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Interview With Jane Sanders; Ivanka Trump Defends Father; Donald Trump Attacks RNC. Aired 15-15:30p ET
Aired April 13, 2016 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:01]
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Reportedly Priebus should -- quote, unquote -- "be ashamed of himself" for a nominating system that Trump calls rigged.
He is reacting to his loss in the state of Colorado, not by popular vote, but by a state convention of delegates. And Trump had a lot more to say during CNN's town hall featuring the candidate and his family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: but I know that it's stacked against me by the establishment.
We had a lot of delegates, and they were not heard, because the Republican Party out there was 100 percent probably controlled by the RNC.
D. TRUMP: They changed the rules a number of months ago. The people in...
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: About eight months ago.
D. TRUMP: Well, it's not very long ago.
COOPER: But you had a lot of time to prepare a better organization.
D. TRUMP: You know why they changed the rules? Because they saw how I was doing, and they didn't like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Reince Priebus has taken to Twitter, reacting -- quote -- "Nomination process known for a year and beyond. It is the responsibility of the campaigns to understand it. Complaints now? Give us all a break."
With me now, the secretary of state of Kansas, Kris Kobach. He is endorsing Donald Trump.
Nice to see you Kris. Welcome back.
KRIS KOBACH, KANSAS SECRETARY OF STATE: Great to see you, too. BALDWIN: Do you really want your candidate at war with the Republican
Party and with the RNC?
KOBACH: No, of course, not. At the end of the day, whoever is nominee is for the party has to have the full backing of the party or it's going to be a very difficult way for the Republicans to win.
But I would say this. I think Mr. Trump's comments reflect the general sense and the realization among a lot of people in the public that, hey, the votes of the people don't necessarily translate into an equivalent number of candidates.
You know, if you do some quick math, you can see that Trump has won 8.2 million votes so far and Cruz has won 6.2 million votes, so almost a two-million-vote difference. Most people would call that a blowout if you had, say, a state election with that big a difference.
And yet it may -- it's possible if Trump doesn't get to 1,237 that Cruz may get the nomination. And so I think a lot of people are saying, well, that doesn't sound fair. Polls show that Republicans want the person who gets the highest number of delegates to be the person who has the nomination.
BALDWIN: Understood that this may not feel fair and you are probably not alone in feeling that way. But everyone got into the race knowing the rules. The rules are the rules. You acknowledge that you absolutely need the RNC to win this thing. So, that said, given everything Trump has said, how do you fix this?
KOBACH: You know, that's a really great question.
And I think the biggest -- saying this as a Republican, I used to be the state chairman of Kansas years ago, and so former member of the RNC myself. The most important thing is to capitalize on all the enthusiasm. One fact that a lot of people haven't noted is that Republican participation is in these primaries is dwarfing Democratic participation.
Right now, 5.5 million more Republicans have voted in the primaries around the country than Democrats. That's a huge advantage. Right? Well, that advantage will disappear if after the convention Republican voters feel like they were slighted or cheated. They won't feel like their votes mattered.
That may be the Democrats' ace in the hole. Republicans have to find a way to make Republicans across the country agree that the process is fair. That's an important conundrum for the party.
BALDWIN: It is. It is. And that's something maybe we address post- Cleveland or post-November even.
But when you are looking, when you are staring down at Cleveland, do you think if Trump doesn't hit that 1,237 after that first ballot -- first of all, if you think he's close, let's say within 50, what do you think happens? KOBACH: I think if he is close like, as you describe, within 50, then
the argument becomes pretty compelling for the Trump side to say, look, this is -- you know, we are talking about a race that has a really big difference between the votes of the number one and the number two person. It wouldn't be fair.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Wait. Are you saying they would just give it to him?
KOBACH: No. No. But I think the argument would be made on the convention floor that it would be awfully hard to say, you know what, the second-place person, even though he didn't come nearly close to crossing the line like Trump did, we're going to go ahead and give it to somebody else anyway.
