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Kanye West At Trump Tower; Exxon CEO Nominated for Secretary of State; Trump Delays News Conference; Electors Want Intel Briefing; Behind the Scenes Covering Trump Campaign. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 13, 2016 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he could be secretary of sanity. I know that seems like a far cry, the idea of Kanye West for secretary of sanity, but, you know, these concepts are now relative and very -- very fungible -- very fungible in a Trump administration.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: That means everyone better hurry up and get her.

No, seriously, Mr. Trump is talking to a variety of people so that he can like come up with ideas to unify the nation and maybe Kanye West can help him within the African-American community. You don't know.

KOHN: Maybe. But, look, there's a larger issue here. The larger issue is of people choosing to legitimize President Trump. And, you know, Trump -- trust isn't something you just get defacto. Trust is something you earn. And President Trump who -- President-elect Trump, who we should note, yes, has won the Electoral College, but lost the popular vote by a more significant margin than, I mean, ever, right? I mean, in other words, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by a greater margin than most presidents in recent history. So his credibility is already questioned. Now we have the issue of the Russian hacking. This -- none of this --

COSTELLO: Well, I think -- I think --

KOHN: No, no, but I mean, none of this --

COSTELLO: Come on, by Democrats.

KOHN: The point of this -- none of this looks good and he hasn't made a single overture to say, look, I'm going to try to govern for all people, unlike Barack Obama who, at this point in his -- in his president-electness has a 71 percent approval rating. Trump has a 40 percent approval rating. Democrats and Republicans are worried that he has appointed far right conservative autocratic business leaders instead of looking to represent the broad interests of the American people.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Jeffrey Lord has arrived and --

KOHN: Oh, goody.

COSTELLO: Jeffrey, I have you, if you're there. You are. You're laughing.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Merry Christmas.

COSTELLO: Merry Christmas. So, maybe you heard part of what Sally said. We were just --

LORD: I did.

COSTELLO: We were just talking about Kanye West coming into Trump Tower to talk to Mr. Trump and wondering why, why, why?

LORD: He's going to be the new secretary of state or -- or maybe I've got that wrong.

COSTELLO: No, that's Rex Tillerson.

KOHN: Yes, if only it were Kanye.

LORD: Oh -- oh.

KOHN: If only.

LORD: Got it. Got it.

Well, listen, contrary to my friend Sally, I think he's done a great deal. I mean he's talking to everybody from, as she puts it, the far right autocrats or whatever to Al Gore. I mean talk about a unifying scheme in things. He's talking to everybody. This is the Donald Trump I know. I mean he's more than happy to talk to people. Heavens, Mitt Romney said all sorts of terrible things about him and he's been extraordinarily kind to Mitt Romney. This is -- this is a good thing in a president. Among that --

KOHN: He --

COSTELLO: Let's talk about -- no, no, I want to talk about Mitt Romney for just a second because Rex Tillerson is Mr. Trump's pick for secretary of state.

LORD: Yes.

COSTELLO: Mitt Romney just sort of fell off the map. And I'm wondering how you go, Jeffrey, from seriously considering Mitt Romney to Rex Tillerson, a man with no military or diplomatic experience?

LORD: Well, I think he's got -- got the kind of experience in the business world here in terms of diplomacy around the world, in terms of his company. But I -- I think the Mitt Romney thing was genuine. I mean I -- I personally was not thrilled with it because I thought Mitt Romney was way over the top about Donald Trump during the election. And as a former Republican presidential nominee, I just -- you know, that's sort of -- was gob smacking to me.

But, nonetheless, he was very kind to Mitt Romney. I think He was genuinely under consideration. He's gone with Mr. Tillerson, who's getting recommendations and kudos from Condi Rice and Jim Baker, among others. Hardly -- hardly, you know, a bunch of right wing nuts. So I -- it's just that he's not been in the public eye. That's really all that's going on here. He's not been a member of the -- or a visible member, if you will, of the political class.

COSTELLO: So -- so you think that Donald Trump was at one time very serious about Mitt Romney because sometimes I wonder if he really was very serious about Mitt Romney or -- or he's just doing it as an olive branch.

