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Tony Blair Apologizes for Iraq Mistakes; Chris Christie Slams Black Lives Matter Movement; Ben Carson Leading in Iowa. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired October 26, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:04]
KATHY HAUGEN, 15-YEAR-OLD SON, TAYLOR, DIED WHILE PLAYING FOOTBALL (on the phone): And then they started to track those injuries.
BRIAN HAUGEN, 15-YEAR-OLD SON, TAYLOR, DIED WHILE PLAYING FOOTBALL (on the phone): Yes, they did the same thing with concussions.
We feel like abdominal injuries are probably the third wave, because, you know, when I was a kid, if you got -- if you were dehydrated, then you just needed to suck it up. And it was really hot here in Florida, they would give you a salt tablet.
And we have learned so much since then. And with concussions, we're still learning and we're still getting better at it, but we have come a long way with helmet equipment. And we feel like that the new head- to-head contact rules and chop block rules at the torso and abdomen are going to become more and more a key targeted area.
And we need to do better to better protect our kids in ways that we can find equipment that can do that and also help perhaps train our coaches on how to have the kids tackle better.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely, the equipment, the coaches. Educate yourselves.
Kathy and Brian Haugen, thank you so much. Again, I'm so sorry about Taylor, but I appreciate you all coming on and talking about something that is so tough, but so important for so many kids in this country. Thank you both.
This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Top of the hour.
We begin with a stunning new poll that shows Donald Trump in an unfamiliar place, second place, by a lot. We're talking about Iowa, the first major electoral event of the presidential election season, and for the third time, Iowa has shown it favors Ben Carson over Donald Trump.
But this just-released poll by Monmouth University shows Carson is a whopping 14 points ahead of Trump among likely caucus-goers in Iowa. Two polls, by the way, released just a couple days ago, they both showed Carson with a smaller lead over Trump.
So, as Carson here pushing ahead in the polls, will the Trump offensive get even harsher? Here's Donald Trump questioning Ben Carson's religion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh Day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: With me now is, political director David Chalian, and on the phone, Kathie Obradovich, a political columnist for "The Des Moines Register" on the phone.
So, great to have both of you.
David Chalian, you first. My goodness, 14 points in Iowa, that's huge. This has to be all about the evangelical vote there, yes?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: A lot of it is. There's no doubt that Carson has surged to the front of the pack, Brooke, on the support from evangelicals.
They make up a huge swathe of the Republican caucus-going electorate. And, listen, Donald Trump is keenly aware of that. That sound bite you just played, that is not by accident that Donald Trump says that. He says, all I said is I don't know about the religion. But he's obviously injecting Seventh Day Adventist, Ben Carson's religion, into the campaign trail conversation because he wants it there.
And he thinks that perhaps evangelicals will scratch their head a bit and say, do I enough about this religion? Am I sure that Ben Carson is my guy? That's the purpose of throwing that into the debate.
BALDWIN: Kathie, how much head-scratching is going on where you are in Iowa with regards to folks not quite understanding this Seventh Day Adventist religion?
KATHIE OBRADOVICH, "THE DES MOINES REGISTER": What's interesting is that Donald Trump's religion is also kind of a question mark to Republican caucus-goers.
The "Des Moines Register"'s poll asked how committed do people think that Donald Trump is to his own Christian religion? And 40 percent, that was the plurality, said they don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Well, remember, what was it a couple of weeks ago, questioned Trump's religion. And Carson apologized.
OBRADOVICH: Yes, exactly. So evangelicals are a big part, a big voice in the Iowa caucuses. And
that is one thing that is really important. There is one other thing that is at work here, I think. One of the big negatives we saw in the "Des Moines Register" poll for Donald Trump, people don't like it when he's attacking other Republicans.
He's got a little bit of a catch-22 here. He is flagging in the polls. He might want to attack Ben Carson, who is rising. But what people -- the one thing people don't like about him in Iowa is that he's going to attack other Republicans.
BALDWIN: David, back to you.
