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Exclusive Interview With Jane Sanders; Ted Cruz Scooping Dozens of Delegates Committed to Abandoning Donald Trump on the Second Ballot. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 13, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] TIM TEEMAN, INTERVIEWED IVANKA TRUMP DURING EXTENDED SIT DOWN: I find it interesting that we are talking about this on the day when Megyn Kelly supposedly went to Trump tower.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: To Trump tower to have a chat with Donald Trump.

TEEMAN: Because one of Donald Trump's big problems if you believe the statistics and the focus groups is with women. And I can tell you Ivanka's poise, her intelligence, her ambition, her clear dedications to her family and her children and her husband are true. They are honest and they are great.

Now, I'm not sure at this point, early in the campaign she was very much in that campaign. She introduced her father when he came out. I'm not sure whether she is going to play even bigger role as time goes on. We may see and now that she has had her baby, we may see her again out there campaigning for her father. She loves him very much. She is incredibly loyal to him.

BALDWIN: Do you think privately she challenges him?

TEEMAN: I would think she would have to. I did ask about it in the interview. And she said yes I do challenge my father. She wouldn't be clear on what. But I can't imagine that some of those comments described to him around women, if he really feels that, I can't imagine a daughter who is a feminist herself who clearly believes in having exactly the same rights as men and equality in any other way couldn't be. And I would think she also talks to him, I would hope she does. She is of a generation that would talk to her parent on other matters such as sexuality, on race, all those issues where he is not obviously playing very well with the electorate.

BALDWIN: It was a fascinating piece. Tim Teeman, senior editor of the "Daily Beast." Thanks for your time.

TEEMAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, she has been called one of Bernie Sanders' key advisors. I'm talking about his wife, Jane. She will join me live hours before she is set to hold a huge rally in New York's Washington care park. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:36:05] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

When Bernie Sanders was first elected to Congress in 1990, she was his chief of staff. Today, she is one of his most trusted advisors and debate coaches. She is also his wife of 28 years-

JANE SANDERS, BERNIE SANDERS' WIFE: Twenty seven.

BALDWIN: Twenty seven. I was -- 27 years, 28 soon enough.

SANDERS: That's true.

BALDWIN: Jane Sanders joins me now.

It is so nice to meet you. Thank you for swinging by CNN.

SANDERS: Nice to be here.

BALDWIN: I cannot imagine what life is like right now for the two of you. And just on a more personal side getting into this. You know, I was reading -- people may not realize the two of you grew up 15 blocks from one another in Brooklyn.

SANDERS: We did.

BALDWIN: Had no idea.

SANDERS: No, no. We actually visited both old places that we grew up. And actually got into our old apartments over the last week, which was amazing.

BALDWIN: That's wild.

SANDERS: Yes. But we didn't know each other then.

BALDWIN: And then fast forward to time in Vermont.

SANDERS: Yes.

BALDWIN: You find out -- you hear, who is this Bernie Sanders, this person running to be mayor of Burlington. You even organize a debate for him having never met him. You meet him at victory party, which was the beginning of forever is a quote I read from you. What is the first date with Bernie Sanders like? I mean, over dinner is it talks of weather or Wall Street reform?

SANDERS: Well, actually the first time, at the victory party, he asked me to dance. And that was the end. I mean, it was like the beginning of everything.

BALDWIN: Good dancer?

SANDERS: Yes. Yes, he is. Nice, good slow dancer. So we had -- we just had a really nice time. We talked of course about the mayor's race and what he was going to do. So the next time was the actual date, was when we went to a dinner at a Mexican restaurant. And we did. We talked about what needed to be done in the city.

BALDWIN: You did?

SANDERS: Yes, we did.

BALDWIN: On substance immediately.

SANDERS: Yes.

BALDWIN: I had a feeling. That's why I wanted to ask. You know, recently in the headlines, we know that he has called and double downed on calling Hillary Clinton unqualified. I have talked to a lot of people. And whether you like or don't like Hillary Clinton, most folks say you can call her a lot of things, but given her resume, unqualified is not the word to choose.

