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Awaiting Results of Wyoming GOP Convention; George Clooney Hosting Clinton Fundraiser Tonight; OSHA Investigates After Tiger Kills Zookeeper; Battle for New York; Pope Francis Visits Refugees in Greece. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 16, 2016 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:15] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to the CNN NEWSROOM. I am Pamela Brown in for Poppy Harlow. And we're coming to you live from New York at the site of next week's presidential primary, one that comes at a critical juncture in this campaign to say the least. And while all of the candidates certainly have New York on their minds, much of the action today is actually happening out of state, on the Republican side, Ted Cruz is looking for 14 state delegates at the GOP convention in Wyoming. As soon as we get those results of course, we'll bring them to you.

And of course this comes as Donald Trump doubles down on accusations that the RNC has rigged the delegate system against him. As for the Democrats, Hillary Clinton is in Los Angeles where she will attend a fund-raiser tonight, hosted by the actor, George Clooney. Some tickets went for six figures.

And Bernie Sanders also keeping up a hectic schedule, he'll hold an event in Brooklyn tonight, just hours after meeting with Pope Francis at the Vatican.

But I do want to begin out west where we are awaiting for those results of the Republican delegates in Wyoming. A contest that had Ted Cruz and Donald Trump lobbying attacks at one another today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: After he talked about New York values, and talked about it in such a disgusting way, who in New York would vote for this guy? And who in New York would vote for the other guy who is in favor of the NAFTA? So, you can't. So, I'm sorry, folks. You only got Trump. That's all you have. You have to have it, okay?

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now it is easy to talk about making America great again, you can even print that on a baseball cap. But the real question is, do you understand the principles and values that made America great in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN's Ana Cabrera is in Casper, Wyoming. So, Ana, we were supposed to have heard Wyoming results by now, it is certainly taking longer than expected. What's going on? ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you can imagine, they're

being extra careful because of the scrutiny the election process has received this cycle. We do know here there are more than 500 people who cast their ballots. These ballots in Wyoming are all hand counted. The results are tallied and then they're double checked and triple checked. And so, again, they're dinerized (ph), they're crossing their teeth. They want to make sure when they read out all of the results, they are 100 percent accurate. All that being said, the expectation is that Ted Cruz is going to walk away a big victor here today.

He comes into this leading already in the state delegate count. Some of the delegates were selected at county conventions that happened last month. Twelve delegates were elected there. He won nine of those delegates. Marco Rubio picked up one, because he was still in the game back then. And one was unpledged. So, Wyoming again is one of those states that could send unpledged delegates to the RNC. So, again, the election results expected now any minute. We will be bringing those to you as soon as we hear anything -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Ana Cabrera, thank you very much.

And joining me now, Joseph Borelli, co-chair for Donald Trump's New York campaign. Also with me, Steve Lonegan, the New Jersey state director for the Cruz campaign. Joe, I'm going to start with you. I mean, we heard Ted Cruz in Wyoming. Why isn't Donald Trump out there fighting for those delegates? Instead, he is in New York campaigning when he's far ahead in the polls.

JOSEPH BORELLI, CO-CHAIR, DONALD TRUMP NEW YORK CAMPAIGN: Right. You know, I think Ted Cruz was always favored to win Wyoming, and that's fine for him. But if we are talking about a big win in Ted Cruz in Wyoming today where there's 14 delegates I believe at stake, what's going to happen on Tuesday when Donald Trump wins the lion's share of 95 delegates that are at stake in New York and potentially parlays that into a huge win in the northeastern primaries that are on the ballot, going to ballot the following week.

BROWN: All right. All right. So, Steve, Donald Trump penned an op- ed for the Wall Street Journal, accusing the RNC of rigging the delegate system. And here's what he said. He also took aim at Ted Cruz, saying the great irony of this campaign is that the Washington cartel that Mr. Cruz rails against is the very group he is relying upon in his voter nullification scheme. What's your response to that?

