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Mass Shooting Investigation. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired December 04, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE DEPARTMENT: I was informed that there -- that that was the location where this was happening, and I was asking for officers to respond as quickly as possible, because we had every belief at that time that we had people still actively being shot inside of the building.

My goal was to assemble an entry team and enter into the building to engage the active shooter. This -- this mind-set and this type of training became indoctrinated in us after the Columbine incident, and that was the goal, that we wanted to get in there and we wanted to stop any further innocent people from being injured and possibly killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Lieutenant Madden, one of the heroes there in San Bernardino.

Thank you so much for being with me on this Friday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We're back with our breaking news here on CNN, live coverage of what has happened, this heinous act, this act of terrorism.

This is how the FBI is officially now investigating what happened in that facility in San Bernardino. They are now treating this deadly massacre in Southern California as terror, a belief that seems to be supported by new information just into CNN that ISIS has just claimed its -- quote -- "supporters" were responsible for the mass shooting, this as we are learning new and disturbing details about this depraved husband and wife who left their little baby, this 6-month-old behind, and carried out this massacre, killing 14 people at this holiday party, injuring some 21 others.

Investigators from the FBI finding this Facebook post by this wife, Tashfeen Malik, the wife of Syed Rizwan Farook, pledging support to the ISIS leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, mid-attack.

Joining me now, let's go live on the breaking news to first here our CNN chief security national correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

And, Jim, listening to the FBI a second ago, obviously, we know one of the headlines officially investigating it as terrorism, and, number two, the cell phones. They found the cell phones in a nearby trash can that had intentionally been smashed.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

Well, you heard the FBI there saying that they have good reason to investigate this as an act of terrorism. And now we know a number of those reasons. One, as CNN was first to report, that Tashfeen Malik as this attack was under way made a posting to Facebook in praise and allegiance to the ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

That's significant because we have seen that in previous attacks inspired by ISIS. And that's the main line of investigation now, that this was inspired by ISIS, as opposed to directed by at least -- at this point, they don't have evidence it was directed by ISIS central leadership.

But inspired by makes it a very deadly attack on U.S. soil, no question. Two, as the FBI confirmed and CNN was first to report yesterday, that the attackers had contact by telephone and social media with known terrorism subjects overseas and in the country.

That's key, because that's of course something that we have seen before as a path to radicalization, as well as something that's come in advance of other terror attacks, both here and Europe. And finally, as you mentioned, and again CNN first to report that earlier today, my colleague Evan Perez, that they found at the scene two smashed cell phones, as well as in the home of the shooters a computer with the hard disk removed.

And the FBI believes that was these attackers attempting to cover their digital trail. The thing is, we'd all like to think that we can cover our digital trail, but you leave other markers out there, which the FBI is pursuing right now to see exactly what they were up to and who they were in contact with before this attack.

BALDWIN: Yes. The FBI too good for that, able to extract data from the cell phones, albeit the smashed phones.

Jim Sciutto, thank you so much for that. We will talk about the broader implications, the ownership and ISIS, with Bobby Ghosh, in a moment.

But as for the investigation, it appears law enforcement finished really sort of combing through this home of these killers and CNN cameras just a little while ago got this remarkable and might I add bizarre look inside of their home, going room to room to room seeing pieces of electronics, baby toys, allowing dozens of cameras and reporters inside.

Police not objecting to this. This was the home where police had found this makeshift bomb lab in the garage, not where reporters were allowed in, not in the garage. This is the home. They found thousands of rounds of ammunition and then photos -- look at this, in the midst of all of this, a baby crib among the belongings already ransacked by investigators. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I was the first -- first person to walk in and saw how it was before everyone started touched it.

And you can see that police did go through and look at many things. I don't want to show you these I.D.s over here just because I don't want to show you the addresses that are on there, but I do believe that they belong to the mother of Farook, based on the ages that are there.

But you can see that there are some prayer books. There are also some pictures. When I first walked in, this group of prayer beads was sitting right here on the edge of the bed when I walked in as well. Several books, several prayer books that were all around the side of the bed here, some business cards, and plenty of the normal trappings you would expect to see in a bedroom.

[15:05:05]

I see receipts for stores, normal store purchases. I see lotions and creams and dresses and that sort of thing. But one of the things, there's so much media in here, but I want to show you, one of the things that you can see here is this. And this is what I was telling you about before is this right here.

If you look up here, you can see where they smashed up into the ceiling to take a look to see what was up there. It does appear, based on how much debris is on the ground, that there was an effort to get up there and make sure that they checked every crevice of this back bedroom.

