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Coverage Of Hostage Situation In Dhaka, Bengladesh, Aired 3:30- 4p ET

Aired July 01, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Trying to negotiate with these gunmen inside. No word on how successful that has been.

Let's go to Ivan Watson, our senior international correspondent who has been covering some of the violence in recent years in Bangladesh.

Before we get to that, Ivan, tell me, do we know anything more about what's happening there on the ground?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We have been hearing from eyewitnesses on the scene there. They say that they haven't heard gunfire in some time. You know, we have spoken with an assistant deputy police commissioner who described one of his police officers killed by gunfire. And that deputy police commissioner said he himself had been wounded by gunfire. Again, no direct claim of what these people want who are holding the hostages. The cafe owner saying that he thinks there are possibly 20 hostages in that cafe and between six to eight gunmen. So a very fluid situation right now. Very tense. And we are trying - we will bring you up-to-date with the latest when we get it -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: What do we know about violence in this part of the world specifically in the recent years and potentially terrorism?

WATSON: This is very important context in this fluid situation, Brooke. CNN has been reporting over the course of the past year on this very grizzly phenomenon of machete murder, targeted machete murders, carried out, but two apparently competing groups claiming to be acting on the behalf of, on the one hand, ISIS, on the other than hand, Al-Qaeda. And they have been attacking everybody from atheist bloggers and Seculars writers and publishers, to LBGT activists, members of non-Muslim religious minorities to an Italian aid worker last year, and a Japanese businessman last year.

Again with claims responsibility coming from groups claiming to be ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Last April after two LBGT activists one of whom worked for the U.S. embassy were murdered in a just terrifying apartment invasion, house invasion. The U.S. ambassador to Bangladesh sounded basically awake up call, a warning call saying that the embassy had tracked in April 35 similar attack over a period of 14 months. And she said that 25 of those attacks had been claimed by terrorist organizations.

Now, the Bangladeshi government insists that this is not the work of foreign extremists groups. It has been blaming these attacks on the main opposition political party in the country, accusations that have been denied by that party. But in June the government went on the offensive. It rounded up, get this, more than 14,000 suspects across the country in a mass sweep. Some of that was criticized for just being too wide and for being a political witch hunt. But that gives you a sense of the growing violence and the growing political particularization in the country.

The terror, the fear has prompted some of these secular and atheist writers to flee the country by the dozens. I have been to Germany to interview people who have fled over the course of the past six months because of this growing atmosphere of violence in the country.

We don't know who is carrying out this attack thus far, Brooke. If it is in fact jihadi inspired it would mark a dramatic turn in the tactics by extremists in this majority Muslim country that is ruled a nominally secular constitution -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Ivan Watson, thank you so much.

I want to take you now to the Pentagon to our correspondent there, Barbara Starr, who can also give a little bit of context since we are talking about, you know, terrorism for those who are pledging allegiance to whether it's ISIS or Al-Qaeda in Bangladesh.

Barbara, what did the state department do just yesterday?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is pretty amazing, Brooke. It was just yesterday that the statement department declared Al-Qaeda in the Indian subcontinent, that is the name they are using, AQIS, Al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent, a foreign terror organization.

This happened just yesterday. This means that they have identified some people they believe associated with that group and their operations. They believe, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, a group associated with the Al-Qaeda leader, Ayman Al-Zawari (ph). The designation by the state department now of course prohibits U.S. persons from doing any business with any elements of this so-called AQIS organization.

Some of the things they believe Al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent has been responsible for. Let me just tick off a couple of them. 2014 attack on a naval shipyard in (INAUDIBLE). You may remember militants tried to hijack a Pakistan any naval ship. They also claimed responsibility for some of what Ivan was just talking about. The murders of activists, secular writers, bloggers in the region, including in Bangladesh.

Let's stop for a moment and say it again. We do not know who is responsible for this unfolding situation in Bangladesh at this hour. But it certainly gets attention because of this Al-Qaeda organization and because of the sense that U.S. intelligent services and Asian as well as European intelligence have that ISIS and Al-Qaeda elements have taken hold throughout south Asia and in Bangladesh as well.

