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Bill Cosby Case; Natalie Cole Dies; Terror Fears. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 01, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

MEGAN ROBERTSON, WITNESS: Just finishing up buying a couple things and about to head actually to that area where the shooting happened when we heard the gunshots ring out.

We were in a store that was mostly a glass front. And we witnessed a lot of people run by the door of the store that we were in actually towards the shooting after it happened. We heard clearly like 10 or more shots and then more after that.

And just seeing the surveillance video that we have seen on TV -- and it's being replayed over and over here in Israeli media -- it's just really, really shocking that this happened on the sabbath with cafes being full, a normal shopping day, as people getting ready to go home to their families for dinner.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I know. Exactly, right?

And this is a time -- this is a very busy city. This is a time when so many people are out. You say, incredibly, that people leapt out of their cars, one man with a handgun running toward the scene. Did you get a sense how this gunman was able to get away, that no one was able to follow him?

ROBERTSON: You know, I don't know that because I did not witness the gunman. But exactly what you said did happen. I mean, in front of us, a car pulled up and a man who appeared to be a civilian -- who knows if he was former police officer, had military training -- ran towards the scene with a gun that he pulled basically out of the back of his shirt.

And, you know, I spoke to a couple witnesses afterwards who saw it, but it seems like everyone basically hid in place as this happened. So I wasn't able to talk to anyone who saw the gunman, except for a bartender I spoke to tonight. He was ordering some food quite close by, actually saw the gunman. But he ran in the opposite direction just to be safe.

And he recalls to me that this is something you expect in some certain areas of Israel where there are a lot of conflicts, where you might have violence on a regular basis, but he said you would never expect to see this in the middle of Tel Aviv, especially on the day after New Year's. He just said it was very, very shocking to him, as an Israeli. KEILAR: No, oh, it is very shocking. I was actually -- I was in Tel

Aviv this last year. And it's a place where you feel, you know, very safe. You can't say that about certainly all places in Israel.

It is an area where there is conflict, but this is a place where, you know, people are just enjoying themselves, going to bars, going to restaurants, going to pubs like this one. Anything more that that man you spoke with said about the gunman?

ROBERTSON: No, he didn't say anything else about the gunman.

And I wasn't able to get more details from him, because he seems to have left the scene very quickly, which I think people here were very smart people who felt like they could help or knew that they were going to be victims ran towards the scene, and people who wanted to stay safe either sheltered in place or went into stores or back into apartment buildings like the rest of us did.

But tensions here are a bit high. Just a few days ago, there was a stabbing attack at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem. That's been a big topic of conversation among Israelis I have spoken to here. And so I think that this is only going to add to the tension. The fact that this person, this assailant has not been captured yet and is still on the loose, especially with a large amount of police presence in Tel Aviv, to me is pretty shocking and I'm sure is quite frightening to other residents in the area in Tel Aviv as to where this man is.

KEILAR: I'm sure it is. Meg Robertson, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you telling us what you saw there.

And all of this, of course, comes as New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is urging people to be vigilant following the arrest here in the U.S. of a Rochester, New York, man who allegedly was planning to attack New Year's Eve revelers with a machete in the name of ISIS.

Authorities say he that Emanuel Lutchman was in contact with a member of ISIS overseas and planned his attack so that he could join the terror group himself. Overseas, the Taliban claiming responsibility for a different actual attack here, a suicide bombing at a French restaurant in Afghanistan's capital, Kabul.

It's an area very popular with foreigners there. A 12-year-old boy was killed in that attack. And then in the French city of Valence, a suspect is in custody after he tried to run over soldiers who were guarding a mosque there.

Let's bring in CNN global affairs analyst and Daily Beast contributor Kimberly Dozier.

It's really striking when we see all of these different attacks happening all over the place. And I want to start with these deadly shootings in Tel Aviv today. Do you see this in a way as part of a new wave of soft targets, where lone wolves are getting more emboldened in a way that just makes people generally feel unsafe going about their sort of daily routine? KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think each of

these attacks has something to do with local grievances combined with inspiration by the ISIS militant movement and methods that some of its followers have used that have proven very effective.

The attack in Tel Aviv is not your standard Palestinian militant attack. They have been for the past three months carrying out almost daily attacks by stabbing or with cars. But, somehow, this man got ahold of an automatic weapon, and according to Israeli news reports, he had a Koran in his bag.

[15:05:07]

He was upset possibly over the death of a relative at the hands of Israeli security forces. But it's not clear what motivated him. What it does look like, though, is that he copied the Paris attackers, dressing all in black, using an automatic weapon, and going to a place like the Dizengoff Center, where this happened, and just hitting multiple targets where people were less than prepared for this kind of automatic weapons fire.

