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Trump Criticizes Rigged Delegate System; Clinton and Sanders Clash Ahead of New York Debate. Aired 10-10:30a ET
Aired April 12, 2016 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[10:00:03] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, the race coming down to two words. Got delegates? And the fight for them getting ugly.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a rigged, disgusting, dirty system. It's a dirty system. And only a nonpolitician would say it.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald has been yelling and screaming. A lot of whining. I'm sure some cursing.
COSTELLO: But John Kasich is not sweating it.
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I'm the only one that can win in the fall, how do you pick somebody else?
COSTELLO: And the Democrats? Well, they're not playing any nicer.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Doing something extremely radical but telling the American people the truth.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have noticed that under the bright spotlight and scrutiny here in New York, Senator Sanders has had trouble answering questions.
COSTELLO: Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.
For both Democrats and Republicans the road to the White House runs through New York, and that's where Bernie Sanders is kicking off a rally right now.
Here's the view live from Rochester. The state holds a critical primary one week from today and Sanders needs to gain ground. Polls show Clinton well ahead and likely to add to her delegate lead.
Donald Trump leads in the delegate count on the Republican side. But you wouldn't know it by the way he describes the system. Rigged, disgusting, dirty. Trump firing up supporters in Albany, New York. He's seething over a weekend setback. Colorado awarded all of its delegates to Ted Cruz without a single voter casting a ballot. Trump says he was robbed. Ted Cruz says the frontrunner is whining and the third place Republican says a deadlock convention is where he'll win the nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Why would a delegate pick you if the only state you've actually won is Ohio?
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, let's see how many delegates we accumulate. But why would you pick somebody who can't win in the fall? Let me tell you what the stakes are. I believe if you pick these other guys you're not only going to lose the White House. You'll lose the court. You will lose the United States Senate, and you're going to lose a lot of seats --
COOPER: Why can't Ted Cruz win?
KASICH: Because they're too divisive. They're too negative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Phil Mattingly has more on this. He joins me live now. Good morning.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. On its face this race is one that Donald Trump is still in very good position, 746 total delegates, more than 200 than Ted Cruz, more than 600 than John Kasich, and yet the fight is on. And it's all about delegates behind the scenes and up to this point, Carol, that is a fight that Ted Cruz has won handily. That is rubbing Donald Trump the wrong way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm millions of votes ahead which they don't even talk about. They never even mention it. They talk about delegates and I'm hundreds of delegates ahead, but the system, folks, is rigged. It's a rigged, disgusting, dirty system. It's a dirty system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Now, Carol, Donald Trump is referring to Colorado where over the weekend Ted Cruz swept more than 30 delegates. That comes after North Dakota where Ted Cruz won another decent handful of delegates. State conventions around the country right now, Ted Cruz and his team, following the rules, a convoluted and sometimes difficult to follow a set of rules, but rules nonetheless, and they are securing delegates and undercutting Donald Trump in every state. Because of that, Ted Cruz says this about Trump's complaints.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now you may have noticed that when Donald loses, he gets very unhappy. He yells and screams and stomps his foot. He curses and yells and insults anyone nearby. Look, as we know in the state of California, wine is something best
served with cheese.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: A not so subtle shot there from the Cruz campaign which really across the board has dominated this effort on the ground. Like better organization than the Trump campaign, a better understanding of the very nuanced rules. Now the Trump campaign is working hard behind the scenes to try and get their team more up to speed.
But, Carol, as we talk about the 1237, the number of delegates needed to secure the Republican nomination, Donald Trump has a pathway to that number before the convention. It's a very narrow pathway, and every time Ted Cruz has an advantage like he did in Colorado or like he did in North Dakota, it starts to make that path even smaller and it starts to make an open convention even a better reality -- Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Phil, before you go, you were just here moments ago and now you're at a Kasich rally. You're fast. What's going on there?
MATTINGLY: It's -- Carol, it's the beauty of the New York primary. We actually get to hang out near our homes and near our office.
[10:05:04] You know, so, John Kasich, obviously the third candidate here. And you heard him talk last night on the CNN town hall. He has his own strategy. And it's one that he's going to lay out in detail tonight. Why he is the best alternative candidate. John Kasich is labeling the speech two paths. And it's a pathway one following that he would more or less point to Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, a pathway defined by anger and defined by saying no to things.
John Kasich wants to be the alternative candidate, Carol. As we've looked at with the delegate count, he has a lot of work to do to get to that point. His team very clear, getting to an open convention is their only pathway, but it's a pathway that they believe John Kasich can succeed in. They just need to get there first -- Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly reporting live from New York this morning. Thank you.
