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Group of protesters broke into an unoccupied building at an Oregon federal wildlife refuge Saturday; President Barack Obama is set to use executive action on gun background checks; Firestorm of protests against Saudi Arabia; Seven million people in 15 states are under flood warnings; 5-6p ET
Aired January 03, 2016 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:00:29] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington in today. Poppy Harlow is away.
President Obama kicking off his final year in office with a monumental task, tackling gun control and the epidemic of gun violence. The issue has stymied his presidency for years. So far Obama has had zero success, even after his emotional pleas with the public and Congress to do something to curb gun violence.
Now Obama go at it alone and take executive action to tighten up background checks. CNN is hosting an exclusive town hall with President Obama this Thursday. We would expect the president to make his biggest pitch yet on gun control to viewers around the country and around the world.
I want to bring in Chris Frates in Washington.
Chris, this latest executive action plan, why does the president think this one will have teeth where previous attempts by him have not?
CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, I think what he is going to do is aggressively push for tighter gun controls. And we are hearing that sources are telling us the president is going to be looking at expanding background checks as a key to these presidential actions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A few months ago I directed my team at the White House to look into any new actions I can take to help reduce gun violence. And on Monday, I will meet with our attorney general, Loretta Lynch, to discuss our options. Because I get too many letters from parents and teachers and kids to sit around and do nothing.
FRATES (voice-over): Sources say President Obama is expected to soon announce new executive action expanding background checks on gun sales aimed at closing the so-called gun show loophole which allows some gun sellers to avoid conducting background checks. Gun control advocates have also pushed the White House to tighten regulations on the reporting of lost and stolen guns and want the president to prevent more alleged domestic abusers and passengers on the no fly list from buying guns.
But before the president has even announced the details of his actions, Republicans running to replace him were seemingly competing on who would undo them faster.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So he is going to sign another executive order having to do with the second amendment, having to do with guns. I will veto that -- I will un-sign that so fast. So fast.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All these executive orders he is going to come out with tomorrow that are going to undermine our second amendment rights on my first day in office, they are gone.
FRATES: And Jeb Bush argued there was no need to expand background checks because --.
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The so-called gun show loophole which is I think what he is talking about doesn't exist. People that want to sell guns random, you know, occasionally sell guns ought to have the right to do so without being impaired by the federal government.
FRATES: Democrats have applauded Obama's efforts. On Sunday, Bernie Sanders, whose Democratic rivals have called him weak on gun control, endorsed increased background checks.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think most gun owners in this country understand that people who should not own guns should not be able to buy them. And we do need to expand the instant background check. I don't think that's an onerous burden on anybody.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRATES: Now, measuring Americans' attitudes seem to depend how you ask the question. In a recent CNN poll, majority said they don't support stricter gun control laws or the president's handling of guns. But in a Quinnipiac survey, overwhelming majority, 89 percent, say they support requiring background checks for all gun buyers - Jim.
SCIUTTO: A lot in the question. Chris Frates, thanks very much.
Nearly every weekend there is a gun show in the country where Americans can see and buy all sorts of handguns, shotguns, rifles and ammunition. CNN went to a gun show in Virginia, not far from here, in Washington, and asked people there to weigh in on the president's plan to take executive action on gun control.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNETTE ELLIOTT, OWNER/PROMOTER, NATION'S GUN SHOW: We've known all along he wants to do whatever they can to stop law-abiding citizens from getting guns from American citizens from getting guns. So I think he will do whatever he can do to slow down and stop gun ownership.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe a lot of the gun control efforts are well intended. I believe there's a lot of people out there truly concerned with what they perceive, perception being a key word, what they perceive to be overabundance of firearms in the American community and I understand that concern. And I believe a lot of the concern would be alive if these people who have the same concerns would - and I'm not being funny. I'm not being facetious in any way -- if they would attend a gun show, talk to people, sit down and actually have an active discussion, what their concerns are.
[17:05:18] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I think there should be a certain level of control, I think obviously makes sense, like, honestly, I think people should -- like a driver's license, they should have a gun license, you know. There's no reason why that shouldn't be an option or, you know, on the table.