LORD: No, I --

KOHN: My understanding from people --

LORD: No.

KOHN: Who are close to -- close to Trump is that actually it was all for show. And let's be clear, he made -- Jeffrey's right, he's meeting with people but he's not actually putting them into positions of power. The people he's putting into positions of power are, you know, are billionaires and executives and far right ideologues.

LORD: Well, Sally, let me ask you how many -- how many --

KOHN: That's who he's actually putting into power. And let's be clear --

LORD: Sally --

KOHN: His promise -- his promise to the American people was to drain the swamp. He is gilding the swamp. He's installing Wall Street in Washington and it's --

LORD: Sally --

KOHN: And it's upsetting to -- I mean he has -- listen, he has an Exxon executive with close ties to Russia, with business interests, billions of dollars in business interests in Russia and zero foreign policy experience at an incredibly precipitous and dangerous time for the world. I can't imagine anyone think that's -- think that's a good idea.

LORD: Sally --

KOHN: But Donald Trump doesn't care. He cares what's good for business, because that's his primary interest.

COSTELLO: OK, go ahead, Jeffrey. Go ahead, Jeffrey.

LORD: Sally -- yes, yes, number one, Sally, I don't know how many conservatives Barack Obama put in his cabinet. I mean they were -- a lot of them were far left wingers from a conservative point of view. So, I mean, what can I tell you.

[09:35:01] KOHN: Actually not true.

LORD: Barack Obama won the election. He has the right to put whomever he wanted in there. He, you know, campaigned on one America, red, white, and blue and all that sort of thing and then proceed to, you know, steer the government incredibly left.

Number --

KOHN: Actually, he put a number of Republicans in his cabinet and, for instance, kept Robert Gates, who was Bush's --

LORD: No. No, he put no conservatives -- he put no conservatives in his cabinet, I can tell you.

COSTELLO: Bob Gates?

LORD: Well, all right, point taken, one.

COSTELLO: Oh!

KOHN: OK, good. (INAUDIBLE) concede.

LORD: Carol, that was very good.

COSTELLO: (INAUDIBLE) --

KOHN: I mean, you know, but, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey, forgive me, don't let facts get in the way of your point. Go ahead, please.

LORD: Listen --

COSTELLO: No, no, but Jeffrey could also bring up Rick Perry, right? Rick Perry was not a strong supporter of Donald Trump, said some very nasty things about him and now he's like tops on the list for energy secretary.

LORD: Yes, I mean, Nikki Haley is in the cabinet, I mean, as the U.N. ambassador. So I mean the point is, he is going to govern the way he said he intended to govern, that he's going to bring people together. I mean this is a good thing, not a bad thing. People are -- people like Sally, my friend Sally, are not going to agree. I get that. But we had the election. Here in Pennsylvania, he won.

KOHN: Yes. And I'm going to do exactly what Republicans would do.

LORD: Three hundred and six electoral votes. That's it. It's over.

KOHN: So, let's be clear, people like my friend Jeffrey hammered Hillary Clinton for not giving press conferences when she was just a candidate. He's now president-elect and he not only hasn't given a press conference in, what is it, 139 days, but he's delaying for a month the one he promised to give.

You know, I -- I'm pretty confident that if a president-elect Hillary Clinton said she wasn't going to take intelligence briefings, I mean, the thunder of Republican objection and outrage would be deafening. In fact, it was Donald Trump --

LORD: Sally -- Sally, that's just not so. KOHN: It was Donald Trump in 2014 who bashed President Obama for rumors, rumors that he wasn't fully reading the briefings. But -- but, you know, Donald Trump's really smart, so it's OK, right?

LORD: Sally -- Sally -- Sally, look, there is no sense (ph) president --

KOHN: No, defend it, please.

LORD: Presidents, as former CIA Director James Woolsey has said, presidents take these briefings in different fashions. President Clinton did not do them --

KOHN: Yes, but they take them, Jeffrey.

LORD: President Clinton did not do them in person. He read them and there's no point in having this exact same information told to you --

KOHN: He still took -- Jeffrey, he still took the information on a daily basis. Do you understand? What your president is saying is --

LORD: Sally --

KOHN: He's not even going to take the information.

