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Raid For Mastermind Under Way in North Paris; Suspect Mastermind Targeted in Raid. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired November 18, 2015 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
[01:00:16] ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Welcome to CNN's live coverage of the terror attacks in Paris. I am Isha Sesay.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And I'm John Vause. Our breaking news this hour. Police have pinned down a number of suspects in a northern suburb after gunfire broke out.
All part of the police anti-terror raid in Paris. Witnesses reported hearing an explosion.
SESAY: Our affiliate BFMTV reports that at least one police officer has been wounded. Authorities are hunting for two suspects from Friday's deadly terror attacks.
Senior international correspondent Atika Shubert is live in Saint- Denis where this is all unfolding. She saw a short time ago the French equivalent of a SWAT team if you will heading to the site.
Atika, bring us up to speed with what is happening where you are.
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there is no gunfire at the moment. What we can see is a very heavily armed police. We saw a number of teams inside moving information earlier. They had assault rifles and riot gear. They had their weapons pointed up towards the tops of the buildings there as they moved information down that residential street.
We also saw a helicopter with the spotlights, sort of illuminating a particular area inside there. Now we don't know exactly which building they are focused on. We do know that it is an ongoing operation. Police have told all the resident to stay inside, stay away from the windows. All public transportation to the area has been shut off. This is the closest that police will allow us to get to.
What we understand from a police source is that this is in connection to the search for those suspects of the Paris attacks. We know that at least two suspects were still on the run. We don't know which are they -- they may be tracking down here. Is it both or just one or another person linked to it? We are hoping to get more details as soon as we can -- Isha and John.
VAUSE: And Atika, we heard those reports earlier of heavy exchange of gunfire, as well as at least one explosion. Exactly what was going on when this raid began at 4:30 a.m. local time, which I guess is about, what, an hour or so, or two hours?
SHUBERT: That's right. It -- the gunfire was first heard at around 4:30. It was sort of a few volleys of what residents here described as what seemed to be automatic gunfire. They also say they heard what appeared to be an explosion. At that point, they saw a number of police heavily armed on the streets telling them to get inside, stay away from the windows. It then went quiet for a little while, but again then more gunfire.
It's been quiet since then but it does seem to have been a very serious and sustained operation. And according to police, it's still ongoing. Now we did see the SWAT team arrive earlier. I do believe we've seen a number of other specialists teams going in, possibility a forensics team. We're waiting to see who it is exactly that they are looking for inside there and what the status of it is. It has gone quiet for now -- John.
SESAY: And, Atika, of course, this line that we're getting from our affiliate BFMTV that one officer was wounded, of course, we don't know specifics, but it raises the possibility that whoever is in that building may be armed. We just don't have those details at the moment, correct?
SHUBERT: No, we -- police have not confirmed to us that a police officer was wounded. That is reporting from BFMTV. But it does indicate a very serious operation. And judging by the sound of that gunfire or residents tell us the sustained nature of that gunfire. It does seems to have been some sort of gun exchange between police and whoever it is that they were trying to pinpoint there. Again, we don't have details on exactly how many suspects are involved with this. It does appear to be more than one at this point, but we're just -- we're waiting for confirmation from police.
VAUSE: So, Atika, if you were to describe the scene now, does it seem as if this so -- now a scandal that there are police which have barricaded off the area, you've got, you know, this public transport, the barricades are up, people being told to stay inside, the helicopters in the air and there's no gunfire ongoing, but certainly the police are staying firm where they are.
SHUBERT: Yes, exactly. They sort of sealed off the area. Residents are staying in their places. And judging by what I saw, that formation, that unit sort of moving down the street with their guns up, it looked like they were sort of sweeping through the area to check.
[01:05:04] Now I don't know what that means in terms of where we are in this police operation. What I do know from police, however, is that it is still ongoing and we are still seeing units arriving at the scene, so this is not over yet.
SESAY: All right. Atika Shubert there live on the scene in Saint- Denis where this operation is ongoing. It is just past 7:00 in the morning there in France. Atika, we appreciate it. Do stand by for us. We're going to continue
the follow the story very, very closely.
SHUBERT: All right.
VAUSE: This has been going on for 2 1/2 hours by now.
Fred Pleitgen is also standing by, he is live for us in Paris.
So, Fred, what more can you tell us about exactly what is happening in Saint-Denis in terms of the investigation, who they may be after, what new information authorities have in the last 24 hours or so?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there certainly was a lot of information that's come through in the past 24 hours. One of the things was that one of the getaway vehicles that was apparently rented by Salah Abdeslam who is of course the man searched for in that international manhunt that's been going on for the past couple of days. That car was found in the 18th District of Paris. It was a black Renault Cleo and it has now been the third vehicle that's been found in direct connection with the attacks that happened here on Friday.
Of course you have the VW Polo that was rented in Brussels, in Belgium, that was found at the site of Bataclan raid. And then you have a black SEAT Leon that was found with three assault rifles inside. That was one of the things that led investigators to believe that possibly some of these suspects might have gotten away and possibly that it would have been more -- more than one.
Because, John, one of the other things that surfaced was a video showing that black SEAT Leon which was used in several of the shooting incidents that happened here on Friday and the authorities there believed to have seen that there was more than one person inside the car, one additional person, possibly two additional people. And so since then, the police have been saying that they believe that there is at least another attacker on the run, possibly two other attackers still on the run.