If it does prove to be ISIS, it shows part of what the U.S. is really dealing with, a networked global organization. This is what we heard so often in all of these cities around the world about this ISIS network. Again, we don't really know in Bangladesh yet, but there is an ISIS-Al-Qaeda element in this region.

Network, people who are inspired. They may not be directed. They get together, they plan, they plot. And what they are achieving in so many of these places is in fact their goal, terror and death. We heard from intelligence services across the world, ISIS needs to be viewed at a death cult. People join to it carry out attacks to kill as many as they can and to kill themselves. So a lot of concern that this is an area of the world where so many of the attacks that have been seen that many of the poor, less affluent nations, less affluent security services in the region are really struggling to deal with -- Brooke.

[15:37:02] BALDWIN: All right. Barbara Starr, thank you very much at the Pentagon.

And while talk about the timing AQIS just designated terror organization yesterday by the state department. Thank you for that.

Haroon Moghul is joining me now. Moghul can talk a little more about geo-politics and potential, you know, terrorism within this country, whether or not it's actually directed from ISIS headquarters or Al- Qaeda headquarters or not.

Haroon, what can you add to this conversation?

HAROON MOGHUL, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR GLOBAL POLICY: You know, Bangladesh is a country a lot of people don't know about. It's one of the largest Muslim countries in the world. It has a history of democratic world. It has been democracy for a very long time where the history of secularism as well. But you know, as previous guest has pointed out, there has been unfortunately a lot of political polarization. And this is the classic pattern of jihadi and extremist groups. They seek out political tensions. They seek out divisions. They exploit them. And it is very possible that this is the work of an international terrorist group. That their goal is very much to inflame and exploit these tension to make them worse and to create a situation in which the society is to polarized to respond effectively.

BALDWIN: Haroon, do you - how well do you know Bangladesh or Dhaka specifically?

MOGHUL: Well, you know, I did my research, my academic work. It was also my personal doc from South Asia. And so, I focused on the birth Muslim nationalism in South Asia which includes, you know, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh and the history of these countries where religion has been a very contention topic. It has been a matter of identities, secular identity, religious identity. And in all place like Bangladesh very much like in Pakistan, what you're seeing is basically a contest over what it means to be Muslim. Is it who you are ethnically or is it who you are religiously or is it who you are culturally? And unfortunately when democratic governments fails to deliver on what people are looking for, when secular leaders fail to deliver what they're looking for then you get the rise of extremism. And sometimes it is kind of political polarization, it just increases to a point where the main political facts in the society, the main players are so busy attacking each other that they are not paying attention to the proliferation of these smaller, but far more dangerous extremists groups. And sometimes groups like ISIS and Al- Qaeda take advantage of precisely that. They look for those gaps as crack they can exploit and they punch in and they do something like we are seeing right now unfolding in Dhaka.

BALDWIN: You know, I don't have to remind you, but we are reminding everyone here watching, we are in the final days of Ramadan. And you know, I'm standing here in front of this airport here in Istanbul, Turkey where, you know, hearing guidance with regard to the triple suicide bombing the other day that yes, in fact, this was directed specifically to land during Ramadan. And I know that there have been calls by these terrors organizations, by ISIS specifically, to exploit this time of the year. Why?

MOGHUL: I was in Istanbul on Monday actually. I flew out back to New York City. I'm going to be there again in the airport next Saturday. This hits pretty close to home. My family is from South Asia. The best thing I can tell you or maybe the closest image I can find is that like someone took the pieces of religion and created a Frankenstein out of it.

Ramadan, especially the last ten days of Ramadan, are the most sacred time of the most of the year. It is supposed to be time for prayer and people are making it into time of murder and mayhem. It's like someone is taking something dear do you and using it as a vehicle for terror and extremism. It is extremely frustrating. It is extremely scary. And it is galvanizing people. The unfortunate fact, though, is the small numbers of people can cause a lot of harm because they intend to and they use bloody violence. We saw earlier today a Hindu priest hacked to death. This is a cancer within many Muslim communities that people are trying to fight. But unfortunately, a lot of these communities are poor and they are polarized, don't have the resources. And when things like these happen, they set us all back.

