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Dramatic Raid May Have Stopped Another Horrific Terrorist Attack. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: -- indication terrorist groups have tried to exploit the flow of migrants and this big market really of false documents out there. Again, no indication yet that these men in Honduras or these in St. Martin had anything to do with terrorism. Obviously, everybody's dial is a little turned up right now because everybody is very, very nervous about what's happening in the world in the wake of what happened in Paris. Again, we want to make sure that people understand the context of everything that has happening here.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Appreciate the context and perspective.

Evan Perez, thank you so much.

And Chris Cuomo, back to you in Paris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. Let's get back now to what looked like a war zone just outside Paris this morning, 5,000 rounds fired, explosions, all part of a bloody operation here. French police say that their teams arrived quote "right in time to prevent another attack." They stormed these two apartments on the same street in this area just outside Paris called Saint-Denis (ph). It is a suburb really north of Paris. It was a major operation. They got eight suspects, two supposedly killed in it as well.

Again, 5,000 rounds. When you look at that building, it looks like it is something out of a war zone, not here just on the fringe of north Paris. The floors inside are almost unstable because of the amount of munitions that were used. Why did the authorities have to do that? Because of what they were dealing with in terms of fire received from the bad guys inside. One woman suicide bomber turned out to be exploded her own belt. They had heavy small arms fire as well coming at them. The shootout itself lasted an hour.

Let's turn to CNN's Erin Burnett.

Now Erin, you went into the neighborhood. You talked to the people there who somehow had to make normalcy out of all of that at the beginning of their day. What did you hear?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, OUTFRONT: You know, it was amazing, Chris. As you get close, all the stores are closed. Obviously, they would ordinarily be open. It is a middle class and then as you get further in lower middle class neighborhood. And yes, it was completely a war zone. We had a chance to talk to some people. You know, they were terrified this morning. Actually talked to a man who lived right across the street. Showed me everything that he saw. I mean, it was incredible, 35 minutes he had of the footage of the shooting, nonstop shooting and shooting and shooting and explosions and detonations.

When it all started, he thought it was some sort of a garbage truck. Then they heard the police storm in, the shouting, and the shots. And they all ran downstairs to watch this. But they were terrified. And I think also Chris, important to emphasize, a lot of these people that are in this neighborhood, I mean, you certainly have some sort of, you know, criminal element, but also illegal immigrants. And I talked to, you know, one man, even illegal immigrant from Nigeria. He is not here in France legally. That's part of the reason he was afraid to talk and it also part of the reason a few of these men that I talked to indicated that maybe people hadn't wanted to call police or call authorities to tell them that they thought Abaaoud was in their neighborhood yesterday.

CUOMO: Well, that's really important perspective, though because that is a big part of this dynamic, Erin. As you know well and the rest of us are learning, there is a little bit of a division here between these Muslim communities and French society in general. And that is something that leads into areas like Saint-Denis. So this is important reporting. We'll see the rest of it with Erin tonight on "OUTFRONT" at 7:00 p.m. eastern, of course.

Thank you, Erin.

All right. We also have a lot of new details today to tell you about. It was once believed that those who got involved into this type of radical Islamism were misguided idealists. Not anymore. They are petty criminals that have being picked for radicalization. You're going to hear a story about how two street criminals got picked up for the same crime four years ago, did some time together inside and wound up planning and executing Friday's Paris attacks. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:33:20] CUOMO: The Paris attacks have us asking an all-too- familiar question, what kind of people would so wantonly abuse humanity? Well, we are getting some insight into that and new details that are emerging about the personal connections between one of the Paris attackers and the suspected ringleader. CNN has learned from Belgian prosecutors that the eighth terrorist from Friday and the alleged planner of all of this spent time in prison together after being picked up for the same crime in 2011.

Now, let's discuss how you go from something so small like that to being involved in something as terrible as what just happened.

Joining us now, Benjamin Haddad is a French diplomacy and security expert at the Hudson Institute. Now, his brother was also inside the French stadium during Friday's attack. Also here with him is Naveed Jamali, a reserve naval intelligence officer and special contributor to the "Military Times."

Let's start with your brother, though, that's what matters most here, Ben. How is he? Is he OK?

BENJAMIN HADDAD, FRENCH DIPLOMACY AND SECURITY EXPERT, HUDSON INSTITUTE: He's OK. He's fine like other the people in the stadium. As you know, the attack against the stadium was not carried out as the suicide bombers had planned.

CUOMO: All right, good. That is good to know. And I'm sure just because he wasn't physically injured doesn't mean he doesn't have to deal with everything he experienced there. That makes him like so many in this city right now. So we wish him the best going forward.