And we're going to have to wait and see how this siege there plays out where Atika is. But certainly there has been a lot of intelligence, a lot of information coming into the police over the past 24 hours as, of course, this investigation is intensively brought forward by the French police trying to search and find those and bring to justice those who are behind the attacks that happened here on Friday -- John.
SESAY: And, Fred, we are just showing our viewers some live pictures now from Saint-Denis where this operation is ongoing. We're looking at these pictures, it is a busy, busy scene. Multiple vehicles, multiple security officials, counterterrorism officials there. As we understand it, it is ongoing. They have some individuals pinned down in an apartment. We do not know exactly who they have pinned down, but we are looking at the scene where from Saint-Denis, where, as we understand it, they have closed off the roads, stopped public transportation, and this is a situation that is unfolding before our eyes. VAUSE: And what we can in the background is what appears to be an
area which is being lit up from time to time. And you'll see it in just a moment, which sort of fits in with what Atika Shubert was telling us about helicopters in the air. They have those spotlights on a particular building. We don't know exactly which building that is but they are certainly what may have been an apartment block according to some reports. We don't know that for certain.
But that is what that light was, I believe, in the background there, possibly one of the lights coming down from one of the helicopters which is above the scene right now.
SESAY: We're pointing out to our viewers that this is an area that has some residents there. This is a residential area somewhat, so we -- the police have been saying to people stay indoors, stay away from your windows.
We will of course follow the situation in Saint-Denis for you and bring you some pictures as soon as we can. We want to go straight to Belgium where we find out own Ivan Watson, our senior international correspondent, who's following the investigation from there.
And, Ivan, a number of raids carried out by the Belgian authorities as part of the search for the perpetrators of the terror attacks in Paris last Friday. Tell us what we know.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that at least three of the suspects in the Paris attacks were on the radar of the Belgian authorities months before the attacks took place. Belgian authorities telling CNN that, in fact, they feel quite overwhelmed by the challenges, the number of people that they feel they have to follow.
This small country has a population of only about 11 million people and yet per capita it is the biggest contributor of jihadis to groups like ISIS in Syria and in Iraq, with volunteer fighters going to the Middle East to fight. And many of them being recruited from the neighborhood I'm in right now, Molenbeek. And that is the neighborhood that two of the suspects, brothers, basically come from.
[01:10:10] I'm standing about a hundred feet from the home of the Abdeslam family. Two brothers, one who was a suicide bomber in the Paris attacks, the other who is a target of this international manhunt, Salah Abdeslam, come from this neighborhood and believed to be in contact or in some kind of communication with Abdelhamid Abaaoud who's been described as the possible mastermind, a Belgian member of ISIS, of the entire Paris attacks.
The investigation into this ongoing. The Belgian authorities have so far arrested two individuals since the Paris attacks, charged them with terrorism, and we don't know anything further about them per se. We do know that a vehicle that Salah Abdeslam was driving in when he was briefly stopped by French authorities and then allowed to continue after the attacks in Paris Friday night, ended up here in this neighborhood that I'm standing in right now. But he of course is still very much at large. A third brother who was detained and questioned by Belgian
authorities, he spoke out to CNN in an interview with Erin Burnett and he made a public appeal for his fugitive brother to please turn himself in. But, again, it has been some time now since we've heard of any police raids directly linked in Belgium to the Paris attacks. So we're watching closely and the Belgian authorities are saying that they are not -- they say that there is a real danger as long as Salah Abdeslam is at large.
They are preparing for the worst possible scenario. They are very much afraid that he could try to carry out further violate attacks as long as he is at large -- John.
VAUSE: OK. Ivan, thank you. Ivan Watson there with the very latest on the investigation as far as the Belgium are concerned.
Let's go to Steve Morris, a former FBI special agent who is with us here in Los Angeles.
So, Steve, we're looking at these images now of this raid which has been going on for 2 1/2 hours or so. So they've got the area surrounded. Exactly what will happen now in the coming hours? What do you think?
STEVE MORRIS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: They're probably going to try and wait these people out. The fact that you haven't heard any more gunfire indicates to me that they are comfortable with the situation, as much as they can be. What I would be curious about is how far away the police vehicle are parked. I'd want to see what kind of cordoned off area they have because if they're four or five blocks away, they may be afraid of explosives. If they're within a block of the place, they're looking at small arms only. So the police actions right now tell us.
VAUSE: OK. We're going to drop you, Steve. There is breaking news. We have this from the Agence France-Presse reporting that the suspected mastermind of the Paris attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is one of the suspects who is pinned down by police in this apartment raid. Those coming from police sources quoted by the AFP. This is as we've been saying is happening in that suburb of Saint-Denis. And Abaaoud is that Belgian national believed to be linked between Syria and European attackers.
SESAY: A man who has been implicated in a number of other attacks or attempted attacks, as well, including what we saw take place in August, that train situation.
MORRIS: Right. Right.
SESAY: Talk --
VAUSE: Sorry, Steve, if I can interrupt, clearly, when you look at the firepower, the manpower, the number of people and vehicles that they have there, surrounding this building, all of this now fits in. They've got -- the guy they've been looking for is pinned down inside this building, right? MORRIS: Right. This is not going to end well for him either way. He
is either going to be in custody or not -- or deceased.
VAUSE: Or dead.
SESAY: So, Steve, are they looking to engage with him, speak to him at this time? You have done dozens of these things. Walk us through it.
MORRIS: They would bring in what we would call in America a throw phone. They would try to put a wired phone in, toss it to him, talk to him, try to get him out. They would explain his situation. You might get a hostage negotiator in there to try and convince them to come out. But you have no idea what their mindset is.