KEILAR: So that's what you have they found in this bag that he left. We saw him leave this on the shopping carts in what looked like a market, that he had a Koran in that?

DOZIER: That is in multiple local Israeli news reports that I have not yet been able to verify.

But they also have reports of a relative of this alleged attacker, having identified him, in saying that he was upset over the loss of a relative at the hands of Israeli security forces. This is all part of the first reports, but it seems to indicate that this man attacked because of a local grievance, yet he used methods that we are beginning to see again and again because of ISIS.

KEILAR: Yes.

Let's talk about this Rochester case here, Emanuel Lutchman arrested for reportedly he was planning an attack on New Year's revelers which ended up affecting celebrations there in Rochester.

So, undercover informants were a big part of this investigation. Some of them were reportedly paid several thousand dollars by the government. Does that do anything in affecting the case against this man?

DOZIER: It does raise a question when you look at the individual himself and ask, what means did he have of carrying out attacks on behalf of is?

Possibly, yes, he was radicalized by them by outreach online, but then it looks like from the way the court papers describe it that the FBI stepped in and enabled this man through these informants, making weapons available to him and possibly conspiring to make this video confession before carrying something out. Would he have just stayed a sort of fan in the background without this

encouragement? That's really not clear, but civil rights activists in similar cases to this have said, you're enabling people who never would have taken up arms against another person if you didn't make it possible for them to do it.

KEILAR: Yes. All right. Kim Dozier, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

And we do have some sad news to pass along this New Year's Day. Legendary songstress and multi-Grammy winner Natalie Cole died last night in Los Angeles. She was just 65. Her family says she suffered from complications due to ongoing health issues.

Natalie Cole followed in the footsteps of her legendary father, singer Nat King Cole. She won nine Grammys throughout her career, including best new artist for her 1975 debut album. Her voice, in one word, unforgettable.

Joining me on the phone are two people who knew Natalie Cole well, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, and Terri Lyne Carrington, a Grammy-winning artist who recently produced a song for Natalie Cole.

Reverend Jackson, first to you, because you shared some really incredible pictures on your Twitter account of your brother and Natalie Cole. Tell us about that and just about your reaction to this news of someone who is really gone too soon.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: Well, I am so sad.

I knew she had been sick. I didn't realize it was to this extent. She and my brother collaborated on "This Will Be" and "Inseparable," for example. And Marvin, they met at our organization headquarters. And they married and they brought up a son.

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So it's just like losing a family member. She was always so talented, so gifted. And yet she was humble. Even though she had this great lineage of inheritance, she had her own talent and it was tremendous.

KEILAR: Terri, she is so humble. You see this come across in interviews that she did with Larry King.

I just spoke with someone who interviewed her a couple years ago after she had her kidney transplant. He said that's what really struck him was just how down to earth she was, considering what a big deal she was. Tell me about the last time that you saw her and what kind of spirit she was in.

TERRI LYNE CARRINGTON, MUSICIAN: Yes.

I met Natalie when I was, gosh, under 10 years old, I think. So I have known her for quite a while. And she was so gracious and humble and just a sweet person. Last time I saw her, let's see, we were working on my C.D. And she came in to just say some words on EPK when Chaka Khan was performing on the C.D. as well.

You know, she just always gave of herself. And she was a friend. And I'm really going to miss her.

KEILAR: Of course.

And so many people are, especially those close to her like you, and I know her family is just devastated by this. How do you think people should remember Natalie?

CARRINGTON: Well, I feel that she had a unique sound.

She crossed genres into jazz and R&B and pop and rock. And her last C.D. was a Brazilian record. So, I feel that she really proved that you could have some freedom in this industry.

And she had, as the reverend said, a unique sound, though she came from this great lineage. She still was able to find her own voice. And all of that is very inspiring to us coming behind her.

KEILAR: And, Reverend Jackson, she was also very open talking about some of her health struggles and her issues with addiction. She really wanted to make sure that, you know, she could help other people who may have the same struggles.

JACKSON: She used her (INAUDIBLE) her openness. Her transparency was a source of her power.

But, often, people who are battling with success, as she was kind of born with, yet she had her own voice and found her own way, and just such an available person for all causes of social good. I love her very much and I miss her already.

KEILAR: And I know all of her fans do as well.

Reverend Jackson, Terri Lyne Carrington, We're so sorry for the loss of both of you. But we appreciate you coming on and talking about Natalie Cole.

Just ahead, a judge is ordering that Bill Cosby's wife must testify in the defamation case against him -- why their private conversations are not privilege.