Let's talk about what this all means. The idea that it's not about being some misguided idealist anymore, someone who is about the cause. It's that they're using criminals and radicalizing them and getting them very far in a short amount of time, to go from 2011 where you get picked up for robbery, do a little time inside to being a planner of something like what happened Friday. How does this happen? Why pick this guy and how does it accelerate so quickly?

[15:40:08] HADDAD: Well, this is what these radical groups have been doing for a while, actually. Prisons in France have been one of the main victors of radicalization with radicalization with radical Imams that are picking up vulnerable people who are looking for a fight who sometimes have a thirst for violence as well. And some of the radicals and the terrorists that they were involved in previous attacks in France have been radicalized in jail. That was the case of (INAUDIBLE), for example, who killed the Jewish kids in Toulouse in 2012 or (INAUDIBLE) who was the assassin (INAUDIBLE) after the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks just ten months ago.

You know, prisons or the Internet get so many victors of radicalization that are acting on youth in Europe, all over Europe, and with Syria obviously in the background acting as an inspiration, magnet, intellectual center of gravity of it all.

CUOMO: So, Naveed, let's take another step into this. How? How does that work? What's the psychology of it? You come up to a guy in prison who gets picked up on robbery and is doing time. He is a con man. He is on the make this guy. He is not necessarily looking to be a bloody murderer. What is that progression?

NAVEED JAMALI, RESERVE NAVAL INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Well, look, terrorism first of all is a criminal enterprise. And sadly, there will always be an abundance of people who are willing to take it on. It's just the case. There will always be these foot soldiers. So the bigger question is how do we detect and how do we stop it? You know, we can talk about ideology, we can talk about radicalization. I think frankly, you know, the better time and the effort of the intelligence services is spent on how we detect it. And you guys have done a phenomenal job talking about encryption. That is a huge part this. And it has really got to be part of the conversation.

CUOMO: In what context, though? Because, you know, you say it is a criminal enterprise. It's true. But these guys in the Bataclan, they are walking around taking people in wheelchairs and separating them and shooting them and the whole time they were talking about Syria and the bombing and this is what it's about. It's just the beginning. That level of deranged propaganda is no small step from, yes, I like to do things in a rough way. I will get down with you guys as well. That's a big leap. That's what I want to know is how do they make it so successfully with so many?

JAMALI: You're absolutely right, Chris. The reality, though, is, again, there's a difference between aspiration and actually being able to practically implement this. And sadly, you know, the world events, there will always be people -- we have radical Imams. We talked about Syria. There is always going to be, you know, we talked about the economic inequalities in Europe. I mean, I'm half-French, you know. This is a problem.

That being said, there's a big difference between aspiration and actually being able to practically implement this. And the operational part of this is really -- there is going to be always people who feel these things. It is the difference between those people and those who are actually -- who actually physically carry this out that we should focus on.

CUOMO: And obviously when you talk about the operational capabilities, that's where the ease of movement comes into play, specifically in Europe, specifically within France with what we're dealing with right now where they're able to go to Syria, come back with their passport, tough to detect them, loose boundaries, ability to fly in somewhere else and make their way here, complicating it further.

But Ben, when you look at the time line, 2011 the guy is looking to get paid, this, you know, a robbery guy. He is a smash-and-grab guy. And a little bit of time, four years later, he is planning a coordinated commando-style attack through Paris killing almost 150 people?

HADDAD: Well, what I think that tells you is the ability of ISIL to recruit and train and deploy assets. I think the emphasis here is you're absolutely right. Look, these guys have aspirational desires, but at some point I'm sure it will be shown that they actually received practical hands-on training to carry this out as well as infrastructure support. That is what separates it.

Again, there will always be these aspirational foot soldiers that exist. The difference is the infrastructure, the ability to support them. And frankly, I think you hit the nail right on the head. The ability for ISIL to reach out to these guys, to train them in such a quick order is a game changer and frankly it's frightening.

CUOMO: I hit it right on the head, and yet, I really struggle to understand it, but thank you.

Ben Haddad, Naveed Jamali, thank you for talking us through what is certainly going on all around us.

Brooke, back to you in Washington.