VAUSE: Let's look at this -- let's look at the fact that they now have the man believed to be the mastermind. This is someone who the French tried to take out with airstrikes just last month and now they have him, at least according to the AFP and the sources who told them, they have him pinned down inside this building in terms of the French effort in their counterterrorism. This is a very, very big get.
MORRIS: This is huge, and they got it pretty quickly, too. And they moved quickly and they brought a lot of firepower. I mean, you see all the vehicles, the ambulance is there. They are prepared for any eventuality here. But they are not going to let this guy out. He's going to choose how he comes out.
[01:15:07] SESAY: And just to remind our viewers as they look at these pictures on their screens, these are live pictures from Saint- Denis, a suburb to the north of Paris where an operation is going on right now with French counterterrorism officials, police, I should say. They have pinned down, according to AFP, Agence France-Presse news agency, the man they believe to be the mastermind of those terror attacks that unfolded in Paris on Friday, Abdelhamid Abaaoud.
According to AFP news agency, that is the man -- we don't know if he's alone, but that is an individual pinned down in a building currently surrounded by police and counterterrorism there in Saint-Denis. These are live pictures.
If you are just joining us, we have with us Steve Moore, a former FBI agent, who's helping us make sense of what is saying place.
Steve, as you look at, there are people some might say milling around, if you will. Give us some context of the posture of people there on our screen.
MORRIS: You're going to have different perimeters. There's going to be an inner perimeter of the location, there's going to be an outer and then a larger -- large perimeter. The vehicles that you see there are going to be at the far ends of the perimeter, close enough to respond, but you are not going to be walking around that casually within sight of that apartment, assuming it's an apartment. And when you move anywhere near that apartment, those windows are going to have to be covered by the operators moving by. VAUSE: OK. So this raid is now almost three -- we're almost three
hours into this raid. We do know there was an exchange of gunfire and an explosion several hours ago.
Let's take a look at the scene as it happened.
And let's go back live now to the scene. That, of course, was what happened earlier about three hours ago. That heavy exchange of gunfire. Our Atika Shubert has been reporting live from the scene there as well. She tells us -- she has told us that it is all relatively quiet now as they settle into what is essentially a standoff right now. This is what's happening at the moment in Saint- Denis which is this suburb not far from the Stade de France which was a target of the terrorist on Friday night.
And so what we're hearing from the AFP is that the mastermind of the Paris terrorist attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is actually now pinned down with a number of other suspects, that's according to the mayor of Saint-Denis, inside what could be an apartment block -- an apartment building somewhere there in that northern suburb of France. So --
SESAY: And, Steve -- we have with us Steve Moore, a former special agent with the FBI.
MORRIS: Right.
SESAY: This is all complicated by the fact that there are people living in this area.
MORRIS: Absolutely. Absolutely. You couldn't get them out beforehand possibly without alerting these suspects that you're after. But I'll tell you, in that exchange of gunfire, I heard what I believe to be at least two different calibers of rifle-sized firepower, which would indicate that you're having crossfire. People are actually shooting back. This isn't just I saw him, I shot at him. It appeared to be some robust --
VAUSE: So when we're talking an exchange of gunfire here, and you can tell that it's different caliber, we're talking, you can hear what the French authorities said there, what the special forces have and possibly what the people inside this building have which could be AK- 47s, is most likely, right?
MORRIS: AK-47s would be most likely to be what they've got because they had it before.
VAUSE: Yes.
MORRIS: What's interesting to me is they bailed of the car and left three AK-47s. Probably to blend in with the crowd. That indicates that they know they've got more. They've got lots of ammunition, lots of weapons, and I think that might surprise people as this investigation goes on how much they have.
SESAY: One would assume, though, for the French authorities, the goal here, the best case outcome is to capture this man alive because of the intelligence that this guy could provide.
VAUSE: You want to.
MORRIS: Absolutely, you want to capture him alive for that reason for -- just basic humanity.
SESAY: Ye.
MORRIS: We want to keep the person alive. But he gets to choose that.
VAUSE: And the chances of him being caught alive? In the past when you've gone on these kinds of raids and you're in this kind of situation, what's the likelihood he will be brought out alive?
SESAY: With this kind of individuals?
[01:20:01] MORRIS: I think if you were -- if I was dealing with an individual like this, the likelihood of him coming out alive is low.
SESAY: The question is, is he looking to claim other lives in the process?
MORRIS: He would love to. He would love to. He wants body counts. He's a terrorist. He wants to take people with him. They're not going to give him that opportunity. He can choose to come out and survive, but I think he's going to choose to fight to the death.
VAUSE: OK. So let's just clarify for our viewers who may be joining us right now, 20 past 1:00 on the West Coast of the United States. It is 20 past 7:00 on a Wednesday morning there in Paris. So right now there is this massive police operation ongoing in the northern suburb of Paris. This was the scene a little earlier when we had reports coming from residents of an exchange of gunfire, which you can hear there, as well as an explosion.
We are now at a situation where we're hearing from Agence France- Presse, and this is the live scene right. But Agence France-Presse, the AFP, is reporting that the mastermind of Friday night's terrorist attack, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is in fact the target of this police operation. So we have to be very careful with our words.
Atika Shubert is live on the scene, she joins us now with more on this.
So, Atika, you are there. What more can you tell us?
