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Calls for Electoral College Not to Vote Trump; Dylann Roof Decides Not to Testify in Own Trial; Forbes: Vladimir Putin World's Most Powerful Person; Actor Alan Thicke Dies Suddenly. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired December 14, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:31:01] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

In just four days, members of the Electoral College will officially cast their ballots to confirm their state's choice for president of the United States. A pretty straightforward process. But now there are calls for those electors to vote against Donald Trump.

And one professor says some of them are likely to change their minds. But will it change the result? No. Zero percent. Will it be symbolic? Let's talk about that.

The Harvard professor leading this fight is Lawrence Lessig. He joins me now.

I should mention that you, yourself, sir, ran for president in the Democratic primary.

Also with me, Attorney R.J. Lyman, who has been speaking with some of these Republican electors.

Gentlemen, thank you so much.

Larry, first to you.

So, doing the math, you have to have at least 37 Republican electors to oppose Trump to then have him drop below the magic number of 270. Where are you right now?

LARWENCE LESSIG, PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERITY: Well, as I said last night -- and I think R.J. will give some of the backing to why we think this is a fair number -- we think there's about 20 who are seriously considering right now making a judgment of conscience and voting against how they're pledged. A week ago, there was one. And so, the real question is whether the incredible focus that's now been raised about the issues related to Donald Trump and this Russian involvement, and Donald Trump and his refusal to divest himself, to make him compliant with the foreign bribery clause, will lead others to ask the question whether they, in good conscience, can vote to affirm Donald Trump as their president. BALDWIN: Just so we're clear, everyone I've ever talked to said

there's no way you would reach that point. You'd need, doing the math, 17 more to hit below 270, so this is really symbolic.

LESSIG: You're right. If all there is, is 20, a significant number will decide not to vote against Donald Trump because what purpose will there be at that point? But if there is 20, and a number more begin to coalesce and say we're also interested in voting our conscience, then I think there's a significant chance, not a probability, but a significant chance that enough will begin to see there's a reason for them to vote their conscience. And if by Monday, they can be confident they'll have 37 others with them, then, in fact, they may make a decision that would change the result in this election.

BALDWIN: R.J., you're talking to some of these Republican electors. What are they thinking? What are the conversations you're having?

R.J. LYMAN, ATTORNEY: Well, I want to be clear, I'm not recruiting them to a cause. I'm reminding them of their duty. The fundamental purpose of the Electoral College is not simply to spread the campaigns across the country. If we did that, we'd just have a state-by-state point system. These are real people with a real responsibility. And they're supposed to follow their conscience and the Constitution. People who call for the abolition of the Electoral College, people who say they should follow the popular vote, people who browbeat these good people who are serving the country, I think are missing the mark. And I think, instead, what the electors I've talked to appreciate is a little bit of guidance in how to think about how to discharge their responsibilities in a conscientious manner.

BALDWIN: I'm curious, R.J., in these conversations, the professor mentioned Russia. We know a number of electors, roughly 10, have asked for these briefings on any sort of foreign intervention in the election. We know the Clinton campaign is supporting that desire to get those briefings. Have they mentioned that at all and what have they said?

[14:35:00] LYMAN: I'm quite careful not to tell you what the electors have said to me because they say it to me in confidence. But I will tell you that when I talk with them and I say the test that Hamilton and Madison and the others who ratified the Constitution set was fitness for the office, and as I say, that's really about whether the president will faithfully execute the office and whether he will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. And in talking about the Constitution, there's no doubt about it, if you look at the presumptive president-elect's conduct since November 8 -- campaigns are messy, I don't ask them to look to that -- whether it's the First Amendment and attacks on the press, whether it's his cavalier attitude towards treaty clause, or as I like to say to them, most of us didn't know how to pronounce or spell emoluments but we know the Constitution dealt with the prospect of a president who might be more interested in money-making --

BALDWIN: OK.

LYMAN: -- than in government service or in -- be subject to the interference of a foreign governments --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I need to jump in and just quickly ask, because I understand you're saying you're not trying to recruit anyone.

Larry, back to you, we know liberals were initially through the campaign process crying foul because Trump was saying he may not or he is being nebulous about whether or not he would accept the results of the election, especially if Clinton were to win. But isn't that exactly what you're doing right now?