But as that 50 vote hypothetical you describe grows, what it's 200 votes? Then the Cruz team's argument becomes stronger. But if it's close, I think you are going to see a lot said on the convention floor that, hey, how can we possibly deny the nomination to someone who came virtually within getting that 1,237 number
BALDWIN: Right. Do you think if it isn't that close and if it does go to that second ballot, do you think you know Trump is doomed at that point?
KOBACH: No, I don't think he is doomed.
And, you know, having been to a couple of these conventions as a delegate, this is uncharted territory for these people. Most of these people weren't around as delegates -- weren't delegates back in 1976. So what happens on that second vote is anybody's guess. I think there is another misconception out there that there is someone behind the curtain manipulating that second vote.
No, it's not. It's over 2,000 people who are going to be making up their own decision probably as states trying to talk it through together. And it's going to be really exciting to watch. But I don't think anyone can predict what's going to happen on that second vote.
[15:05:08]
BALDWIN: Unpredictable, this whole thing has been. Kris Kobach, Kansas secretary of state supporting Trump, thank you so much, as always, for joining me. I appreciate it.
Been looking at my panel out of the corner of my eye sort of nodding along listening to that conversation.
I have with me now CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger, CNN political director David Chalian and CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter, used to be the communications director for Senator Ted Cruz.
A lot of nodding along on the maybe lack of enthusiasm because of all the Republicans who are showing up, and maybe they will feel frustrated. But, bottom line, what did you make of what he said?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I thought it made a lot of sense.
BALDWIN: Yes.
BORGER: Particularly when he talks about the margins, because if it's 50 votes, that's really different from 200 votes.
BALDWIN: Right.
BORGER: And another thing that Kris Kobach said that I thought was interesting is that delegations may work together to figure out where they go.
And, you know, we all talk about delegate this, delegate that. What if delegations actually who -- and don't forget, these delegates are party people. They care about winning, they care about the future of the Republican Party. They don't want to see chaos. They know it's not going to help them in November. This notion that delegations may actually work together to figure out...
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: You mean the deals to get to the 1,237 or...
BORGER: The Mississippi delegation or the Louisiana delegation, you know, they are going to have delegation meetings and kind of try and hash this through, because they are party people, is an interesting idea.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I mean, one of the things that I think we forget when we're looking at Ted Cruz's organizational strength that we have been talking about a lot in the last couple of days, lining up all these delegates to be there in the eventuality of a second ballot or beyond, those are not locked in. Yes, they may be right now delegates loyal to Ted Cruz.
And they say that, and the Cruz folks can mark them down. But they are actually more like what we talk about on the Democratic side, superdelegates. They are completely movable until they cast their vote once they are unbound, right?
If the dynamic of the race -- this is where the margins argument comes in. If the dynamic of the race is that Donald trump goes into Cleveland with a ton of momentum, has won a ton of contests going in, gets there and falls just short, you can see that even some of those delegates that Ted Cruz lined up in Colorado or in other states all of a sudden are susceptible to an argument from the Trump folks that it did get so close.
Even though the Cruz folks are organizing well, it's not a guarantee that those folks will be with them as well.
AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I will say, no matter the nominee is, what happens at the convention is important because it is finally an opportunity for the party, people like Paul Ryan, Reince Priebus, and others to make a statement finally of what the party stands for. What direction are we going?
Because we have seen something nothing but chaos throughout the process. Unless they get a hold this and have a united front coming out of the convention, it will be a disaster for the general election.
BALDWIN: With that said, and to your point about these are party people, if we are talking though currently about Donald Trump saying the whole system is rigged, isn't there going to be little love lost?
BORGER: Well, I think that's the long-term problem we have. Look, in the short-term, claiming the system is corrupt and it's rigged against him is a very, very smart way to rally your base around you because...
BALDWIN: But the party people matter and the RNC matter and the rules setters matters.
BORGER: It's not a great way to say, I think you are corrupt, vote for me. But, but people understand what -- I think people understand what he is doing. I think it can certainly alienate people. And then if you win, of course, the question is, is the system still illegitimate if Donald Trump wins?
