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Rick Perry Said to be Pick for Energy Secretary; Trump Picks Exxon's CEO for Secretary of State; Trump Meets with Kanye West; Tillerson Could Face Confirmation Fight; NATO Number Two Fired; Trump Delays Business Separation News Conference. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired December 13, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Couldn't be more grateful that someone of Rex Tillerson's proven leadership and accomplishment has been willing to step forward to serve our nation as our next secretary of state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: So that's VP-elect Mike Pence sings the praises of this man, Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson, who emerged as a serious contender for the State Department job only in the past couple of weeks. "The thing I like best about Rex Tillerson," tweets soon to be President Trump, "is that he has vast experience at dealing successfully with all types of foreign governments." Trump also is said to have picked former Texas governor and one of his former rivals to the GOP nomination, Rick Perry, to head the Department of Energy.

And I'm going to leave it to my CNN colleague, Phil Mattingly, to unpack the significance of that. We also have CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott joining us with much more on Tillerson being the secretary of state pick.

So to you first, Phil. Tell us about this Perry pick for energy.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what I'm hearing repeatedly from Trump advisers is they point to his time as governor of Texas. Obviously the longest serving governor of Texas before he left that post. And in that role basically overseeing the 11th largest economy in the world if it were a sovereign state. So management experience is something I'm hearing over and over again. And, obviously, his experience dealing with energy issues in that state. It was kind of on the ground floor for the U.S. energy renaissance as it was happening during his term there's. Those are all key issues that the president- elect liked about Rick Perry.

Now, there's also some history here. Obviously, not only did he serve as governor, but he was also -- ran for president twice, including in 2012, when he had this interesting debate moment. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY, FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: And I will tell you, it's three agencies of government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, education and the -- what's the third one there? Let's see. The third agency of government I would -- I would do away with the education -- the -- I --I --

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Commerce.

PERRY: Commerce. And, let's see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my.

PERRY: I can't. The third one, I can't. Sorry. Oops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So the third agency was the Energy Department, which he forget at that moment, but it was also an agency that he at one point, when he was running for president, pledged to eliminate. He will now be tanked, should the Senate confirm him, with running that very agency.

Once quick note, Brianna. The Energy Department isn't just about energy development or fracking. It is also and primarily about overseeing the U.S. nuclear arsenal, nuclear proliferation, nuclear security. So there are going to be a lot of questions that Rick Perry will have to answer, not just about energy specific issues as he goes through this confirmation process.

KEILAR: It is a huge, important job, but the irony is just -- it's unbelievable.

All right, Elise, let's talk about Rex Tillerson because this is a man who knows Russia. He also knows the Middle East. But he knows Russia in the capacity of promoting Exxon's interests. And those are very different than America's interests. Most significantly on sanctions, right?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. And Rex Tillerson has said, you know, as the chairman of Exxon Mobil, that they didn't believe in sanctions, not just against Russia in particular, but other countries, because they didn't think they were really effective. And in order for them to be really effective, they would have to, you know, all of the countries involved would have to be implemented. But I think it certainly had to do with his concerns about doing business in Russia. And the question is, would he be advising Donald Trump to, you know, lift those sanctions if he was secretary of state?

KEILAR: And you have two former secretaries of state, including one former secretary of defense, lobbying hard for Tillerson to get the job. But there's a caveat here. Tell us about it.

LABOTT: Well, that's interesting. You know, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and former Defense Secretary Bob Gates have done business and former Secretary of State Jim Baker, they've all done business with Exxon Mobil. They've advised under Tillerson's leadership Exxon Mobil.

I want to read a little statement from Secretary of State Rice saying, "Rex Tillerson's an excellent choice for secretary of state. He will bring to the post remarkable and broad international experience, a deep understanding of the global economy, and a belief of America's special role in the world."

Now, although they have done business with Rex Tillerson, obviously they're doing business with Exxon, they have seen him in action and they do think that Rex Tillerson would be a good negotiator, a good diplomat on behalf of the world, on behalf of the U.S. He does have a very strategic view and vision of the world having done business in so many countries. And I have to say, Brianna, a lot of diplomats that I've talked to at the State Department feel the same way.

They are a little bit wary about those Russia ties. Also some of the work he did in Kyrgyzstan, for instance, on behalf of Exxon Mobil. But they do say that he could shake things up and approach diplomacy in a new way and possibly have some more successes. So I think they're willing to give him a real open mind.

