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Trump's Controversial Pick of Tillerson; Confirmation Fight Brews for State Pick; Oakland Fire News Conference; Perry Tapped to Lead Energy Department; Romney Loses Out on Top Job; Dow Nears Record High. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired December 13, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:08] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, here we go. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Live pictures here, Oakland, California. Just a heads up to all of you, we'll be taking this live momentarily because investigators there with the ATF there in Oakland, California, scheduled to hold a news conference. We could now learn what caused that warehouse fire on the second of December that killed 36 people. We've got a live picture, as you can see. We'll hop back to that as soon as they begin.

But let's talk about this Trump transition here. A battle is brewing over one of the two Texans that Donald Trump has just tapped to be a member of his cabinet. I'm talking about Exxon Mobil CEO Rex Tillerson. He is the man the president-elect would like to serve as the next secretary of state. Mr. Trump today also named former Texas Governor Rick Perry as his choice for energy secretary.

And while Perry certainly has years of government experience, Tillerson has none. But, he is a business titan with a record of overcoming challenges. Sound familiar? Yet unlike Donald Trump, Tillerson has the enthusiastic backing of some big names from the Bush administration. They include former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, former Defense Secretary Bob Gates, both of whom served under President George W. Bush. We should also point out that Exxon is a client of the consulting firm that Rice and Gates started. Also supporting Rex Tillerson, former Vice President Dick Cheney and Bush 41's own secretary of state, James Baker.

But Tillerson still faces a potential Capitol Hill showdown because of his ties specifically to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

So for that, let me first go to CNN national politics reporter MJ Lee.

Tell me first about these key senators and specifically Republicans who are criticizing this pick.

MJ LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Yes. Well, Brooke, I can tell you that this is a nomination that is turning a lot of heads on Capitol Hill for several reasons. Tillerson is a controversial pick. The first reason is simply that he has no prior government experience, much like President-elect Donald Trump. And the other reason, of course, is the one that you mentioned, his close ties, businesses ties, I should say, to Russia and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Of course, the backdrop for these concerns about Tillerson's ties to Russia is the concern that Russia may have interfered with the U.S. elections and this is, of course, an issue that many Republicans are now saying that they want to actually look into further.

Already we are seeing, as you mentioned, some Republicans publically sort of voicing their concerns about the Tillerson nomination. We have heard Senator John McCain, for example, saying that Putin is a thug and a murderer and he, frankly, can't understand why anyone would be friends with him. Senator Marco Rubio, Donald Trump's former opponent in the presidential election, is also weighing in. And I want to read part of his statement. Rubio writing, "while Rex Tillerson is a respected businessman, I have serious concerns about his nomination. The next secretary of state must be someone who views the world with moral clarity, is free of potential conflicts of interest, has a clear sense of America's interest and will be a forceful advocate for America's foreign policy goals to the president within the administration and on the world stage."

Now, Brooke, you can imagine if that's the kind of mixed reaction that we're getting from the Republican side of Congress, there's some fierce opposition coming from, of course, the Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill as well. This includes Senator Bernie Sanders. He said today that Tillerson's nomination must be opposed and that the Exxon CEO is a pal of Putin.

Now, of course, the big question going into the new year is whether Tillerson can get the support that he needs on Capitol Hill to actually be confirmed or whether we will end up seeing a situation where enough Republicans can't get on board with his nomination and they effectively end up tanking his nomination.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: We're going to loop back to that point. MJ Lee, thank you so much for setting it up.

Let's have a bigger conversation and let me bring in Heidi Przybyla, senior politics reporter for "USA Today," Shelby Holiday, politics and business reporter for "The Wall Street Journal," and CNN political reporter Sara Murray.

Ladies, welcome.