[15:40:00] BALDWIN: Haroon Moghul, thank you so much.

Quick break. We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:15] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin live here in Istanbul, Turkey.

I want to just bring my next guest right in. He is Ambassador James Jeffrey, former U.S. ambassador to both Iraq and Turkey.

So Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being with me. I want to talk you obviously the two topics, the first being the breaking story that is going hostage siege in Dhaka, Bangladesh. And my question is this. From all the conversations I have been having, the uptick in violence especially with these machete murders in this part of the world for the last two years, you know, the facts that we have now learned that Al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent, AQIS, was just designated a terror organization yesterday by the state department. Yet, it seems to me the government in Bangladesh dismissive of this rise in terrorism.

JAMES JEFFREY. FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY AND IRAQ: You're absolutely right. We have seen this including in Turkey where the ISIS threat was ignored and played down for the longest time until the series of attacks culminating in Istanbul. We see it in Bangladesh. First individual groups rather like Orlando, rather like San Bernardino. Now we see organized groups using military tactics taking out a large number of hostages and this is an example again, and, again, manifesting itself throughout the Middle East and elsewhere that people deny they teat in the amidst.

BALDWIN: Again, I feel like I have to keep having to add this caveat as we talk about this ongoing situation in Dhaka. We don't know who these six to eight gunmen are whether they are, you know, part of some sort of terrorist cell, whether it's Al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent or ISIS or who knows what.

But that said let's pivot to what's happening here in Istanbul being the former U.S. ambassador to Turkey. Now that we learned what these sort of, you know, eventual suicide bombers were living (INAUDIBLE) this neighborhood just about a half hour from where I am and where you know very well here in Istanbul. Has Turkey done enough in fighting the rise of terrorism here?

JEFFREY: Turkey is facing two terrorist threats from ISIS, also from the Kurdish, Turkish and surging group, the PKK. Truce was broken by both sides about a year ago and has resulted in very heavy casualties. And thirdly the Assad regime to the south in Damascus which has launch attacks across the border and is another security threat for Turkey. So turkey has a lot of different things that disburse its resources. Nonetheless, it didn't do enough against ISIS. I think that will change now after this iconic symbol of Turkey success. The Istanbul airport has been attacked, but it's a dollar late.

BALDWIN: The fact though, Mr. Ambassador, and I have covered a number of these, you know, terror attacks or mass shootings, you know, what is so striking about this one here at the airport is the majority of victims are Muslim. And this is -- I just heard the called evening prayer here at the mosque outside of the airport. You know, these are the final days of Ramadan, so why?

JEFFREY: Isis in particular and we are now essentially certain that the Istanbul attack was not only ISIS inspired, but was actually planned and launched by ISIS leaders in Raqqah and Syria. ISIS devotes much of its hatred to other Muslim groups. All of Shia Islam, the second grade division of Islam besides Sunni Islam, are considered heretics and are targets in Iraq and elsewhere. But also the regime such as the Turkish regime which have been active, not as active as we would like, but still active in the fight against ISIS supporting the United States, allowing U.S. troops and U.S. aircrafts to operate out of Southern Turkey against ISIS. As far as ISIS is concerned, Turkey is the enemy just like everybody else. They do not discriminate between Muslims and non-Muslims. It is either their people or everybody else.

BALDWIN: How do you see the role of Turkey playing out in the U.S.- led coalition that this war that is being waged both in neighboring Syria and in Iraq?

JEFFREY: What we have too it recognize from Istanbul that there is no way you can successfully defend against these attacks. Istanbul is one of the most hardened public sights you can have in the world. That's why the airport was up and operating within hours. But there is always groups of people gathered around anything and those people can become targets. Ultimately, to end these things, you have to take down the Islamic state in Iraq and Syria. We are doing that. We need to do it a lot faster. It has been two years now. They still holding on to much of their territory. And Turkey can help, but the United States is going to have to do more as well. We have about literally one percent of our military forces devoted to this.