SHUBERT: John, I am here, but we are being moved for this reason, as you can see. I'm sorry I'm trying to talk but as I do this, military has also been deployed here. We have a number of soldiers that are armed. They have just been stood out here on guard. Police are moving us at this point. So we may have to cut this off.
It is quiet for now. We've not heard any new gunfire. But we do see new units arriving all the time. Police confirmed to us this is still very much an ongoing operation -- John. SESAY: Atika, you've been moved out of the area completely or just
further away? What can you tell us?
SHUBERT: We're just being moved back. And I'm sorry, but I'll cut you off. We're going to move right now and we'll be back to you as soon as we can -- Isha.
VAUSE: OK.
SESAY: That's OK. Steve -- OK.
VAUSE: We'll let you go, Atika. Thank you.
SESAY: Stay safe, Atika.
What does that say to you, Steve?
MORRIS: It could be that they are evaluating the situation and determining the potential exposure to the neighborhood if there's explosives in that building. Move people far away from a debris field. That's one potential. It could be that they don't know whether people are at higher floors and may be able to shoot down streets. There's obviously a lot of -- that the police don't know.
VAUSE: OK. Steve, thank you. Stand by. We will come back to you in a moment. But Fred Pleitgen is also with us this hour. And he is live in Paris.
And so, Fred, for our viewers who are just joining us right now, let's just recap exactly what we know at this point with those, this ongoing operation in the northern suburb of Paris. And we have this word coming to us from AFP, Agence France-Presse, that the suspected mastermind of Friday night's terrorist attack in Paris, which left more than 120 people dead, more than 350 people wounded, is now, in fact, the target of this massive police operation.
So, Fred, bring us up to speed with what you have learned? What are you being told there? What more do you know?
PLEITGEN: Hi, John. Well, the latest that we're getting is that this raid apparently started around 4:30 a.m. there in the Saint-Denis area of Paris. That's when those gunshots were heard, that's when also concussions were heard, as well. And the beginning of the information that we were getting was that it was two to three people who are holed up inside that apartment. Of course, now it seems as though that is slowly being substantiated. And if, indeed, it is true that Abdelhamid Abaaoud is in there, that certainly would explain the large police and also now military presence on the ground here.
But I do have a guest with me, who's very capable, to talk about all this and give us some insight. It's Julian Theron, who's a political analyst and commentator.
Julian, thanks again for joining us once again.
JULIAN THERON, POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi. PLEITGEN: For joining us once again. Abdelhamid Abaaoud, if indeed
he is there, what would that tell you? What do you make of this information?
THERON: Well, first, it was said in "Dabique," the ISIS newspaper, that he was back to Syria. So it was reported --
(CROSSTALK)
PLEITGEN: It's a surprise. It could not be here.
THERON: Yes. Yes. Yes. But in the meantime, he's from Molenbeek, in Belgium, so there was a raid not very long time ago. So perhaps police have found some sources over there saying that he is actually in France and in Saint-Denis. So we definitely have to find out. But that would be a big step for European intelligence actually because the fact is, it is reported that he knew the terrorist of "Charlie Hebdo" or perhaps as well the terrorists who attacked the Amsterdam Paris train --
PLEITGEN: So this is someone who is involved in many of the big plots that have happened over the past year.
THERON: Pretty much. Yes. And these kind of filaments are actually always under the shadow, but in the end, they are planning a lot of choice attacks.
[01:25:02] So we can even ask ourselves like how is it possible since "Charlie Hebdo," and even before, because he has been convicted with some crimes in Belgium? So it's very important to know how is it possible to let him be.
PLEITGEN: And while the authorities have had this manhunt under way for Salah Abdeslam and now it could turn out that they were all hiding right a couple of meters from where some of these attacks took place.
THERON: Well, then it's not very surprising, but what is important to know, as well, is how armed is he, so and the situation frankly is getting calmer because the police is arriving. But perhaps it's a situation that will not end well like your analyst said.
PLEITGEN: If, indeed, Abaaoud is there, Abaaoud is there, Salah Abdeslam is there, it would show that, you know, these people were able to acquire weapons, they were able to carry out this plot. Is there any criticism of the French authorities who are in charge of security when they see that people, you know, are getting AK-47s or getting explosives?
THERON: Yes. The former President Sarkozy criticized the government saying that a lot of time has been lost since the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks, which is actually not that much of the case. We had a reform of intelligence service with a lot more money and a lot of employment, more employment in this sector. So it was not actually that much lost time, but the justice minister has been booed at the parliament yesterday. So it was very harsh criticism of the government, not much about the security services because we know that they do everything they can to prevent this --
PLEITGEN: But are people asking how this could be missed? I mean, this is a very -- seems like a very large -- we would now be talking about several apartments, cars?
THERON: Not only about the people, I mean, about the terrorists in itself, but also about the weapons. I mean, they had a lot of war weapons with ammunitions. And with the --
PLEITGEN: I have to cut you off there. We have to cut you off because we have Atika Shubert now online. She is in Saint-Denis there outside of Paris.
And, Atika, what's going on there?
SHUBERT: Well, we just saw a very unusual scene here. A number of police with masks on, with balaclavas, and armed bands that say Police Judicial. These are the investigative police. They were looking around in the crowd here among the journalists moving now down the street. They seem to be looking for something in particular. A number of male officers and a female officer also moving down there.