ELLIOTT: I think that America was established with the declaration of independence and constitution, we're a unique country and we're based on freedoms, and I think -- I think every animal's and human right to be able to protect yourself and guns allow you to protect yourself, your family and your property. I mean, I'm sure ISIS is sitting there looking at them saying they want to do gun control against law-abiding citizens and happy, elated over that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe my life and those I love is important. And while I understand that the chance of anyone holding a gun in my face or wanting to take my life is along the lines of lightning striking I understand in a very rare event, I carry a gun because I want to protect those live and it's the same reason I have a first aid kit in high truck which I've used in accidents along the highway three, four times the same reason, in reality, I keep a fire extinguisher in my home.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Interesting. You hear a variety of positions even at a gun show. Obama's gun control plans could affect the policemen and policewomen who work so hard to keep America safe.
I want to bring law enforcement analyst Harry Houck. He is a retired detective with the New York police department.
Harry, good to have you on this Sunday. I know you have said that this plan will not reduce gun crime or active shooter incidents. Why do you believe that?
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Because bad guys can get guns on the street. It is as simple as that. Anybody who wants a gun can purchase one on the street. And to think that this gun law itself -- let me tell you something, Jim, also -- I am for background checks for anybody who purchases a gun. Let me make that straight. OK. I -- as a law enforcement officer, I want to see that happen, all right. But what gun owners don't like they don't trust the government because they have been misled so many times by this president for so many different issues in the last couple of years. So they don't believe that the president just wants to do this one thing. They think this is the first step towards taking weapons away from lawful, law-abiding citizens.
SCIUTTO: Well, Harry, listen. I understand that point of view. We've heard it many times. We heard at the gun show that played before you came on. But I want to show you this graphic, talks about recent mass shootings. San Bernardino, Charleston, South Carolina, Newtown, Connecticut, Aurora, Colorado, Tucson, Arizona. In all those cases, the guns were purchased legally not the back of a burnt out van, you know, down the end of a dead end street. So what background checks or is there a law if you could write the law that would help, for instance, you want to keep police officers safe, right?
HOUCK: Correct.
SCIUTTO: What restriction would you oppose, if any, I'm not saying anybody could write a law to keep the guns out of everybody's hands, but if you had the power to right legislation, what would you right? How would you write it?
HOUCK: Basically, number one you have to be 21 to be able to purchase a weapon. Second of all, I am for background checks 100 percent. Also, if there's some way to find out about somebody's mental capability in that background check that would also be good. All right. So once we find out somebody's a lawful, you know, it's a law- abiding citizen, let them purchase a weapon. And at the same time, I would make it easier for people to purchase weapons.
I want you to look at - you know, the biggest issue here is that inner city violence. That's the big of the issue where we have killings going on. You have got an area like Chicago, that has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and you have New York City that has the strictest gun laws in the country. What's the difference between the two? The fact is, we always had strict gun laws back in the early '80s when I was a cop, when New York City was a combat zone. What stopped the violence in New York City effective law enforcement and prosecutions of those cases, not gun laws. All right.
Here we are in Chicago, looking at gun laws we have in Chicago. It's really hard to purchase a gun there. Look at all of the violence there. So that should be enough evidence to indicate to anyone that gun laws in itself are not the answer to the gun problem. We have what --
SCIUTTO: I'm from New York City. I have great respect for the New York police department. I grew up in New York in the '70s and '80s when as you know the murder rate, the crime rate was, you know, many multiples where it is today.
Are you saying you want more folks in New York walking around with guns to protect themselves? You're saying that would -- it's one argument to say that what really solved the problem was not gun laws but effective policing and we have known. We've seen that statistically. But you say it on the flip side as well, it would be safer if the gun laws were less restrictive in those major urban areas.
[17:10:24] HOUCK: Well, there are -- there are statistics that show that areas where people are allowed to carry weapons and it is very easy to get a person to do that. The crime rate is down significantly. Now what I think in Chicago or New York City that would work, I don't know. All right. Because the crime rates are so high in these two different cities.
You know, but the fact is that, I think it should be easier for someone to purchase a weapon. If the president wants to put restrictions on people purchasing weapons, well, let's take some restrictions off and make it easier, because it's a bureaucratic nightmare to get a gun in New York City. Even I'm a retired New York City detective. It would take me eight months to get a permit to purchase a gun. That's crazy.
SCIUTTO: Harry Houck, the policeman's perspective, thanks very much. Good to have your view on this.
HOUCK: Thanks a lot, Jim.
SCIUTTO: I want to make a special programming note, this Thursday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, President Obama will join Anderson Cooper for an exclusive, live town hall event about guns in America. We will discuss the executive action on guns that he is expected to announce this week and take questions from a live studio audience as well. Town hall on "Guns in America with President Obama" moderated by Anderson Cooper. That is this Thursday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern only here on CNN.