I have talked about this before on the show. I think this is fascinating that unlike when Romney was running and Romney's affluence, he really took a hit for having deep pockets. Donald Trump, he hasn't. Yet there was a story earlier today, he was saying, listen, my life hasn't been so easy. I got a small loan from my dad to the tune of $1 million.
(LAUGHTER)
BALDWIN: You laugh, right?
CHALIAN: Right. That's not so small.
BALDWIN: Not so small. How will that resonate with regular folks?
CHALIAN: I don't think this really sticks to him. And part of it because how he handles his wealth vs. -- you brought up the Romney example about Romney sort of gingerly walked around it, seemed uncomfortable with it, thought it made him somehow unable to connect with regular middle-class Americans.
[15:05:10]
Donald Trump says, hey, guys, you love me because I'm rich, because I'm a winner.
BALDWIN: He owns it 100 percent.
CHALIAN: He completely owns it. Him saying a line like, oh, just a small loan and it's a million dollars, I think that's actually par for the course. I don't think that goes against the grain for most voters.
BALDWIN: All right, so brushing it off the shoulder there.
Kathie, does it really matter? Talk about the historical context. If Trump were to, based upon these Monmouth University polls, lose that February 1 Iowa caucus, no big deal for him?
OBRADOVICH: I mean, Trump has put a very high premium on his position in the polls. Every time he appears in public, he talks about how he's winning the polls. So it will be interesting to see how he handles this. In Iowa, really
what matters is how many people candidates can get out to the caucuses. And Trump talks about how many people show up at his rallies, et cetera. The organization is what converts those folks into caucus-goers.
Somebody can be doing well in the polls right now and have no organization whatsoever. In this case, I think Ben Carson does have an organization in Iowa. He is preparing to be able to convert people who like him into somebody who is going to show up at their firehouse or community center on February 1.
So does it hurt Trump if he doesn't win the caucuses? I think it does. I think he is presenting himself as a winner. Having a loss on the record doesn't go with his narrative.
BALDWIN: Someone else amongst his Republicans who would love to be in the double digits, but who has not been, I don't know if he ever has been, Jeb Bush, David Chalian. I just want to play a little sound from Jeb Bush over the weekend. And we will talking about this meeting today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If this election is about how we're going to fight to get nothing done, then I don't want anything -- I don't want any part of it. I got lot of really cool things that I could do other than sit around being miserable listening to people demonize me and me feeling compelled to demonize them. That is a joke. Elect Trump if you want that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: OK, so I was talking to Jamie Gangel last hour, who had sources within the Bush campaign. She said that's the new Jeb Bush who we're going to see. That's the Jeb Bush we will see come Wednesday night at the CNBC debate. What do you think?
CHALIAN: I think we saw some deep frustration on display there from Jeb Bush. My mouth was agape this weekend when I watched that. You just so rarely see a presidential candidate portray what they are really feeling underneath. I thought that was pretty clear.
I think, as Jamie Gangel was saying in her reporting, I think that's certainly what the Bush campaign hopes is going to show up, but I think they have been hoping for that before.
(CROSSTALK)
OBRADOVICH: So, we now sort of have to wait and see what Jeb Bush does in this moment, because there's a big moment right now where he has to convince the establishment that he is the guy that they want to ride all the way and that it will work out at the end. There's just not a lot of data right now to explain to the establishment why that should be the case.
BALDWIN: All right, David Chalian, always honest. Thank you, my friend, very much.
CHALIAN: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Kathie Obradovich, thank you as well, "The Des Moines Register."
Now to this. Crime is up across America because police officers are nervous, that coming from the director of the FBI, James Comey, in Chicago today addressing policing in America and the so-called Ferguson effect. Today, he seemed to soften his stance just a tad.
Our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, is there in Chicago with more on Comey's remarks.
What has he said most recently, Evan?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, there was a little bit of a blowback of the idea of linking the so-called Ferguson effect with what we're seeing around the country in some cities where murder rates are up.
So, today, one of the things he was trying to make sure people understood is that, look, this is not the entire explanation. What he's trying to say, Comey said, is to start a conversation. He wants people to discuss whether or not there's better ways to do more to provide more scrutiny of police while at the same time making sure officers are getting out of their car and making sure they are doing their job.