Plus, did prosecutors hide information from the defense in the case against Baltimore cops? There's new information that shows Freddie Gray may have already had a back injury.

And we're just getting word that levees have been breached in Missouri, this happening as floodwaters rise. And as that happens, a man shares the heartbreaking story of being with his wife on FaceTime as a tornado struck her.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just scream and scream, and her phone went blank.

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[15:16:58]

KEILAR: A new year and a new voice will finally be heard in the scandal engulfing Bill Cosby.

In five days, Cosby's wife of 52 years, Camille, will be deposed by the attorney of the seven accusers who are suing the comic legend for defamation. This is under a Massachusetts judge's order. Their lawsuit says Cosby called them liars for their sex assault claims against him, and Cosby has countersued, saying the seven women hurt his reputation, derailing his plans for a comedy show on NBC.

In the last hour, the women's attorney told me why he wants to depose Camille Cosby.

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JOSEPH CAMMARATA, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSERS: She has information that's relevant to the issues in this case, for example, his relationships that he's had with other women, his sexual proclivities, his use of quaaludes.

She is, as you correctly pointed out, his business manager. Clearly, as a business manager, she will have information as to what impact, if any, these women had on his business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Cosby's now out on a million dollars bail.

Just two days ago, he was charged with sexual assault in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. And the alleged victim in this case is not part of this other lawsuit, just to be clear about that. Today, Cosby tweeted this. He said, "Friends and fans, thank you."

With me now, criminal defense attorneys Trent Copeland and Darren Kavinoky. Darren, I should mention, also hosts "Deadly Sins" on Investigate Discovery.

And, Darren, clear this up to us -- for us, because a lot of people would think, how can a wife testify against her husband?

DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, she may not be able to testify at trial, but in the context of the deposition, she's certainly fair game for this deposition, because she may lead to the discovery of other relevant admissible evidence.

And so you have got to look at this in the context of where we are in the case. We're still very much in pretrial discovery, where the rules are very broad in favor of her testifying. Whether or not she can get on the stand at trial, that's another matter entirely. And that's where there's a lot more protection, one spouse and the other. KEILAR: OK. So, Trent, this is in the discovery phase. What kind of

things could Camille Cosby reveal in a deposition that -- basically, this would kind of give the prosecution more threads to pull, right? What might those threads be?

TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, remember, and, Brianna, this is not the prosecution, because this is a civil case. So this is going to be a civil lawyer.

KEILAR: Yes.

COPELAND: What that lawyer is really trying to find out, Brianna, is whether or not Mrs. Cosby understood that Bill Cosby used quaaludes sometimes to drug women potentially, whether or not he had certain sexual proclivities that may bear on the relevance of this case.

But, look, the truth of the matter is, Brianna, I don't really think there's much that she's going to provide. Don't expect Camille Cosby to say, oh, yes, I was aware that my husband was having rampant affairs with 50, 60 some-odd women. Don't expect Ms. Cosby to say, look, I was aware that my husband was taking quaaludes and giving them to women or that I was providing him with those kinds of drugs.

[15:20:01]

So, don't expect that. I really don't think that this sort of fishing expedition that the lawyer for these seven alleged accusers is indicating. I really don't think that this is really going to lead to much. I really don't.

But in the capacity of her job as Bill Cosby's business manager, it may be -- there may be some relevance in terms of what she can provide, because, remember, he's countersuing. He's saying that their allegations hurt his business. In her capacity as a business manager, she may be able to shed some light with regard to that.

KEILAR: OK. I want to listen now to this clip. The attorney for the women suing Cosby says the details in it about a drug called Spanish Fly are very important to his case against Cosby.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: We knew what it was.

BILL COSBY, DEFENDANT: Spanish Fly was the thing that all boys from age 11 on up to death -- we will still be searching for Spanish Fly.

KING: That's right.

COSBY: And what was the old -- the old story was, if you took a little drop -- it was on the head of a...

KING: Pin.

COSBY: ... pin. And you put it in a drink.

KING: That's right. Drop it in her Coca-Cola. It doesn't matter.

COSBY: It doesn't make any difference. And the girl would drink it and...

KING: And she's yours.

COSBY: Hello, America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Let's talk about this, Trent, in the case of...

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: I know, right? It's hard to watch. I have watched that so many times. It's hard to watch in the context of what's going on right now.

Let's talk about the criminal case, not the seven women, but the case involving Andrea Constand in Pennsylvania. Is this something that prosecutors you would expect would use? Would this be one of the more damning pieces of evidence?

COPELAND: Well, I don't know that it's going to be damning, but I think it's certainly harmful and it's damaging. That's for sure.

