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Carson Knocks Trump from Top; Outrage in South Carolina Over School Resource Officer Actions; FBI Opens Student Takedown Case. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 27, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to stay on top of this story, obviously.

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back, 5:00 p.m. Eastern in "THE SITUATION ROOM." CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you.

Here we go. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.

You know what, we're about to find out what Donald Trump is like in second place because he is now the Republican frontrunner no more, at least not today. Ben Carson, Trump's fellow Washington outsider, is the new man to beat.

Take a look at this new national poll. This is out today by CBS News and "The New York Times." It shows 26 percent of Republican primary voters say they back the retired pediatric neurosurgeon. While 22 percent still stand with Trump. The rest of the pack, languishing in single digits.

Let me bring in our politics executive editor, Mark Preston, with all the latest numbers from Washington.

Mark Preston, all right, so, obviously, this is huge for Carson. Is this, I don't know, a single poll and outlier? Could this be part of a much bigger picture, much bigger trend? What say you?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, you know, no doubt, Brooke, this is a big moment in the Republican presidential campaign. This is the first time Donald Trump has not led in a poll since July. Now to the question, is it an outlier? In many ways it is not. We've actually seen this trend over the past week or so in Iowa where Ben Carson had been number two to Donald Trump. We have now seen several polls out of Iowa that shows that Ben Carson is now number one and Donald Trump is in second place. And if you're Donald Trump right now -- look, it's still early in the race, but if you're Donald Trump right now, you have to wonder why is he trending down while Ben Carson is trending up.

BALDWIN: Can we talk about this new Ben Carson ad? If you haven't seen it, here you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Ben Carson and I'm running for president. The political class and their pundit buddies say, impossible. He's too outside the box. Well, they do know impossible. Impossible to balance the budget. Impossible to get border security. Impossible to put aside partisanship.

I'm Ben Carson. I'm running for president. And I'm very much outside the box. There must be a good idea in there somewhere.

I'm Ben Carson, and I approve this message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I get it, you know, he's this outsider, you know, candidate, but when you read some of the critics, they're like, really, you need to stand outside of a box to make your point. What do you think?

PRESTON: No, very -- very simple, though, Brooke, right? A very simple message in trying to burnish his credentials of being an outsider. You know, this is the third ad we've seen from him the last couple weeks where he makes a point to say that he is not part of the political class. And it is working certainly with folks across the country.

Let's just look at these poll numbers right here, Brooke, just to accentuate that. You know, he is winning across the board with men. He's winning across the board with women. He is winning across the board with folk who are evangelical, folks who are somewhat conservative and some folks who are very conservative. So when you match that up, his message, his simple message, is resonating. The question is, how long can it resonate?

BALDWIN: Mark Preston, thank you very much. Iowa caucus, February 1, still a couple of months away here as we look to that first contest.

Meantime, you know, Carson supporters, they say he's great for all of his straight talk, you know, soft spoken common sense. Others say maybe soft spoken doesn't mean well spoken. For example --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've allowed the purveyors of the vision to make mothers think that that baby is their enemy and that they have a right to kill it. Can you see how perverted that line of thinking is? During slavery -- and I know that's one of those words you're not supposed to say, but I'm saying it -- during slavery, a lot of the slave owners thought that they had the right to do whatever they wanted to that slave.

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": You think being gay is a choice?

CARSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Why do you say that?

CARSON: Because a lot of people who go into prison, go into prison straight and when they come out they're gay. So did something happen while they were in there?

I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You're in the number one spot, you're under a microscope here.

Let's discuss this with CNN political commentator and former Reagan White House political director Jeffrey Lord, and also conservative commentator Kurt Schlichter.

Fellows, welcome. Nice to talk to both of you.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Brooke.

KURT SCHLICHTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR, COLUMNIST: Good to talk to you.

BALDWIN: Kurt -- let me begin with you, Kurt, because, you know, you heard the mashup there. Clearly the majority of, you know, Carson supporters in Iowa polled agree with his analogies involving slavery and Hitler. We heard a little bit there. Another example from "The Des Moines Register" poll, Carson has said Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery, 81 percent approve. He said Nazi party leader Adolf Hitler may not have been as successful if the people had been armed, 77 percent like that. My question is here, Kurt, is it just Iowans who majority agree or hard core red states as well?

[14:05:10] SCHLICHTER: Oh, I -- Brooke, I think -- I think Ben Carson says a lot of things that you're not supposed to say. You're not supposed to say that an armed citizenry can resist tyranny. You're not supposed to say and describe the brutality of the abortion machine.

Look, Ben Carson is an interesting, interesting candidate because he represents normality. There is nobody more normal than Ben Carson. He's calm, he's collected, he's accomplished. He's the kind of guy you'd want as a neighbor because you know you could go next door and borrow his lawn mower if you needed it and he's not going to have any drama and weirdness.