COSTELLO: You know what, let -- let Jeffrey finish.

LORD: Sally, if I am going to tell you that the sun is hot, do I need to tell you tomorrow? Or the next day? Or the next day? Or the next day?

KOHN: Again, the glibness -- this, again, this is only -- only Trump -- literally, only in Trump's world, the glibness with which you are taking -- you're supposed to be the party that's strong on national security. You're supposed to be the party that's tough on these things. It was the Republicans who bashed President Obama for not being tough enough on Putin when he invaded Ukraine. But now it's an asset to want to be best friends with him.

LORD: Sally, I am going to enjoy the next four years as much as you enjoyed the last eight.

COSTELLO: OK, I got to -- I got to end it there.

KOHN: Come on.

COSTELLO: On this sterling example of how our country is coming together.

Sally Kohn, Jeffrey Lord, many thanks.

LORD: Merry Christmas, Carol.

COSTELLO: Merry Christmas.

KOHN: Merry Christmas, Jeffrey. COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the long shot plan to block Donald Trump from ever taking office. What a slew of Electoral College members are now demanding.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:41] COSTELLO: In just six days, the 538 electors who make up the Electoral College will cast their vote for president of the United States. Donald Trump does not become president until those votes are made official. But there's a new twist that might throw a wrench into things. At least that's what some are hoping. Twenty-nine of those electors are calling on the National Intelligence director, James Clapper, to brief them on Russia's involvement in the 2016 election. Their goal, glean enough information to persuade at least 37 Republican electors to turn on Trump, which, if successful, would turn the election over to the House of Representatives. Of those 19 electors, there is a lone Republican, Texas paramedic Chris Suprun. Chris is live with me now.

Welcome.

CHRIS SUPRUN, ELECTORAL COLLEGE MEMBER FROM TEXAS: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

So you guys wrote an open letter to Clapper. Did you get a response?

SUPRUN: I have not heard anything yet, but I am hopeful.

COSTELLO: And what exactly do you want from him?

SUPRUN: Well, I think we deserve to know what Russia's involvement may have been, what was the basis of "The Washington Post" story about how far Russia's intervened and intruded in our election system. It seems from "The Washington Post" story it wasn't simply to undermine the election itself, but, in fact, to pick a favorite.

COSTELLO: Hillary Clinton's campaign director is going one step farther. It's demanding that Trump prove that Mr. Trump did not collaborate with Russia during the campaign. Is that also info you might welcome?

SUPRUN: Well, I wouldn't welcome it. I hadn't heard that news. I'm not sure I'm ready to take that step where Mr. Trump was involved with Russia. I'm simply concerned Russia was involved with our election when they shouldn't be. I'm not prepared to make accusations against another U.S. citizen without further evidence. But the director of National Intelligence can provide us whatever declassified facts he has and we can look at them and go from there.

COSTELLO: Do you believe that Russia tilted the election toward Trump?

SUPRUN: Well, I guess that's really the question, isn't it? We don't know. And that's why I'm looking for a fact-based intelligence agency. When the report came out, I was a little bit disappointed that Mr. Trump's first reaction was to defend Russia instead of the CIA and fact-based intelligence gathering, like I would think any American president would.

COSTELLO: What would you say because Mr. Trump says this is in part -- this whole thing with Russia has become politicized. It's just a push to delegitimize his election. What do you say to that?

SUPRUN: Well, that's not my point. I'm interested in facts and whether or not a foreign government intruded on our elections, undermined our elections and/or picked a favorite for their own benefit. They're not doing it necessarily for Mr. Trump or anyone else they may have been involved with. I think they're doing it for their benefit, which is a danger to our national security.

COSTELLO: So as far as I know, you are the lone Republican pushing for this. Have you talked to other Republicans in the Electoral College?

SUPRUN: I have conversations daily since the op-ed came out Monday of last week. I've had several people contact me. I've reached out to others and I've tried to have conversations not only on the CIA issue, but the original three, most particularly the emoluments clause, which I think Mr. Trump will be in violation of day one if he is indeed inaugurated January 20th.