And let me just turn to you two first. Sara, just on the note that apparently this Tillerson pick came to fruition because of the urgings of Bob Gates, Condoleezza Rice and Jim Baker. Talk to me more about that and how they had a hand in making this happen.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, that's right, they sort of helped put this candidate in front of Donald Trump. This came at a time when he was looking at other folks. He was looking at Mitt Romney, for instance, as part of sort of an effort to look at former rivals and he actually kind of liked him. And Donald Trump's team felt like he needed more candidates. And this was someone that, you know, Condoleezza Rice, Robert Gates and others urged him to take a look at. And, in fact, they hit it off. They're both business men.

BALDWIN: Had they - had they met before Saturday?

MURRAY: Not to my knowledge.

BALDWIN: OK.

MURRAY: Don't quote me on that.

BALDWIN: OK. I was wondering.

MURRAY: It's possible they've crossed paths before, but there is no like long history that goes back between Donald Trump and this guy.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MURRAY: But when -

[14:05:01] BALDWIN: Forgive me. Let me stop. We've got to go to Oakland, California. ATF's about to brief us on potentially the cause of that warehouse fire.

JILL SNYDER, ATF SPECIAL AGENT: Investigation. ATF has assisted by providing our fire expertise and conducting witness interviews. All of the scene information has been gathered and our analysis will continue in conjunction with the fire department investigators. All of the findings will be submitted to the Oakland Fire Department, who will prepare the final report and give it to the district attorney's office for their ongoing investigation.

To clear up the concern over the determination being electrical, the electrical system is part of the analysis ATF experts and the Oakland Fire Department investigators are looking at in determining the cause of the fire. The investigation is still ongoing, though, and at this time no final determination has been made as to the exact cause of the fire.

ATF will continue to support the fire department with analyzing all of the findings for the final report. ATF will also continue to assist with the interviewing of witnesses for the district attorney's office investigation. Although ATF is no longer on the scene, we would like to let the families and friends of the victims know that our thoughts are with them.

At this time, I'd like to turn the podium over to Fire Chief Reed.

CHIEF TERESA DELOACH REED, OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA FIRE DEPARTMENT: Good morning, everyone.

I would like to start off by acknowledging the remarkable work that was done by Oakland Fire Department personnel. Their time on scene during those four days was very taxing, both physically and mentally. And I just want to thank them personally for the contributions that they've made in regards to this tragic incident. The work they performed was spectacular because it was a very difficult event. I want to thank the ATF for their participation and support throughout

this incident. For providing us with investigators and specialized personnel from their fire research laboratory in Maryland. Currently our fire investigators are still working with ATF to compile all the information necessary for a final fire report. The determination of cause and origin has not been identified yet. This investigation is still ongoing. Once we complete the fire report - and as I mentioned, it's - the investigation right now is still ongoing so I cannot give you a date on when that report will be completed. But once the report is completed, it will be turned over to the D.A.'s office, as mentioned by ATF, to continue their ongoing investigation that is taking place.

Again, this was a tragic event. It was something that the city of Oakland thought that they would - it was a tragic event. And so with the families, our thoughts and prayer are with you. And for all the different agencies that was out supporting that event, I just want to say thank you to everyone for your participation and your help during these time times.

NANCY O'MALLEY, ALAMEDA CO., CALIFORNIA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Good morning. I'm Nancy O'Malley, the district attorney.

And I want to just begin by echoing what Chief Reed just said, and that is to acknowledge the dedicated first responders, the firefighters, law enforcement and including all of the leaders of those organizations who worked so hard over the last several days to make sure that this tragic event is being addressed with the utmost seriousness and focus that we can.

I want to thank specifically the ATF for all of their expertise and for working so closely with my investigative team. Between the ATF and my criminal investigation team, we have conducted numerous interviews with witnesses, we are working with the ATF and with the Oakland Fire Department to identify what we can from the evidence that's been presented. The analysis is ongoing and that will continue.

As you know, my office now stands in the lead of the criminal investigation and we're working closely with now the Oakland Fire Department to make sure that we are thorough, that we are methodical and that we are calculated in how we are able to analyze every piece of information and evidence that we believe we have recovered from the fire scene, as well as surrounding circumstances that led up to that tragic fire.