LESSIG: Well, the election is a popular vote which, of course, Clinton did win, and an Electoral College vote, which is exactly what's being raised right now. And in the judgment that electors have to make --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But Electoral College is the reality here.

LESSIG: Electoral College is a bunch of electors who are charged by the Constitution with an obligation to make a judgment about whether they will affirm the results that have come from their states, and that's exactly the decision they're making right now. And the judgment needs to be, as R.J. has said, one that looks to the Constitution and the purpose of the restrictions the Constitution imposes on the president.

BALDWIN: So, you want them to go against their states and what they committed to and switch?

LESSIG: I want them to vote their conscience.

LYMAN: If I might?

LESSIG: Please.

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Forgive me, I'm trying to understand. You want them -- I hear you say vote their conscious, but that really means, not vote for Trump.

LYMAN: Not necessarily. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't vote for Donald Trump. What I am saying is they had a two-part obligation under the Constitution. One is to afford a moral certainty -- Hamilton's words, not mine -- that none but the most qualified would assume the office. And the second was to ensure that whoever became president could keep -- could gain and maintain -- again, Hamilton's words -- the esteem and confidence of the nation.

Donald Trump won 26 percent of the votes of eligible voters. I'm not comparing him to Mrs. Clinton. The last time a president during his tenure had the approval of that low a percentage of the country was the summer of 1974 in the weeks before Richard Nixon resigned.

I think the constitutional duty of the electors is not to vote against Donald Trump. It is to make sure that our institutions perform their two-part functions.

BALDWIN: OK, I understand. And you have 20. Need 17 more to go. The vote is in four days. We'll follow up.

Gentlemen, Larry Lessig, R.J. Lyman, thank you so much.

LYMAN: Thank you very much.

LESSIG: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, here, the man who confessed to killing nine church goers in Charleston, he decided not to testify in his own murder trial just hours ago. We'll discuss the chances that he could ultimately receive the death penalty.

Plus, we are keeping our eye on a news conference from Fed Chairwoman Janet Yellen, who just announced an interest rate hike. What that means for you, your credit cards, your home. We'll have that whole conversation coming up.

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[14:4240:] BALDWIN: Jury deliberations could begin as early as tomorrow in the death penalty trial of a man accused of brutally killing nine black parishioners, including the pastor, inside of Charleston's historic Mother Emanuel AME Church. Both sides have rested after six days of graphic emotional testimony of what happened last year.

On the stand, today, the one lone survivor who the shooter said he would not kill, Polly Shepherd. The nurse testified she was praying out loud during the massacre. She says she dialed 911, all the while hiding under a table, begging police to hurry and stop the bloodshed.

The suspect refusing to testify in his own defense. Prosecutors say he cased this particular church out for more than six months, seven trips he made, before the fateful day. Closing arguments begin tomorrow morning.

CNN's Nick Valencia wraps up the trial's most have dramatic moments.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DYLANN ROOF, ACCUSED OF SHOOTING NINE IN CHURCH: Well, I had to do it because somebody had to do something because black people are killing white people every day.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Over a year since his confession, Dylann Roof is standing trial, but if Roof had it his way, there would be no trial at all. Before the case began, Roof said he was willing to plead guilty to the charges on the condition that prosecutors remove the death penalty. They refused. Over the past week, in federal court, prosecutors have punctuated

their case by painting Roof as a cold-blooded, calculated killer obsessed with white supremacy and hateful of blacks.

They say Roof hoped to start a race war when he walked into the historically black Emanuel AME Church in Charleston on June 17, 2015. He prayed with the Bible study group for nearly an hour before removing a .45-caliber Glock handgun and shooting nine people, some multiple times, even after they were already dead.

Evidence presented by prosecutors at the trial included video showing Roof shooting target practice, parts of a more than 2,000-word manifesto, and this white sheet found into his room cut into a triangle. Investigators believe it was Roof's attempt to fashion it into a KKK hood.

The last week of the trial has been, no doubt, emotional.

[14:45:01] The first witness brought to the stand was Felicia Sanders, a shooting survivor, forced to take a break from recounting her gut-wrenching testimony of what she saw that day in Charleston.