Let's talk more about this with CNN political commentator and radio host Ben Ferguson. I'm also joined by Bob Walker, he's a surrogate for John Kasich and a former Republican congressman, and last but not least CNN political commentator and Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord.
Thanks to all of you for being with me this morning.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.
BOB WALKER, JOHN KASICH SUPPORTER: Sure. Nice to meet you.
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Happy Tuesday, Carol.
COSTELLO: Good morning. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Bob, though, I do want to start with you. You're the Kasich supporter. I want you to take a look at the delegate count. Trump has 746, Cruz has 538 and Kasich has 145. According to the "New York Times" John Kasich has not added a delegate since March 15th. He simply cannot win. Is he just hoping that Cruz and Trump destroy one another before the convention?
WALKER: No, not at all. We're coming into the parts of the country where we have a real chance of picking up some delegates, in my home state of Pennsylvania, in Maryland, in Delaware, Rhode Island, Connecticut. Those are states where we think we'll do pretty well and will pick up delegates, and so that number will increase. And moreover, the message of John Kasich --
COSTELLO: But the math is not on your side, Bob. He can't catch up. It's mathematically impossible.
WALKER: No, he -- he can't catch up and go into the convention with 1237 votes, but he can be credible at the convention, and can on a second or third ballot get to a victory. And we think that that will happen because delegates will be serious about picking someone who can win in November.
COSTELLO: So, Jeffrey, do you agree? Is that Mr. Kasich -- Governor Kasich's goal that Mr. Trump and Ted Cruz will be so bloodied once they get to Cleveland that the delegates will look at them and they say they can't beat Hillary Clinton?
LORD: I love my old friend, Bob Walker, but I have to say I just don't think this is real. I think there are two candidates here who stand a serious chance of winning, Donald Trump is on, Ted Cruz is the other. John Kasich for all of his assets and frankly, you know, listening to the two-path speech as it's being described, you know, what this sounds to me is Margaret Thatcher's description of the socialist ratchet, when he criticized people for saying no, what he's really saying is say, yes to big government, and some fashion just a little so than the other guys on the left. And that's a non-sell, I think.
COSTELLO: Well --
FERGUSON: Carol, Carol --
COSTELLO: But the seller maybe, because in polls John Kasich does fair well against Hillary Clinton better than the other two candidates. So should voters or delegates totally dismiss that, Ben?
FERGUSON: Look, let's be clear. John Kasich isn't in third place. He's in fourth place in the delegate count behind someone who already dropped out. If you look at the delegate count right now, he has -- he's in fourth place. Marco Rubio has more delegates than he has and Marco Rubio hasn't been running since Florida.
This is the most absurd campaign that I've seen, ever, at this point just on the fact that people keep rejecting you. You're not adding any delegates. You're in fourth place. Even when the third place guy dropped out, you haven't picked up any delegates since then. So I don't know what world he's living in right now to think that somehow fourth place, when other place are in third place beating you, is somehow an option for you becoming the president. I think it's time for him to drop out and just say, hey, I'm not going to win this.
COSTELLO: On the other hand, Bob, and I want you to stand up for your candidate. That's what you're here for, right?
WALKER: Sure.
COSTELLO: So John Kasich is drawing pretty big crowds here in New York. He drew -- he did draw 4,000 people to one of his rallies. And, you know, on the other hand, why should he drop out? If people want to vote for John Kasich, they can vote for him. If they want to vote for Ted Cruz, they can vote for Ted Cruz, and the same with Mr. Trump.
WALKER: Look, the real answer here is, I don't know any states that either Donald Trump can carry or that Ted Cruz can carry that Mitt Romney didn't carry. I mean, in other words, they will get those votes. John Kasich has the ability to carry states like Ohio and Pennsylvania in the general election, and we can add to our total and get the number of electoral votes we need to elect a president.
The problem here is that we're not looking at general election. We're only looking at the primary, and we think that we ought to look beyond that to a general election where somebody needs to be there that can beat Hillary Clinton.
[10:10:05] FERGUSON: But if you're not being chosen by the Republican Party, the conservatives in your own primary, this idea that somehow you're a better candidate in the general, that all of a sudden all these Republicans are just going to come --
COSTELLO: Although Donald Trump calls it rigged.
