here with me now for this conversation, CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck. And also with me, Munir Bahar. He is a Baltimore resident, founder of the 300 Men March Movement.

[14:05:02] So welcome to both of you. So important to have both of your voices here.

Harry, let me just begin with you. I want you to respond to Tarantino's comments to the crowd Saturday.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, well, here's a man who doesn't know what he's talking about. I would like to sit down with Mr. Tarantino and tell him to give me the facts about these alleged murders he's talking about. And does he know anything about the evidence in any of these cases that he's talking about? He probably doesn't. He probably just figured he needed to get his face in the media right now and go and - listen, we locked Mr. Tarantino up years ago for smacking somebody in a restaurant. You know, so he's got a temper himself, you know what I mean? So the fact is that, you know, you've got the PBA here, they want to - they want to stop all police officers from going to see his movies. And I would say every police department in this country should do that. I want an apology from Mr. Tarantino because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

BALDWIN: So, Munir, you have one side of this, right? You have folk who are furious at the Tarantinos and other people. I mean, listen, the cover of "The New York Post" over the weekend was a guy flipping off a police officer and this all happening four days after, you know, a hero, a New York officer, was slain on the streets in east Harlem. You know, you contrast that, though, with absolutely justifiable anger on behalf of a number of people in communities such as where you are in Baltimore. I wanted to ask you about Comey's point about sort of this divide in communities between, in his one example, these hash tags, you know, Police Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter. How do we come together to figure this out?

MUNIR BAHAR, BALTIMORE RESIDENT: Well, I think first what's important is that we get folks out of the equation who really don't have any merit or any expertise or qualifications to even be speaking. I mean a Hollywood director, for him to get up and say anything, I mean, come on, man, the truth is you're not in these communities where we are. So to say you're against - you're with the murdered, well, then we got to talk about all the people who are murdered, not just individuals who may be allegedly murdered by police officers. If you're really standing up for murdered people, we are talking about thousands of American who are murdered every day, who get no hash tag, who get no rally, who get no song for justice.

So I - what we don't like is so many people using the deaths of people. And clearly, yes, we have a problem in this country, but this problem - and it's not going to be resolved by making this a Hollywood issue or a celebrity issue or an opinionated issue. I agree with the gentleman from New York. You know certain - just keep - keep your Hollywood business out of the real business of the day-to-day violence that we see in our American country, especially here in Baltimore. You know, unless you're on the ground floor, unless you're impacted by this violence, you really have no bearings, you don't have no weight on anything. So it doesn't matter if one is a Hollywood director, an entertainer, that means nothing to us who are on the ground floor with us being the community, as well as the police department. The police department, yes, they have their measures, they have their practices, they have their methods of investigating, to really figuring out the facts. This is about the facts.

BALDWIN: How do you think - how do you think they're doing because, listen, I've been in Baltimore, I've talked to officers who really weren't supposed to talk to me but they did such essentially in shadow and they said, yes, Brooke, you know, because of what's happened and because of, to use Comey's comments, the Ferguson effect, this chill wind, they're afraid of being the bad cop in some of these YouTube videos. They are being more reactive and less proactive. Do you feel like that's the case where you are?

BAHAR: Well, I - here's what I feel the case is, and it's - what's going on with the police department is very similar to the African- American male experience, in that if one of your counterparts does something wrong, the whole group is judged. If one young black man has his pants down and that is the glimpse that the media captures, then everybody gets shadowed. So I feel it's the same injustice and ignorant, stereotypical behavior that's happened with the police department. If one police officer does something crazy, that does not mean the entire police department should be reflected with that behavior. We have good officers who are out here trying to develop the communities, who are out here trying to protect people. And the reality is, the facts are, they are trying to protect people from the killers who are most often a neighbor, a friend or someone that lives across the street.

BALDWIN: Harry, I know you want to jump in. I'm sure you agree a little bit.

HOUCK: Well, you know, first of all, here's a level headed man I can - I can talk to. I mean he's a very level headed gentlemen, all right, and I'm agreeing with a lot of what he's saying there.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOUCK: Now, a lot of the problem here is that a lot of people think that cops aren't reacting out there, all right. Look at Police Officer Holder who was just killed in the line of duty several days ago.

BALDWIN: Here in New York.

HOUCK: Here in New York. He could have let that guy run off. And I - and I know - and I know for a fact myself when I was - used to getting involved in stuff back - the days when I was on patrol, I'd say, I'm not doing anything anymore. That's it. To hell with these people. But, you know, the next time that gun run came in, I was right out of that car and I was right after that bad guy.

[14:10:10:10] BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

HOUCK: So I think a lot of cops are taking but they're still out there doing the job.

BALDWIN: So why do you think Comey - what - were you surprised when Comey made those remarks Friday and then again and then again?