I think that's one of the reasons Donald Trump's going down, because the guy's exhausting. He's tiresome. He's loud and annoying. He's entertaining for a little while, but eventually the party ends and you've got to take the lamp shade off. I think that's why Ben Carson's trending up and Donald Trump's trending down.

BALDWIN: OK, let me just first say, I don't know if, you know, we care so much about a potential president being someone you want to borrow a lawn mower from, but point taken.

On the Trump notion, Jeffrey he teed it up perfectly for you, you know, yes, Trump is going down. This is now this national poll, which is a big deal, so we're about to see what Trump is like in second place. Give me a preview, Jeffrey Lord, of what this version of Trump will look like?

LORD: Well, what he's going to do, I'm sure, is do what all successful presidential candidates do, which is draw the divide to highlight the difference between himself and the other candidates. He's been doing that. He -- I'm sure he will continue to do that.

I took a look back at past primaries both in the Republican and Democratic parties going back as far as 1960. And when there was a hot, contested race, believe me, the number one and number two candidates were out there doing exactly that. Generally speaking, they made up, at the very end, when somebody emerged as the winner, but they do --

BALDWIN: But how does he -- Jeffrey, forgive me, but you said --

LORD: Yes.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE) you know, show himself and the differences between Trump and other candidates. How does he draw that line in the sand specifically with fellow outsider Ben Carson?

LORD: Sure, immigration -- sure. Immigration is one of the issues. If I'm not mistaken, I think Dr. Carson is essentially, you know, about a path to citizenship, which in Republican circles, conservative circles, reads as amnesty. So I'm sure that Donald Trump will make that an issue. I mean that's one issue right there that I think is very important, very critical.

BALDWIN: We --

LORD: And, you know, one --

BALDWIN: Go ahead. Go ahead.

LORD: One of the things about -- I'm sorry, Brooke, go ahead.

BALDWIN: No, we're being too polite. You continue and then I've got -- I have a follow-up for you.

LORD: OK. I mean one of the things, as we look at these different categories of voters, they're not stick figures. You know, evangelicals, and I discussed this with somebody in Iowa whose -- whose close with the evangelicals in Iowa, is that they're not stick figures, which is what I've been saying. They're more about --

BALDWIN: But what do you mean by that, not stick figures?

LORD: The (INAUDIBLE) other issues, illegal immigration being one.

BALDWIN: What do you mean by that, not stick figures? I'm not following.

LORD: Well, in other words, they're not all about -- they're not one issue candidate -- one issue people. In other words, it's not solely a question about just somebody understand or reflect my evangelical religious beliefs. They're concerned about the economy. They're concerned about illegal immigration. They're concerned about national security. There are other issues here that they are concerned with and they certainly resonate with Donald Trump on some of those.

BALDWIN: OK.

Kurt, I know Donald Trump is not your favorite, but go with me here, because if you are -- you know, listen, he was in the number one spot for essentially 100 days and now he's dipped to number two by a bit. And this is a guy, he was a TV executive. I mean he looks at these polls like I'm sure he looked at, you know, TV ratings. And the fact that he's number two, this is not going to sit well -- well for him. Do you think if you are a Donald Trump and you want to get back in that number one spot, do you -- do you try to use more controversial language and analogies on the trail?

SCHLICHTER: Well, Brooke, I think that would be the easy way and that might be the path he takes. But Donald Trump is cunning. You know, he's my opponent, but I respect him because he's a worthy adversary. He might -- might try something else. He might become a different Donald Trump. A more conciliatory Donald Trump. A Donald Trump that tries to get on the left of Ben Carson rather than get out to his right.

Look, anybody who underestimates Donald Trump is a fool. I don't like what Donald Trump has to say in many cases. I don't like the fact that he's not a true conservative. But you've got to respect the guy. He's cunning. I'm eager who see what he does.

BALDWIN: Conciliatory and Donald Trump, Jeffrey Lord, should that even be in the same sentence? Final question.

LORD: Well, you know, he didn't get to build his entire Trump organization by just being aggressive. There are times when you are conciliatory. And I'm sure he will be. I mean he's said repeatedly that Ben Carson's a nice guy, but that doesn't mean that he's not going to draw these differences as starkly as he can draw them and however he thinks it's best to do it. Absolutely.

[14:10:06] BALDWIN: Jeffrey Lord, Kurt Schlichter, gentlemen, I appreciate both of you. Till next time.

LORD: Thanks, Brooke.

SCHLICHTER: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Next -- you got it.

Next, anger boiling across the country after this new video surfaces showing a school resource officer, look at this, tackling and dragging a female student in this class. New details emerging about his past and now news of the arrest of a second student nearby.