STEVE LONEGAN, CRUZ CAMPAIGN NEW JERSEY STATE DIRECTOR: Finally from a guy who just pointed the premier Washington Insider lobbyist the full times, Paul Manafort to take over his campaign if it collapsed into turmoil. Donald Trump is coming out of two big weeks of losing, losing, losing. He got wiped out in Utah. That was a real vote. Ted Cruz got 69 percent of the vote. Then Ted Cruz took 18 out of 19 delegates in North Dakota. Swept Colorado, won in Wisconsin big time, and now we're going to sweep Wyoming today. Then we're going to come into New York State, and Donald Trump has to live up to his standard. He said he would going to sweep New York. Let's just hope Donald Trump, well, I don't know, let's just see if Donald Trump breaks 50 percent in New York on Tuesday. That can be very tough. If Donald Trump doesn't break 50 percent, he really needs to drop out. He has been losing for two-and-a-half weeks now.

[17:05:04] BORELLI: That's crazy. That's absurd. Donald Trump is right now according to the most recent polls winning 11 out of 27 Congressional districts at over 50 percent. I don't think there are any promises and guarantees that he would sweep New York. And if anything, you're seeing John Kasich and not Ted Cruz coming in second in some of these districts. Ted Cruz has been a virtual nonstarter for people in New York. Not just for the New York values comment. Beyond that, it is a drawback and it's Hurricane Sandy funding that really stick with the vote.

BROWN: Right. So, just given the fact that he is in some points, 40 points behind Steve, third place, given all he's talked about with these New York values, realistically, how do you think he's going to do come Tuesday?

LONEGAN: Everybody expects Donald Trump to win New York. But will he break that 50 percent number? That's a big issue for him. He said he would going to sweep the state. That is what Donald Trump said. If Ted Cruz comes in second or third, well, that's what we expect. That would be fine as a lot of the state's head. But I want to point out something. I was to Brooklyn Navy Yards with CNN last Thursday for this big bold debate between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. And it is a great opportunity for the Democratic voters to see what their candidate stood for. They stand on their issues.

I don't agree with the issues, but Democrats had an opportunity in New York and nationwide to see what the candidates stood for. Donald Trump will not debate Ted Cruz. He is denying Republican voters the opportunity to see what he stands for as a candidate, who he just cannot debate the issues of jobs, freedom and security that Ted Cruz is good on. Donald Trump is scared to death to go on the debate floor with Ted Cruz. There's another thing, Mondays, they were all going to file their tax appeals. As of now, tax appeals. As of now, Donald Trump is the only candidate in this race that is refusing to release his tax returns. Why is that? What is Donald Trump hiding? Why won't he debate Ted Cruz?

BROWN: So, Hillary Clinton, you pointed out a Democratic candidate, she's out in California instead of here before the New York primary. She talked about Donald Trump --

LONEGAN: Raising a ton of money, by the way.

BROWN: She talked about Donald Trump, took aim at him. If she is the nominee, Joe, do you think realistically Donald Trump can beat her? Because as we heard Reince Priebus say he thinks, you know, that Bernie Sanders would be a better opponent.

BORELLI: Well, perhaps. First I want to address the fact that Donald Trump is not scared to debate Ted Cruz. They've had a series of debates, including debates on this network. And that said, Donald Trump, his message is actually appealing to the majority of people in the state because he is talking about trade deals. Upstate, New York was decimated and potentially irrevocably damaged by trade deals like NAFTA. So, when you have a candidate coming into the southern tier of the very impoverished part of the state, speaking about issues, number one, like trade deals. Number two, like the Second Amendment, these issues play well up state, and it is not a surprise that Donald Trump is --

BROWN: And the RNC's Communication Director Sean Spicer responded to Trump's criticism about the rigged delegate system. Here is what he said this morning on "SMERCONISH." Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR: Shouldn't a candidate who arrives in Cleveland with the most wins, the most votes, the most delegates leave as your nominee?

SEAN SPICER, RNC COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR: Well, I think traditionally that's been the case. But again, that's like, you know, shouldn't the person who gets five out of six numbers win Powerball? No. The answer is the rules says, you need majority. You need 1237 delegates to win our nomination. A majority wins, not a plurality. This isn't horseshoes, Mike.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So, I mean, look, Donald Trump is making a fuss about the system now, he didn't early on, when presumably he knew the rules. Does he have a point?

BORELLI: Look, Sean is an intelligent guy, but even he has to see polls that indicate that 52 percent of Republicans and 57 percent of New York Republicans believe that whether it is Ted Cruz or Donald Trump, whoever goes to the convention with the most delegates ought to be the party's nominee. People have an expectation that their vote actually matters.