And we have some breaking news out of the Middle East now. Saudi Arabia says it is severing all ties with Iran and it is giving Iranian diplomats 48 hours to leave the kingdom entirely. This follows a firestorm of protests against Saudi Arabia in recent days. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
SCIUTTO: Angry demonstrators storming the Saudi embassy in Tehran. Protesters are furious that the Saudis executed 47 people accused of terrorism particularly the prominent Shiite cleric Nimr al-Nimr. Reminder, Iranian is a Shiite Muslim nation. Saudi Arabia, a Sunni Muslim nation. Iranian leader saying the execution will cause quote "divine revenge for Saudi politicians."
Ahead this hour, standing their ground, armed anti-government protesters taking control of a wildlife refuge in Oregon. Why they are there and what they want.
Plus, yet another close call with a drone at an American airport. Where it happened, why new government regulations could do little to prevent this from happening in the future.
And later breaking news out of the Middle East. Saudi Arabia suddenly severing all ties with another country after an attack on its embassy. A live report coming up. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [17:15:36] SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
Armed anti-government protesters continue to occupy a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon. The group is led by a man named Ammon Bundy. The group claiming to take a stand against federal government's control and use of the land. Ammon is the son of Cliven Bundy you may remember, a Nevada rancher well known for his anti-government fuse. It all started because two Oregon ranchers Dwight and Steven Hammond are set to go to prison for arson. The Hammond say they lit a controlled blaze to try protect their property from wildfires. But authorities say the Hammonds did it to cover up poaching on their land.
CNN's Polo Sandoval joins me now.
With the strange twist on all this, Polo, that the Hammonds want nothing to do with all of this. What's behind that division?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, their court case, Jim, at this point, is really what's been reigniting this conversation where so many of these, as they call themselves activists, constitutionalists and some of them referring to themselves as patriots, are trying to spread the word of what they say is the government control of several public lands. Ultimately, though, use authorities and some local law enforcement there on the ground, Jim, speaking out publicly not too long ago here saying, since this is all playing out in a fairly remote part of Oregon they don't pose any immediate threat to the citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANDOVAL (voice-over): They are armed and staying put, a group of protesters broke into an unoccupied building at an Oregon federal wildlife refuge Saturday. They claimed to be taking a stand against the federal government's control and use of the land. The armed occupation broke off from a peaceful rally earlier in the day to support Dwight and Steven Hammond, they are father and son branching to what expected to report to prison Monday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It didn't my decision, obviously. It's a sentence.
SANDOVAL: Hammond and his son were convicted of arson, setting at least 130 acres of federal land on fire. The Hammonds maintain it was a controlled blaze that accidentally got out of hand. Prosecutors, however, argue the flames were meant to cover up poaching.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's sort of frightening when there's people making threats and people touting guns.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are afraid.
SANDOVAL: Among the armed protesters the son of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy. He was at the center of a similar standoff with the federal government last year over grazing fees.
AMMON BUNDY, PROTEST ORGANIZER: This is not a time to stand down. It is a time to stand up.
SANDOVAL: The younger Bundy called on militia groups to descend on Harney County and demand the government restore quote "the people's constitutional right," part of a vague and vocal anti-government message.
BUNDY: The people have been abused long enough, really. Their lands and their resources have been taken from them to the point where it's putting them literally in poverty.
SANDOVAL: The Hammonds, however, are distancing themselves from this latest face-off. Their attorney communicating in a short but clear statement to the county sheriff's office says, neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within this group or organization speak for the Hammond family. Those armed protesters, however, say their demonstration is peaceful but if provoked they will defend themselves.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANDOVAL: And despite the Hammond family's at least the family disavowing any potential involvement with new Bundy effort, I can tell you that authorities are watching this very closely as some of the individuals, Jim, say that they are willing to stay there for weeks, months, even in their own words years, until their message is heard. Still adding up for a very tense situation there.
SCIUTTO: Polo, I mean, an illegal one. I mean, this is a federal building on federal land. Is any government agency responding yet to this?