[12:05:02] KEILAR: And, Phil, proving that you just never know what is going to happen there at Trump Tower behind you, tell us about this photo op you saw there this morning.

MATTINGLY: Yes, Brianna, you can kind of rank in tiers who comes in and out of that building behind me and certainly there have been a lot of high-profile, very powerful, very important people that have gone through there. But there's also people like "The Naked Cowboy," who somehow seemed to get into the lobby every single day. We had this meeting today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Just friends. Just friends. And he's a good man. Doing (ph) well. Long time.

QUESTION: Did you decide (INAUDIBLE) cabinet position?

TRUMP: We've been friends for a long time. Life. We discussed life.

QUESTION: Kanye, (INAUDIBLE)?

KANYE WEST: I just want to take a picture right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Deep conversations about life. So if you're going through the rank and tiers, I don't think this is on the higher tier level. Certainly give Kanye West more credit than "The Naked Cowboy." Certainly not on the lowest tier level. But in terms of things that actually matter in the president-elect's day and what matters in these next couple weeks as he heads towards inauguration, I don't think this ranks very high up there. However, our colleague, Noah Gray (ph), says Kanye West, he's told, requested the meeting, was given 15 minutes. They are longtime friends apparently and they met. So there you go.

KEILAR: Fifteen minutes. That is a lot of time, actually, in the scheme of things.

All right, Phil Mattingly, Elise Labott, thanks to both of you.

And the drama that I mentioned comes when Rex Tillerson pulls up a chair in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. CNN's Manu Raju is following the confirmation pushback that is coming even from some Republicans.

He's getting some of this blowback from the GOP, Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, that's right. Right now four Republican senators have expressed some level of concern about Mr. Tillerson's views on Russia in particular. So when his nomination moves forward, he's going to have to alleviate those concerns because as we know, Brianna, there is not much room for error because there are 52 Republicans who will hold seats in the Senate next year and just if three defect on the floor of the Senate, that is enough to stall the nomination. And if one Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee defects, that's probably enough to stall the nomination as well.

And one Republican expressed concern who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee. That is Florida Senator Marco Rubio. Earlier today issuing this statement, saying that, "while Rex Tillerson is a respected businessman, I have serious concerns about his nomination. The next secretary of state must be someone who views the world with moral clarity, is free of potential conflicts of interests and has a clear sense of America's interests, and will be a forceful advocate of America's foreign policy goals."

Now, Brianna, that means that if Rubio were to side with the united Democratic front, that would mean that more Democrats would vote against the nomination. It would probably go down 10-9. There are procedures for Republicans to still move that nomination to the floor, even if it does get voted down in committee, although that's very rare and would be -- optically look very, very bad. So there is a lot of work that the Republicans need to do to sell his nomination and try to convince some Democrats also to flip.

Some Democrats also non-committal at this point, but the Democratic leadership, including Chuck Schumer, just issues a statement criticizing some of Mr. Tillerson's views on -- sanctions on Russia. That's something that also Tim Kaine, the former VP nominee, raised as well. He sits on that all-important Foreign Relations Committee. So watch for this sales job to really intensify in the coming weeks. It seems to have worked in one case, Jeff Flake, that Trump critic who sits on the committee, Republican senator from Arizona, seems to be OK with the nomination because of the support from people like Condoleezza Rice.

Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Manu Raju, thank you so much for that report.

Now I want to get to my panel on this. We have A.B. Stoddard here from Real Clear Politics, Matt Viser from "The Washington -- or, sorry, "The Boston Globe," and Josh Rogin from "The Washington Post." He is also a CNN political analyst. There is no "Washington Globe," but I was combing the two places --

MATT VISER, "THE BOSTON GLOBE.": There was.

KEILAR: Where you work.

OK. What is the calculus here? Donald Trump is -- this is where he's going to see this fight. And I guess he thinks he's going to win, but why is it worth it for him?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. I think we were all wondering who would be the nominee that the Democrats would really try to fight. Now we know, it's going to be Rex Tillerson. And Donald Trump simply went through all of the processes, met with everybody, decided he liked this guy, and decided it was worth it to take on this fight. He has good reason to think he's going to win, right? We're looking at maybe three, four, five Republicans who might vote no. None of them have actually said they're going to vote no. What they're going to do is, they're going to wait and see if Rex Tillerson can reassure them that his -- as secretary of state he would defend American interests, not Exxon interests. If he can say the right things and do the right things between now and then, he'll probably get through even though most Democrats will oppose him.