HOUCK: Yes, very surprised. You know, but he had made a similar remark a couple of months ago when he said something. But the fact here is, I think politicians are looking for a fall guy here and they want to make the cops the fall guy, you know, because they don't want to take responsibility for their own failed actions in their own city.

BAHAR: Yes.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Munir. You agree.

BAHAR: No - no, I agree 100 percent. You know, what's happening is not - I keep telling people here in Baltimore, the level of violence is not the police department's fault. I can tell you this, and this is a strong opinion, borderline fact. If there were no police in Baltimore right now, we would have more murders than anywhere else in the world. I mean it would be astronomically high. So the fact is that the police presence does, to some degree, curb the violence because some people still fear, you know, law enforcement actions.

But we saw, I mean it was evident, as soon as the riots happening and there was chaos in the city, people took advantage of it. We had 10 homicides in the seven days right after the Freddie Gray unrest. So it's very clear we need police. Yes, we need good relations between the police and the community. And it does take level headed, rational thinking and coming to the table. But if all we're doing is blaming somebody, looking for a scapegoat, looking for somebody -

BALDWIN: It gets you nowhere. It gets you nowhere. Yes.

BAHAR: We're not going anywhere. So we're running in circles in this country.

BALDWIN: Munir and Harry, let's leave it, but I'm so glad we had the conversation again. It's not going anywhere. It is an issue, especially in specific cities, as Director Comey pointed out. I really appreciate you both. Thank you.

HOUCK: Thank you.

BAHAR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Donald Trump in foreign territory. What is this, second place by quite a bit? Ben Carson jumping out to a huge lead in Iowa as Trump is questioning Carson's religion. We'll get into that.

Plus, America's favorite foods can cause cancer. The new warning today about hot dogs, bacon, sausage. What you need to know.

And right now, the woman accused of plowing into this parade crowd, killing several, include a child, is appearing in court. Find out what has just happened inside.

This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:57] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The caucus, February 1. We're talking Iowa. This is the first major electoral event of the presidential election season. And for the third time, Iowa has shown it favors Ben Carson over the front runner thus far, Donald Trump. But this just released poll by Monmouth University shows Carson is a whopping 14 points ahead of Trump among likely caucus goers in Iowa. Two polls released just a couple days ago both show Carson with a similar lead. So, as Dr. Carson pushes ahead in the polls, will the Trump offensive get even harsher? Here is Donald Trump questioning Carson's religion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh Day Adventist, I don't know about - I just don't know about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, CNN's special correspondent Jamie Gangel and Bob Cusack, editor in chief of "The Hill."

So wonderful to have both of you with me.

Bob, to you first. I want to begin with what's happening here in Iowa. Dr. Carson ahead by 14 points.

BOB CUSACK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE HILL": Yes.

BALDWIN: Trump is hitting him, questioning his religion. This has to be all about the evangelical vote in Iowa.

CUSACK: No, absolutely. I mean Trump is suggesting that Carson's faith is extreme and Carson has gone out of the way to say, listen, faith is less important as your relationship with God. But certainly this is a dig at Carson. And we're entering a new phase, I think, on the GOP side. Here you have for the first time clear proof that Carson is on top in Iowa. And can Trump get back on top in Iowa? I think it's - I think it's very interesting, especially going into the next debate.

BALDWIN: How much does it matter if Trump loses that Iowa caucus? How big of a deal is that?

CUSACK: Oh, I - actually, it's not that big a deal if you look at - at history. And usually Iowa and New Hampshire voters split on who they want. If you look back, 2012, Rick Santorum won Iowa. Go back 2008, Mike Huckabee won it. And, of course, they didn't win the nomination. So Iowa is important. It can give you a big boost. But if you do win Iowa and then you do win New Hampshire, history shows you're - you're on your way to the nomination.

BALDWIN: Jamie, let's pivot and talk Jeb Bush. And first, let me just play a little sound from Saturday. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have plenty of energy. But, you know, I am soft spoken. I do have a tendency to - to be relaxed. I wasn't always like that. There was a time when I was, you know, very volatile. But, you know, I changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If this election is about how we're going to fight to get nothing done, then I don't want anything - I don't want any part of it. I got a lot of really cool things that I could do other than sit around being miserable listening to people demonize me and me feeling compelled to demonize them. That is a joke. Elect Trump if you want that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Whoo! So that was Jeb Bush over the weekend. You say there's a new Jeb Bush in town. You have also some details on this closed door, what, donor session between George W. Bush, Jeb Bush. So give me the skinny on both ends.

[14:20:10] JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, first of all, there's no question that they are shocked to be in this place in the polls and in the campaign right now. That said, there is a new Jeb Bush in town and that was not an accident this weekend. Expect to hear more of it. Sources close to the campaign tell me that Jeb Bush now feels empowered to speak his mind.

BALDWIN: Because of what specifically?