LONEGAN: Donald Trump has gotten 37 percent of the Republican vote to date. That means 63 percent of Republican rivalries have voted against Donald Trump. I have never seen any scenario where someone gets one-third of the vote and wins. This campaign is about gathering delegates, working hard to convince delegates that he is the best candidate, Ted Cruz is the best candidate. That's what the convention is about. This isn't some populous voting system, this is about delegates. This is about being at the convention, and see how these candidates stand up in the obstacle course that's create a deliberate to make it very difficult to become the nominee.

We want it to be difficult. What Trump supporters should be looking at is hey, look how hard Ted Cruz is working to win these delegates. This is what we need to beat Hillary Clinton. If Donald Trump can't outsmart Ted Cruz in the Republican primary and win these delegates, how he is going to beat Hillary Clinton and her billion dollar in spending.

BROWN: And that he doesn't have the ground game as Ted Cruz, how is he going to prevent a contested convention, Joe? LONEGAN: He has no ground.

BORELLI: So, let's again, if Wyoming is this big win for Ted Cruz, let's focus now on New York. So, right now he has a majority of the Republican county chairmen here in New York backing him. Those are the people that appoint the delegates who are going to go to these convention. So, to say that there's no ground game or the ground game is being flawed, I would concede that in some states the campaign could have done a better job, but going forward, I think you'll going to see a huge momentum shift over the next ten days.

[17:10:07] BROWN: All right. Joe Borelli, Steve Lonegan. Thank you very much.

LONEGAN: Thank you.

BROWN: And this Tuesday, it is a battle for New York as we were just talking about. The stakes could not be higher. It could all come down to this. The New York primaries, all day coverage Tuesday only on CNN.

And coming up, the Democratic race gets heated ahead of the New York primary. So, why is Hillary Clinton out in California? Details of her star-studded fund-raiser at George Clooney's house.

Plus, Bernie Sanders back in Brooklyn after jetting in from the Vatican. His impromptu meeting with the Pope.

And have you ever wondered what Donald Trump is like as a young boy? We track down his former classmates in Queens, New York. And here is why they say he was a bit of a troublemaker.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:14:15] BROWN: For the Democratic presidential candidates in New York is the biggest price yet, a whopping 247 delegates are up for grabs in the primary next Tuesday. And the latest "Wall Street Journal" Marist poll has Bernie Sanders trailing Hillary Clinton by 17 points in the state. Tonight, he will host a round table discussion in Brooklyn presumably on very little sleep after a whirlwind 36 hour trip to the Vatican where he met with the Pope. For her part, Hillary Clinton is out in California fund-raising with an event at George Clooney's house.

Joining me now, Nomi Konst, a Democratic strategist and Sanders supporter. And Maria Cardona, a Clinton supporter whose firm currently does works for a pro-Hillary Clinton Super PAC. And she's also one of those all-important super delegates.

Maria, first to you. So, there is been some criticism that Hillary Clinton that Hillary Clinton is not only not in New York this weekend ahead of the primary, but she's attending this fancy, high profile fund-raiser where some people have to pay six digits to get a ticket. What do you say to that, to that criticism?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, what I say is, let's look at what the money is for. Let's be very clear that that money is not going into her coffers.

NOMIKI KONST, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, that's not true. Some of it is going to the Clinton campaign.

CARDONA: As a candidate, she can only accept $2700 from individuals. So the rest of that money is going to raise money for the Democratic National Committee as well as 32 state party committees who are dedicated to ensuring that Democrats get elected to the House, to the Senate, to state legislatures, and frankly if I were Bernie Sanders and if I were really thinking that I'm going to get elected president. I would be more concerned and committed and dedicated to getting Democrats elected because there are no other socialists running. So, getting Democrats elected if I really want my political revolution to not be dead in the water when I get to the White House. So, he should actually be helping Democrats a little bit more.

BROWN: Hold that thought. Because one of the people hosting this fundraiser is George Clooney. And he spoke to "Meet The Press." Take a listen to what he said, and then get your reaction on the other end.

CARDONA: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, NBC HOST, MEET THE PRESS: Let me start with dinner you co-hosted on Friday night, big fund-raiser I know that you have planned for later tonight. Do you look at how much is being raised? And I think the cost of the final night dinner $353,000 a couple to be a co-chair, do you look at yourself and think that's an obscene amount of money?