KEILAR: Matt, to be clear, this is someone who has -- he has a lot of knowledge. He knows Russia. He knows the Middle East. But he's going to have to take off one hat that he's been waring now for decades working for Exxon and he's going to have to put on another one. Basically use his knowledge perhaps for a very different reason, right?

[12:10:15] VISER: And those are going to be at the forefront of those questions that Lindsay Graham and John McCain and others are sort of forecasting. And, you know, the sanctions get to the core of that. You know, we have sanctions against Russia right now that impact Exxon. So Rex Tillerson, the former chief executive of Exxon, then having a secretary of state rules, sort of raises questions about how he looks at those sanctions as secretary of state. And I do think, you know, Donald Trump is going to sort of butt up against the powers of Washington. The Senate is prepared to sort of flex its muscle a little bit here.

KEILAR: You think this, A.B., is a reshuffling entirely of how the U.S. relates to Russia?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR & COLUMNIST, REAL CLEAR POLITICS: We really don't know. I did not believe that Donald Trump would ever pick Mitt Romney because of their different world views with regard to Russia, and obviously other reasons (INAUDIBLE) Romney.

KEILAR: You were right, A.B. You were right.

STODDARD: But -- but I think that -- but I think that this is still in question. This is a very awkward corner for Republicans to be in. You saw them squirming over the weekend. Senator Mitch McConnell, majority leader, comes around, says, yes, they're not our friends. They don't wish us well. These kinds of allegations into cyberattacks need to be investigated.

But they are not comfortable with Donald Trump's stance on Russia and they never have been all fall. They're just embracing him because they're -- he's their president. But how much they push back on Russia is going to be key. And Matt's right, the sanctions question is the crux of this. Will Rex Tillerson have an answer on sanctions that they can defend? Will he say something that they can actually describe to their constituents as in the best interests of the U.S. and not a pro- Russia position? And that's for President-elect Trump and Rex Tillerson to figure out in the next couple weeks.

ROGIN: Yes, I think Republicans who are not in cycle will have more freedom to oppose him. Republicans who want jobs in the Trump administration --

KEILAR: And so you're seeing that with Republicans who have just been re-elected --

ROGIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

KEILAR: They're feeling more free to say, I'm concerned about this.

ROGIN: Right. And, you know, also, the issue of Russian hacking and interference is only getting bigger. So Trump dropping this nominee into the middle of that issue is like turning -- putting it on steroids, OK, and he's -- he's -- what he's done is taken the biggest political issue in the country and mixed it with his secretary of state nominee in a way that can't be undone. So the stakes are very high.

KEILAR: He seems to welcome the drama and he seems to welcome the stagecraft. And we know one of the reasons he considered Mitt Romney was because he looked the part. That's what was reported. How does this fit into that sort of casting almost that we see going on with his cabinet?

VISER: I think part of it was, you know, you have the sense that he and Rex Tillerson just sort of hit it off, you know, in a -- in, you know, a handful of meetings and all of a sudden that guy is the nominee, you know? It sort of shows you how Trump acts in sort of a gut instinct, which we know from his business experience, he would sort of hire people on the spot, you know? And I think that that's sort of how the Tillerson thing sort of came about.

The other interesting point I think is that Trump is going to be up against some of his rivals over the past year. Lindsey Graham, he gave out the cell phone number of, you know, a year ago.

KEILAR: Yes.

VISER: Marco Rubio was "little Marco" for so long. John McCain was not a war hero. These are the people who now are in positions to really stymie Trump's administration from the very beginning.

ROGIN: And just to bring it full circle, he's going to have support from Rice and Gates after running for a year against the Bush administration's foreign policy. Rice and Gates, two of the chief architects of the war in Iraq. So, you know, he's said he's going to drain the swamp. It turns out the swamp is a little bit more complicated than he thought.

KEILAR: OK. We have to talk about Rick Perry for energy secretary. I wonder -- was secretary of irony gone? Was that -- you know, someone else got that? This is so wild to me.