GANGEL: I think he's frustrated. I think he realizes, here he is, 8 percent right now. You know, Trump/Carson phenomenon, he can't believe. So no more Mr. Nice Guy. He's going to be speaking out. I mean look - in one way, what does he have to lose at this point?

BALDWIN: True. True.

GANGEL: Right? So he's going to say what he thinks. And that was not an accident the other day. And it's not going to be a solitary instance. I think when we see the debate on Wednesday night, you're going to see some fireworks. I think Jeb Bush has an agenda to take control of that debate. This is substance, business. This is his wheelhouse.

BALDWIN: What do you know about this donor meeting today?

GANGEL: Right. So the donors - the campaign has pushed back on these reports that the donors are panicked and they say that's not the case. Are the donors happy? No. But the reality is, these donors are very loyal to the Bush family. And they do not see Kasich, Christie or Marco Rubio, the three candidates in the same lane as Jeb Bush, as viable alternatives. So for now they are sticking with Jeb Bush. BALDWIN: OK. We'll see if it's a new Jeb Bush in town come Wednesday

evening.

GANGEL: Right.

BALDWIN: Jamie Gangel, thank you so much. And, Bob Cusack, I appreciate you jumping on as well. Thank you.

Next, a new warning about some of our favorite foods, including bacon, sausage, hot dogs, apparently can all cause cancer according to the World Health Organization. But they do not stop there. We'll speak live with someone who survived stomach cancer. Hear what the doctor told him, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:30] BALDWIN: All right, bacon lovers, guilty, listen up here. The world's most trusted health body has just weighed in and the results not great. It turns out your extra helping of hot dogs and ham and sausage can cause cancer. This new study finding that even a small serving of processed meat a day can increase your risk of colon cancer by 18 percent. So, translation, hot dogs, bacon, now in the same category as smoking and asbestos. Just think about that for a second. And perhaps even more shocking, it's not just processed meat. Red meat also poses a potential risk as well. The World Health Organization saying beef, pork, veal and lamb are, quote, "probably carcinogenic" as well.

So joining me now, Pat LaFrieda, CEO of Pat LaFrieda Meet Purveyors, who - you and your family, you go back 100 years in the city -

PAT LAFRIEDA, BUTCHER AND MEAT PURVEYOR: Yes.

BALDWIN: Providing great meat to great restaurants. I've eaten it. It's delicious. But, you know, I thought, I'm going to call my meat - my meat guy, Pat LaFrieda, to tell me why, oh, we don't really have to pay attention to this. But you actually say, we absolutely do because why?

LAFRIEDA: Well, the news is that there is no new news. So nitrites and nitrates have long been linked to causing cancer. But even in moderation, it's fine. What it does, and why it's used, is because it preserves meat. It really eliminates listeria and botchalism in those types of meats that are cured. But you have to eat it in moderation because it can affect you and it is linked to being a carcinogen, which is cancer causing.

BALDWIN: You beat stomach cancer.

LAFRIEDA: Yes.

BALDWIN: And so since then you have cut out what?

LAFRIEDA: So my doctors, when I had stomach cancer in 2003, said, Pat, what is it that you're eating? Tell us your history. And as a kid growing up, the only thing I liked was bologna sandwiches. So that's a processed meat. It's not something that we make at our company. My doctors said to me, Pat, you need to eat more of your own product. Cook it from the raw state to cooked, not to buy something that's already processed, meaning cooked already and preserved with nitrites or nitrates.

BALDWIN: So essentially that being thus the hot dogs -

LAFRIEDA: Correct.

BALDWIN: The cold cuts.

LAFRIEDA: Cold cuts.

BALDWIN: Oh.

LAFRIEDA: So there's a high percentage of cancer patients in children because what do children eat, hot dogs and cold cuts.

BALDWIN: Cold cuts. That's horrible.

LAFRIEDA: Yes.

BALDWIN: And bacon as well because of the nitrates.

LAFRIEDA: Yes. So bacon's also treated with nitrites and nitrates. And I think what's more alarming and what hasn't been touched upon is that the uncured plight right now is to say, this product is uncured, meaning it has no nitrites or nitrates added to it. But in the ingredients, it will say that it includes celery extract. What is in celery extract?

BALDWIN: Do I want to know?

LAFRIEDA: High levels of nitrites and nitrates.

BALDWIN: OK.

LAFRIEDA: So I think you're going to - I think there's going to come a point where that - that all natural, uncured product line that you see at some higher end retail stores is not going to be offered anymore, at least advertised in that capacity.

BALDWIN: Isn't the meat industry though, of which you, my friend, are a part of, they are totally going to push back on what you're saying.

[14:29:48] LAFRIEDA: Well, the meat - sure. And the meat industry as a whole should push back because what the World Health Organization did was kind of link red meat and raw red meat into this by saying that the processed meats certainly are linked to cancer, but they come a little short when it comes to the red meat. They say, and red meat, probably. They didn't give any hard evidence.