Again we couldn't see any of them. They have their masks on. But very unusual that they were moving in the crowd here looking for something and have now moved down the street. You can still see one of them here, still operating. They're showing their photo to -- oh, and an explosion has just gone off. This is still very much an ongoing operation. That was quite a large explosion in that direction. A second one now. Just hold on. No gunfire that we can tell so far. A third explosion. Fourth. That was much larger. Police asking them to move back. There are a number of military soldiers that are now being moved into the front, as well.
Again, John and Isha, this is very much an ongoing police operation at this point. We know that a number of suspects have been cornered. We don't know the exact number or who they are. That's another explosion that's just gone off and another. There seems to be a series of them. We don't know if these are controlled detonations or not. It's gone quiet for now. But very unusual scenes here we saw just to recap a number of those explosions we heard.
We saw a number of the police have now -- the military have been deployed on the streets, as well, in addition to the heavily armed police that are out here. We saw a number of investigative police with masks on, balaclavas, coming into the crowd of journalists, seeming to look for somebody and then moving down the streets showing a photo of some sort on their phones to the other police stationed here. Clearly looking for something.
So, again, very fluid situation. It does appear that those explosions have gone quiet for now. But we will keep on top of the situation for you -- John and Isha.
VAUSE: Atika, stay with us for as long as you can. If you feel safe where you are, please stay. If do not, please leave. OK?
SESAY: Yes.
VAUSE: But while we have you, so clearly, something is happening right now. We're not entirely sure what it is. But do you get the sense that maybe the police are moving in and that there is -- there is possible movement in this operation?
[01:30:00] SHUBERT: I definitely think that's the case. In the last 15 minutes or so, we saw a number of units moving in, including the military units behind me with three trucks with about a dozen soldiers each. were deployed around the area. They seem to be here for more security. We saw a number of police units coming in and I can still see, down the plaza there, heavily armed police moving up that residential street. The most unusual sight, again, was the sight of the investigative police coming into the crowd here, appearing to show that photo, a photo to the other police around me. They seem to be looking for something in particular. And so I'm not really sure what that means in this stage of the operation. They seem to be rather controlled explosions we heard just now. No gunfire. Again, I'm not sure what that would indicate, but it is still ongoing, and we know that this is connection to those suspects but we don't know exactly who is holed up in there -- John?
SESAY: We do not know, Atika, who is holed up in that building. AFP saying it is the suspected mastermind of those Friday attacks in Paris, Abdelhamid Abaaoud. For our viewers who may not have been following this every day, tell us about this Abdelhamid Abaaoud.
SHUBERT: Absolutely. Abaaoud is a known ISIS supporter. He has been suspected of being involved in a number of plots in Europe, in Belgium, and here in France. Most of them were thwarted, but French police and investigators now believe he may have been the person to plan out the recent attacks in Paris. Now, this is somebody who was -- is -- was active on social media posting some horrific videos of himself in fighting for ISIS in Syria. He is also somebody who is believed to have faked his own death to his own family so he could travel more freely into Europe, in Belgium and France. Now, that is particularly worrying if, indeed, that is the person holed up in there, it would be astonishing. This is somebody they have been searching for, for years now. It's quite possible that he has been hiding in plain sight here in Saint-Denis. We'll have to find out if police confirm those details.
VAUSE: Absolutely. And not far from the target of one of their attacks, the soccer stadium, the football stadium, the Stade de France.
Atika, while you're there, if you can, look around and give me an assessment of the number of troops on the ground, are they heavily armed? What sort of firepower have they brought in? You mentioned a short time ago the military arrived. What are we looking at here in terms of numbers as best you can tell?
SHUBERT: I can't tell exactly for police because we're in ohm one small area. And as far as I can tell, the police have sealed off the entire area there. You get a sense of it. You can see a number of riot -- police in riot gear with those sorts of smaller assault rifles. I've just heard another bang go off. I'm not sure if that's related or not. In addition to those police, if you can over here, you might be able to see some of the soldiers that are now moving into position. These soldiers just arrived. I saw three trucks of them coming in. There's about a dozen soldiers, perhaps more or less in each truck. They, too, have weapons. I can't exactly see what kind. They also carry some sort of gear in their backpacks and they're moving into the plaza which is where we understand most of that activity is taking place. There has also been a helicopter circling the area spotlighting where it's been happening.
Now, what we know in terms of the police operations so far, it has gone quiet, but they've circled off this area and told residents to stay inside. You can see a lot of people living here. This is a mixed use area. Residents, some of them moving towards the windows. Every time that happens, police tell them to move back in for their own safety. Still very much fluid and ongoing at this point.
VAUSE: And we use this word, really, too often, but it does right now look like a war zone out there.
SHUBERT: Especially with the deployment of military. That is mostly for public security, to keep everybody away from a dangerous area, make sure everybody is safe. It's really the police that are doing the tactical work here. And I saw earlier a unit moving up and down the street with their weapons up pointed towards the upper floors of the residential areas, looks like perhaps they were sweeping that street, maybe they're trying to comb through and narrow down.
However, I should point out, again, the most unusual sight we have seen so far are those investigative police. The police, with their masks on, coming into the crowd of journalists, actively appearing to look for somebody and then moving to the police here stationed behind me showing what appeared to be a photo on their phone, so they seem to be looking for someone in particular and then they move down the street. So we have many different teams in operation here. We also know a SWAT team is in the area. We're not sure how they're all being deployed, but it is ongoing -- John?
[01:35:54] SESAY: Atika, we appreciate it. Do stand by. Do make sure you are safe. We've been hearing these explosions go off so we want to make sure you are safe. We will come back to you.