[14:10:15] We will continue with our investigation. The lead prosecutor is David Lim (ph), an assistant district attorney, and we have several investigators from my office who are working, committed 100 percent to this investigation.

We will work as efficiently as we can. We will move it along as quickly as we can, but we will not sacrifice the integrity of the investigation or any of the analysis to try to get to an end result before we are ready.

I want to emphasize it's an active investigation and we will not be commenting on any of the information that we have gathered. I thank the media for the attention that you have given to this and particularly to the attention and care that you have shown in your reporting to the family members of those who died in the fire and to all of the people who have - who survived the fire and those who have information that give us a better context under which this fire occurred.

I also want to say that the - my office - victim witness division, has been working actively and very significantly in reaching out and working with the families of those who have died and with those who survived the fire. We have prepared for you a number of phone numbers for resources for people in the community who have been impacted by this fire, particularly those who have been directly impacted, either by losing a loved one -

BALDWIN: All right, so, unfortunately, no concrete answers yet as far as what started - what caused that fire. We heard the fire chief there in Oakland repeat over and over just what a tragic event that was, that quote/unquote "ghostship" is what it was called, this warehouse in Oakland, California, where 36 lives were lost. The investigation as far as the cause, that is still underway, as is the criminal investigation. So still to be continued as far as Oakland, California.

Meantime, so much to talk about today when it comes to politics. We were just talking about the guy who Mr. Trump wants to tap as the secretary of state, Rex Tillerson. We will talk to our panel here momentarily as far as concerns. Could there be a nasty nomination battle? What about ties to Russia? Do people care that he doesn't necessarily have diplomatic experience? And, oh, yes, Governor Rick Perry being tapped to lead an agency he couldn't name and wanted to abolish just a couple years ago. Don't not move a muscle.

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[14:16:03] BALDWIN: All right, back to politics, and my all ladies panel. Sara Murray, what's old is new again. Let me just ask - let me just ask you again, for people just joining us, you know, as far as this Rex Tillerson pick for secretary of state, we know that former secretaries of state, both James Baker and Condoleezza Rice had a hand in this, as did former Defense Secretary Bob Gates. How much of a hand? How did this come to be?

MURRAY: Well, I think that they were important in both putting Rex Tillerson in front of Donald Trump. These are not two men who have a long history together. But also making it clear that if there was going to be opposition, which we're now seeing from senators, that they were going to put their names out publicly in support of this guy. That is a thing that could sway some of these senators. We've already seen senators mentioning it.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MURRAY: Saying that it gives them confidence to see people like Condoleezza Rice and Robert Gates throwing their support behind Tillerson. But I also think when the two guys met, when Tillerson and Trump met, you saw two businessmen who have been successful in their fields coming together and they saw sort of a similar pragmatism in one another and I think that that helped Donald Trump feel comfortable with this pick maybe in a way that he didn't necessarily feel with Mitt Romney.

BALDWIN: So maybe the - certain Republicans of the world, their concerns would be assuaged, Shelby, because the Jim Baker and the Condi Rice involvement. But, still, you know, those voices, the McCains, the Rubios, the Grahams have been loud. There could be more. This could be a difficult nomination confirmation fight. Do you think that the Trump team knows that? Do you think they're naive? Do you think they don't care?

SHELBY HOLIDAY, POLITICS AND BUSINESS REPORTER, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Trump absolutely knows that and by picking Rex Tillerson he's essentially setting up a proxy battle within the Republican Party. You have on one side the names you just mentioned -

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOLIDAY: Senator Graham, Senator McCain, Senator Rubio. And then on the other side you have Trump and his allies, like Senator Jeff Session. So is this - it's essentially a referendum on Russia, what this pick is, and Rex Tillerson, to his credit, has negotiated great deals with Russia. He received the order of friendship a few years ago from Russia.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOLIDAY: He's known Putin since 1999. The guy know house to negotiate. But that's the very thing that concerns a lot of these senators, as it has throughout the entire year. This is not a new issue. It came up on the campaign trail all the time.