STODDARD: Well, it makes sense that Rick Perry, as Phil outlined, is, you know, is long serving governor of Texas, obviously as a good manager, but obviously knows the most, you know, among the most in the country about -- about oil and gas and energy issues that are the priority of Donald Trump, not the priority of a Democratic administration, obviously. He is not an expert on nuclear weapons, obviously, but he called Donald Trump a cancer on conservatism. I mean one of the biggest things here is that this is another pick that Donald Trump can point to and say, I make friends with my former adversaries and I'm a big guy and I overlook the past.

KEILAR: But is Rick Perry, being someone who wanted to get rid of the Energy Department, I mean --

STODDARD: I think he just wants a job right now.

KEILAR: Right.

(CROSS TALK)

ROGIN: I think it's -- I think it fits the pattern. We've got an SBA administrator. You know, we've got an EPA director who doesn't believe in climate change.

KEILAR: Yes.

ROGIN: We've got a labor secretary that doesn't believe in minimum wage increases. You know, so he's appointing a bunch of people who are going to make fundamental changes to these agencies and those changes will largely involve reducing their size and importance.

KEILAR: And, real quick, before you go, you have a piece today on how the Trump team is trying to get rid of the number two at NATO?

[12:15:03] ROGIN: Yes, that's right. So Rose Gottemoeller, who was nominated by Obama, but works for NATO, is sitting there and Republicans don't like her. They --

KEILAR: Why?

ROGIN: They allege that she lied to Congress and withheld information about Russia treaty violations from the North Atlantic Council, NATO's political body. So although she's two soft on Russia, according to Republican, which Trump might actually agree with, for them it's personal. And what the Trump team has done is they've deployed an envoy to tell NATO that they want her replaced. NATO has to decide if they go along with it. Even if they don't go along with it, they're not going to deal with her. So we're seeing a big battle and a challenge coming from the Trump administration with NATO that's going to start right after he gets inaugurated.

KEILAR: All right, we'll see what the implications are there.

Josh Rogin, Matt Viser, A.B. Stoddard, thank you all so much.

And up next, Donald Trump's new vow. He is promising no new deals during his term, personal deals. He says he will hand over control of the business to his two sons. What about his daughter, though, who is so prominent in this campaign? No mention of her. We'll take a closer look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: As we approach five weeks until Donald Trump becomes president, one of the great unknowns is how he will separate himself from his business empire once he takes office. We mentioned how he's postponing the news conference that he was planning for this Thursday that was supposed to outline his plans on that front. Trump says he'll hold one in the near future to discuss his business, cabinet picks and other topics of interest.

As CNN's Cristina Alesci explains, Trump's vast commercial ties are uncharted territory for an incoming president.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I'm not going to be doing deals at all. No, that would be -- I don't even know if that's a conflict. I mean I -- I have the right to do -- you know under the law I have the right to do it, I just don't want to do it. I don't want to do deals.

[12:20:10] CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How do you describe the complications of having the first billionaire president? In a word, unprecedented. An unprecedented business empire owned by the commander in chief. An unprecedented opportunity for corruption at the highest level. And a leader with an unprecedented disdain for following political norms.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS: Every Republican nominee since Richard Nixon, who at one time was under an audit, has released their tax return.

ALESCI: Traditions, and not the law, have guided presidents on how to deal with their finances in the past.

JAN BARAN, REPUBLICAN ETHICS LAWYER: The law clearly does not apply to the president or the vice president and legally the president of the United States doesn't have to do anything.

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Good afternoon.

ALESCI: Back in 1983, President Reagan asked the Office of Government Ethics a question.

REAGAN: Win just one for the Gipper.

ALESCI: Could the first movie star president still take part in the entertainment industry? The answer -- legally, conflicts of interest laws don't apply to the president. But, quote, "as a matter of policy, he should conduct himself as if they did." That principle has led to former presidents selling off their assets, wanting to avoid questions about their motives.

TRUMP: So here's the story.

ALESCI: But now, more than 30 years later, the president of the United States will own hotels, golf courses, and his name will appear in credits for "The Celebrity Apprentice." Some tried to downplay his role on the show, but his spokesperson defended him days earlier.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: I mean presidents have a right to do things in their -- in their spare time.

ALESCI: Trump is set to announce that he will leave his business.

TRUMP: My executives will run it with my children. It's a big company. It's a great company.