SANDERS: But I think you are starting at the wrong point. Two days late early the campaign made it very clear that their strategy against Bernie was disqualify, defeat and worry about uniting if party later. And we watched surrogate after surrogate and the secretary herself being on air saying all the ways that he was unqualified without using that word.

BALDWIN: So it was response to the Clinton camp specifically in that word usage?

SANDERS: Specifically. Well, and what he tried to do was pivot. If we're going to talk about unqualified. Let's talk about unqualified how. Who is qualified? Who has the judgment to -- who in terms of the Iraq war, in terms of foreign affairs, in terms of trade, in terms of climate change?

BALDWIN: But all the years in the New York Senate and her years as secretary of state, did you ever have a moment with your husband where you said unqualified, maybe that wasn't the right word?

SANDERS: I think -- I know it was in reaction to them using disqualified, which means to make unqualified. So he used that term, but he pivoted immediately to the issues. And he talked about, you have to make your decision as to who is the best person for you, the person who defeats free trade and goes for fair trade? That type of thing.

BALDWIN: "New York Daily News" endorsed Hillary Clinton and they specifically cited, you know, your husband's interview, which has been criticized as beige for one of the reasons why when he was sitting with the editorial board last week. And I know later he gave specifics and reaction to a lot of critics for that. But did you, you know, did you have conversations with him that day about his vagueness whatsoever?

SANDERS: You know what is interesting, Brooke, is that I was in that interview listening.

BALDWIN: You were?

SANDERS: And it was a conversation. And when you see only words down, it doesn't quite give the flavor of it. When you say -- you don't say I don't know. You say, I don't know, you know, and go on. But he wasn't vague before or after. That was an hour-long interview. It was the fifth interview at I think 9:00 in the morning, that morning. And it was a very odd interview. We commented on that afterwards, that it was more of an inquisition, hurry, hurry, interrupt, let's ask the questions, don't let you even finish your answers. We didn't realize they were going to plant this transcript. So it became more evidence what they were trying to do.

[15:40:31] BALDWIN: What do you make of Donald Trump defending your husband over the Democratic system here?

SANDERS: I think he was using it as an example. I don't think he was defending Bernie, but he was saying look it's happening on both sides. You have to admit the way they are doing things in terms of super delegates and in terms of how delegates are put out there doesn't make a lot of sense to the average person. We understood those are the rules. We are playing by the rules. We're not complaining about it.

BALDWIN: So you are not saying, yes, it's rigged?

SANDERS: No. We're saying it's wrong.

BALDWIN: It's wrong?

SANDERS: We're saying it's not a democratic way to carry out an election. Here in New York people had to decide last October who they were going to support in this race.

BALDWIN: Independents can't --

SANDERS: Independents can't participate at all. I thought we were trying to reinvigorate our democracy. We are bringing a lot of new people into the party. And it's really too bad that they are shutting the door on them. So there are so many things that are wrong in terms of how they are carrying out -- you have seen so many voter irregularities. We just heard from the media on Monday that Denver had miscounted the results in ten precincts and that Bernie got two more delegates. But they didn't bother to tell us the week after the election. They found out. They called the Clinton campaign. They didn't bother the tell us. We heard from the media this week.

So, you know, so I understand his frustration. We are used to being non-establishment. We are used to not having them be really in our corner. So it's not a surprise. But it's something that should change. One person, one vote.

BALDWIN: We were just having a conversation about that. I think that's going to be something we chat about post November. But with regard to your husband, he is so out there. Obviously, very public. People know I feel like they have a sense of what he stands for. But what is the one thing, whether it is a misconception or something you wish we know about your husband? SANDERS: I wish you knew how effective he was as a legislator.

People say we don't think he has accomplished anything. He passed the most significant piece of legislation in the entire last Congress, the veteran's bill, the comprehensive Veterans bill, which was the most comprehensive veteran's bill done since the G.I. bill and won him the award from the highest award from the VFW and the American legion. That's only one of his latest accomplishments. He has been an incredibly effective CEO as mayor and legislator as congressman and senator. And nobody knows that because we are not talking about the issues. We are talking around the issues. We are talking process and polls all the time.

