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Donald Trump Skipping FOX Debate; Donald Trump Reviving Feud with Megyn Kelly; FBI Tries to Negotiate with Oregon Occupier. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired January 27, 2016 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00] CUOMO: He's stuck in the traffic, too. Took mom, dad and baby to the hospital. Everybody is fine.
CAMEROTA: That's a great traffic jam. Well done.
CUOMO: right?
CAMEROTA: Yes. All right. Time for "NEWSROOM" with Carol Costello right after this break. Thanks so much for joining us.
CUOMO: There she is.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Right now.
(CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: That's a really quick break.
COSTELLO: Thanks, guys. NEWSROOM starts now.
And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.
Donald Trump once again rewrites the political playbook and bails from tomorrow night's Republican debate. His bold slapdown coming just days before the all-important Iowa caucuses and it all started with this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: One of the things people love about you is you speak your mind and you don't use a politician's filter. However that is not without its downsides, in particular when it comes to women. You have called women you don't like fat pig, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account has several --
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Only Rosie O'Donnell.
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: No, it wasn't. Your Twitter account -- TRUMP: Thank you.
KELLY: For the record it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell.
TRUMP: Yes, I'm sure it was.
KELLY: Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. You once told a contestant on "Celebrity Apprentice" it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president and how will you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton who is likely to be the Democratic nominee that you are part of the war on women?
TRUMP: I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct. I've been --
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I've been challenged by so many people. And I don't frankly have time for total political correctness. And to be honest with you, this country doesn't have time either. This country is in big trouble. We don't win anymore. We lose to China. We lose to Mexico. Both in trade and at the border. We lose to everybody. And frankly, what I say and oftentimes it's fun, it's kidding. We have a good time. What I say is what I say.
And honestly, Megyn, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. I've been very nice to you, although I could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me. But I wouldn't do that. But you know what?
(CHEERS)
TRUMP: We need strength. We need energy. We need quickness and we need brain in this country to turn it around. That I can tell you right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. Donald Trump is not being so nice to Megyn Kelly. In fact earlier this morning he tweeted after bailing out on FOX News' debate last night, quote, "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter."
Let's get more now from CNN's Sunlen Serfaty. She's live in Des Moines this morning. Good morning.
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Well, the Trump campaign today is standing firm on this. They say they're not backing down from this boycott and they said that Donald Trump will not be on that debate stage tomorrow night. But this comes as Donald Trump is planning his own competing event here in Iowa tomorrow night.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SERFATY (voice-over): With five days left to drum up support ahead of the Iowa caucuses and just a day shy of the next GOP FOX debate.
TRUMP: I said bye-bye.
SERFATY: Donald Trump going rogue. Dumping FOX News.
TRUMP: Probably I won't be doing the debate. I'm going to have something else in Iowa. We'll do something where we raise money for the veterans and the wounded warriors.
SERFATY: Trump claiming unfair treatment from FOX News moderator Megyn Kelly.
TRUMP: Megyn Kelly is really biased against me. She knows that. I know that. Everybody knows that. Do you really think she can be fair at a debate?
SERFATY: FOX News standing by Kelly while Trump walks.
KELLY: Trump is not used to not controlling things. But the truth is he doesn't get to control the media.
SERFATY: So how will his power play fair with Iowans just before the first votes are cast? The RNC responding to Trump's move telling CNN, quote, "Obviously we would love all of the candidates to participate. But each candidate ultimately makes their own decision what's in their best interest."
But Ted Cruz, Trump's main opposition in the GOP race, says not so fast.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Apparently Megyn Kelly is really, really scary. Donald is a fragile soul.
SERFATY: The Texas senator issuing this challenge to the frontrunner.
CRUZ: If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.
[09:05:06] SERFATY: Trump putting the final nail in the coffin Tuesday night after FOX News released a tongue-in-cheek statement, poking fun at Trump's threats to back out, saying in part, quote, "We learned from a secret back channel that the Ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president."
TRUMP: They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So let them have their debate and let's see how they do with the ratings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SERFATY: And the Trump campaign out this morning doubling down again on that boycott. Here's what Trump's campaign manager said earlier this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COREY LEWANDOWSKI, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: What you have with Mr. Trump is you have a clear leader, a person who he said it best, is not going to be toyed with. A person who understands when a bad deal is in front of him and is ready to walk away from a bad deal. Something that this country should be able to do. And I just don't see where FOX is going to have a successful debate now when you've got the clear GOP frontrunner who's decided to walk away from this debate because he can't be treated fairly on the debate stage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: Now FOX News says their door is still open if Donald Trump happens to change his mind, saying in a statement, quote, "Trump is still welcome at Thursday night's debate and will be treated fairly just as he has been during the 132 appearances on FOX News and FOX Business. But he can't dictate the moderators or the questions."