ALESCI: Still, sources say there's no indication that the businessman in chief will fully shed his assets. In fact, a bipartisan coalition of ethics experts said that, quote, "the plan will create the appearance that President-elect Trump and his family are using the presidency to enrich themselves." The group is calling for Trump to sell his business and put the money in a blind trust controlled by a non-family member.

TRUMP: I have Ivanka and Eric and Don sitting there. Run the company, kids. Have a good time.

ALESCI: A good time is exactly what Trump critics fear. And that's why Trump's announcement will likely lead to more questions than answers.

Cristina Alesci, CNN Money, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Let's dig into this issue of Donald Trump's business dealings with someone who did some pretty groundbreaking reporting on him throughout the campaign. David Fahrenthold of "The Washington Post" joining me now.

David, thanks for being with us.

And I want you to listen to what the president-elect's team is saying about this desire they have that they're going to postpone this explanation of how Donald Trump is going to extricate himself from his business empire. Here's what his adviser, Kellyanne Conway, told Anderson Cooper last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP SENIOR ADVISER: So it's a very unconventional situation. Normally we have politicians moving from political job to political job. In this case we have a very successful businessman who's brilliant and a billionaire, who has assets and holdings all over the globe and that needs to have a transfer of power through the proper channels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What do you make of this delay of pushing this off until very possibly close to his inauguration?

DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think it either means that the Trump team hasn't figured out how to do this, or that they have figured out how to do it and they know people won't like it and they want to delay it until after the electors vote on the 19th.

KEILAR: So you would have expected, right, that prior to being elected, this was something that would have been in the works. But then there was also -- you know, you hear from people who say there were many people even close to Donald Trump who didn't expect for him to win and they questioned whether due diligence was done on prepping something like this.

FAHRENTHOLD: I think it's true that many people close to Trump, including perhaps Trump himself, did not believe they would win right up until polls closed on November 8th. But now certainly this is something that is not just about, you know, these imaginary political norms. It's not just about propriety. It's about Trump's own protection. We're talking about somebody who is going to -- if he doesn't sell off his properties, if he ends up trying to be involved in this business as president, that question about conflicts of interest is going to dog him every day and on every decision. That's why presidents do it, not just for -- because of the country or because of good behavior, but for themselves, too.

KEILAR: Yes, and so -- and you outlined the problems with the Trump Foundation diligently. You followed the money. Donations that were alleged to have been made by the Trump Foundation and then you found out actually this charity had no record of their being a donation. Later the Trump Foundation admitted that they had done self-dealing. They violated IRS law or IRS regulations. They violated the law. Do you expect that things like this are going to continue to play out in the presidency? People are going to be looking at this and there's going to be a drip, drip, drip.

[12:25:15] FAHRENTHOLD: Of course. I think there will be questions about foreign policy decisions, when we're talking about countries in which Trump has a project or a project that he wants to be built, Turkey, Taiwan, China. And we're also talking about questions over emoluments. This is an obscure sounding thing, but it's one of the few limitations on the president's behavior that was actually written into the Constitution. Presidents cannot take payments from foreign states. And so if Trump owns businesses, and he -- and where he does own them directly, he take -- and those businesses get money from foreign governments, Trump could be in violation of the Constitution from day one and it doesn't matter what Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell think, that's going to continue to dog him and them. KEILAR: It seems like looking at even the things you uncovered, there weren't a lot of repercussions. So what are your expectations for the future, and if these things do continue to dog Donald Trump, if there aren't necessarily legal repercussions, are there any repercussions?

FAHRENTHOLD: Of course. You know, we don't know what the House and Senate will do. They're the ones who would have to enforce this emoluments clause, this idea that Trump can't take payments from foreign governments. But as I said, it's beyond their power. They don't get to decide whether it's a big issue or not. The public gets to decide. And if people watch Trump's behavior and watch what he's doing and decide that he is putting his -- himself or his businesses ahead of the country, there's consequences for that. This -- the idea that Trump can get by this because Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan don't care, I think that's not true at all.

KEILAR: All right, very interesting. David Fahrenthold, thank you so much. We always appreciate your time.

FAHRENTHOLD: Thank you.

KEILAR: See you again soon.

And up next, President Obama sends a special warning to his successor when it comes to intelligence briefings. Hear the president's message to Donald Trump.

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