SANDOVAL: Yes. We do know, especially after we heard from my colleague, Evan Perez and some reporting from his sources, the FBI is watching this closely. As you mentioned, it is a federal building. So the FBI would be responsible for investigating. Obviously with assistance from local county officials there as well, law enforcement. So they are watching this very closely. But again, back to what we mentioned a little while ago, this is a very rural part of Oregon. Authorities feel that they have time on their side. They don't feel there are not a lot of people that live in the area, but nonetheless, a statement put out in last hour or so by the local sheriff there, Jim, saying that they are asking that anybody who may encounter some of these armed civilians to simply call it in, so investigators can potentially follow up on it.
But again, this is really not the end of the story. And this new at least the issue of the case of this father and son who are expected to turn themselves in, it's really simply reigniting the conversation. As you mentioned, we saw this during the Bundy case last year as well.
[17:20:12] SCIUTTO: No question. Armed takeover of a federal building.
Polo Sandoval, thanks very much for joining us.
And joining me now to discuss the situation, in Oregon, we have J.M. Berger. He is a fellow with George Washington University's program on extremism. He is also coauthor of "ISIS, the state of terror."
You have been tweeting about what's happening at this and I want to quote one of those tweets you wrote. With the exception of the Bundys, the other people so far identified at Malheur, this is in the park involved are not well-liked in many patriot movement circles.
First of all, help us understand patriot movement circles, as you call them. What are they fighting for?
J.M. BERGER, FELLOW, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY ON EXTREMISM: Well, the patriot movement is a kind of nebulous collection of anti- government extremists. They believe the government is varying into tyranny, they are very concerned about their guns being confiscated. The movement's been around for decades now. Timothy McVeigh was loosely associated with the movement. But it is not all one thing in the sense that we sometimes think of extremist groups. It very loose. There are a couple of clusters, factions that are more prominent than others. And those have all pretty much said these guys are not -- what they're doing is not smart. They shouldn't be doing it. They don't condone it.
SCIUTTO: OK, not smart but it is illegal. I mean, if these guys were under, for instance, the Islamic extremism banner, and armed takeover of a federal building, I imagine there might be quite a different level of alarm here. What is the difference between this and terrorism? Or is it a form of domestic terrorism?
BERGER: Well, you know, I sat down to start writing an opinion piece on this and it quickly spiraled into hundreds and hundreds of words. It's complicated. You know, I think there's -- I think that a lot of people, particularly American Muslims, I think a lot of minorities in America look at this and say, you know, if my group was doing this, if a group of black people took over a federal building, if a group of Muslims took over a federal building, you know, there would be a very different response. And I think there are some validity to that.
At the same time, you know with the patriot movement in general, what we have seen is that these situations can be de-escalated. This is an extremely remote location. There is no life in danger, you know. If ISIS sees a building anywhere in the United States you can be sure the bloodshed is going to soon follow and that's not necessarily the case here. So, you know, the almost total absence of federal law enforcement on the scene to me is a little bit baffling. But you know, I think there's definitely some nuance in the discussion.
SCIUTTO: Well, if it's not dangerous, why do they bring their guns to take over the federal building, then?
BERGER: Well, you know, that's the thing. You know, if these guys have just staged a sit-in with no guns taking over the building they would probably have a lot of support, actually, both within their own movement and even more broadly. I think the Hammond case, you know, is certainly open to some interpretation. There are people who are very unhappy about it. But you know, this -- it's this armed confrontation. And that really goes to sort of the ideological concept of -- that goes behind the patriot movement, is that they are not a group that is necessarily going to unleash a campaign of terrorism. They are waiting to be provoked.
And what we have seen over the last year, very specifically with some of the people involved in this action, is that they have been courting that fight. They put themselves into positions, hoping to get the provocation that they -- that would justify to them wider violence. And so far, you know, what we saw at the Bundy ranch that situation was de-escalated by the federal government.
You know, and then on the one hand, you know, you look at that and you have to ask whether that de-escalation emboldened them to try to take it a step further as they have here. On the other hand they did resolve that situation without bloodshed. So you know, it's very complex. And I don't envy the people making these decisions.
SCIUTTO: No question. I just want to ask your assessment of the level of danger here, because we have seen certain inherence to this kind of group or ideology, this sort of us against the government point of view break out into extremely deadly violence. Timothy McVeigh the most iconic example 20 years ago. The freemen, that's also in the 1990s.
How dangerous is particular group or this kind of thinking? For instance, I talked to the FBI. They make the point frequently, in their countering violent extremism here on the homeland that it is if not just as likely to be Islamic terrorism but also domestic terrorism. In fact, there are many -- not many more but there are, depending how you look at statistics, more cases of that kind of thing than there are Islamic-inspired terrorism. Not to minimize the threat but just saying there is this other threat there that I think maybe many Americans aren't aware of.