He's also saying that he's worried that this rise in crime could imperil some of the efforts that are now under way to reform criminal justice. Here's how he put it to a meeting of police chiefs here in Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: The question is, are these kinds of things changing police behavior in cities around the country? The honest answer is, I don't know for sure whether that's the case. I don't know for sure whether, if it is even the case, that it explains it entirely.
But I do have a strong sense that some part of what's going on is likely a chill wind that has blown through law enforcement over the last year. That wind is made up of a whole series of viral videos and the public outcry that followed them.
[15:10:10]
We need to be careful that 2014 doesn't drift away from us in an age of viral videos, or there will be profound consequences. If we're not careful, we will lose the space in American life to have these important conversations about reforming justice and improving the interactions of police and civilians.
(END VIDEO CLIP) PEREZ: Brooke, it's important to add here that not everybody agrees with this point of view. The White House is pushing back a little bit of this. We expect President Obama to pick up this issue when he addresses the convention of police chiefs here in Chicago tomorrow.
BALDWIN: All right, Evan, thank you very much.
Along the same vein here, coming up next, Chris Christie, he slammed the Black Lives Matter movement, saying they are calling for the murder of police officers. We will get the reaction from a Black Lives Matter organizer next.
Also ahead, say it ain't so. America's favorite foods can cause cancer, the new warning about out today about hot dogs, bacon, sausage, what we all need to know.
And new video of the raid that puts U.S. forces face to face with ISIS. See how the daring operation to rescue all those hostages actually happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:15:24]
BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN.
I'm Brooke Baldwin. New Jersey Governor and Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie lashing out at the Black Lives Matter movement. He accuses the group of inciting violence against police officers. And just on CBS' "Face the Nation," Governor Christie said this group encourages people to kill cops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "FACE THE NATION")
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The problem is this. There's lawlessness in this country. The president encourages this lawlessness. He encourages it.
JOHN DICKERSON, CBS HOST, "FACE THE NATION": Encourages it how?
CHRISTIE: Oh, by his own rhetoric. He does not support the police. He doesn't back up the police. He justifies Black Lives Matter. I mean...
DICKERSON: But Black Lives Matter shouldn't be justified at all?
CHRISTIE: Listen, I don't believe that that movement should be justified when they're calling for the murder of police officers, no.
DICKERSON: But they're not calling for the murder of police officers.
CHRISTIE: Sure, they are. Sure, they are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: With me now, professor Melina Abdullah, one of the original organizers and members of Black Lives Matter and chair of Pan-African Studies Department at Cal State L.A. Also with me, former DEA agent and homeland security expert David Katz.
So wonderful to have both of you on.
Melina, first to you. I would love to have you respond to Governor Christie.
MELINA ABDULLAH, BLACK LIVES MATTER: Sure.
I mean, I think his language is absolutely inflammatory and untrue. There's no basis for that in reality. Black Lives Matter was built out of love for our people and an honest and really sincere plea for the state-sanctioned violence against black people to stop. That's the work that we're doing.
We're not calling for any kind of violence. In fact, we are in the tradition of nonviolent direct action and demanding an end to state- sanctioned violence against our people.
BALDWIN: OK.
David, turning to you, we have heard now from the FBI Director Comey multiple times talking about the Ferguson effect. He called it the chill wind, a lot of officers -- he's the one in the know. He's talking to police chiefs across the country. And because of the crimes rising, granted, it's low generally, but in certain cities, there's been an uptick, just saying that police officers worried about being the bad guy in the video and so perhaps they're not being as proactive as they should be.
Are you surprised at what he said?
DAVID KATZ, FOUNDER AND CEO, GLOBAL SECURITY GROUP: I'm kind of surprised he came out so openly, but he's 100 percent correct.
Let's look at the -- actually the seminal incident that launched the Black Lives Matter movement. And, by the way, the concept of state- sanctioned murder of black people, that is just offensive.
But more to the point, in Ferguson, officer Brown -- no, I'm sorry -- officer Wilson, Darren Wilson...