BALDWIN: It is striking image in the airport here in Istanbul. How just flying in a couple nights ago, the blood, the shattered glass, and in a day gone and it is back hope.

Former ambassador James Jeffrey, thank you so much. Mr. Ambassador, I really appreciate your time tonight.

When we come back, we will pivot back to this ongoing situation in Dhaka, Bangladesh. And we will talk to that American who is not too far away, who have heard those gunshots, ringing out in the streets in Dhaka just about an hour ago. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:06] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: I'm Brooke Baldwin here tonight in Istanbul, Turkey. But all of our focus at the moment is on this ongoing hostage situation in Dhaka, in Bangladesh. We now can tell you according to the site intelligence group that ISIS has claimed responsibility for what has been happening for the better part of the last two hours. Again, not a lot of information at this point in time.

According to the owner who was able to escape some time telling CNN that there are 20 to 30 hostages inside of this restaurant, including a number of foreigners, and six to eight gunmen. And according to this American who lives or who is visiting nearby, the last time they heard any sort gunshots was some time ago.

I have Tom Fuentes standing by, CNN law enforcement analyst and also former assistant director for the FBI.

Tom Fuentes, we also know two members of law enforcement who respondent, two police officers have been killed, shot and killed. Your response to all of this?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think, Brooke, we expected the announcement that ISIS would take credit for this, and that it probably was ISIS. We thought that from the beginning. But the problem here, and you know, what really worries us, is that knowing it is ISIS, there won't be any effective negotiation. The people that are holding hostages want to die. They want the hostages to die. They want the law enforcement officers that come try to free the hostages to die. And in the process, they want maximum worldwide prime time television coverage when all this unfolds. And that is the sad part of this.

Right now in Bangladesh it has been very unstable the last couple of years because we have the growth of ISIS. And three or four Al-Qaeda affiliated groups. But now we see ISIS trying to assert itself.

BALDWIN: Tom Fuentes, stay with me. I want to bring Peter Bergen in.

Peter Bergen, again, site intelligence group saying that ISIS is in fact claiming responsibility, knowing what happened here with the triple suicide bombing here in Istanbul a couple of nights ago, 43 people murdered. And now to know this is ISIS, 20 to 30 innocent lives inside of this restaurant, the concern is high.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. Unfortunately, you know, this is circle of (INAUDIBLE) attack which we saw and all of us saw in Mumbai in 2008 where you know 166 people were killed by ten gunmen who went in knowing they would fight to the death. (INAUDIBLE) meaning the people who would sacrifice themselves, this is really one of these kinds of attacks it seems. The gunmen went in knowing they will die. They will try, as Tom said, to take out as many police officers as possible. They will try to prolong this to get as much coverage on networks like CNN as possible. They will kill all of the hostages almost certainly.

We saw this unfortunately play out in Paris. We saw it, you know, has played out in many other places. It is part of the ISIS' Ramadan offensive for they call for this consul attacks and you are standing in a city where one of them happened. Unfortunately we are seeing another one play out today.

BALDWIN: Peter, thank you.

Tom Fuentes, just bringing you back in. And for folks who are just sort of tuning in and wondering what is going on in Dhaka. Just lay of the land, this is a restaurant, I understand it is a popular. It was described to as the posh restaurant in the part of town where you have a lot of diplomats, a lot of expats, a number of foreigners inside of this restaurant. And we have now just got word, CNN has confirmed that 40 people have been injured. That is all I have, 40 people have been injured.

You know, to your point a moment ago about, you know, any attempt to negotiate with terrorists is futile. What can these SWAT teams do tactically speaking?

FUENTES: Tactically, all they can do is try to find the safest possible approach and hope that they can go in and if they are lucky kill as many hostage takers as they can with not all of the hostages being killed. That is toll order. It will be very difficult. I'm sure they are studying the layout of the restaurant where these guys are. The outdoor courtyard, all aspects of that. But it will be a very, very difficult assignment for them.

BALDWIN: Tom, thank you so much. Standby.

I'm Brooke Baldwin live in Istanbul, Turkey. We're going to continue watching this breaking situation in Dhaka with my colleague Jim Sciutto.

CNN special live coverage continues right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.