CHALIAN: Brooke, with things can be true at the same time. Right? It can be true that the rules are the rules and there is a playbook and everybody should be playing by that playbook.
And it can be true that this system is crazy, that just to anybody sitting at home saying, this is how we get our party's nominees? It's not as simple as one person, one vote. And Donald Trump is seizing on the simplicity of that kind of argument and his popular vote total. Even though, listen, it is true, those are not the rules, this is how the game is played, that doesn't mean that there is not an argument that has resonance that is just like, this is...
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But given the idea what is the message that the party is going to want to latch on to and campaign for in a general election, Donald Trump throughout this has always campaigned against the system.
He's the anti-establishment guy. He's always scapegoating somebody, he's always fighting somebody. But what is he actually campaigning on? Look at this week. He is not talking about jobs. He is not talking about immigration. He is bashing the RNC.
While people could latch on to a tear the system down message, it is effective to a point, is that something Republicans down the ticket are going to want to campaign on?
BALDWIN: And to that point, I was just talking last hour to former Virginia Governor Jim Gilmore, wanted to be president, was part of the current crop of Republican candidates and also sat in the seat that Reince Priebus currently occupies.
[15:10:04]
And I was saying, have you seen anything, sort of open war like this before? And he said no. And he also gave me -- we were talking about Humpty Dumpty yesterday. I'm going to give you a different analogy involving bridges and crocodiles.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: The bridge to the presidency has been burned down. But on the other hand, Hillary Clinton is so bad. And, you know, if you talk about a bridge being burned down across the river, there is something down in the river. And that's an alligator and it's called Hillary Clinton.
BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton is the alligator in this metaphor?
GILMORE: Yes, she's the alligator. We have got to figure out how to get across this river even though the bridge has been burned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BORGER: OK, stop that metaphor.
(CROSSTALK)
CHALIAN: Aren't the alligators the ones that usually then end up like biting...
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: I don't really get that metaphor.
I do, however -- I think what he is trying to say is that maybe the party will unite if Hillary Clinton is the nominee.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: I think he's saying the bridge to the presidency because of this war with the RNC and Donald Trump and everything else is burned down. He is worried about it. And then he added the layer about the crocodile snapping below.
BORGER: But she will bring the Republicans together like nobody else can.
I just want to talk about your point about the system being crazy, though.
BALDWIN: Yes.
BORGER: Because we say this every four years. The Iowa caucuses are crazy. Why do we do -- and the system is crazy, and at some point these -- the caucuses sort of become outmoded to a great degree given the way our world operates these days. And maybe some of these smaller caucuses and some of these things like
what we heard in Colorado, what would you even call that?
CHALIAN: Convention.
BORGER: Convention, a convention.
Maybe those things need to evolve and change. And that is something that even the party is at war with Donald Trump, I think they would be foolish not to take a look at this and say...
BALDWIN: Once this whole is said and done.
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: The thing that is funny is that they do adapt and change it every cycle. Like, they changed the rules in Colorado.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: And make it work?
CARPENTER: The whole system was, you know, engineered in a way, front-loaded calender to privilege a well-funded establishment-type candidate like a Jeb Bush.
That backfired.
BORGER: Totally.
CARPENTER: The point is, it is always changing, but nobody can ever predict what happens. And when it doesn't favor that person, they complain about it and they change it again.
It is this constantly evolving thing and there are complaints. But you still have to work within...
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: ... however crazy it might be.
CHALIAN: It reminds me a little bit after Florida 2000.
(CROSSTALK)
CHALIAN: What got exposed in Florida in 2000 was, this is how we vote? All these different systems. And some people do it paper and some -- and we learned a lot about that and then they passed the Help America Vote Act. And they tried.