BALDWIN: All right, Chris, thank you so much. As the manhunt continues for people tied to the Paris attacks, Turkey also detained multiple people today suspecting they, too, have links to ISIS. We have those details coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:11] BALDWIN: All right. We are getting some breaking news here of an attack. This is getting this from the Marseilles prosecutor telling CNN three young men on two scooters stopped and stabbed a Jewish teacher in -- from a Jewish school (INAUDIBLE) of Marseilles. One of the young attackers apparently had a t-shirt with an ISIS symbol. They then insulted him, threatened to kill him. They then, and I'm quoting this prosecutor here, stabbed him in the stomach, arm and legs. The teacher is not dead. He is not in critical condition. Quoting again the prosecutor, the attackers had a phone with a picture of the attacker from the Jewish school in Toulouse back in 2012. The attackers were then blocked on the street by another vehicle. They ran away. Still looking for those attackers. The investigation ongoing. So that happening in Marseilles in France.

All the while following the terror raids here in Paris. In Turkey, for example, police say eight suspected ISIS sympathizers were detained in Istanbul and later deported back home to Morocco. Documents indicate they plan to make their way to Germany. By way of Greece planning to take a migrant route used by tens of thousands of refugees fleeing the civilian war.

Joining me now from Istanbul is Iyad Madani, the secretary general of the organization of Islamic corporation or OIC. It is the second largest intergovernmental organization in the world after the United Nations.

So, Mr. Secretary General, thank you so much for being with me.

[15:50:46] IYAD MADANI, SECRETARY GENERAL, ORGANIZATION OF ISLAMIC CORPORATION: Well, thank you.

BALDWIN: Let me begin, sir, with Turkey where you are right now, an area through which a number of refugees and also a number of these terrorists pass through just by sheer geography in neighboring Syria. And as we're learning in some of these case some jihadists are in fact posing as refugees. Do you think Erdogan, do you think Turkey is doing enough to stop this?

MADANI: Well, Turkey is a great country. And it's an open country. There are thousands, millions of tourists who come and go. So I think Turkey's doing whatever it can do.

But, you know, building walls, building another billion walls will not help us any. I think if you want to face up to this thing, to this phenomena of terrorism of extreme violence, you have to understand the context that causes, the roots, the environment where such phenomenon breeds. That's what you need to do.

I think security measures, military bombardments will not do the trick. This should be part of a larger approach. And we can talk about what's happening in Syria, what's happening in Iraq to see how environments conductive to the appearance of such groups are the core problem. Are the, you know, elements that we have to face up to. It's unfortunate that all that's money, all the efforts, all this spent on military action. All you hear about is military action in Syria. Military action in Iraq. But what about the political context? What about the social economic environment? What about dismantling the discourse on both sides? This is really where our efforts should be addressed. And this is where we in the OIC try to focus on.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you about that, if I may. Because I think to your point about the larger picture and even beyond Syria and Iraq, your organization is launching this anti-extremism messaging center. Tell me what you're doing.

MADANI: Well, if I may just go back a little bit. You know, since 1990, Brooke, the OIC has initiated action, have foreseen a problem coming. And we have agreed as a community of nations all 57 member states to have a convention on how to face up to international terrorism, a code of conduct. And since then our effort as an OIC, as an organization never ceased.

This messaging center aims at dismantling the discourse, Brooke. We think that what you call ISIS we call the non-Islamic state. These are just criminals. And we should deprive them from the legitimacy they claim for themselves. Where they base, you know, out of context illiterate and literate references to and quotations to justify their action.

But all of that, let me repeat myself, needs an environment. And this is where we are focusing our messaging center to. You know, let me get out of Syria and Iraq. If you go to another terrorist group like Boko Haram in northeast Nigeria, you can see hoards of young people roaming the streets with no job, with no purpose, with no, you know, sense of being. And suddenly you come and promise them a source of income, you make them feel important, you make them feel like they are part of a community and you recruit them.

The core cause is how to get those people out of that hopelessness. How to create opportunities. How to open windows of hope.

BALDWIN: And that is precisely the key issue. And I know what the OIC is working to do. It's with the common denominator among all these groups, the youth, the disenfranchised, to your point about socioeconomics, we need groups like yours and others to educate these young people that there are other better ways.

Mr. Secretary General, thank you so much. The organization of Islamic Cooperation.

Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

Want to get back to our breaking news. As I was reporting a moment ago, this Jewish teacher stabbed by ISIS sympathizers in the south of France, this is the city of Marseilles according to French prosecutor there. More when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:59:49] JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I am Jake Tapper live in Paris, France. And this is "the LEAD."

We begin with breaking news. New extraordinary developments here. We now know Friday could have happened all over again. Police say a dramatic raid may have stopped another horrific terrorist attack. Among the dead, the suspected ring leaders' cousin who blew herself up with a suicide belt, French police say.

END