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: Yes, I think it is an obscene amount of money. I think that, you know, we had some protesters last night when we pulled up in San Francisco. And they're right to protest. They're absolutely right. It is an obscene amount of money. The Sanders campaign when they talked about it is absolutely right. It is ridiculous that we should have this kind of money in politics. I agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Okay. So, Maria, does that contradict what you said before?

CARDONA: No, absolutely not. I completely agree with him. I think most Americans agree with him. Certainly most Democrats do. Hillary Clinton agrees with him. It is an obscene amount of money. But guess what, those are the rules that are in place. So let's do something about it. Let's get Democrats elected, let's make sure that we are able to put in a Supreme Court justice that is able to overturn Citizens United, let's get money out of politics, and let's focus on making sure that we underscore Democratic values and are out there being able to fight for middle class families and working class families, which is exactly what Hillary Clinton is doing, and by the way, it's working since she's winning at the moment.

BROWN: So, Nomi, I am going to bring you in. Because Maria say, look, this is the way it is. I mean, this is basically what you have to do in politics. Bernie Sanders has taken a different tact, but do you think in some ways he is at a disadvantage by not taking the path that Hillary Clinton is with this big fund-raisers?

KONST: Not at all actually. He has been able to raise record amounts of money. He's changed the way presidential politics has been run for the past 30 years. He has made it the people's party again. The Democratic Party used to be the people's party. And somewhere in the early '80s we decided to change course and in order to keep up with the Republicans, to have an arms race race with the Republicans, we started raising money and really selecting candidates that had name ID and the best ability to fundraise. And that's build an ecosystem in the establishment where people are invested in the business of fund- raising and the candidates and not as much as the ideas.

And so what Bernie Sanders has been able to do is say, you know what? We don't need to do that anymore. We have the internet, we have the power of the people. And we are going to collect these donations of $27. And he is doing that with Congressional candidates, too. He's already send out three Congressional fundraising emails for Lucy Flores in Nevada -- and they're raising record numbers of contributions at this point. So, there's a way of doing this outside of the typical way, and it is more honest.

Because if you're not going to take money from these Super PACs, if you are not going to take money from the lobbyists which the DNC just changed their rules to reflect Hillary Clinton's needs and Barack Obama and Joe Biden still won't take those, the lobbyist money for the DNC, if you're going to take that tainted money, there's obviously going to be some expectation for that. And even Barack Obama wrote about that in his own book.

[17:19:29] BROWN: All right. I want you both to react to something Bill Clinton said on the trail about Bernie Sanders' supporters. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON (D), 42ND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of the few things I really haven't enjoyed about this primary, I think it's fine that all these young students have been so enthusiastic for her opponent and sounds so good. Just shoot every third person on Wall Street and everything will be fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, Nomi, you can criticize Bill Clinton for a poor choice of words here. But what about the sentiment that Sanders support is fueled by plane up to villains without offering enough substantive solutions.

KONST: Well, it's not just sure. I mean, it is very easy to look up his tax policies and his financial policies. Over 360 economists have endorsed his tax plans and his plans. They're on his website. He talks about them ad nauseum in detail. And even in the "New York Daily News" interview which the Clintons like to use as in condemnation of the Bernie Sanders campaign, he even went in detail there. So much so that "The New York Times" fact checked it the next and said, the New York Daily News editorial board was wrong, they don't understand economic policy and they should retract it.

So, you know, this is something that unfortunately the message machine out of the Clintons, they have been trying to paint him as this guy as an idealist, but the reality is, he understands it, he sat on the board of countless institutions. He is the only Congressional member to have introduced financial reform bill, which was last year, in the Senate, and that's something that Democrats really want. I mean, what's going on is that the Democratic Party lost its way. We have become more about keeping up with the Republicans. And by the way, we are not winning. So, Maria says this money has been used to win. We are not winning Congress, we are not winning at the state level, at the legislators --

BROWN: Yes.

KONST: And we're not winning the Senate.

CARDONA: And we are certainly will not going to win the --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Let me ask you this. I want to get -- just kind of -- Nomi, let me talk Nomi.

KONST: That's not true.

BROWN: Kind of on the heels of what Nomi is saying, you know, Reince Priebus came out and said that Hillary Clinton would be easier to beat, basically he wants a GOP candidate to face Hillary Clinton instead of Bernie Sanders.

CARDONA: Yes.

BROWN: What is your response to that?