There was some solutions that were put forward to try. I'm not sure we gotten there as a country yet in a really sophisticated way to vote. But this is the same thing. What is being exposed now is, this is how each party chooses its nominees? Maybe we need to look at this.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: That's an excellent point. And we're going to leave it on that, Mr. Chalian. Thank you very much, David Chalian, Gloria Borger, Amanda Carpenter. Thank you.
We have so much more to talk about. See you all tomorrow in Brooklyn.
Meantime, don't forget, Ted Cruz and his wife, Heidi, will sit down for their own CNN town hall tonight. Anderson Cooper moderates that live from New York this evening 9:00 Eastern only here on CNN.
BALDWIN: Ben Carson's closest aide getting booed by black leaders today about his comments about the African-American vote. You will see what exactly happened. We will play it for you. You be the judge.
And hear how Donald Trump's daughter Ivanka defends her dad over his controversial remarks about women in a very personal answer.
And Bernie Sanders' wife, Jane Sanders, joins me live on set for the very first time. What does she think about Trump defending her husband when it comes to the system that we were just discussing? Stand by for that. You are watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:17:56]
BALDWIN: Make these candidates work for it. They need to earn your vote. That's part of the sentiment from a man who played a key role in the campaign of former presidential candidate Ben Carson.
This is what Armstrong Williams told African-American voters today attending the National Action Network Convention in New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Make these people earn your vote. If it's Donald Trump, so be it. If it's Bernie Sanders, so be it.
Do not allow the Clintons and the establishment to waltz in here and wave their hand and everything is OK.
(BOOING)
WILLIAMS: Let them earn your vote. OK? I don't mind the hisses because you know the truth when you hear it. Make them earn your vote. If they talk about race, they play the race card too, as they did in South Carolina against Barack Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: CNN's Joe Johns with me now.
And just reading the transcript, sounds like he was booed and hissed multiple times in the room.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Right.
BALDWIN: Talk about sort of the significance of his comments and then the fact that Hillary Clinton stepped on the stage minutes later.
JOHNS: Right.
First thing you need to know about Armstrong Williams is that he is the former business manager for Ben Carson. He is a conservative, he is a Republican. A lot of the things he says are not going to be taken so easily by the National Action Network, a progressive group.
Nonetheless, some of the themes he's citing here are things that have been said by progressive African-American leaders, not being taken for granted, because there is skepticism on both sides of the minority politics spectrum in this country about the Democrats, questions about whether Bernie Sanders can deliver on his promises.
I think the immigrant voting community is concerned about whether he is genuine. African-American voters, on the other hand, are very concerned whether he can deliver at all. And on Hillary Clinton, there are big questions about things like the 1994 crime bill which her husband signed when he was in office. There are questions about the welfare reform bill which her husband signed when he was in office.
So, all these things come together as a stew. And a lot of leaders on all sides of the minority voter spectrum are questioning, you know, which candidate is the best for them.
[15:20:08]
BALDWIN: Right. Right. We were talking about the '94 crime bill and both Senator Sanders supported it at the time. And, of course, she has and now they are saying it was too much. But I think it's definitely a piece of conversation today in this election.
JOHNS: That's right.
BALDWIN: OK. I'm being told we need to hear from Hillary Clinton. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: White Americans need to do a much better job of listening when African-Americans talk about the seen and unseen barriers you face every day.
We need to recognize our privilege and practice humility, rather than assume our experiences are everyone else's experiences.
(APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: We need to try as best we can to walk in your shoes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS: What's interesting about Hillary Clinton and her comments there, she kind of stuck to the script of things she has said before to African-American audiences. Wasn't much different. Very tested sort of message.
Even given the fact that "The New York Times" just today had called on her to explain more fully the dynamics surrounding, say, the 1994 crime bill, she didn't take this opportunity to go much further, because the stakes are quite high here in New York, and the one thing you don't want to do is make news in a bad way when you are leading by double digits.
BALDWIN: Right. Joe Johns, thank you very much. Nice to see you.
JOHNS: Good to see you.