BALDWIN: But I do think to get both your husband and Hillary Clinton credit, I think for the most part it's been substantive on the Democratic side especially just watch him, the number of these debates.

SANDERS: Compared to that, yes. Absolutely.

BALDWIN: We also know that he was out with, you know, folks from Verizon today. I don't know if we have the sound byte, or if we want to play it. But you know, in fact, do we have the sound byte from the Verizon CEO?

SANDERS: I didn't see it yet.

BALDWIN: He called him essentially uninformed. Called your husband uninformed. How do you react to that?

SANDERS: Well, I think that is something that the establishment is trying to paint him as, unqualified, uninformed. He is well very informed. I have to say that the Democratic Party has two of the most brilliant people running for office. And I think Bernie certainly knows the issues about trade, about communications, about union rights. And you know, I can understand that the CEO disagrees. But he is not misinformed.

[15:45:10] BALDWIN: Two more questions. One being so we have our debate, the CNN debate in Brooklyn tomorrow night, not too far from where you are from. And then you all are hopping on a plane because senator Sanders has been invited to speak at the Vatican.

SANDERS: Yes.

BALDWIN: And then you are hopping back on a plane to be back in New York for the primary.

SANDERS: Yes.

BALDWIN: What will you be doing while you are in Rome.

SANDERS: Well, we'll sleep on the plane hopefully a little bit. And get there and he immediately goes into the conference.

BALDWIN: To speak? SANDERS: Yes. And the Vatican has asked him to speak as a world

leader about a moral economy. Now we know Pope Francis has been such leader on this. It's an honor that he could not possibly refuse. So he will be speaking there. And then there are some academics and other world leaders that will be talking about the subject with him. I think there will be three speakers. Much coming right home so that we can get going on Saturday and not miss really any time.

BALDWIN: Final question. If you close your eyes and you hear Larry David and you hear your husband, could you tell the difference?

SANDERS: I can tell the difference. I definitely can tell the difference. But Larry David is pretty amazing. He is funny.

BALDWIN: What's the difference? How can you tell?

SANDERS: I don't know. I do know my husband's voice, I have to say.

BALDWIN: OK. Jane Sanders, thank you so much. We'll see you in Brooklyn. Nice to meet you.

SANDERS: Nice to meet you as well.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:49:36] BALDWIN: As Republicans inch even closer to a contested convention, senator Ted Cruz is scooping of dozens of delegates committed to abandoning Donald Trump on the second ballot and vote for Cruz instead. Cruz campaign launched that massive push to get loyalists elect its delegates. Even states where Cruz lost like Arkansas.

So joining me now, Arkansas state senator Bart Hester who supported Marco Rubio.

Bart, nice to have you on.

BART HESTER, ARKANSAS LAWMAKER WHO SUPPORTED SAN. MARCO RUBIO: Hey, thanks for having me, Brooke.

[15:50:03] BALDWIN: I'm just curious, first out of the gate, have you heard from anyone from the Cruz campaign trying to woo you?

HESTER: Well, you know, I'm friends with the Cruz state chairman, state Representative Bob Ballinger and he is certainly working hard for the Cruz campaign and encouraged us to support Cruz and the national delegation.

BALDWIN: So as perhaps you would support Cruz, I'm curious if you have received, as we've been hearing reports, any threats from Trump supporters?

HESTER: I think there's threats in everything we do in politics. But you know right now, I'd like to be very clear that I still have a Marco Rubio sign in my yard and I'm Rubio to the end. Should it get down to those two guys and I'm going to be -- should I be an elected delegate there at the national convention, between the two, Trump and Cruz, I would be changing my vote to Cruz for sure.

BALDWIN: Is it a given, do you think, that if it goes to a contested convention and it goes to a second ballot, do you think that is when, you know, Ted Cruz really could come out on top?

HESTER: You know, for me looking at it, I can totally agree with that. I think Ted Cruz would come out on top. I think that's one thing that you've got to give it to the Cruz campaign. They have looked at the short game in reach get 1,237 delegates and they have been looking at the long game as far as a contested convention. I think that's something that we've seen that Trump was a little short- cited in assuming he would get 1,237 and I think it's going to be a heck of a convention.