Plus, he's a man who wanted to end two wars, but right now President Barack Obama is deciding on whether or not to send troops to go face to face with ISIS. And it's been called the new fountain of youth. A deep freeze therapy.

But after the death of a woman, questions now being raised about the safety of these tanks.

You're watching CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:00] BALDWIN: Welcome back. This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Here's the deal. A student doesn't listen in class, doesn't leave when she's asked to. That's one thing. But what happened next to this one teenage girl in South Carolina now has the FBI involved. Officials just announcing they have opened this civil rights investigation. Watch for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER FIELDS: OK, are you going to come with me or am I going to make you?

(INAUDIBLE)

FIELDS: Your hands -- your hands behind your back. Give me your hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We have another angle that we'll show you here in just a second. But first, a little back story.

A Richland County sheriff's spokesperson says on Monday a student at Spring Valley High School refused to obey her teacher multiple times when she was asked to leave the classroom. An assistant principal was also present here. Now, the teacher then called in school resource officer, Deputy Ben Fields. So that said, here is perspective number two.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFFICER FIELDS: Put your hands behind your back. Give me your hands. Give me your hands. Give me your hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Jason Carroll is with me.

I mean, what the what happened?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's tough to watch. It's very difficult to watch. And I think what's happening now is a number of parents in that community are looking at that video and asking themselves, would they want their daughter treated that way? Even if this daughter was being defiant, as this student allegedly was.

BALDWIN: Yes. CARROLL: And as you say, you know, not only did the student's teacher ask her to leave the classroom --

BALDWIN: The assistant principal.

CARROLL: You know, an administrator brought in, asked her to leave. She did not comply.

So, what do they do. They bring in Ben Fields, who is a sheriff's deputy. He's also an S.R.O. there, a school resource officer, brought in to handle the situation. The question that's going to be asked now during this investigation, as we look at this video is here, did he do what he needed to do to deescalate the situation? Did he use the appropriate amount of force? I think a number of people there in that community and those who have seen this video can take a look at it and say --

BALDWIN: And would say, hell no.

CARROLL: Correct.

BALDWIN: What more do we know about this deputy school resource officer's background?

CARROLL: Well, you know, there's good and there's bad, like with most people. We'll start with the good. Just last year he was awarded the Culture of Excellence Award there for being -- setting a good example in his community, being a, quote, "good role model." When you -- when you listen to some of those out there on social media, a number of the students will say, yes, this has been a good guy, but he also had a reputation with some of the students for using excessive force in the past. So this is not new. So that is there as well.

When you also look at the legal record there, back in 2007, a couple had claimed that this very same deputy used excessive force on them when responding to a noise complaint. One of the plaintiffs saying that he kicked him, slammed him into the ground, but the jury found in favor of this deputy. And then again in 2013, a student also claimed that Fields accused him, falsely the student says, accused him of belonging to a gang. That case still pending.

BALDWIN: What is the issue? Why was another student arrested as a result of this?

CARROLL: Yes. And then we have another student as well. This was another student who was in the class who became upset about what was going on.

BALDWIN: While the school resource officer was in there?

CARROLL: Correct.

BALDWIN: OK.

CARROLL: While in this math class there at the high school, and spoke out about it. And when she stood up and spoke out about it, he said, I'm going to arrest you too. So she also found herself facing a charge of disturbing schools. This is the same charge that that student that you see there is now facing as well.

BALDWIN: As we mentioned, the FBI launching a civil rights investigation. There's a lot more to tackle. You'll stay on it. We're talking to lawyers and a state representative from this district coming up next hour.

CARROLL: Yes.

BALDWIN: Jason Carroll, thank you so much.

Next, as I mentioned, deeper dive on this. We'll speak with a school resource officer. What kind of training do they get? What's appropriate, what's not when it comes to the use of force? What's protocol when a student doesn't listen? That conversation is coming up.

Also ahead, more on our breaking news. A pretty stunning admission, the United States, today, saying the president is deciding whether to send more troops back to war. Specifically, to go toe to toe with ISIS terrorists.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:23:27] BALDWIN: Back to the violent arrest of a student in her classroom in Columbia, South Carolina. This story has sparked a nationwide outcry. And among the voices, Democratic presidential frontrunner Hillary Clinton. She tweeted this in reaction. Quote, "there is no excuse for violence inside a school. The #AssaultAtSpringValleyHigh is unacceptable. Schools should be safe places." Signed "H." "H" means she tweeted this herself.

With me now, the executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers, Mo Canady, and criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Carmon St. George.

So, welcome to both of you.

And, Mo, I mean, you oversaw school resource officers for 12 years. I just want to begin with you. You've seen the video. You've seen the two different perspectives. Your reaction?