CARDONA: Oh my God! Of course he said that. I mean, it is so painfully obvious. It is like when I say I think Donald Trump is going to win and that he would be easy to beat because I think Democrats want to run against him more than anybody else. Why? Because we do think he would be easier to beat. The Republicans are salivating to run against Bernie Sanders because they're afraid of Hillary Clinton and they believe that he will be easy to beat, period. And in fact I think one of the reasons --

(CROSSTALK)

KONST: Republicans right now and she's not in the national polls.

CARDONA: Well, and you know why, Nomi? How many negative ads have the Republicans run against Bernie Sanders?

KONST: But here's the difference. CARDONA: One response. One response. She has lived through 30 years

of negative Republican ads and she is still beating him.

KONST: That means she's a bad candidate.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Okay. Wolf Blitzer said during the Democratic debate, if you both talk over each other, we can't hear what you're saying. And I'm really sorry. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But we have to move on. Nomiki Konst, Maria Cardona, the good news is, I am sure we will have you back on and continue this discussion. Thank you so much.

And by the way, we have a quick programming note, Bernie Sanders will be on CNN tomorrow morning on "State of the Union." Look for that at 9:00 a.m. Eastern.

And coming up on this Saturday. A tragic story out of Florida. A zookeeper attacked and killed by a rare kind of tiger. The investigation now under way into why the big cat attacked.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:26:54] BROWN: A Florida zookeeper was in her final days of her job when she was killed by a tiger she knew well. That is according to our Florida affiliate WPEC, it all happened Friday out of the public view at the Palm Beach Zoo which will be closed through the weekend.

Our Boris Sanchez is covering this tragic story. Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, what happens here is truly sad. We heard from a zoo official today who told us that the keeper knew that she was putting her life at risk but that she was doing it in order to help save these endangered animals. Now, we don't have a clear indication of what happened inside the enclosure before the zookeeper was attacked. But regardless, what happened here is truly heartbreaking.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ (voice-over): Tragedy at the Palm Beach Florida, zoo, after a rare Malayan tiger kills its lead handler. Officials say the attack happened in a contained area called the night house where the big cats are fed and sleep. Thirty eight year old Stacey Konwiser was preparing for a scheduled tiger talk and information or event for zoo visitors when something went wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was a tiger that was very familiar with Stacey, she was very familiar with this tiger.

SANCHEZ: The tiger was off exhibit and no visitors were ever threatened but the zoo was evacuated. Getting to the victim was not easy. West Palm Beach police say the animal was tranquilized and they had to wait for the drugs to take effect before reaching Konwiser who later died at a hospital.

STACEY KONWISER, ZOOKEEPER: My name is Stacey Konwiser, I'm the primary tiger keeper here, the Palm Beach Zoo and Conservation Society.

SANCHEZ: Officials at the zoo where her husband also works as a trainer said Konwiser had a lot of experience handling the tigers, and did not do anything unusual as she worked in the enclosure.

NAKI CARTER, PALM BEACH ZOOKEEPER: The love that they have for these animals, you don't get into this business without the love for these animals and understanding the danger that's involved even more.

SANCHEZ: Officials have not identified which of the four endangered tigers attacked Konwiser, but they say it is a 13-year-old male.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a powerful animal. And if they get a hold of you, there's nothing you can do to let them go, I don't care how strong you are or big you are.

SANCHEZ: Attacks by zoo animals in the U.S. are relatively rare. In 2007, a Siberian tiger named Tatiana escaped her open air enclosure at the San Francisco zoo and attacked three people. One, a 17-year-old boy, was killed, the tiger shot dead by police after the mauling. In 2003, the entertainers Siegfried and Roy were performing in Las Vegas with their white tiger Montecore. Halfway through the show, Montecore launched and bit Roy Horn on the neck, dragging him around in front of the horrified audience. Montecore was subdued, Horn survived the attack.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Now, we also have an update on the condition of the tiger that mauled Stacey from a zoo official. She tell us, the tiger is now recovering from having been tranquilized, but she would not reveal what the plans were for the tiger moving forward, she wouldn't go as far as even to say what the protocols were, the factors that guide the decision as to how to move forward -- Pamela.

BROWN: Boris Sanchez, thank you very much for that.