BALDWIN: Final question, I know you say you have your Marco Rubio, you know, sign still in your front yard. We know that senator Rubio said in an interview with conservative commentator Mark Levine his quote was I hope they'll nominate a conservative. The only one, presidential candidate, that fits that criteria is Ted Cruz. What do you make of that? I don't even know if you want to call that a half- baked endorsement.

HESTER: Well, you know, I can tell you I have heard from the Rubio campaign and they just have encouraged me to try to elect level-headed people who can make good decisions should times get hectic at the national convention. That's their only requirement, level-headed people and that's what I intend to do.

BALDWIN: OK. Bart Hester in Arkansas, thank you so much.

HESTER: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up next, Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama appear to be friends in public, but a new book about America's first lady depicts a much rockier relationship behind closed doors. The author of that book joins me to reveal what she learned about what's happening behind the scenes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:56:53] BALDWIN: First lady Michelle Obama and former first lady Hillary Clinton appear quite friendly in public, but a new book "first women, the Grace and power of America's modern first ladies" depicts a different kind of relationship behind closed doors.

With me now, the author, Kate Andersen Brower.

It is so nice to have you back. Welcome back. Congratulations on the book. Buy let's begin with what's really getting this attention. You wrote the 2008 presidential campaign left deep and lasting scars on both the Clinton and Obama camps and they are still shockingly fresh. What does that mean?

KATE ANDERSEN BROWSER, AUTHOR, FIRST WOMEN: Well, I mean, you know, my sources told me that Michelle Obama really isn't political. She doesn't love campaigning. She is looking forward to leaving the White House. And Hillary Clinton is a very different person. You know, she obviously can't wait to get back into the White House. And what was said in 2008 in the primary was, you know, it was a very tough primary. A lot of nasty things happened and it's hard to forgive some of that. And you see that again and again with some first ladies, there's some bad blood between them. But the book is about the sorority of first ladies, the sisterhood that, you know, spans political party and spans generations.

BALDWIN: I want to get to that. Let me quickly read. This is a comment we have from the east wing. The White House claims made in the book are unequivocally false and poorly researched. They went on to seen photos taken over the course of eight years showing what appears to warm moments between these two women. How would you respond to that?

BROWSER: Well, I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't want to say publicly that they don't love each other, you know. I mean, I was told that Laura Bush and Michelle Obama have a closer relationship than Michelle Obama has with Hillary Clinton. I don't think that's something that the White House would want to publicly admit to so I'm not really surprised by that.

BALDWIN: In terms of the sisterhood and the stories, and you were talking about letters.

BROWSER: Yes.

BALDWIN: Tell me that one.

BROWSER: I mean, you know, the chief usher at the time who was friends with a lot of first ladies, Pat Nixon was very sick with lung cancer and so it was her 81st birthday. And he went to every former first lady, including Hillary Clinton, this was in the '90s, and asked them to write a letter to pat and just tell her what she had meant to them. And so I read through these wonderful letters that Barbara Bush said, you know, you don't get credit for all you did in the White House. And you know, if history is any judge, you know, you will be remembered fondly and we love you. And it was just a really moving thing. Hillary Clinton said some glowing things to pat Nixon that I think shows this crosses party lines. And you know, Hillary Clinton has really defended Pat Nixon in the White House and said, you know, you don't know to one of her aides who was being critical of Pat Nixon, she said you have no idea what pat did for this country as first lady. She was really victimized after Watergate, you know. So I think these are women who understand, you know, they are wives and mothers and they understand how tough this job is. There's no job like it on earth, you know. There's no job description.

BALDWIN: Can you imagine in that kind of spotlight in that kind of home, very few women on this planet can relate to that. BROWSER: Right. Hillary Clinton reached out to Jackie Kennedy for

advice on how to raise Chelsea in the White House because Jackie did such a great job, so they reach out to each other over the years. I think that's a beautiful thing.

BALDWIN: The book is "first women." You've also written a number of others. Thank you so much.

And thank you for being with me. "THE LEAD with Jake Tapper" starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Brooke.

Donald Trump going to battle. He's calling it the art of the steal.

"THE LEAD" starts right now.