And it does seem like it may have been the main bedroom that was here. But plenty of I.D.s. I have seen passports. I have seen driver's licenses, Social Security cards, plenty of things that are around here, as well as plenty of signs of faith, a lot of signs of faith here.

You see a lot of signs of these being people who believed in their faith and also referencing it. There are stickers. And so far it's all throughout the room, but a lot of paperwork and a lot of luggage up here as well too, but it just looks like it's been stashed over in the corner, but definitely signs that this has been a room that has been ransacked by not -- before the media got here, but by the police as well.

This is a situation where the police were done with this building and the owner was coming back in. And so this is the first time he walked back in, as far as we understand. And then we walked in after him, everyone here getting this first look at what this house looks like and where these shooters were living before this all transpired.

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BALDWIN: That was one of our correspondents, Stephanie Elam. She was on the upper floor of that home.

Victor Blackwell also got a look inside the home. He was on the first floor.

And he joins now me on phone. And Harry Houck is with us as well, CNN law enforcement analyst who has some thoughts on the fact that these members of the media were allowed in.

But, first, Victor, to you. The fact -- I have never seen anything like this, that passports and I.D.s and personal effects were still left after police had cleared the scene, mind-boggling to me.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I did not expect that this would happen today or at all that we would get into this home.

Actually, I was driving up and saw the crowd near the front door. I thought I was missing an interview, but Stephanie Elam was there in line and we found out that this owner, Doyle Miller, had been told last night by law enforcement that they were done with the home and that he could go in. He showed up and he tells us that he planned to take some pictures to kind of get an estimate of the damages, and then decided to allow media inside as well.

And as the video I'm sure you're seeing now shows, there were no short of -- 75 to 100 reporters and photographers inside. You saw on the second level -- on the first level, there were the baby's toys and it looked like whomever was in the home last left immediately and in a hurry. There was half-eaten food on a plate there on top of the washing machine.

And on a table in the living room, a small living room, there were four sheets from the FBI, an itemized list of the items that had been seized, a long list of a mix of things that you would expect to be in a home, but also the things one would not, including a lot of ammunition and rifle kits and lots of things that we have described over the last couple of days that police have said are part of this bomb-making material kit that they have described.

So it was, as you say, a bizarre scene. After many of the reporters left, some of the people in the neighborhood started going in. There was a dog in the house at some point, a woman who was just walking by and decided to go in because everyone else was going in. Did not expect this to happen.

But what we heard from the FBI briefly was that they have now handed this back over to the owner, Mr. Miller, and they are no longer in control of it. It was then his decision to let the media in.

BALDWIN: Yes. That's exactly right. That's exactly what FBI just said.

So, Harry, even though none of us could turn away from Victor and Stephanie's reporting and watching all of this play out inside this home, you were baffled.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I am still baffled. I have even called several of my detective buddies I talk with and district attorneys on this. They are baffled. We are all very upset here. This crime scene --

this is part of the crime scene because this is where they lived. The first thing I noticed when I looked at this is this apartment was not dusted for prints.

OK? How do I know that? Because I don't see fingerprint dust all over the place.

BALDWIN: Residue.

HOUCK: That's exactly right. That's a big problem because how are we going to know if they were connected to some other co-conspirators if they were in that apartment at any time if we don't dust that apartment for prints?

That was the big thing that really teed me off here. I can't believe the FBI can make a mistake like this. I really don't.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Again, FBI saying no mistake made. They looked through it and apparently it's really the garage -- it's really the garage where the bomb-making equipment, the bombs and everything else was -- I'm just telling you what the FBI said, Harry.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:10:03]

BALDWIN: I hear your irkedness.

Here's my question, though. Why were licenses, Social Security cards, personal addresses left there?

HOUCK: Listen, in a big case like this, you can keep that place locked up and sealed for months in the event you have got to go back there.

And Cedric said this earlier when I was on with him earlier. The fact is that while they are conducting this investigation, something comes up and they say to themselves, geez, we have got to go back to the apartment because there's something that might be in there that we didn't find before.

There was no problem in keeping this apartment locked up for the next six months if they had to, maybe a year during this investigation. There's no -- believe me, the feds will pay the rent there, no problem. All right? This was a big screw-up and I don't think anybody is going to attest to it.

And what it did now is, our chance of being able to find if anybody was in that apartment that was connected to them are gone.

BALDWIN: Harry, thank you. Wanted to make sure we got your perspective in there, although again FBI said they cleared it. They gave it back to the landlord. Let me bring it back, though, to this, to the news that terror, this

was terror and specifically ISIS was likely the inspiration of what happened Wednesday.