BALDWIN: So the - you say that this is a referendum on Russia I think is interesting.

And, Heidi, let me just pose this to you, because I'm wondering if some of the worries about a Rex Tillerson pick is more about the friendship award and about, you know, ties with Russia and, you know, stock, you know, with Exxon and Russia that he has, versus just not having any diplomatic experience.

HEIDI PRZYBYLA, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, "USA TODAY": Well, I think it's' both, but especially coming on the heels of this bombshell information about Russia possibly having -

BALDWIN: Interference.

PRZYBYLA: Launched an unprecedented cyberattack on us during the election. Brooke, we are just at the beginning of our discovery about the extent to which the Russians were successful in influencing our election, which is really astonishing. And so the question right now is not just, does he not have experience, but in terms of the experience that he does have and the conflicts of interest that he does have, you know, he still owns a lot - he's going to have to divest himself. But the company, Exxon itself, has billions of dollars riding on these sanctions that we currently have in place against Russia and that Tillerson -

BALDWIN: That he was very outspoken about.

PRZYBYLA: And that Tillerson was outspoken about in terms of being critical.

Now, let's just say, we go through our discovery and we find that there was an awful lot of attempts - successful attempts by Russia in terms of tinkering in our election. We're going to need someone who has a really strong spine to go up against the Russians and to really try and preserve the institutions and the diplomatic approach that we've had in place since World War II, which has been to try and create a bulwark against Russia aggression, which we're seeing on the - in Ukraine, which we're seeing in Syria, which I think is underreported in terms of the Russians being involved in the bombing there. It's not just the Syrians. So it is overall that Tillerson is - the question is if Tillerson is really kind of a proxy for what is a new approach to Russia since World War II in terms of the policy that we've had.

[14:20:02] BALDWIN: Yes, there's so much more to be said about him, but I do want to make time for the former Texas governor, Rick Perry. Just because we can, let's play the sound. You all know where I'm going from just a couple of years ago. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY, FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: The third agency of government I would - I would do away with the education - the - I -I -

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Commerce.

PERRY: Commerce. And, let's see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my.

PERRY: I can't. The third one, I can't. Sorry. Oops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK, Sara Murray -

MURRAY: It's still awkward to watch, isn't it? It's still hard to watch.

BALDWIN: It is awkward to watch.

You know, he is a well-respected politician, but, you know, he couldn't name it. But I think what's more important is, is that was an agency he wanted to do away with and now he's being tapped to lead it.

MURRAY: Well, that's right. I mean it will be interesting to see what a Donald Trump direction for the Department of Energy will be. But I think that when you look at someone like Texas Governor Rick Perry, former Texas governor, the reason Trump liked him is because he used his helm as the governor of Texas to spur job creation and a lot of that had to do with capitalizing on energy assets that were already in Texas. But a lot of that also had to do with going to nearby states and luring in businesses and being really aggressive about.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MURRAY: That's something that can help an individual state, but that's not something that can spur job creation nationwide. I think one of the things you need to remember when you look at these cabinet picks is, Donald Trump is looking at all these people through the lens of a businessman and through the lens of what his overarching goal is as president, which is to create jobs and to protect American workers. So when he looks at Perry's legacy in Texas, he sees someone who did that effectively as a governor and I think that that is what helped him get to Perry as a pick for the Energy Department, as sort of convoluted as that may seem after watching that clip.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Right.

And just, finally, Shelby, to you, as far as the, I don't know, losers, I guess, of the revolving door process, you look at the Rudy Giulianis, and the Mitt Romneys. You know, Governor Romney tweeting kindly about the process. What do you make of that? And even, I'm wondering, if it is such a tough nomination or confirmation battle for Rex Tillerson, could Romney still be in play?

HOLIDAY: He could be. I mean -

BALDWIN: Is that a crazy question?