Now the big question of course out of all of this, Carol, is how will this influence a lot of the other candidates up there on the stage. We know that one campaign, that of Senator Ted Cruz, they're already reworking their debate strategy preparing for either scenario -- Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Sunlen Serfaty reporting live from Des Moines.
With me now to discuss this latest trust -- Trump dust-up, CNN's Brian Stelter, our media correspondent, Errol Louis, political -- anchor for New York One News and a CNN political commentator, and Larry Sabato, who's the director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics.
Welcome to all of you.
So you heard the latest invite -- re-invite from FOX, Brian Stelter.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right.
COSTELLO: And Donald Trump responded in kind this morning. What did he say?
STELTER: Yes. No one at FOX holding their breath at this point for Trump to make an appearance. Here's what Trump put on Twitter a few minutes ago. He said the statement that FOX put out yesterday, the statement that Sunlen read earlier, was a disgrace to good broadcasting and journalism. He added, "Who would have ever said something so nasty and dumb?"
Well, the answer, Carol, is Roger Ailes, the head of FOX News, is the one who would have said something so nasty and dumb. Roger Ailes is the one that blasted that statement yesterday that really ticked Trump off. It really calls it to get to this point. And now there is a standoff of sorts. It seems like Trump is going to have his own event. Other networks will broadcast it. It's kind of like a counter programming move by Donald Trump.
COSTELLO: And I get why Donald Trump is mad at that statement put out on FOX News. STELTER: It was very snarky. Very mocking.
COSTELLO: It was very snarky. "We learned from a secret back channel that the ayatollah and Putin both of them to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president." That's just part of the statement. So --
STELTER: It's almost like poking at the hornet's nest. You know, Carol.
COSTELLO: It is.
STELTER: And FOX News is usually on the offensive, but now they're on the defensive because of this.
COSTELLO: But just bringing up those words that Donald used, nasty and dumb. His tweet about Megyn Kelly this morning. "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter." It's just quite a bizarre back and forth.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Speaking of nasty and dumb. Right.
COSTELLO: Right. Exactly. Speaking of nasty and dumb.
LOUIS: Speaking of nasty and dumb. I mean, that ship sailed a long time ago. You know. And we should not be confused by all of this stuff. I mean, this is some of the stuff that Trump has kind of sly tried to get away with for the last several months, but you know, what you just read should be interpreted as and should be reported as Donald Trump called Megyn Kelly a bimbo. That is what he did. And to sort of play any games with it goes down this road.
And that if you don't want to play the game with him he said, oh, you're being unfair and he sort of resorts to this kind of petulance and the kind of petty politics that we see being played out now.
STELTER: Yes. He's able to choose the moderators, choose interviewers. There is some reality that he has a lot of options. He can talk to whoever he wants. But these networks do have power when they have debates. He shouldn't be able to say, I don't want to speak to that moderator so I'm not going to participate. It is uncharted territory for debates.
COSTELLO: OK. So I want to go to Larry Sabato because -- what's really behind this, Larry? Because Ted Cruz and Donald Trump are running neck-in-neck in some polls in Iowa. Ted Cruz is clearly on the attack right now. I mean, maybe Donald Trump was a little intimidated that Ted Cruz would attack him in the latest FOX debate instead of standing there, you know, handing out platitudes to Donald Trump.
LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Carol, I think he's genuinely irritated with FOX. And of course they've been feuding for quite some time now. But what's really behind this -- and I'm guessing. But what I think happened is Donald Trump and his key people made a strategic decision that they were better off without this debate than with it.
[09:10:03] It could have been seen by then and probably would have been a trap. You're going to have six other candidates aiming most of their fire power at the national runaway frontrunner. He's not a national -- he's not a runaway frontrunner in Iowa but nationally he is. They would have all gone after him. I don't know what the moderators would have done. I think they would have been reasonably fair and tough on all of them.
But essentially Trump decided that it was better for him to find an out. Not to give them that opportunity. Now we'll see how those 125,000 to 150,000 Iowa Republicans who are going to show up Monday night and they are the only people in the world who matter right now politically.
Do they feel dissed? Do they feel trifled with? Do they see in Trump's actions somebody with the stability to serve in the Oval Office? And we'll get our answer Monday night.
COSTELLO: Yes, we will. I'm going to get into the Ted Cruz factor here in just a second. But I did want to play this -- play this sound that we managed to find in our files.
STELTER: This is a good one.
COSTELLO: And it's very interesting. This is a good one. You're right. So I want to take you back to 2011 when Donald Trump wanted to sponsor his own Republican debate.
STELTER: He was going moderate.