If you are just joining us, you are watching CNN's live breaking news coverage of the situation unfolding in Saint-Denis right now. That is a suburb to the north of Paris where, as we understand it, there is an operation underway that has the suspected mastermind of Friday's terror attack pinned down in a building there in Saint-Denis. We are talking, of course, about Abdelhamid Abaaoud. The scene is inundated with police, with counterterrorism, with military officials. This is a fast-moving situation. The roads have been sealed off. Public transportation has been cut. People are being told to stay indoors.
Just a short time ago, John, we heard, what, six shoots?
SESAY: At least six explosions. We are counting them off with Atika on the scene there. And, of course, this has now been ongoing for roughly three hours. 4:30 a.m. local time there in Saint-Denis.
Let's go back to what -- the sounds of the exchange of gunfire as well as the explosions that we heard that residents nearby recorded. We have that for you. Let's listen to that exchange of gunfire when all of this began earlier today. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(GUNFIRE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Relatively quiet, the scene now relatively quiet.
Let's go to Steve Moore, former FBI special agent.
Steve, a couple of questions for you, a lot of questions for you.
SESAY: Many questions.
VAUSE: Let's start with those explosions that we were counting off with Atika, five or six explosions. What were they?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: They were one of two things. They were either entering room by room and advancing to the location, trying to find the person, throwing concussion grenade in each room --
VAUSE: Flash bangs.
MOORE: -- flash bangs, or they were disrupting suspicious devices. It was one of those two. I can think of nothing more.
One of the possibilities we have to keep in mind is that in the earlier gun fight, the terrorist might have been mortally wounded and be lying dead in there and so they may be moving closer in to where they think they are. So that would be the bangs.
SESAY: I want to pick up on a point Atika stressed that was very unusual. Individuals, investigative police with masks going among the crowd, showing what seems to be an image to certain other --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: And that's a very explainable thing. When you have somebody holed up and it's a hostage -- or a barricaded situation and they have friends who are watching on the news, they may come to the crowd. I mean, frequently, they come into the crowd and some of your bystanders are going to be sympathizers and associates of the people in the building. They may be on the cell phone telling people inside the room what the police are doing. So what the police were likely doing was ensuring that people they're looking for were not in that crowd. And that's not an unusual thing.
VAUSE: What I'm curious about is, we saw those earlier and we heard the earlier sounds from a couple of hours ago. And then in the last hour or so, the last hour and a half, this has ramped up dramatically. Does that suggest to you that maybe they didn't expect to find the mastermind, Abaaoud, and suddenly they've got this guy here and that's when they've called in the military, the Special Operations, the helicopters have come in, and it's ramped up.
[01:40:04] MOORE: It seems to me that they knew they had a hazardous entry. A high-risk entry, we would call it. They knew that going in. But they may not have known who was actually in there. And once you get into the location, once you get into that apartment, things can go sideways very quickly, and even if it wasn't Abaaoud that they were looking for, it could be a situation where things have gotten really bad. We've gotten heavily armed people in here and we need reinforcements.
SESAY: I want to take a moment to remind our viewers that it is coming up to 20 minutes to 8:00 in the morning in Paris. These are live operations from Saint-Denis unfolding on your screen. Officials there, police there, your security, they have a suspected mastermind of the Paris attacks pinned down in the building.
We have with us Steve Moore, a former special agent with the FBI.
Steve, when we look at these pictures, we're seeing so many different types of security officials if you will.
MOORE: Sure.
SESAY: Help us understand the coordination of this, who is in the military, Atika referred to investigative police. We know counterterrorism is there. Everybody has --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: It's like an operating room. Everybody has their job. And it could be at this point that you've had officers, the SWAT officers in there for two hours now. You cannot imagine the emotional and physical exhaustion of holding back somebody who might be armed with an A.K.-47. Walls won't stop that. You could be seeing replacements. You could be seeing replacements. You could be seeing people being relieved. You could also be seeing GIGM, the --
SESAY: What's that?
MOORE: That's the National Gendarmerie Intervention Group, and these are high speed, low-drag anti-terrorist teams. I've seen some of their work on the Air Algeria attack there. They are the best. And they may be coming in. I'm not saying they are, but it could be that they are being deployed.
SESAY: You've made the point that you have taken part in dozens of these kinds of operations. Talk to me about the challenges, the specific, you know, issues front of mind for everyone on the ground right now.
MOORE: The main issue right now is do not let this person escape. The second thing on their mind is do not lose officers. But right now, the losing of the officers, believe it or not, is probably second. But if this man gets away, and if he's alive, dozens of lives could be lost. And right now, these -- this is why these guys get the big bucks. And I can tell you from what I know of these people, they have not going to let him out.
VAUSE: Steve, thank you. Stay with us.
SESAY: Thank you.
VAUSE: We want to recap for our audience there is breaking news in Saint-Denis, a northern suburb of France. They raided an area believed to contain the mastermind of the attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud. Our Atika is on the scene and she heard these explosions a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHUBERT: A number of police with masks on. These are the investigative police. They were looking around in the crowd here among the journalists moving down the street. They seem to be looking for something in particular, a number of male and female officers moving down there. We couldn't see any of them. They had their masks on, but very unusual that they were moving in the crowd here looking for something and has now moved down the street. You can see one of them here still operating, showing their photo to -- oh, and an explosion has just gone off. That was quite a large explosion in that direction. A second one now. Just hold on. No gunfire that we can tell so far. A third explosion. Fourth. That was much larger. Police asking them to move back. There are a number of military soldiers now being moved into the front, as well.