[17:30:02] And coming up on this Saturday, the RNC chairman admits that he would like the eventual Republican nominee to run against Hillary Clinton instead of Bernie Sanders. So what's behind that admission? We will discuss with our panel up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We are three days from crucial primaries in New York. And today Republicans have been hitting the trail across the nation. Senator Ted Cruz is in Wyoming where he hopes to sweep all 14 delegates today. Frontrunner Donald Trump and Governor John Kasich have been hitting the trail in New York, where they get could so be when it comes to the question of whether the GOP nominating process is rigged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am winning, leading with the delegates by a lot, but what's going on with delegates and what's going on with our party, we have to give the vote back to the people, folks, because its no good. It's all rigged. It's a rigged deal.

GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R-OH) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I don't think it is rigged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor -- but Governor if you get ...

KASICH: Let me ask you this, what was that show we have on TV, was that rigged? If somebody didn't get picked, did they jump up and say this is rigged? I don't think so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor, if you get to the convention in Cleveland and you only one Ohio, do you think there will be ...

KASICH: There will be no -- there's no if in there, there will be when. And listen, at the end of the day I think the Republican Party wants to pick somebody who actually can win in the fall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if you only won Ohio ...

KASICH: Can I finish? I am answering the question the way I want to answer it. You want to answer it? Here let me hold that here, here let me ask you, what do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you should answer the question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, I'm going to bring in our CNN political commentators Charles Blow and opinion writer for the "New York Times" and Tara Setmayer, a Republican strategist

Thank you both for coming on. Charles, first to you. We keep hearing discharge of rigged system from Donald Trump and then to some degree on the other side, where you hear Bernie Sanders say the Democratic process is stacked against him. Do you think bottom line the nominating process is fair?

[17:35:01] CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, fair? Meaning that they have rules and they about all know this from very beginning from become beyond race, absolutely. Do you think it is a small did Democratic in a sense that I think most Americans believed that it would be.

It's not exactly that small the Democratic. These are political organizations. They have the right to decide how they choose their own nominees. This is not -- these are not kind of voting apparatuses that are protected by the constitution like the general election is. This is how they choose to choose the nominee.

BROWN: There should be checks and balances. BLOW: Well, you can't, I mean but it is a private organization basically. You know, so it's not like you can say like this is part of the government. They're not actually. So you -- and so and the end.

BROWN: But some might they will that's the problem.

BLOW: Well it is a problem. I, you know, I recall about this take, I believe that the caucus system is really undemocratic. I believe that the superdelegate system is really undemocratic, particularly the fact that they're allowed to profess who they would support before any votes or even cast that's basically puts a thumb on the scale, let people know what the establishment they want. All of that becomes undemocratic to me. But I understand that this is the system that they have.

BROWN: So Tara, with that in mind. You say ...

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I agree, but this superdelegates, should they don't know what they're doing over there. But we don't have that, Republicans will have that.

BROWN: But you say, that you rhetoric about the system being rigged is like playing with fire. Why is that?

SETMAYER: Yeah, because, you know, these are, yes, political parties are not in the constitution, but the constitution did put checks and balances in when nominating the -- when a selecting the President of the United States for a reason, because they wanted to make sure that the best interest of the country, even the smaller states, were represented, that it wasn't just majority rule in everything, so you have direct primaries on a state and local level, and then you have the electoral college on the national level.

So there was some thought put into that and as much as they are selling policies didn't knowing policy is necessarily want political parties, it was human nature from cold factions to develop, because of differences in moral views.

So this is -- these are institutions that have been in place for since the founding of this country. And, you know, the caucus system started in a, you know, with town hall meetings and town meetings in New England, and colonial New England, and then it evolved into the caucus system that we see even now today from the 1820s.

So we start criticizing the system that has been in place, these institutions that have been in place for hundreds of years now. It starts to really start to question the whole foundation of our country and what we are doing. So that leads to anarchy. When you have this many people were looking at institutions that worked for the most part, in this country, in the great experiment that is United States. Now we're going after those very foundations.

I think that can lead to something dangerous. I think what Donald Trump is doing is going after the foundation of this country, all the way down to criticizing delegates who are citizens. A lot of delegates are citizen people, activists who are stakeholders in their democracy, in their parties. And he is criticizing their integrity. And I think that's unfair. Are there problems? Yes. Could we perform certain things? Sure.

But the state governments are the ones who ...

BROWN: All right.

SETMAYER: ... allow the parties to do the nominating process and that's under Article II of the constitution. So I mean it's very -- it's quite Democratic if you pay attention and learn the system.