[17:25:11] BERGER: Well, I think that's very true. And the domestic threat is serious. But it's not necessarily emanating from this corner, at least up until now. So what we have seen is that members of the movement called sovereign citizen movement, who believe in alternative series of laws that govern, they think govern the United States, have been engaged in a lot of violence, violence against police, ambushes of police.
We have also seen that there's what we sort of lack is good accounting being hate crimes to see what kind of hate crimes are motivated by ideological terror up such as neo-Nazi group or supremacist group but the groups are enjoying resurgence and the Dylan Roof case in South Carolina was ideologically inspired.
So, with the patriot groups, again, it's, you know, what they -- they need in their ideology is a confrontation. They need a Waco to get them to act. They are not going to act unless they see the government step over that line. And what's worrying is, when you have these groups, and this groups is kind of a splinter off of the main patriot group who are trying to create new Waco situation with the hopes that it will then spark further violence.
SCIUTTO: Interesting. That's their intention, to spark a confrontation.
J.M. Berger, really appreciate you helping us walk through this.
Coming up just ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn't very reassuring.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: People on board a JetBlue flight spot a drone flying nearby. What happened? We are going to have details after this.
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[17:29:28] SCIUTTO: The FAA is now investigating a pair of drone sightings over Boston's Logan airport. The second incident happened Friday as the crew of a JetBlue flight spotted a drone while on final approach.
(INAUDIBLE) of affiliate WHDH has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): A scare in the air on New Year's Day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thinking about something crashing into the plane isn't very reassuring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: A JetBlue flight crew says just after lunch time, they were coming in for a landing. They reported seeing a drone about one mile northeast of the airport and some 800 feet in the air. Just one week ago on Christmas day, nearly the same thing happened. An Air Canada express cruise said they saw a drone just after 1:00 p.m., roughly two miles from the runway. They say it, too, was about 800 feet up. Those flights landed safely.
[17:30:17] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The technology's moving faster than laws now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Laws are in place but not everyone's following them. Reminding everyone it's against federal regulation to fly a drone within five miles of an airport and over 400 feet high. These red circles are no-fly zones around Boston including Logan (INAUDIBLE) and Norway airport. And as of late December, drone users must register gadgets and get a registration number before ever taking off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put up our guard more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The FAA estimated 1 million in drone sales would be made during Christmas leaving some to worry close encounters will only get worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think fortunately it's only going to get worse as more and more people get these things and it's not just people who, you know, handle them responsibly.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Thanks to (INAUDIBLE) of affiliate WHDH for that story.
Residents in Missouri are beginning to assess the damage as record high floodwaters finally recede in the St. Louis area. But people who live downstream along the Mississippi are bracing for more, bracing for the worst.
CNN meteorologist Tom Sater is here.
Tom, you're a low boy. You know the area well. And so, what - which communities south of St. Louis now, as those floodwaters, in effect, move down the river, are going to see more flooding and when exactly?
TOM SATER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, it's really going to be now from Cape Girardeau southward, Jim. Cape Girardeau and the boot heel of Missouri had seen its crest. But the wall is 50 feet high. And the pressure of the water, for a few more days, this could cause some issues. I know there's thousands that are still quite worried.
But all tributaries continue to feed into the Mississippi. And even though the number of river gauges has dropped now in half, it was over 438, now down to 238, really it's going to be from Cape Girardeau southward. And the big story is going to be what happens when the Arkansas River starts to feed the Mississippi.
Let's break it down a little bit. South of St. Louis and Cape Girardeau, already reaching their crest, 30 homes and businesses have been destroyed. Just south of there, we have had a levee break but Thieves, Illinois, records go back to 1844 and they broke in the all- time record at 47.7. If the numbers in Cairo, Illinois get to near 60, the army corps of engineers is going to have to blast out waterways to relieve pressure. So again, we are watching several areas here.
But then down to the south, as we go down from there, toward what we are seeing now, rivers from the Arkansas move in. This could be quite interesting. The defenses are fortified in the Memphis region. So we are just looking at moderate flooding. But from Pine Bluff, where it's major, in toward this region, then we are going to be watching the river forecast offices really trying to handle the crest. Because we are seeing a crest right now in southern Illinois that may hang around for about four to five days. And that is going to be around 55, 56 feet.