FERGUSON: Well, Donald Trump calls everything rigged when he's losing. This is what Donald Trump does. I mean, Donald Trump becomes unhinged when he's losing an election. And the fact is Donald Trump -- nothing has been stolen from him. Donald Trump has been outhustled. For a guy that wrote a book about the art of the deal he should have paid attention --
COSTELLO: Voters in Colorado did not cast a single ballot. So that's not illegal and there's nothing wrong.
FERGUSON: Carol --
COSTELLO: But how can you not say there's not something wrong with that, Ben?
FERGUSON: Carol, each state gets to decide what they want to do. You didn't see Rubio or Ted Cruz lose their minds when all of the delegates in Florida went to who, Donald Trump, because Florida decided they were going to have a winner-take-all, even if you got 50 plus one percent. That's the way that it works in Florida. If you just win in Florida, you get all of them. Did you see Ted Cruz lose his mind when Texas decided to have a proportional delegate? No, he didn't. He understood then rules when he went in.
Now he beat Donald Trump handily in Texas, but he didn't get all the delegates there. If you're running for president, you know the rules. Each state has their own rules, and when you lose, no matter how they do it, don't act like someone is Gestapoing you as he put it. This is how it works in every state. They get to decide and if you get beat, be a little classy and say --
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: OK. So, along those same lines, John Kasich is not violating any rules. He has every right to stay in the race as long as he --
FERGUSON: Sure. No. He does.
COSTELLO: So why should he drop out, Jeffrey?
WALKER: Precisely.
LORD: Yes. I mean, I hope John Kasich stays in. In Michigan we had a little delegate battle there over positions on the rules committee, and thanks I think to our friend Paul Manafort, Donald Trump and John Kasich emerged as winners there and Ted Cruz was the loser with both the Trump and Kasich campaigns getting one delegate each on the rules committee which is going to be crucial. So I think the delegate game is improving dramatically on the Trump side.
WALKER: And there's nothing dirty or disgusting about the process. The fact is I've been a delegate to several conventions. I spent my own money to go to those conventions and to do my civic duty. The fact is this is a very, very good process that has served the country pretty well for 160 years.
COSTELLO: I don't think, though, many voters at home, Bob, sat back and thought this would ever happen. Because they don't -- they just don't think about it. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: They don't. No, that's right.
FERGUSON: Yes.
COSTELLO: In Colorado a lot of voters are feeling like my vote really doesn't matter, and you hear that all the time, but Colorado, it seems, just kind of solidified that in people's minds.
FERGUSON: Here's my question, though. If Donald Trump would have won in Colorado, Donald Trump would have said the process is amazing. It's just the fact that he lost that he doesn't like the process. There have been states where Donald Trump has done well where it's been a unique primary or caucus. This is only -- the only reason why people are focused on Colorado right now is the frontrunner basically totally blew it. He fired his guy in Colorado the week before you had these caucuses,
and I think this is one thing that's been overlooked. Donald Trump insulted those in the convention at Colorado by not showing up. He stood them up. To think you're going to win in Colorado when you don't even show up to court those in the process in Colorado and then he sits there and he wonders why he didn't win, it's absurd.
You didn't show up. You didn't talk to the voters. You didn't shake hands and you didn't play by the rules in Colorado, and they rejected you.
LORD: Carol, I think I need --
COSTELLO: Hold on. Hold on for just one second. We -- I know my executive producer, Michelle, is working on breaking news for us.
So, Michelle, is it ready to go? All right. So this is coming out of the state of Missouri. The secretary of state has certified the GOP results. You know it's taken a long time, right, and guess what? Donald Trump wins. He wins the 12 delegates from that state.
So, Jeffrey, you have something to celebrate this morning.
LORD: Well, yes. I mean, the point is --
FERGUSON: Congratulations.
LORD: Thank you. Everything that Ben is saying here, the point is Donald Trump is still winning as this bulletin just, you know, reemphasizes. So you've got to keep winning, and Senator Cruz who is a busy, in his words, whining about the "Drudge Report," needs to sort of hop to here. These are the two guys. There's no question about it. They represent the base of the Republican Party. The Republican Party base is very serious about that.
I think at some point I would hope that the two of them form an alliance. It's a little too soon for that at this point, but down the road --
FERGUSON: Carol --
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: I'm laughing. I got to leave it there. Thanks to all of you. I appreciate it. Ben, Bob, Jeffrey.
[10:15:04] OK. I'm just looking at this certified vote from the state of Missouri. So Donald Trump came in first followed by Ted Cruz. John Kasich came in third and then he was followed by Marco Rubio. Keep in mind the primary took place in Missouri way back on March 15th. It's final now, though.