(CROSSTALK)
KATZ: ... went to work. He was a five-year veteran, by all accounts, a good police officer, did exactly what the officer is supposed to do.
He was set upon by this a thug named Michael Brown who just moments before strong-armed an Indian-American half his size.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Come on, though. We don't need to call -- let's not -- thug?
KATZ: Well, when you walk into a store and you steal...
BALDWIN: I understand.
(CROSSTALK)
KATZ: ... and you, by force, intimidate, what word would -- what epithet would you charge?
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Let's just say Michael Brown.
KATZ: OK. Let's say Michael Brown. I have my opinion. I'm not afraid to make it.
BALDWIN: OK.
KATZ: He goes after the officer in his car. He tries to take the officer's weapon.
The officer responds and his career is ruined. The attorney general of the United States of America sits in the funeral -- at the funeral of that person who attempted to kill...
BALDWIN: Right, Eric Holder went.
KATZ: Right. Is there it something that I'm not seeing that's wrong? Absolutely.
Police officer on the street now, any time you're doing a law enforcement operation, it can go bad very, very quickly. There is no -- the number of officers that intentionally do bad things -- are there? Yes, there are. But the number is micro, is minuscule.
So, in these instances, law enforcement is not pretty. Things can go bad quickly and the officer says, I have got three years to retirement. I have got a family. I have got three kids. The first one is in college. No. Maybe I'm going to back away a little bit.
BALDWIN: Do you want to respond to that, Melina?
ABDULLAH: Absolutely.
First of all, I think what your guest is showing is a complete misunderstanding and ignorance around Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter did not begin with the murder of Michael Brown in Ferguson. In fact, we began a year earlier, when Trayvon Martin was killed in Florida and George Zimmerman was acquitted for that killing.
And so these kind of assumptions are false. These kind of -- he obviously is ill-informed about what our movement is and how we began and I think that that ignorance kind of trickles on over into and spills over into his allegations.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: First of all, Wilson had no idea what Michael Brown was doing.
[15:20:02]
He was stopped for simply walking in his neighborhood.
KATZ: Untrue.
ABDULLAH: And so that's the lives that black people live often.
When we think about the killing of Ezell Ford in Los Angeles, when we think about the killing of Redel Jones in Los Angeles, when we think about the killing of 7-year-old Aiyana Jones in Detroit and Tamir Rice in Cleveland, they were doing absolutely nothing wrong.
And so for law enforcement to declare that they have the right to stop people simply for walking while black or in the case of Aiyana Jones sleeping while black, and gun them down, even if your guest were right and Darren Wilson knew that Mike Brown may have taken something, that he shoplifted essentially, that is not a death sentence.
That's not a death penalty case. And so this is the work that we're doing, saying that black people have the right to walk and live and sleep and do that peacefully.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: And police do not have the right to target and kill us with impunity. And so that's the work we have been doing for almost two- and-a-half years. That's the work that we're going to continue to do.
And we're going to do it in a way that mobilizes our people and says that we have the right to live and we have the right to grow. We're going to transform this narrative about what public safety is. Darren Wilson and the murderous police officers that your guest is protecting are creating public safety problems, not solving them.
KATZ: Excuse me. May I?
First of all, tell that to the families of officer Liu and officer Ramos, who were shot down because someone took to heart your message. Tell that to the countless police officers every single day who go home -- who go to the hospital instead of home after work.
Darren Wilson acted correctly. Why? Because the moment he discharged his firearm, he was in reasonable fear of his personal safety and life, period. The grand jury has spoken. And the grand jury, as you know...
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: I don't want to sit here and relitigate that. That was more than a year ago.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: It's an important piece of, I think, what Black Lives Matter is trying to accomplish, but I think that the fact we're talking about this -- and I'm listening so closely to both of you, and I think this is part of Director Comey's point today.
Again, I would love to have both of you respond to this. He pointed out, for example, these hashtags, Black Lives Matter on one end and police lives matter on the other. As a result of this, people are -- it's like a group of citizens vs. police. And no one is seeing eye to eye and it's like this clash. Therefore, there's like this impossibility of any sort of solution and moving forward, Melina.