So, as you come down to Greenville, you get to Vicksburg, we are just a few feet off the all-time records but it is going to be a tough time handling this. And I know they are watching it closely from Baton Rouge down in New Orleans. Well, we are going to be talking about this, Jim, for about the next two weeks until it frees the area and gets past, of course, the Mississippi delta.
SCIUTTO: No question, interesting to see how it's testing those historical records. Tom Sater, in the weather center, thanks very much.
And coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, breaking news on the delicate diplomatic front. Saudi Arabia severing ties with Iran in the aftermath of a wave of executions. We will have a live report right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:36:51] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
SCIUTTO: And breaking news right now out of Saudi Arabia. The kingdom is severing all ties with Iran after this weekend's attack on its embassy in Tehran. Saudi foreign minister made the announcement a short time ago on Saudi state TV. It all stems from the execution of 47 prisoners, principally a prominent Shia Muslim cleric, Iran, a Shia nation, Saudi Arabia, a Sunni nation, protesters around the world have shown their frustration in the wake of this execution, including London, where CNN senior international correspondent Fredrik Pleitgen is right now.
So Fredrick, the Saudis call this Shia cleric, in effect a terrorist, that's why he was executed. The Iranian regime and Shia in the region, they see him merely as an opponent of the Saudi regime. Where's the truth in this?
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, if you look at what, for instance, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, he heavily criticizes the execution of Nimr Al-Nimr. He said that it was someone who, yes, criticizes the Saudi government, yes, criticize the Saudi royal family, but at no time actually called for violence. The Saudis, of course, see this very differently.
And if you look at what happened tonight what's transpired over past 24 hours, if you will, you see what sort of a lightning rod, this man was. And also, the fact that he was executed was not just between Saudi Arabia and Iran but principally throughout the entire region. If you look at Shia reaction there.
Now, the reason why the Saudis decided to cut ties was, of course, because of that siege of the Saudi embassy in Tehran that happened on Saturday night where protesters there broke into the Saudi embassy and set it on fire. The Saudis, today, specifically in that press conference where they announced a severing of the ties, so that they found this unacceptable, and they felt that Iran was undermining Saudi Arabia's security, which is a bit surprising because the Iranians, for all of their criticism of the execution of that Shia cleric, the president, Hassan Rouhani, did come out and also criticized the storming of the embassy. And the Iranians have already announced that actually they arrested 40 people in relation to that incident.
SCIUTTO: So what has been Iran's official reaction to the severing of ties? Can we expect them to do the same, server ties then with Saudi Arabia? PLEITGEN: It's a very interesting question. I can tell you I have
been monitoring Iranian media, up until we went live just now. There has been very little reaction so far. The state-run news agency which at this point in the night's Iran time, it is really the only source of information you get, put out a wire, confirming that the ties had been severed, very critical language of the Saudis there. However, there really haven't been anything in the way of official reactions to the severing of ties.
However, the severing of ties or at least the downgrading of relations is something that also is very much debated that in Iran over the past 24 hours, especially among the hard-liners. Of course, you have that strong reaction by Iran's supreme leader (INAUDIBLE) who called for divine revenge against the Saudi royal family. But you also had, for instance, the head of the Iranian foreign affairs and defense committee, a very powerful man, who sort of like the Iranian John McCain, if you will also calling for a downgrade of relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
So clearly, these tensions were getting worse over the past 24 hours. But still, that move by the Saudis to several ties and essentially kick all Iranian diplomats out in the next 48 hours is certainly something that comes very surprising and does not bode well for the relations in the Middle East going into 2016.
SCIUTTO: Think about storming of an embassy, severing of ties, parallels and with that relationship between the U.S. and Iran.
Frederik Pleitgen, thanks very much. Good to have you this.
Out of this coming break, more on the diplomatic fallout of these executions that severing of ties. I'm going to talk to a former adviser to six U.S. secretaries of state about what happens next and what role the U.S. could play.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:43:56] SCIUTTO: A promise of divine revenge from Iran. And just hours ago, the Saudi former minister formally severing ties with Iran after the Saudi embassy was attacked in the Iranian capital of Tehran. It is all part of the fallout after Saudi Arabia executed some 47 prisoner, most prominent among them a well-known Shia cleric, remainder Iran Shia Muslim country. Saudi Arabia, a Sunni Muslim country.
So what does this undermine the goals for peace in the region and what role does the U.S. have to play? I'm joined by Aaron David Miller. He is a former adviser to six U.S. secretaries of state.