COSTELLO: He was going to moderate. His idea never took off because the candidate at the time, Mitt Romney, refused to participate. So Donald Trump sat down with who on FOX News? Megyn Kelly. And what did he say to her? Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're not seeing a lot of courage here, are we?
KELLY: Not so far.
TRUMP: Not lots of courage.
KELLY: Are you still going to do it?
TRUMP: You know, these Republicans, they're supposed to be brave. I was disappointed in Mitt because I really thought that he would go out and have courage because we're going to be talking about things that other people would not have talked about.
I think I know the issues better than most if not almost all. I mean, I know moderators that are doing debates that don't even know what they're talking about. KELLY: Do you really think that you're a better moderator than I am?
TRUMP: No, I could never beat you. That wouldn't even be close. That will be no contest. You have done a great job, by the way, and I mean it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So, like, Errol, what happened?
(LAUGHTER)
LOUIS: Well, I mean, first of all, looking for any consistency from Donald Trump you can't expect him to respond to anything like that with any kind of consistency. I mean, I think really what it comes down to, and Larry is exactly right, they made a strategic decision to sort of burn up another couple of news cycles rather than go into a debate with the target on his back and risk losing some of the edge that he has going into Iowa.
And you know we're talking about that now. We're still not talking about his economic plan. We're still not talking about the implications of some of what he's argued for for immigration. And so he wants to sort of freeze things where they are. Maybe sort of -- you know, burn up another couple of news cycles, run his strategy going into Monday and see if he can pull it off.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: OK. So --
STELTER: Going against FOX News could be very risky, though.
COSTELLO: Yes. Yes. I just wanted to post this question to Larry. So Ted Cruz is going to be on that stage. He's leading by far and away from the other candidates that will be on stage with him. How might this affect Ted Cruz?
SABATO: Well, they are obviously working overtime to come up with the best possible strategy. And he can use that time well. Actually they all can. They're going to get more time because Trump isn't on stage. And of course he won't be there to answer any of their criticisms but the stakes are the highest for Cruz because he is so close to Trump in Iowa. And if he can just get a few thousand more votes, he can upend Trump and have a much better chance proceeding and doing well for the nomination.
So I think that is a critical moment for him. He is a good debater. He was the champion debater even when he was at Princeton as an undergraduate. Here is his opportunity. We'll see whether he uses it well.
COSTELLO: We will. Larry Sabato, Errol Louis, Brian Stelter, thanks to all of you.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Trump rocking the Republican debate. Are his backers rolling with it? I'll talk to a Trump supporter next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:18:08] COSTELLO: Getting back to our top story this morning, Donald Trump reviving his feud with Fox News's Megyn Kelly and snubbing tomorrow night's Republican debate.
Let's talk more about with CNN Political Commentator and Donald Trump supporter, Jeffrey Lord and CNN Media & Politics reporter Dylan Byers. Welcome to both of you.
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi Carol.
COSTELLO: Hi. Jeffrey I want to start with you. Trump often says he cherish his women. Yet this morning he tweets this, "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo, because that would not be called politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter." But let's make no mistake he's calling Megyn Kelly a bimbo, why go there?
LORD: Well, Carol, you know, again the subject can change whether it's Megyn Kelly or any number of other things. What he's really demonstrating here is the whole political correctness argument. You know, in watching the clips that you play here of that debate the thing that -- I think we're missing here we're focused on Megyn Kelly versus Donald Trump, but listen to the response of the audience. The audience cheered him and I'm suggesting here that those folks are out there in Iowa, in New Hampshire and everywhere else.
COSTELLO: But Jeffrey that doesn't matter to journalist if the audience cheers.
LORD: I understand.
COSTELLO: We're not here to please the audience during debate, so again I want to go back to his tweet, why call Megyn Kelly a bimbo when Donald Trump often says he cherishes women?
LORD: All right, I understand. I understand Carol, but you need to understand you have to do your job and the American public is going to look at you journalist and say, who's in charge to this country, are we the American people or is media not Fox not CNN not the Wall Street Journal, but the media writ large and that's the attitude out here.
COSTELLO: Well.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: But I guess, I'm only wondering is why did Donald Trump feel need to go there, because I get why he's upset at Roger Ailes. I totally get that and he has a legitimate beef, no question about it.
[09:20:08] LORD: He's not politically correct. I mean, Carol if you're asking what I say it no. This is Donald Trump, he does things, he's not politically correct and this is why so many people like him. I mean you can change the subject, he can say all kinds of things that other people consider to be inappropriate. And what concerns people here, is that all of this political correctness is dragging the country down the drain.
COSTELLO: Dylan you were going to say?
DYLAN BYERS, CNN MEDIA & POLITICS REPORTER: Yeah, I would just point out. Carol, I think I agree with you. I don't think -- I don't know if applause line should necessarily be the metric by which we gauge whether or not something is right or wrong.