BROWN: But for now, the process is the process, no way around it. Look past the primaries to general election, the RNC Chairman Reince Preibus that whoever the GOP nominee is, he would rather them run against Hillary Clinton than Bernie Sanders. Charles, why is that? Do you think he really means that?

BLOW: You won't forgive me if I take anything that Reince Priebus says about the Democratic with -- Mount Everest size great assault -- there's nothing ...

BROWN: You as you well.

BLOW: There's nothing that -- I, you know, there's calculations all what you might say about what the other party should do, and who you would like to see and all of that. So I mean I have to put that side and say that maybe he is telling the truth and maybe, just maybe he's being strategic.

BROWN: But Tara, who would you rather that the GOP -- eventual GOP candidate run against Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton?

SETMAYER: Well, depends who our nominee is. But I know why they said Hillary Clinton, because she's an awful candidate, she's flawed, she's high unfavorables and Bernie Sanders is an inspirational candidate. They see that.

So, it's very tough when you run against someone who has a certain message that makes people feel a certain way. People are inspired by you. They'll probably going vote for you, even though Bernie Sanders is a socialist, and I think once in a general election we have the opportunity to expose how outrageously crazy most of his ideas are, we would beat either of them, but Hillary Clinton, I think they're looking for to -- they'd rather do Hillary because her record is so awful.

BLOW: So you probably get excited?

BROWN: All right.

SETMAYER: No. I mean I'm getting this -- I mean that's the ...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Charles and Tara Setmayer, thank you very much for that. And coming up on this Saturday, Pope Francis visits the frontlines of Europe's migrant crisis. His emotional meeting with a young girl who collapsed at his feet and the remarkable decision he made before leaving that camp.

[17:40:09] You don't want to miss this. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well the pope finished an incredibly emotional trip to Greece today. He visited the island of Lesbos where he met with hundreds of refugees. And at one moment, a young girl was seen falling to her knees, appearing to pray at the pope's feet. We see here in this emotional video. The Pope telling refugees he met with, "You are not alone.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is in Rome where the pope arrived a few hours ago, and Ben he had some extra passengers with him. Is that right?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPODENT: Yeah, that's right. He announced while he was there he was Lesbos that we would bringing back 12 Syrian refugees. Now, there are three families, two from Damascus, one from Deir ez-Zor in Northern Syria, including six children. Now they were chosen by lottery Friday evening and although its announcement was made today, obviously they had to coordinate, the Vatican had to coordinate with Greece and with Italy to bring these families back.

So there was paperwork that had to be done, but it is a hugely symbolic move done by Pope Francis, at a time when many European countries are starting to slam the door shut to my grants and refugees from Syria, from Iraq, from elsewhere in the world.

[17:45:05] And of course his act of suddenly coming home with 12 refugees is a message to Europe that there's still room for people who are escaping wars and desperation in places like Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. Pamela?

BROWN: Yeah, certainly a powerful message there. And Bernie Sanders meantime gave a speech to the Vatican yesterday and he also had a short meeting with the Pope we understand. Has the Pope talked about that meeting?

WEDEMAN: Yes, this was a meeting we only heard about this evening when -- they rather this morning. Rome time when I spoke to Bernie Sanders, who announced he had in the very early hours of the morning met Pope Francis in the residence within the Vatican where Pope Francis lives and where Bernie Sanders, his wife and some of his staff had slept.

Now, when speaking to staff of the Sanders campaign, it seemed that it was Pope Francis who took the initiative to meet with Bernie Sanders, which was essentially basically in a hallway of the Casa Santa Marta, as it's called. However, the Pope when returning from Greece, he had a slightly different take on the event. Basically saying it was the meeting of two strangers in a hallway. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, CURRENT POPE OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (In Translation): It was manners. It is called manners, and not getting involved in politics. If anyone thinks that a greeting is getting involved in politics, then I recommend they look for a psychiatrist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEDEMAN: And nonetheless, it is well known here in Rome and certainly the Vatican that when it comes to things like climate change and economic justice that the Pope and Bernie Sanders do seem to see eye to eye. Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Ben Wedeman, thank you very much. We appreciate you staying up late for us there in Rome, Italy.

Meantime, Bernie Sanders tweeted moments ago about the Pope's actions writing, "Pope Francis's acts of love should inspire us as Americans and we should heed his call to welcome refugees with open arms".