ABDULLAH: Well, I think there are possibilities of solution. And I think that the work being done by mayors like Ras Baraka in Newark, New Jersey, who is talking about redefining public safety and really getting to the root causes of violence and crime in our communities, recognizing the central role that intervention, prevention, community resources, mental health resources play in driving down crime, I think that for too long, we have lived in a society that has poured resources, too many resources into a policing system that creates an unsafe situation, especially in black communities.
And I think that we need to be more creative than that. We need to completely reimagine and redefine what public safety is. And no one at Black Lives Matter is responsible for the things that your guest is talking about.
There has been no call -- there's never been a call for us to...
KATZ: "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want them? Now."
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Do you hear what he's saying, though, Melina? I can't ignore...
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: I hear what he's saying.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: Of course you can't ignore him because he's talking over me.
KATZ: Because you're not responding.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: It's a minute -- it's a small example of the way in which police continue to try to talk down, talk over and put a message across that is simply untrue.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: And while you point to a single incident, our primary chant is black lives, they matter here. And black lives should matter. Black lives should matter ever everywhere. And it's unfortunate that police don't seem to see that.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: So, if you think that everyone's lives matter, then you should have absolutely no problem saying black lives matter.
KATZ: And I have no problem saying that. What I have a problem is, you discount the hundreds of people....
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: So, say it. Say it then.
(CROSSTALK)
KATZ: Black lives matter. Black lives matter. Human beings -- human beings matter.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: Black lives matter. Black are being killed...
KATZ: But not white lives matter.
ABDULLAH: ... not white lives, not others, black lives at eight times the rate of every other group.
(CROSSTALK)
KATZ: Do you really want to talk about statistics?
ABDULLAH: I absolutely want to talk about statistics.
(CROSSTALK)
[15:25:05]
BALDWIN: Please, let's be polite. Let's have a conversation. This is important.
(CROSSTALK)
KATZ: Do you realize -- do you realize that African-Americans commit homicide at the rate of four times that they would be expected to statistically? Why is that, Melina?
ABDULLAH: Well, one, I don't accept your statistic.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDULLAH: But, two, I think that it's really important that we understand -- I think it's really important that we understand the structural causes of violence, with black people being poorer than every other group, with black people having much higher unemployment rates than every other group, with black people having untreated mental health conditions, with black people having under-resourced communities.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Let me interrupt the both of you, because I'm going back to the FBI director, because, listen, I would love to talk to a lot of active cops. And I have in Baltimore.
But it's difficult, and I have to trust the director of the FBI, who is talking to a lot of police chiefs. And, again, he goes back -- and I hear you, Melina. And a lot of this is about, like, really truly understanding the root cause of violence.
But this is part of what Comey has said that has made news. He lists these roots of violence, yes, drugs, gang warfare, availability of guns. He says these are all useful suggestions, but it doesn't explain both the math and the calendar in disparate cities over the last 10 months, so the math in terms of an uptick in violence and the calendar in the wake in particular of Ferguson.
How would you respond to Director Comey, final question?
ABDULLAH: Well, I think that those points that he's making still are not the root causes of crime and violence.
The root causes of crime and violence are not drugs. Where do drugs come from? Why are people engaging in the particular crimes that they are engaging in? Why are people -- and we can also think about our communities being overpoliced and not getting to those root causes.
In my city of Los Angeles, we have had a 35 percent increase in black homelessness. We have had a 52 percent unemployment and underemployment rate in the black community. And so those kinds of things, the black jobs crisis, the black housing crisis, the black health crisis, are all the root causes of crime and violence.
And I would love to see us get to those kinds of questions, which are structural in nature.
BALDWIN: OK. Melina Abdullah, thank you both for your perspective.
David Katz, thank you.
KATZ: Wish I had another two minutes.
BALDWIN: I appreciate it. I have a feeling both of you will be back. It's a conversation that needs to continue.
ABDULLAH: Thank you very much.
BALDWIN: I thank you both.
Coming up next, a stunning admission. Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair is apologizing for the mistakes made in the invasion of Iraq in 2003. But he refuses to apologize for one very specific thing. Fareed Zakaria joins me next.
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