I think Donald Trump has said lot of things over the course of the last six months that have garnered a lot of applause. And if you can look at what he's done from insulting Mexicans and immigrants calling for Obama and Muslims, insulting Senator John McCain all the way up to his war with Fox News.
What you're really looking at are not sort of random attacks. What you are looking at are calculated efforts to stoke, support among the conservative base. And it -- when you saw that applause that Jeffrey is talking about, what you are seeing is that there are many conservatives out there who really love Donald Trump.
And don't necessarily think that Fox News is the "Be-all and end-all" of conservative media. And that's where more than, you know, Donald Trump's feud with Megyn Kelly. That's really the story playing out here. But, you know, it's important to keep in mind, Megyn Kelly has not been as unfair to Donald Trump as he has suggested. She's been as critical of every other presidential campaign as she has been of his.
COSTELLO: Jeffrey? I would agree with Dylan.
LORD: I know you would. Carol, all I'm suggesting. I mean I understand. I'm not discouraging any journalists from doing their job, of course do your job. I'm just saying that we're talking in a political context here. And in the political context the media is very unpopular. That is all I'm saying here.
And there is this sensation out there that politicians are too afraid of Fox News or CNN or whatever to stand up to them. And he does this and it gets to his larger message. Roger Ailes wrote a whole book on "You Are the Message". The message of Donald Trump is that he stands up to powerful folks and fights. That's the central message here whether it's the media or anybody else.
COSTELLO: OK. So Dylan, a former Obama advisor, keep in mind it is a former Obama advisor who said this Dan Pfeiffer, he tweeted prediction. Trump holds out to the last few hours, gets agreement from Ailes, they will be fair and shows up in the most dramatic fashion. Is that what's going to happen, Dylan?
BYERS: Look I think if there is one thing we learn from the last six months of covering Donald Trump that that he's unpredictable. A lot of folks I've talked to have said that he will not show up for this debate. Obviously Dan Pfeiffer and others think -- think that he will.
You know, this -- we sort of reached the point where Donald Trump and Fox News have reached the point of no return. They've gone all out. We saw Donald Trump tweeting just this morning that he thought was really dishonorable what Fox News has done, it's hard to see how these two sort of walk back what's happened within the next 36 hours.
Now that said both of, you know, Donald Trump and Roger Ailes, the Chairman and CEO of Fox News, they're businessmen, and also men with a, you know, who have great deal of media savvy understand how this business works. And I think they understand the potential, A ratings boon for Fox News and B sort of moment for Donald Trump to sort of drive the narrative once again if he does show up at that debate. But look, there have been so many things we've gotten wrong. I think, I don't know if we can predict this one.
LORD: Hey Carol, one other thing.
COSTELLO: Jeffrey, can you predict it?
LORD: No, I can't -- you know one other quick thing, remember back when President Obama first took office then talking about Dan Pfeifer made me realize this. President Obama himself the whole Obama White House went on a war against Fox News, Glenn Beck all of that sort of thing. That never hurt President Obama, so I'm not sure this is going to hurt Donald Trump.
COSTELLO: Yeah, but isn't that different with President Obama because he's a Democrat and Donald Trump is a Republican?
LORD: Well, it's interesting. If the Fox base is more with Donald Trump than with Fox, that's a very interesting kind of problem.
COSTELLO: Yes it is. Dylan, last words.
BYERS: Yeah, if I may. I mean I just think again this is a very important point. I think, you know, sitting in Washington and New York it's easy to think that Fox News speaks for the entire Republican Party, including the conservative base. You talk to people out here in Iowa if you talk to talk radio people that's really not the case. And that's why you see a lot of those people siding with Trump over Fox News.
LORD: Exactly.
COSTELLO: OK. I have to leave it there. Thanks to you both. Jeffrey Lord, Dylan Byers.
LORD: Thanks Carol.
[09:24:53] COSTELLO: You're welcome.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Trump says he's out of the debate, what the GOP establishment may be doing to get him out of race.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: The FBI has set up check points along key routes in and out of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. That's where a week long standoff between armed occupiers of federal land and authorities maybe winding them.
Earlier CNN affiliate KTVZ was nearby as an FBI agent tried to negotiate with a militia member inside that park compound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OCCUPIER: We can have -- if the discussion can continue but right now we need to focus on getting off ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The why did you cut off communications. Ammon was communicating with you and you didn't want to communicate with the press president. Why did you cutoff communication?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: This latest development comes on the heels of a violent arrest that went down last night as militia leader Ammon Bundy and four of his supporters were arrested during a traffic stop.
Details of the confrontation are unclear at this point but we do know one man is dead. That would be Occupation Spokesman Robert "LaVoy" Finicum.