So, Aaron David Miller, I have got to ask this question at start. No one knows the region better than you. Saudi Arabia executes by beheading a prominent Shia cleric who criticizes the Saudi government. I imagine they would have expected outrage certainly on the Shia Street as it were and from the Iranian government. In your view, was this an intentional provocation? AARON DAVID MILLER, DISTINGUISHED SCHOLAR, WOODROW WILSON
INTERNATIONAL CENTER: There's no question about it. First of all, Jim, Happy New Year. Although, I'm not sure it's going to be a happy new year for the Middle East.
I mean, look, the reality is, what you have seen is this Saudi/Iranian cold war for years now. I mean, major difficulties and divisions over Iraq, Syria, you've got the Saudis convinced that the Iranians are fueling an insurgency among the Houthis in Yemen, you got problems over the claims of mismanagement over the hajj in which 450 Iranians were killed in that mishap which took the lives of 2400 pilgrims.
So this cold war has now become hot. And I think the Saudis have sent a willful, purposeful signal, certainly by killing sheikh Nimr. I mean, the others who were associated with al-Qaeda plots against the kingdom. They have been holding some of these people for years. Nimr has been in Saudi custody for 2012. Whether he is a peaceful dissident or activist I don't know. But the Saudis basically sent a fundamentally, willful signal, anyone who even appears to challenge authoritarian rule in Saudi Arabia, Shia-Sunni dissident, and to those external challengers. The Islamic (INAUDIBLE) of Iran. The Saudis are now risk ready and eager to make points and protective security.
And I think there's no other -- no other explanation. I mean, you are talking about beheadings, executions by firing squad, maybe over the New Year's weekend in an effort, it was done privately. They were not public executions. Nonetheless, this was still a sign by a risk-ready Saudi security establishment to send a message to Shia dissidents and to Iran.
SCIUTTO: So, let's talk about the U.S./Saudi relationship and how this affects that. Because that relationship has not been great either. I mean, for one, the U.S. less dependent on Saudi oil than it was in the past. We are producing more here at home. But differences with Saudi Arabia, particularly over the Iran nuclear deal.
Saudi Arabia, not happy with that agreement. We saw a fairly milquetoast reaction from the state department to these executions in effect encouraging leaders from both countries to continue diplomatic relations, that kind of thing. The kind of thing we normally hear. Is this damaging or I might have asked irreparably damaging to the U.S.-Saudi relationship?
MILLER: You know, I'm not sure I believe in irreparable damage. The fact is, as long as 40, 50 percent of the year's known petroleum reserves continue flow through the Persian Gulf and Saudi Arabia is key to that enterprise, we are going to have a - you know, unlike Lehman brothers, the U.S.-Saudi relationship may literally be too big to fail.
But I do think we are trapped. We are stuck. I mean, we don't like what the Saudis are doing in Yemen, an expensive costly war against Houthis, you know, 6,000 dead, large numbers of civilians. We don't like the fact that the Saudis are supporting in effort to counter Assad in Syria, certain groups that are very close to Al-Qaeda, yes. So there has been a good deal of frame. But we don't have many friends in this region. And whether the Saudis
are allies or frenemies, I am not sure how you characterize them. Our reaction it going to continue to be neutral key because the Saudis remain key to goals that we have, certainly campaign against ISIS and an effort to put the Syrian humpty dumpty back together again.
SCIUTTO: So the U.S. sounds like in short, the U.S. goal here is really to tamp things down. They don't want us to get further out of hand, in effect, encouraging Iran and Saudi Arabia not to over react.
MILLER: And, of course, you know, you have got implementation of the Iranian nuclear deal. So we can't afford, again, to be too tough with Iranians either on this. I think, Jim, all of this, just to conclude, all of this reflects the reality that you have a broken, angry, dysfunctional Middle East. Most of the problems, sectarian tension, bad governance, the empty spaces, dysfunctional governance are all problems that are really, in some effect, immune from American military power, political persuasion, and reluctantly, sadly, as we begin 2016, you know, whether it is an R or a D or he or a she in the White House in a year or so, the reality is that you're going to end up with major headaches still. So, a lot of problems with no obvious or evident solutions.
SCIUTTO: Sobering assessment.
Thank you, Aaron David Miller. You know your stuff. Appreciate you.