Bobby Ghosh is with me, CNN global affairs analyst and managing editor at Quartz.

So here now we're hearing, good to see you, sir -- here now we're hearing from ISIS or this affiliated group acknowledging the bloodshed in this center on Wednesday, acknowledging the lives lost and saying that these were supporters of ISIS vs., say, fighters in Paris. Your read on that.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, this comes from a group that's kind of the media arm of ISIS and they have been broadcasting ISIS propaganda.

BALDWIN: It's like a press release.

GHOSH: Kind of of, yes. That's one way to think of them.

Basically, they have been quite opportunistic. They sort of waited a couple days, which tells us something. If this was something that was planned by ISIS, they might have been able to respond immediately after the incident took place.

(CROSSTALK)

GHOSH: Now that there's news that one of the two terrorists, suspected terrorists, pledged allegiance to ISIS, now you have this media arm immediately jumping on that news.

And that's consistent with ISIS behavior. Al Qaeda, which is sort of terrorism sort of 1.0, if you like, they were very specific about what -- how you could claim to be part of al Qaeda. You had to go to Yemen, to Afghanistan, to one of those places to train in a camp there. You had to conduct an operation that was approved from headquarters or someone higher up the chain of command.

And then you got sent back to the country where you were going to do the attack and so on and so forth. And that's the only way you could claim it.

BALDWIN: This is totally different.

GHOSH: With ISIS, ISIS will do all of those things, but they are also quite happy to accept freelancers.

The message from al-Baghdadi has been very clear for a long time now. He said you don't have to come to Syria, you don't have to come to Iraq to participate in any of the training, join any of...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You may not be even need to be in direct contact with us.

GHOSH: Do mayhem wherever you want. As long as you're willing to give us the credit for it, we're happy to take the credit for it.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Wow. And that's precisely what they are doing in acknowledging these supporters of the Islamic State. Right? That's them owning what has happened, therefore, as they are hoping, inspiring others to do the same.

GHOSH: That's exactly right, and the signal to everybody else is, look, if you do something like this, we will posthumously give you essentially membership to ISIS, which for some of these people, that's what they want.

BALDWIN: And the thing that I keep coming back to is that because they apparently perhaps never were in direct contact, they were never on anyone's radar. There were never communications that could have been intercepted, albeit they could have been encrypted.

GHOSH: Yes.

Look, this is day three of the investigation. You feel with a situation like this there's always one shoe left to be dropped. There's some information around the corner that we can't see yet. Who knows what those telephones that they found in the trash will turn up. We can't rule out at this point that there was some contact.

BALDWIN: Sure.

GHOSH: But from the evidence that we have so far, it's not surprising. Unfortunately, this is now the new wave, if you like, of terror. People have been warning about these lone wolves for a long time.

(CROSSTALK)

GHOSH: And now this has come to fruition. This is now another the way -- layer of security, another layer of threat that security forces have to prepare themselves -- how do you prepare yourselves to sort of basically try and ward them off?

It's making the lives of law enforcement around the world, counterterrorism groups around the world infinitely more difficult.

BALDWIN: They want the fear. They want the war.

GHOSH: Yes, absolutely.

BALDWIN: Bobby Ghosh, thank you. Thank you.

GHOSH: Any time.

BALDWIN: Of course, amidst all of this, I want to honor the 14 lives who were lost on Wednesday.

So, coming up next, a couple who were very close friends with a number of the people killed in the shooting, they will join me live from San Bernardino with their stories. Let's focus on them, next.

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[15:19:20]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And I just want to dedicate the next bit of time really to talk about the victims, their lives, to remember those who were killed in San Bernardino.

Different priorities, different passions, but they all had this in common. They were so loved. Now their families are left in agony without them.

Robert Adams of the proud father of a toddler by the name of Savannah. He married his high school sweetheart. Adams was planning to take his wife and daughter on their very first family trip to Disneyland next week. He was 40 years of age.

Michael Wetzel was the proud father of six children. His wife, Renee, says he was -- quote -- "the most amazing person she had ever met." He was 37.

[15:20:03]

And Nicholas Thalasinos moved to California after meeting his wife, Jennifer, online 14 years ago. He was devoted to his Jewish faith. He leaves behind two adult sons and he was 52.

My next guests here were very close with all three of the men I just mentioned.

Let me bring in San Bernardino County employee Jenni Kosse and her husband, Raymond.

And just to you, heartfelt sorrow for both of you. My condolences to you and to your community and to your friends.

Thank you so much. We appreciate that.