COSTELLO: So what are those Republicans saying to you?

[09:45:02] SUPRUN: You know, it's a mixed bag and I don't want to jeopardize any of the discussions we're having. We're six days out, as you noted, and we're at a delicate stage where we're trying to convince voters that we perhaps need to pause, reconsider, send this to the House of Representatives and see if we can get more information in the meantime.

COSTELLO: You know, Jill Stein went down a different road and she demanded recounts in three states and a lot of people laughed at her because her efforts were unsuccessful. Might that be -- might that be the outcome for you as well?

SUPRUN: It certainly could. I am less worried about whether or not I'm successful on December 19th than I am in doing the right thing. I think that leadership should be about doing the right thing every time, not about doing the easy thing, which I think too many of our elections have become.

COSTELLO: But -- but, you know, there are those who say our country is so divided and it's time to move on and let Donald Trump become president and see what happens. And people just aren't giving him a fair shake.

SUPRUN: You just had a great segment on, though, on that very topic. If Donald Trump wants to unite the country, I would welcome it. But what I've seen since the election is, he is more willing to attack the cast of "Hamilton" or "Saturday Night Live" than he is to take his own national intelligence briefings.

COSTELLO: So is it your intent then to -- to persuade the Electoral College, the other members, that Donald Trump should not be president?

SUPRUN: Well, that's what I attempted to do with the op-ed and that's what I'm doing in the calls I'm making and taking when I speak to other Electoral College members.

COSTELLO: All right, I have to leave it there. Chris Suprun, thank you so much for being with me this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, from name-calling to threats, the tough challenges journalists face while reporting on Donald Trump. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:35] COSTELLO: Donald Trump's journey to the White House started with a ride down a golden escalator and the journey since, well, it's been unprecedented. As journalists, we're used to reporting on the story, but not actually being the story. But at times, team Trump has put us in the spotlight. The president-elect lambasts the media as dishonest and disgusting. He calls reporters out by name. And things got even nastier behind the scenes. CNN political analyst John Avlon knows all about that. He's also the editor in chief of "The Daily Beast." And he wrote a piece for the first ever book from CNN Politics. It's called "Unprecedented: The election that Changed Everything."

Welcome, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you, Carol.

COSTELLO: Some of the stuff you wrote in the article we can't say on air.

AVLON: I -- that's part of its charm.

COSTELLO: If you want to put it that way. In fact, my favorite excerpt comes from a -- involved a deposition from Trump's first divorce and Michael Cohen (ph), who was the special counsel to Mr. Trump. So what happened?

AVLON: Correct. So one of our "Daily Beast" reporters, Tim Mack, called up Michael Cohen to ask about the deposition and some of the accusations that had been made. And in an exchange that involved him saying that there's no such thing as marital rape, which made some headlines, which is factually inaccurate --

COSTELLO: But there was an allegation out there that Donald Trump's first wife accused him in the divorce proceedings of marital rape.

AVLON: Of feeling violated and then it had been retracted after a settlement, but had been a matter of fact that had not been raised in some time. In the course of that, Michael Cohen explained to our reporter Tim Mack that if anything was reported of this nature, that what he would do to him would be f-ing disgusting, that he would effectively bankrupt him personally, as well as his news organization and ruin him, in terms of such -- you know, referring to other things that he'd done to other people who had made claims or accusations against Donald Trump in the past.

And this, I think, was a big reveal with regard -- this was just a few weeks after the campaign began -- of the way that that organization was used to treating the media, which was simultaneously craving the media's attention, but attacking it and trying to intimidate journalists from doing any reporting with threats of legal violence and others.

COSTELLO: But Trump supporters would say, you have to understand, that was a terrible allegation.

AVLON: It is a terrible allegation.

COSTELLO: Of course the Trump campaign didn't want that out there. So why shouldn't they try to intimidate the media out of writing about it?

AVLON: I think, you know, I think there's a difference between pushing back forcefully with facts and trying to threaten and intimidate and bully. And when those lines gets bulled, we lose our ethical mooring as a country because then, you know, it's -- if the attitude toward the First Amendment is, you know, it's an awfully nice First Amendment you've got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it. If the attitude all of a sudden is that we will individually attack and, you know, persecute people who say things we don't like and ask questions we're uncomfortable with, that's a fundamental discomfort with a basic element of democracy.