CNN's Republican presidential town hall with the candidates and their families continue tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Donald Trump and his wife, Melania, his daughters Ivanka and Tiffany, and his sons Eric and Don, Jr. will all take questions from the voters of New York. It airs at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN. And by the way tomorrow night it will be Ted and Heidi Cruz's turn.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Sanders -- Bernie Sanders set to take the stage as the Democrats war of words reignites.
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COSTELLO: All right. As you can see, Bernie Sanders drawing a large and noisy crowd ahead of Thursday's Brooklyn showdown with Hillary Clinton.
[10:20:03] This is in -- this is a live rally. It's taking place right now in Rochester. Sanders took to the stage just moments ago, and he was talking about how amazing this race has been for him in terms of numbers, and how he was able to catch to Clinton after being so far behind at the beginning.
If you ask Hillary Clinton, though, the Empire State pressure is getting to Sanders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I have noticed that under the bright spotlight and scrutiny here in New York, Senator Sanders has had trouble answering questions. He's had trouble answering questions about his core issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: CNN's Chris Frates is at the Sanders rally. He has more for you now. Good morning.
CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. Bernie Sanders just getting going here and firing up this crowd. We'll see what he has to say about Hillary Clinton because Sanders and Clinton have been fighting like two cats in a bag over the last week or so, hitting each other on guns, on Wall Street and their policy positions. In fact Hillary Clinton put a new spin on an old dig, hitting Bernie Sanders for his gun control policy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Most of the guns that are used in crimes and violence and killings in New York come from out of state. And the state that has the highest per capita number of those guns that end up committing crimes in New York come from Vermont.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRATES: Now Bernie Sanders has been hitting back against Hillary Clinton, just hitting her so hard for taking speeches and big money from Wall Street for those speeches. Also questioning her judgment and her Iraq war vote in particular. Clinton has said that that vote was a mistake, and it doesn't seem any of Sanders' criticism yet is breaking through because Hillary Clinton still leading by double digits in the polls here in New York. In fact she started to take on Republicans, putting out an ad against Donald Trump yesterday. So with just a week to go until this crucial New York primary, this
race continues to heat up. We're going to hear what Bernie Sanders has to say as he continues to fire up this crowd and try to get them out to vote next Tuesday to upset Hillary Clinton in her adopted home state of New York -- Carol.
COSTELLO: How many people are there?
FRATES: Well, there's -- we have not talked to the fire marshal yet, Carol, but I can tell you a big crowd here, hundreds if not several thousand -- Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Chris Frates reporting live from Rochester this morning.
As you heard, Bernie Sanders is biting back, criticizing Hillary Clinton for using the term super predator back in the '90s to describe young criminals. And he's pushing for President Bill Clinton to apologize, too, for passing a crime bill that put hundreds of young non-violent black men behind bars.
Bill Clinton did not take to that kindly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Sometimes in this primary I get the feeling that the gentleman that is running against Hillary is running harder against President Obama and me than he is against the legacy of the Bush administration and trickledown economics. But I did it. You know, after he's been a Democrat a little while longer, he'll get used to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: With me now Tad Devine, a senior media adviser for the Sanders campaign.
Welcome, Tad.
TAD DEVINE, SENIOR MEDIA ADVISER, BERNIE 2016: Thanks, Carol.
COSTELLO: So you want to tackle what Bill Clinton said first.
DEVINE: Well, you know, Bernie Sanders has been in the Congress for 25 years. He's caucused with the Democrats in the House and the Senate for all that time. As a matter of fact, when he and Hillary Clinton both served in the Congress, his record of supporting the Democratic leadership was a little bit higher than hers. So it's true. He's elected as an independent --
COSTELLO: Why did he choose to run as a Democrat? Why not run as an independent?
DEVINE: Sure. Because he didn't want to be Ralph Nader. OK. He didn't want to elect a Republican. He wanted to make sure that the next president is a Democrat and not a Republican. So that's why he joined the Democratic Party to run for president.
COSTELLO: So Hillary Clinton supporters would say Bernie Sanders is hitting Clinton so hard that it will make it difficult for her, you know, if she becomes the nominee, right? And she runs against a Republicans. And they say that actually both candidates should tone things down because the goal here is to elect a Democratic president. So why are they hitting each other so hard?