You know, look, Bill Cosby having this sort of, you know, part of his comedy routine over the years -- and, look, remember, this isn't the only time, in that Larry King interview, that he expressed interest in Spanish Fly. He had it also in some of his stand-up routines.

The problem is it demonstrates, Brianna -- I think your question is a good one, because it says, look, is this a guy who sort of routinely has this as a part of his kind of his M.O.? Is this part of what he does? He likes to give women things and he likes to drug them, he likes to put them in a state of unconsciousness, so he could take advantage of them? And he does that, and so openly he does it, that he would even make it part of his comedy routine, part of his stand-up routine?

Look, I think it's a problem. I think it's something that he's got to deal with.

KEILAR: Darren.

KAVINOKY: If I can just amplify something here. There's a huge distinction between Cosby being convicted in the court of public opinion, where I think there's fairly unanimous agreement that he's engaged in some really horrific behavior, but you have got to distinguish between that and what a prosecutor's able to prove in a court of law.

And the prosecutor's got the burden to prove that there is something specific that happened on a specific night. And you also have to remember, Brianna, that this is a case that was reviewed by a prosecutor a decade ago and rejected as having insufficient evidence. And so they better be able to come to the table and show things are now different, and it's not just that the sea of public opinion has turned against Cosby, but that they actually have evidence to meet their burden, because they're the only ones in the courtroom that have one.

They have got to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of doing something specific at a specific time, and not just being a horrific human being.

KEILAR: All right. Trent and Darren, you're going to stick around. We're going to see you back here in just a bit and we will talk more, I promise, gentlemen.

But next, a big shakeup at the very top of the Ben Carson campaign just a month before the Iowa caucuses. Hear what his new campaign chairman told me about the strategy moving forward.

Plus, smoke is still visible at the Dubai hotel that was the scene of a raging fire yesterday on New Year's Eve -- a harrowing survival story of a man who was about to repel from the 48th floor when firefighters rescued him. We will have that.

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[15:27:18]

KEILAR: Let's turn now to the race for 2016.

Ben Carson is kicking off the new year with a major campaign shakeup, five staffers abruptly resigning in the past two days. This includes his communications director and his campaign manager and his deputy campaign manager as well.

Just a couple hours ago, I spoke with retired Army Major General Robert Dees. he's now taking over as the campaign's chairman.

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ROBERT DEES, BEN CARSON CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: There's been maybe a false narrative that the campaign is in chaos or the campaign is losing momentum. It's just the opposite. We're gaining energy. And this change has helped us to gain that energy.

We have had a policy engine that was idling. We're going to take the governor off of that and allow people of America to really see what Ben Carson believes about certain things. We have had a communications strategy that was passive, instead of active.

We're going to change that immediately. We're in fact standing up an entire policy directorate and bringing in some new players that are expert in their fields, world-class experts. And we're excited about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Well, let's bring in now CNN investigations correspondent Chris Frates.

It's interesting to hear him say that, Chris, passive, instead of active, more energy. Can a change in staffing reenergize Ben Carson?

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the campaign sure hopes so.

But what we have seen the last couple days -- and that interview was a prime example -- is this campaign's kind of in damage control mode. They're trying to convince everybody that this is routine.

KEILAR: Yes.

FRATES: One of Carson's advisers said yesterday, oh, Reagan changed his staff up right before the New Hampshire primaries. We're certainly not in a tailspin here.

But, as you heard, you're bringing in a foreign policy expert because Ben Carson had some trouble with foreign policy. You know, one of his biggest gaffes,. of course, was pronouncing Hamas like hummus. That was pretty embarrassing for the campaign. And Carson himself saying, we did a deep dive and we found that there were some deficiencies.

Well, that was pretty obvious. I think the trouble for Carson is going to be convincing voters, now that they have seen the deficiency, that he can in fact overcome that. That's different than selling a vision forward. He needs to now convince them that he can do the job. That's going to be a tougher sell for the Carson people, I think, Brianna.

KEILAR: It was interesting, talking to Dees. Basically, it's exactly what you said, that this is -- trying to say that this is routine. And I asked him, OK, I mean, campaign manager, coms director, deputy campaign manager gone, and people look at that and they say, this is chaos, and you say that's a misread? And he said yes.

What do you think about that?

FRATES: I mean, I think that's exactly what they're trying to say. And you heard him say, well, we're going to pump up policy, we're going to bring in very smart new voices.

And it was interesting. I was talking to Armstrong Williams yesterday, and he is one of -- he's Carson's business manager, and he's an outside adviser. He has no official role inside the campaign, but he's a really influential adviser.

And I said, you know, are you bringing Dees in because he was a foreign policy adviser to the campaign? Is that helpful to you?