HOLIDAY: No, it's not a crazy question at all. Donald Trump has sort of run his cabinet process like "The Apprentice" or maybe like "The Bachelor." So he's been very vocal about it and a lot of these candidates have spoken publicly about going through the process and being interviewed.

Rudy Giuliani, the other day, said he will help Donald Trump from the sidelines, he'll help him from the private sector. He will not have a job in the cabinet. But, no, I don't think it's crazy to think Mitt Romney might be considered. They seem to have a warmer relationship over the past couple weeks and the - the one thing that I will say is people were -

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE) the RNC chairwomanship?

HOLIDAY: People who are close to Donald Trump throughout the campaign were very opposed to Mitt Romney being picked for secretary of state.

BALDWIN: Yes, yes, yes, they were not quiet about that at all.

HOLIDAY: That might (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: Just quickly, Heidi, on - on Rudy Giuliani. I mean Shelby says he'll help from the private sector. I mean what do you think his future is with regard to the administration?

PRZYBYLA: I think he probably - the only job he would have been interested in is secretary of state and that he probably has a very lucrative consulting business, which he will continue to operate and continue to profit from. And there's a lot of people, as you know, who Donald Trump tends to rely on who get kicked out of his circle, like Corey Lewandowski, and then still have a direct pipeline to him. He likes to solicit those opinions. So I think he will still be a surrogate for this administration and occasionally possibly have influence over Trump as well.

BALDWIN: All right, Heidi, Shelby, and Sara, thank you so much.

Here's one more name I definitely didn't think I'd be talking about today, Kanye West, anyone, meeting with Mr. Trump, then stopping to speak to those cameras there in the lobby of Trump Tower. Hear why he was there and what they discussed.

Plus, we are getting word that Trump's team is split on how far he should go separating himself from his company. We have that for you.

And breaking news today, as Syrian forces reportedly execute civilians and families, they're sending out their final messages. Word of a major development inside of Aleppo.

You're watching CNN.

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[14:27:30] BALDWIN: All right, some breaking news from Wall Street. A major rally going on right now. The Dow is now close to reaching a record high of 20,000 for the first time ever. CNN Money digital correspondent Paul La Monica is live down at the New York Stock Exchange.

Paul, this is great, but why?

Paul La Monica, it's Brooke. Can you hear me? We're live on CNN.

PAUL LA MONICA, CNN MONEY DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: I can hear, yes.

BALDWIN: There we go. Why the spike?

LA MONICA: We are seeing this rally continue and it's actually shifted a bit, Brooke, to tech stocks in anticipation, perhaps, of the big meeting that Donald Trump is going to have with tech leaders. You're seeing Microsoft, IBM, Apple, all these stocks are helping to lead the Dow higher. And I have a story up on CNN Money right now that Microsoft's at its highest level that it's ever been.

BALDWIN: But why, exactly? Why? What was the catalyst driving this?

LA MONICA: Yes, I think -

BALDWIN: And how long does it last? I guess that's to be determined.

LA MONICA: This is the big to be determined, definitely. I think right now investors are afraid of missing the boat. We are getting closer and closer to year end, obviously. BALDWIN: Yes.

LA MONICA: So many professional investors, they want to clean up their portfolio and make it look good for year end. But I think also we've got the Fed meeting tomorrow. They're going to raise rates. We know that's going to happen. So money is starting to shift out of bounds and into stocks, which are just looking more and more attractive with all the hope - hope of Trump stimulus.

BALDWIN: Look at that. We'll talk again if and when it hits that 20,000 mark. An hour and a half to go before the closing bell. Paul, thank you. Stand by.

LA MONICA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Next, it is being described as a complete meltdown of humanity. Late word of a possible cease-fire as the battle for Aleppo enters what could be its final stage. Reports of children trapped, civilians executed in the streets. People there are filming their final good-byes. Final good-byes as the Syrian army closes in.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) militias are maybe 300 meters away. No place now to go. It's the last place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This may be my last video.

[14:29:43] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This might be close to, if not the last communication.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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