DEVINE: Well, it's a tough competition. I mean, this is Hillary Clinton's home state here in New York. There's a tremendous media scrutiny. She's right about that. But listen, compared to what Hillary Clinton did to Barack Obama in 2008, I mean, no, I don't think so. Bernie stuck to the issues. There's been a whole range of topics that he has not spoken about. I don't even want to enumerate them just to bring them up.
COSTELLO: Well, just on the super predator and the crime bill.
DEVINE: Sure.
COSTELLO: Because President Clinton seems to be quite upset about that.
President Clinton said that crime bill did bring the crime rate down at a time when the crime rate was spiraling out of control. I just talked to Mayor Rudy Giuliani who was mayor for New York City in the '90s at that time.
In 1990 New York City had more than 2,000 murders. Today as of April 1st, the city of New York has 68.
[10:25:03] Rudy Giuliani said, you know, Bill Clinton's crime bill helped me bring the crime rate down in New York City in the '90s.
I also asked him about the term super predators and what that meant and if Hillary Clinton should apologize for that, and this is what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So should Hillary Clinton have apologized for using the term super predator back in the '90s?
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: What she should have said is you should thank my husband for all the lives that he saved.
COSTELLO: Why isn't she doing that?
GIULIANI: I don't know. Because she's pandering. Bernie went to her left. She's going further -- I don't know. I think if Bernie says I'll reduce taxes by 80 percent, she'll say I'll reduce them by 90 percent. Eventually they're going to reduce taxes by 150 percent and we're going to be, I don't know, in debt to the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: OK. So obviously Rudy Giuliani is a Republican. Right?
DEVINE: I apologize, Carol. I'm sorry.
COSTELLO: I know. But the first part he said Hillary Clinton has nothing to apologize.
DEVINE: Right.
COSTELLO: Because the term super predator meant career criminals and it had nothing to do with any -- anything with a racist undertone.
DEVINE: Sure. Well, I'm not surprised to see a Republican like Rudy Giuliani endorse Hillary Clinton's language and Bill Clinton's policies. In the '90s, what President Clinton did when he first got elected, what he did specifically and particularly in 1996 was to triangulate. That was their political approach. They put him in between the Republicans and the Democrats.
COSTELLO: He would call it a compromise.
DEVINE: Well, I would call it what his -- Republican political consultant Dick Morris called, triangulation. That's precisely what they intended to do. They were running ads about how tough they were on crime in Christian radio stations in the south while he was being reelected. This was a political strategy, and the language that they used at the time frankly should be apologized for. And when Bernie was asked about it the other night at the Apollo Theater, he stood up and he told the truth about it. That's within --
COSTELLO: But the crime rate was high in the '90s.
DEVINE: It was.
COSTELLO: 2,000 murders --
DEVINE: And there were good things in the crime bill. There's no doubt about it. The violence against women.
COSTELLO: Because Bernie Sanders voted for it, right?
DEVINE: That's right. And also the assault weapon ban. You know, they attack Bernie all the time on guns, including this ridiculous attack that Secretary Clinton launched yesterday. The truth is he's always supported the ban on assault weapons.
COSTELLO: So the guns coming into New York City -- New York state isn't -- they're not coming from Vermont mostly?
DEVINE: To say rural bucolic Vermont is the source of gun crime in New York is ridiculous. You know, 55 of the 4,587 guns that they seized were from Vermont. OK, hundreds -- 380 were from Georgia, more than that were from Virginia.
It's what Hillary Clinton does. And frankly, this is her problem. OK. If you have a candidate who lacks credibility and that voters don't trust and believe, to have her launch on her opponent with attacks that are unbelievable, like she said in Michigan when she said Bernie against saving the auto industry because he voted against the Wall Street bailout. Like they said in New Hampshire, when they said Bernie Sanders wants to take away your health care because he's proposing Medicare for all. These attacks undermine her, frankly, more than they undermine Bernie Sanders.
COSTELLO: So I'm thinking the attacks will continue?
DEVINE: Well, I think we will debate the issues, I'll tell you that. And she will continue to say things that are bizarre and absurd and not documented in the facts.
COSTELLO: Tad Devine, thanks for stopping by.
DEVINE: Thanks, Carol.
COSTELLO: Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will duke it out in the next Democratic debate this Thursday. It will be the first time both have been on stage face to face in more than five weeks. Wolf Blitzer is the moderator. Starts at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only on CNN.
We are waiting for John Kasich to speak. He's going to speak at any moment now and we expect him to outline his path to the presidency, even though there's no way he can mathematically win enough delegates to win the nomination. I'll be back with much more after this.
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