MILLER: Appreciate it, Jim. Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Still to come, the city of Chicago releases hundreds of emails about the case of Laquan McDonald.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now, the bulk of these emails are conversations happening between the communications department and the legal department talking about the message. What will the message of the city be?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[17:50:10] SCIUTTO: We will tell you what were in the emails right after this break.
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[17:53:18] SCIUTTO: As President Obama prepares to take executive action to tighten some gun rules, the Chicago police department is out with its crime statistics for 2015. This is the fourth year in a row that the city saw reductions in overall crime. However, gun violence grew in a city with some of the toughest gun rules in the U.S. And, as the New Year began, more of the same in Chicago, three dead, 21 injured just in holiday weekend shooting there.
Chicago police department as well as Mayor Rahm Emanuel has been embroiled in controversy since the November release of a videotape of the 2014 Laquan McDonald shooting. Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke pleaded not guilty Tuesday to murder and misconduct charges in the shooting of the teenager.
Nicole Gonzalez Van Cleve, she is assistant professor of criminal justice at Temple University joining me now from will Philadelphia. She is also author of "crook county racism and injustice in America's criminal courts."
Nicole, appreciate you being here. You have spent years studying the criminal justice system particularly in Cook County in Chicago. Does anything we are seeing from the rash of violence to the incidence involving police surprise you based on what you have found in your studies in.
NICOLE GONZALEZ VAN CLEVE, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE AT TEMPLE UNIVERSITY: You know, I have been studying Cook County, Chicago since 1997. And you know, we think of the violence, you know, kind of erupting over the holiday weekend. We have to think about the fact that the violence is thriving in areas that are both socially and economically neglected. The defunding of ceasefire and other programs that's would help these parts of the cities, those are the real, you know, kind of culprits. And when we think with poor communities of color that are disproportionately effective as these kind of neglected communities try to call the police, we see that they are met with equal violence. So in some way, it's a violent cycle on both ends where they are getting it from the social and economic neglect of politicians and getting it from calls to the police where they should be serving and protecting this community and they are in some ways victimized as well.
SCIUTTO: So Chicago protesters now targeting the mayor's house, his associates, the police superintendent as we know resigned under pressure from the mayor. But the calls for Rahm himself to step down continue. He has refused to this point. What can the mayor, if he stays in power, realistically change substantively?
VAN CLEVE: Right. What we have seen is from the email that's were released today is that Rahm is very concerned about his political future. But, you know, the truth is about Cook County, that there is a long history of racism and abuse by the police in Cook County and -- of color as well as by prosecutors and judges who look the other way when it happens.
So Rahm Emanuel is a mere footnote in a long, dark history in this city, and it's going to take much more meaningful reform for Rahm or any of the replacements that might come after him to in some ways infiltrate accountability into this system that has really thrived with no accountability and continues to abuse the communities that it's supposed serve.
SCIUTTO: We have seen in Chicago some of the police killings sometimes of unarmed people that we've seen in other communities. There is the criticism from some in community leaders in Chicago that Chicago has a particular police problem in terms in the use of deadly violence. In your studies, do you find something particular to Chicago? Is Chicago worse statistically when you look at the facts than other communities, you know, a problem that needs to be addressed there?
VAN CLEVE: Well, you know, I guess Chicago has a problem with constitutional racism in its criminal justice system, which is when I was in the prosecutor's office in 1997 researching and all the way through when I was still studying it while getting my PhD, you saw police officers talking that blatant racism in overt racist ways, prosecutors looking the other ways, and often, this kind of radicalized ideology and (INAUDIBLE), the rational for legitimizing abuse of the people's rights, shootings, you know, like we saw in the Laquan McDonald case. That case is the case where we saw it on video, but there's many more like Laquan McDonald.
And Chicago is certainly, as we have seen, Tamir Rice, you see Eric Gardner, Chicago is not alone, right. With racism in some ways collides with policing and lack of accountability, you get a system that begins thriving on momentum. And it's going to take some outside accountability to disrupt that culture of violence and the culture of silence. The silence meaning prosecutors looking the other way on cases they know are shaded, meaning the police officers are lying on police reports, stories not making sense when there is a person that's shot. These are the things that we need to greater steps to (INAUDIBLE).
SCIUTTO: Nicole, we are going to have to leave it there. I appreciate your work on this, Nicole Gonzalez Van Cleve.
And straight ahead, more on our own breaking news. Saudi Arabia, suddenly severing all ties on Iran after its attack on its embassy in Tehran. What this means for its overall stability for peace in the region.
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