MO CANADY, EXEC. DIR., NATL. ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL RESOURCE OFFICERS: Well, my first reaction comes with a comment. Our National Association, South Carolina is one of the states where we're not allowed to train because the state conducts their own S.R.O. training. So I can't speak to how the officers are trained to deal with that situation.

But, you know, one of the questions in my mind would be, what brought this about? You know the part we're not getting to see is everything that happened that led up to this. And so there's two lines of thought. Was it a criminal act that occurred that brought the S.R.O. into the environment or was it a school discipline situation? And in that case, if it were a school discipline situation, the S.R.O.s we train, we train them to, if at all possible, allow the school administration to handle that as best they can. So again, it just depends on what led up to this.

[14:25:05] BALDWIN: Let me -- let me interject. And, again, this is -- this is all we know so far. This is not a full picture. But so far we understand it was verbal, right? So it was this young woman not listening to this teacher when asked to leave. I don't know if this was just a -- you know, a student being mouthy, as some teens can be. An assistant principal brought in and the student still wouldn't leave. But if it was a verbal altercation, would physical response from a school resource officer be justified?

CANADY: You know, school resource officers, that's one of the most unique jobs in law enforcement. It takes a very unique individual who understands that to some degree students have a different way about them sometimes. And, you know, they're going to say and do things that we might not like, but are not necessarily criminal in nature. So we do guide S.R.O.s that we train in regards to that and be sure that you're on guard to know the difference between, you know, something that's uncomfortable and you don't like, as compared to something that's criminal. Again, not suggesting that either of these are the case in this situation, and I am anxious to see what the investigation will yield in this.

BALDWIN: Carmen, let me turn to you and, you know, trying to see both sides. This is just tough when you see this young woman flipped upside down in a desk and yanked out of this classroom. But we know this on the officer has been sued for excess force in the past. Before that, a couple had filed a lawsuit and lost their case. He has also, you know, as Jason Carroll was rightfully pointing out, this is also a good guy. He's gotten an award for the Culture of Excellence Award. When you look at this case, how do you weigh all of those factors in his past?

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY/FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, Brooke, as a prosecutor, you would weigh it as, you know, how are you going to move forward and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his actions were not reasonable. And what was the student doing? As a defense attorney, you're saying that he's acting outside what he should be doing in a classroom to protect them. And now the FBI is investigating this case. And so we're going to see whether this is going to be a civil investigation, where the targets would be school district perhaps in accordance -- addition to the police department, or a criminal investigation where his prior bad acts, his prior bad conducts and cases, would come into play and eventually would be used to punish him for the act.

But what we're hearing now is that there's information that the student may have been on her cell phone and refusing to put her cell phone away. So there comes a point where, how much do you have to say to a student before you're authorized to physically take that student, who's essentially disrupting other members of the class.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Absolutely.

ST. GEORGE: You know, you send your kids to school. We didn't have to deal with this because we didn't have cell phones. BALDWIN: We didn't have cell phones when we were in school, right.

ST. GEORGE: You know, but now we have this whole other play where we have people videotaping what's happening. There might be the situation, as a defense attorney, you're going to find out and explore, what was she feeling? What were the other students feeling? You don't hear anybody saying a peep other than the officer. She may have been in fear of her life.

BALDWIN: Apparently there was, Mo, to you, another student who did say a peep and it was someone within this classroom, as Jason Carroll, our correspondent was just saying. You know, somebody, another female student, stood up and was irked that this was all going down. And so she, according to Jason and our reporting, was arrested as well by the school resource officer.

CANADY: Yes, I saw that in the news before I came in and was a little surprised by that. But, you know, certainly --

BALDWIN: Why were you surprised?

CANADY: I've seen situations -- well, I've seen situations happen like this occasionally where, you know, we've got a student that let's say is committing a criminal act. We're having to arrest them and take them out of school. And another student doesn't like it, so they act out on behalf of it. And then at what point does that become disorderly? And I'm assuming she got disorderly in the classroom. But, usually more often than not, it's just the one student that we're dealing with if they're committing a criminal act. Pretty much no one else wants to get involved in that when they see that happening. So that's what surprises me about it.

BALDWIN: Again, you know, getting a statement from this sheriff saying it is the FBI talking the lead here. They don't want any issues with the community with regard to any sort of conflict of interest in the investigation. So it's the FBI here.

Mo and Carmen, thank you so much.

ST. GEORGE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up, have you heard about this deep freeze therapy, otherwise known as cryo therapy. It's a new method, treating muscle pain. But one woman died just recently after climbing inside one of these freezing cold chambers. What is this? How is it supposed to work? How safe is it? We'll discuss all of that.

[14:29:56] Plus, breaking news today, the president deciding whether to send U.S. special forces on the ground in the fight against ISIS, both in Syria and Iraq. Hear what ISIS fighters told our own correspondent in the region about the possibility of Americans coming face to face with them.

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