And coming up, tracing Donald Trump's roots to the heart of Queens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: First of all, it's great to be home. This is home. It's great to be home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do how the people in his old neighborhood remember him? We went to find out.

But first, it is this week's CNN hero. A Georgia woman fighting to help refugees coming to the U.S. from war torn countries. She's teaching them life-saving goals and it all begins with a game of soccer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are so many things stacked against them. For you to be successful, you're competing against all these other people that are already like ten steps ahead of you. So how are you going to catch up, how are you going to stand out, and how are you going to contribute successfully? We're getting people from all over the world, from all different faiths to come together to do something great

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:58] BROWN: Breaking news, at the CNN Wyoming has just selected its delegates for the GOP convention 14 delegates who play apart and deciding who the Republican nominee will be, let's go straight to Ana Cabrera who is in Wyoming. Ana? ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pam, the Cruz camp is celebrating here. They just did a clean sweep of all of these delegates, the 14 that were elected here at the GOP state convention.

Now, that essential met expectations by all of the campaigns. We heard from the Kasich campaign, that they weren't expecting to pick up any delegates, but Trump campaign also didn't commit any resources to the state because they really didn't expect this to be a big win in their column. The Cruz campaign campaigned hard here. They had a Grassroots organization that they began to establish as far back as the fall. And they really did expect to come out with the majority, if not all, and of course they did come out with all of these delegates, 14 who were elected here today.

They also had 9 delegates from Wyoming that had been elected last month at the county convention. So, again, Ted Cruz picking up an additional 14 delegates to add to his column today. Pam?

BROWN: And you said that it's expected Ted Cruz would win. But was there any indication from people you spoke to that the fact Donald Trump was not there in Wyoming had an impact?

CABRERA: Well, some people said he wasn't here, you know. If you want to win, you have to show up. But Ted Cruz's campaign really did the ground work here and Trump didn't show what today to give his last-minute pitch, although Ted Cruz did. But Trump really felt that wouldn't have made the difference because they would have been too late to the party, so to speak.

Now, Trump did say today when he was campaigning in New York that they didn't want to waste resources in Wyoming, in part because of the delegate election process in this state. Remember, this is not a state that has an open primary or the national caucuses where people can vote, any old Joe off the street can come in and cast a ballot.

And so instead, the delegates are elected at the convention. That seems to have really benefited the Cruz campaign throughout the election cycle because they did their homework and were able to strategize how to best break through that system. This is a system that has been in place here in Wyoming, for example, for the past three, four decades. So it's not a new system but certainly we talked to Trump supporters, Pam, who said if it had been a primary process instead we may have seen a different result.

BROWN: And what do the Cruz supporters say? Did they agree with that?

CABRERA: Well, Cruz supporters say that this is kind of Ted Cruz country, that his conservative image really speaks to their values. And when he campaigned here today, giving his last-minute pitch before the convention, he spoke about gun rights. He talked about freedom, he talked about energy. This is a very coal mining, industrial town. And he talked about bring those coal mining jobs back to the U.S., back to Wyoming, and brining in the EPA. And so a lot of what he is saying is resonating with the voters and the Grassroots supporters of Wyoming, Pam. [17:55:08] BROWN: All right, Ana Cabrera, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there.

And coming up, tonight's "Number" and how its bringing joy to a familiar face right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. Finally to tonight's "Number" one that's near and dear to our hearts, 8 1/2 pounds. You know what I'm talking about? That's the weight of my good friend and CNN anchor Poppy Harlow's beautify baby girl, Sienna. Take a look at these pictures and she looks anchor ready, amazingly, right after giving birth. You would normally see Poppy right here at this hour, but last Sunday Poppy and her husband Sinisa, welcomed their little baby girl Sienna.

And get this, if you know Poppy, you won't be surprised that Sienna arrived promptly on her due date, worth noting, only about 1 in 20 babies are born on their actual due dates. So, a big congratulations to the whole family. Amazing. Such a beautiful family there.

And coming up next on CNN, it's "SMERCONISH" at 6:00 followed by special encore presentations of the CNN town halls, the GOP candidates and their families, it's the Kasichs at 7:00, the Trumps at 8:00, the Cruz's at 9:00.

[18:00:04] I'm Pamela Brown filling in for Poppy, Ill be back next weekend filling in for her after she enjoys a much be good at maternity leave with her new baby girl Sienna.