Again, John and Isha, this is very much an ongoing police operation at this point. We know a number of suspects have been cornered. We don't know the exact number or who they are. That's another explosion that has just gone off. And another. This seems to be a series of them. We don't know if these are controlled detonations or not. It's gone quiet for now.
But very unusual scenes here, to recap, we saw a number of those explosions. We saw a number of the police have now -- the military have been deployed on the streets, as well in addition to the heavily armed police that are out here. We saw a number of investigative police with masks on, balaclavas, to look for somebody and moving down the street, showing a photo of some sort on their phones to the other police stations here. Clearly looking for something. So, again, very fluid situation. It does appear that those explosions have gone quiet for now. But we will keep on top of the situation for you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[01:45:46] VAUSE: That was Atika just moments ago reporting from the scene.
Now this is the live image there in Saint-Denis where it is coming up to 7:45 on a Wednesday morning and this raid is ongoing. It's now into sort of a siege or a standoff, if you like. The AFP, the French press, reporting Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is believed to be the mastermind of Friday's terror attack in Paris, which left more than 120 people dead, is believed to be the target of this raid along with a number of others who have yet to be identified.
Fred Pleitgen is standing by live at this hour in Paris.
Fred, if this is, in fact Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who is the target of this raid, if they have him holed up there somewhere, that will be a successful get for the French authorities.
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly would be very successful, and certainly would be something that would almost come as somewhat of a surprise. Remember, the authorities and also U.S. Intelligence thought that he was somewhere either in Syria or in Iraq. So, certainly, it's going to be interesting to see how all of this unfolds. And that scene certainly is one that is very remarkable. And it comes, of course, as for the past several days, there has been a massive manhunt going on, not for Abaaoud but for Salah Abdeslam, who is also implicated in the attacks that happened in Paris on Friday.
But I have a guess with me here. He's been watching all of this unfold.
How significant would it be if they get Abaaoud in this raid?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very significant. But it's different if you mean like if he gets -- if we get him alive or dead. Usually, the techniques of this man is to go into death. We have seen that already in the past. We have seen that in the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks. To show what we do with terrorists, meaning we judge them, let's hope that they will bring him alive.
PLEITGEN: One of the interesting things that you were saying is that if they do get him in this raid, it won't just mean that they will kill a top terrorist, they could save lives in the future because he's been known to plot things in the past. Is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. The responsible two teams of the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks, you might get some more information about Daesh over there about the French speaking networks over this, about the Belgium cell of terrorists in Iraq. So it might be very valuable in terms of intel.
PLEITGEN: He was also apparently implicated in "Charlie Hebdo," in the attack on the train with the attacker there, in the shooting of a Jewish museum in 2014. Talk to us about how big a threat the French speakers are among Daesh and how that's perceived here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has to be confirmed the level of implication that he has with these different offers. He has been in contact with people and he's considered as it pertains to the operations. And, indeed, there is a French speaking network of jihadis going over there and they try with community because they don't always speak of rhetoric because they are separated from the local Iraqis and some Syrians. So it means that they communicate together. And, of course, it's valuable to create -- in Iraq and they might actually change and communicate by Twitter. So we definitely have to get a full range of strategy to fight against them. It means the radicalization, it means fighting on Twitter, on social networks, as well as military tactics and so solve this on the ground politically.
PLEITGEN: Francois Hollande said this country is at war. The pictures look and sound like war. What does the French public make of this? And is the French public ready for a war on terrorism and everything that that implies?
[01:49:54] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The notion is defined as a conflict, usually. So France is not in a situation of conflict, per se, but it's suffering from terrorism. So the notion can be argued, but it is not actually properly the case, meaning that we are bombing a terrorist group outside the country but we are suffering now inside. So it's a war but I think what Francois Hollande meant was that it is a metaphorically way to say war and that we have to develop a strategy. But we can't terrorism, only with military actions. It's not a regular conflict. So we definitely have to find new strategies to fight these kinds of groups.
PLEITGEN: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're welcome.
PLEITGEN: Of course, we'll continue to watch this ongoing situation that's happening there in Saint-Denis. We're following investigation. That is going on. We'll continue, of course, to keep you guys up to date on anything we should find out from here -- John and Isha?
VAUSE: OK, Fred Pleitgen there, live in Paris with some perspective about what the public actually think of what the French president Hollande said that this is in fact a war. And right now, it looks very much like a war zone on the streets of Saint-Denis there.
It's coming up to 10 minutes to 8:00 on a Wednesday morning. And right now, this entire area is on lockdown. You can see the barricades there in place. Of course, public transport has been closed. There's a report there will be no school today in this area. There have been helicopters in the sky. Police really have sealed off this area because they believe -- and this came to us from the AFP news agency -- that the mastermind of the Friday terror attack in Paris is now the target of this ongoing operation.
SESAY: And if you are just joining us, it is worth reminding you that it is coming up on 8:00 a.m. in Paris right now. This operation got under way at 4:30 a.m. So well over three hours ago.
We have with us -- and he's been here with us for the last couple of hours -- Steve Moore, former FBI special agent.
Just on that point, how long this has been going on, you've done dozens of these raids.