You know, let's not forget, the founding fathers mentioned journalists in the Constitution, not political parties. And that gives an idea of where it's (INAUDIBLE) held. So it's all part of a larger game of checks and balances. It's not a game, but a civic responsibility. When that is treated with contempt, and there are attempts to intimidate and attack individuals without questions, that is chilling to every citizen.

COSTELLO: Well, here's -- here's the other thing. Some -- some websites, "The Huffington Post" comes to mind --

AVLON: OK.

COSTELLO: They took a stand against Donald Trump. They actually called him names at the end of every article.

AVLON: Yes.

COSTELLO: So in that sense, I'm sorry, I just heard something. Oh, my goodness, John Avlon.

AVLON: Oh.

COSTELLO: We had to show this picture. That's what I --

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: He's a good man. Known him well a long time.

QUESTION: Did you decide (INAUDIBLE) cabinet positions?

TRUMP: We've been friends for a long time. Life. We discussed life.

QUESTION: Have you ever run into any (INAUDIBLE)?

QUESTION: Kanye, are you considering performing at the inauguration?

Kanye, no comment about your meeting with the president-elect, the president-elect of the United States? Nothing to say?

KANYE WEST: I just wanted to take a picture right now.

QUESTION: Mr. President-elect, are you still (INAUDIBLE)?

QUESTION: Do you (INAUDIBLE), Kanye?

QUESTION: Mr. President-elect --

TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE). And you take care of yourself. I'll see you soon, all right?

WEST: (INAUDIBLE).

COSTELLO: So we just interrupted an impassioned speech by John Avlon to show a picture of Kanye West appearing with the president-elect of the United States.

AVLON: And so much for conversation about Rex Tillerson, the new secretary of state, for the next several hours, huh, Carol?

COSTELLO: Oh, no, no, no, we're going to talk about that in the next segment. Don't you worry.

AVLON: We'll do both. But -- but, I mean, Donald Trump is -- is -- is -- is, look, he is a master marketer. And, you know, I think a lot of it's impulse, that sometimes it's ascribe to strategy. And he does have relationships with people like this. But, I mean, by trotting out Kanye West at this hour, you know, the bright shiny object is going to drive a lot of the coverage for the next few hours.

[09:55:11] COSTELLO: Yes. Well, not on CNN.

AVLON: Good.

COSTELLO: We just showed that because it was such an unusual picture and you wonder why Kanye West was there.

AVLON: I mean -- I mean, rather -- I mean writ large, I mean, you know, the impulse. It's like one of the things that social media has elevated is, you know, people chase bright shiny objects all day long. And the tension there is, what is -- what is the -- what is the heat and what is the light. And part of it is, is it's our job to distinguish between the two. This is fascinating whenever you get a pop culture/politics mash-up of this nature, that's fascinating.

COSTELLO: Yes. AVLON: It also is not deeply important.

COSTELLO: That's right. And, we promise, we will not treat it as such. We really won't. But I'm sure that's -- that's also in CNN's book "Unprecedented" --

AVLON: Sure.

COSTELLO: Because that's the -- that's one of the challenges that we deal with in covering the Trump administration.

AVLON: Absolutely. And, look, you know, again, he has been primarily a marketer his entire life. He is a hype man. And he knows how to use the media. And that's one of the fascinating thing is, he craves media attention. He is a creature of media attention, but he resists and attacks the media when it tries to hold him accountable, unlike any modern American political figure we've seen. That's attention that we need to deal with. And in covering it not to simply be distracted by the bright, shiny objects, but to focus on the facts and to always keep in mind for our readers and viewers that, you know, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, not their own facts, and that's part of our job as journalists.

COSTELLO: Keep us on our toes. John Avlon, thanks for stopping by.

AVLON: You bet. Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, and a reminder that CNN's book "Unprecedented: The Election that Changed Everything," is on sale now. You can order it at cnn.com/book.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

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