JENNIFER KOSSE, FRIEND OF VICTIMS: Yes, thank you.

BALDWIN: Jenni, I know that you knew these three quite well, as we mentioned. But can you just take me back to Wednesday morning? You're there on campus in a different building from what I have been told and you like so many you, immediately, you reached for your phone to text them.

J. KOSSE: Yes.

I immediately sent a text to Robert, because I knew, of anybody, that he would respond back to me. And I never heard anything back. And then, as the stories came into our office, they locked down the office and then they had us evacuate all together.

They were just in my heart and I was just heartbroken and confused and I didn't know what to think or where to go.

BALDWIN: Was there a piece of you that thought surely he's safe, he's under a desk, as so many people were, according to all these different stories we're hearing? Were you in that moment comprehending what really could be?

J. KOSSE: I had a pretty good idea of what it would look like. I have been in that conference room many times with them and knew how it was going to be set up, where likely everyone was going to be sitting. And I wasn't surprised I didn't hear back from him.

BALDWIN: So, his wife texted you. I read that she had texted, is he really gone? How do you even begin to answer that question.

J. KOSSE: I had spoken with Nick's wife just previously to that. And she told me it was assumed that anyone who did not come back or was not on the buses was not coming back at all.

And she told me that Summer was waiting and waiting and she kept putting out texts. Has anyone seen Robert? Please tell me you have seen Robert. Someone sent her a picture of an overhead from one of the helicopters trying to say it was Robert. And I knew immediately it wasn't. She thought it was.

I just thought at that time when she asked me she had a right to know.

BALDWIN: What did you say?

J. KOSSE: And she needed to know for her own safe -- I said, no, sweetie, he's not coming home.

BALDWIN: Raymond, how are you doing?

R. KOSSE: I'm doing well.

It's tough dealing with this, with these losses of friends and people that I have known for 10, 15 years. It's just -- it's really tough.

BALDWIN: Jenni, when do you go back to work?

J. KOSSE: I'm not exactly sure.

The board of supervisors has closed the offices for yesterday and today. And some offices, I have been told, will not be open or not at full staff next week for grief counseling and such. And my director of land use services called me and he said, given my closeness with environmental health staff, that anything I need, as much time as I need to go to take off to go to services, anything I need, they are going to work with me on that and he said don't even worry about it. Just let us know and we know you will be -- that's where you will be.

BALDWIN: Priority number one is taking care of yourself and your head and your heart.

[15:25:00]

I do want to ask you about this. I was reading this piece in "The New York Times" about fear, because no one in a million years would have thought this could possibly happen where it did.

And, so, if I may, I would like to quote this article and ask you about it. It was written: "After all, a festive gathering of county health workers in San Bernardino would not seem likely to make the top million of a list of shooting targets. It was a not an iconic symbol of freedom or American muscle. It was not a target draped in ideological conflict. If you were not safe there, where were you safe? A common office party, that was everywhere, that was everybody."

Jenni, how will you in this community move forward?

J. KOSSE: It's going to be very difficult.

The folks that worked in our Rancho Cucamonga office, I worked out there with them for two years. The people that were out of the San Bernardino office, we rotated. Inspectors would work different areas every two to three years.

And I was the receptionist, so I knew everybody. And I don't know how you go back seeing those empty desks and knowing that person isn't going to be there anymore, and you're not going to see them walk across the parking lot and you're not going to see Robert with his videos of Savannah.

I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to -- I can keep going. I just don't know how I can do it in that atmosphere, having to take calls from people that you just want to say, don't you know what just happened?

BALDWIN: Raymond, final word from you, sir?

R. KOSSE: Just they are going to be missed.

Like everybody else, it's something we never thought would ever happen here. And it did. And it's -- life will go on.

J. KOSSE: Obviously, it wasn't a random target. It wasn't the Planned Parenthood, something that would be obvious. You just don't think -- you just don't think it's going to happen.

BALDWIN: You don't and that's the thing.

J. KOSSE: I knew Syed.

BALDWIN: You did?

J. KOSSE: I knew him as well. And there's -- yes. And there's no way I would have thought that he would ever do that.

BALDWIN: Did you know his wife at all?

J. KOSSE: No. But I knew 10 of the 14 people that were killed and all of the people that were wounded.

BALDWIN: I cannot imagine going back to work. I cannot imagine that happening in my own place of work, seeing the images of everyone at the holiday party and the children and the incredible work that you all do. My heart goes out to you.

And I just appreciate the time. I'm so sorry.

Jenni and Raymond Kosse, thank you. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)