BALDWIN: And just a reminder, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will go head to head in Brooklyn tomorrow night. Do not miss the CNN Democratic debate in Brooklyn 9:00 Eastern only here on CNN.
Coming up next, Donald Trump's daughter Ivanka stealing the spotlight at CNN's town hall, defending her dad and talking about her own failure to register to vote in time for the New York primary. We will take a closer look at Ivanka Trump professionally and personally.
Plus, Verizon's CEO Bernie Sanders called uninformed, his views contemptible, this after Sanders joined striking Verizon workers on the picket line today. That said, guess who I get to talk to in a moment? Jane Sanders, the senator's wife. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:26:48]
BALDWIN: Just about the bottom of the hour. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Wanted to talk with Ivanka Trump today. She is the second oldest child to Republican front-runner Donald Trump. No, she is not running for office, but, if she were, she could probably scoop up plenty of votes after her appearance last night here at CNN during our town hall, articulate, unflappable, very, very bright, poised, grace.
She tackled every question tossed at her from the audience and from Anderson Cooper, including questions about how her father treats women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: I think the way he raised me, the way he raised Tiffany, it's a testament to the fact that he believes in inspiring women, empowering women.
He always taught me that there wasn't anything that I couldn't do if I set my mind to it, if I had deep passion, if I really unearthed what it is that I wanted to do with my life and then worked very hard to achieve it. And I don't think that's the message a father would relay to a daughter who he didn't believe had the potential to accomplish exactly what her brothers could.
So, you know, for me, it's his actions speak louder than the words of many politicians who talk about gender equality, but it's not evidenced in their daily employment practices.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's talk to Tim Teeman, senior editor at The Daily Beast, who did an extensive sit-down with Ivanka Trump just this past February.
And he joins me now here.
So nice to meet you.
TIM TEEMAN, THE DAILY BEAST: Hi. So lovely to meet you too.
BALDWIN: I mean, just reading this whole piece, you must have gotten quite a bit of time with her, just how thorough you were in your interaction with her, your description of Ivanka Trump.
TEEMAN: Absolutely.
BALDWIN: And just even with that clip, I couldn't take my eyes off of her, to be honest.
TEEMAN: Yes.
BALDWIN: Is that -- do you have that?
TEEMAN: Yes, I do.
I interviewed her at the end of last year for "Town & Country" magazine. And she knew it was going to be a cover shoot. So, she was the cover star of "Town & Country"'s February issue. She was looking -- she does look fantastic. She looks fantastic off camera. She looks great on camera. But she also knows the role that she is currently in.
She knows what her father is like. She is 100 percent loyal to her father. And that loyalty is true. It is not made up. It's not confected for the cameras. That's absolutely true.
She also knows he is an extreme person, I think, and she knows how to protect her own brand and what she needs to do in her own life. She balances both those things, and I think she balances them with great skill. I spoke to her for about an hour, yes.
BALDWIN: You talked about she said to you as a girl she would tour construction sites with her parents. Her father gave her like construction renderings, and a note on one might read, "Ivanka, I can't wait until you work with me one day."
TEEMAN: Yes.
BALDWIN: And you had this conversation.
And she said to you, listen, I'm on even footing and with my brothers. If my dad didn't think of women, obviously, I would have some subordinate role. And she doesn't.
TEEMAN: Yes.
She doesn't have a subordinate role. I mean, voters and people will have to make up their own mind.
BALDWIN: People are questioning based upon some of the comments he's made.
TEEMAN: Absolutely.
Well, her own personal experience of her father -- and who knows what -- how much family loyalty informs that decision -- is that it has been an equal playing field.
I think Ivanka is a great weapon, secret or not, for her father to show that he is good with women. He has been extremely good with her. He has immense respect for her. She has immense respect for him.
I find it interesting we are talking about this on a day that Megyn Kelly went -- supposedly went to Trump Tower.
BALDWIN: To Trump Tower to have a chat with Mr. Trump.
TEEMAN: Because one of Donald Trump's big problems, if you believe the statistics and the focus groups, is with women.