(CROSSTALK)
SESAY: What do you make of that? MOORE: I've never have been at a location more than three hours unless we knew there was a hostage. What I make of this is extreme caution. They are not going to lose officers. They are not going to risk officers. The detonations, concussions you heard might have been them moving from room to room. Right now, the smartest thing for them to do is to get a bomb robot and run it through the house and find out if it's engages. Because it's significantly possible that in the initial gunfire the people they were looking for were mortally wounded and have passed. They won't know that without -- you can't get that information without risking lives. It is expensive information.
VAUSE: Why so many ambulances on scene?
MOORE: I'd like to know that, too. Usually, the number of emergency vehicles are going to be commensurate with potential casualties.
VAUSE: Yeah, and there's a lot of ambulances.
SESAY: A lot.
VAUSE: Like six or seven.
MOORE: I don't know if this is an over abundance of caution of if they know something we don't.
SESAY: You made the point, and we want to underscore it, as you look at the pictures, you see people standing around --
(CROSSTALK)
SESAY: -- milling, for want of a better word.
(CROSSTALK)
SESAY: Explain that.
MOORE: In this situation, you'll have an entry team in the location, a close-in perimeter.
VAUSE: In the distance you see a group of police officers in blue. Can you explain who they are, what they're doing?
MOORE: They are closer to the inner perimeter and could be emergency assault teams, a stand-by team ready to go on a moment's notice. They could be briefing. As teams go in, they have to brief before they go. That is the yellow position, the last point before the location where you would have cover, concealment. They're not going to stand around in the line of fire.
SESAY: Steve, this operation started 4:30 a.m. local time. It's now coming up on 8:00 a.m., the sun is up.
MOORE: Yes. It changes things.
SESAY: It changes things? MOORE: Yes. It depends on how the apartment is situated, windows situation. It's always better for the assaulters to have a dark room. We had night-vision goggles, all sorts of advices giving us the advantage.
VAUSE: Daylight levels the playing field a little?
MOORE: A little, a little. I'd still bet on the French forces.
VAUSE: An incredible amount of manpower brought to this scene. In your experience, is there anything comparable?
MOORE: The North Hollywood shooting in Los Angeles had something like this, but that was two men who were firing automatic weapons and knocking down 20-some people. Closest I've seen.
VAUSE: That was '95?
MOORE: '95.
(CROSSTALK)
[01:55:13]VAUSE: Yeah, I remember.
MOORE: These scenes look like that.
VAUSE: Those guys were going around killing people. These people are hold up in a room.
MOORE: That's right. This is an extraordinary scene. With what's gone on in Paris, I don't think it should surprise us.
SESAY: You made the point, at this stage they want eyes on the inside of the building, the condition of the people.
MOORE: There's several ways to do that, most of which I would rather not say on the air.
SESAY: Of course.
VAUSE: Once again, because this is ongoing, we want to remind people what we know, what we aren't clear on at this point in time.
We know it began 4:30 a.m. local time, coming up to three and a half hours into this raid, a building in the northern suburb of Paris, not far from the Stade de France, a target in Friday night's attacks. AFP is reporting the man they're targeting was the mastermind of that attack in Paris, Abdelhamid Abaaoud. There's other believed pinned down in the apartment building as well.
We have Atika Shubert on the line from the scene.
Atika, bring us up to date. What else can you tell us?
SHUBERT: The operation is still ongoing. We've seen military soldiers deploy into position, forming a perimeter around the area. Riot police with weapons also put into place here. Looks more like controlling the situation around the area at this point. We haven't heard any more gunfire or explosions. Residents still being told to keep away. If returning from nightshift, to keep away from the area for now. Still ongoing though it seems quieter at this moment -- John?
SESAY: Atika, we see a remarkable number of vehicles, ambulances on the scene. Are we getting any word of casualties?
SHUBERT: No, not as of yet. BFM TV, our local affiliate, was reporting at least one officer was injured in the operation. We haven't independently confirmed that with police yet. We also haven't heard how many people were holed up in the area they were searching for. We know it's more than one suspect. Don't know if there's more than that. No identities yet. We have the report from AFP that maybe Abdelhamid Abaaoud, but police haven't confirmed that yet.
VAUSE: Atika, there were what seemed to be controlled explosions in the area. Have you heard any more explosions or is it a standoff situation?
ATIKA: It's gone quiet. We haven't heard any more explosions. Again, I'm not expert, but those explosions earlier sounded more regular and controlled so it could have been part of the operation. Maybe clearing rooms. We're waiting for police to give more details. A helicopter has returned. Looks like it's going over the scene. Other than that, it has been quiet. It is still ongoing. We waiting at the moment -- John?
VAUSE: How many residents would you say in this area? How many people are stuck inside their homes now?
SHUBERT: You know, dozens of people at their windows looking out, peering out from behind their curtains, you know, being told to move back. There's also a number of residents around here by where journalists are. Some of them have been coming home from night shift. They literally have their breakfast in hand and they want to kind of get back home, but police are saying, at the moment, no one is coming into the area. Residents must stay inside for their own safety. Public transportation to the area has been cut off. Still, again, an operation in progress.
VAUSE: OK. Atika Shubert, on the line there, thank you.
SESAY: You've been watching CNN's live coverage, the breaking coverage of this raid under way in Saint-Denis, to the north of Paris.
And we're going to continue rolling coverage of this situation. I'm Isha Sesay.
[02:00:00] I'm John Vause. Thank you for joining us.
We want to hand it over now live to Paris. And our chief international correspondent, Christian Amanpour, will bring us the latest -- Christiane?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: John, Isha, good morning.