On the first day of court, Ruth's own mother suffered a heart attack at the beginning of lunch recess.

There was also drama behind the scenes as well with Roof's defense. Up until two weeks ago, the 22-year-old said he wanted to represent himself. Now he's changed his mind, but only for the guilt phase of the trial. During the penalty phase, he's expected to be his own defense. It's a surprise, considering his attorney, David Bruck, is a death penalty lawyer who may not be able to use his skills if Roof keeps his current plans.

For those watching the case, the horrors of what happened last July lie in the facts. Roof has sat and listened, the whole time expressionless, emotionless, showing no remorse for the massacre he's accused of.

Nick Valencia, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Before the defense rested today, the lead attorney tried to call mental health experts to the stand. He argued FBI testimony opened the door, but the judge said no.

With me now, Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst, who also represented George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case.

Mark, nice to see you.

Quickly here, why did the defense rest so quickly?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm surprised at that. Roof seems to be the captain of the ship when he shouldn't be. He should be listening to the lawyers. But they didn't put on a lot of evidence. You would think now is an opportune time to get on some of the mental health evidence. Even if not through experts, at least get it in through some facts, some information. Because it's not a question of did he do it. The question is, is he going to die for it. That will be a question of a mitigation that's presented at the penalty phase and, hopefully, you would think, to a certain extent, at the guilt phase, but it wasn't.

BALDWIN: So, looking ahead, to your point, as to the "whether he will die for what he did" piece, from a defense perspective, how would you argue to save his life? Map that out.

O'MARA: It's very difficult. Very few percentages of death penalty eligible cases are pre-meditated. Normally, they're what we call felony murder cases. The felony occurs, the death happens. This is premeditated murder. That is the exception to the rule. And the presumption in most jurors' minds is you kill somebody with full intent and you get the worse penalty. The only way a defense can try to get away from the presumption that's there for death penalty is to try and show that Roof has been acting when there's some mental defect, some dysfunction. The problem with that argument is Roof himself, through his testimony, through his rantings, through his manuscript and confession, I think pretty much ended the possibility of some type of mental health defense, thereby, increasing the chances significantly that a jury will vote for death.

BALDWIN: We know the jury went home. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

Mark O'Mara, thank you so much.

O'MARA: Sure, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Next, who is the most powerful person in the world, Vladimir Putin or Donald Trump? "Forbes" releasing its list with a couple of surprises.

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[14:52:03] BALDWIN: Who is the most powerful person in the world? If you ask "Forbes" magazine, it's not Donald Trump -- not yet, at least. It is Russia's President Vladimir Putin in the top spot. Mr. Trump is at number two.

Let's talk to David Ewalt, "Forbes" managing editor.

Tell me, David Ewalt, how did you come to this conclusion? Why is it Putin?

DAVID EWALT, MANAGING EDITOR, FORBES MAGAZINE: Well, Putin is on top of the list for the fourth straight year in a row. We look a couple of different things to rank people, how many people they have power over, how much money, how they use their power. For Putin, this is a guy that has no real checks on his power. Whether it's annexing the Crimea, or what he's doing in Syria, or hacking Democratic and Republican Party servers in the United States, he seems to get away with it, and there's no one really stopping him. BALDWIN: Might Trump usurp Putin once he puts his hand on the Bible?

EWALT: We've had American presidents in the past. Last year, Barack Obama was number two with Putin still at number one. And the thinking there is Barack Obama has a system of checks and balances. There's a Congress and judiciary in the United States that keeps Obama from being too powerful. That system isn't in place in Russia.

BALDWIN: I remember the interview Donald Trump did with NBC. He was very pleased to be "Time" magazine's Person of the Year. Are you checking his Twitter feed to see his thoughts for "Forbes?"

EWALT: There could be a little ego bruise perhaps for not being number one, but I wouldn't complain about being number two on a list like this. Maybe he would.

BALDWIN: What about women? You have number three, Germany's Angela Merkel, German chancellor. The Federal Reserve chair, Janet Yellen at number six. Had Hillary Clinton won, might she have the number two spot? Talk about the ladies.

EWALT: A number of ladies fell off this year, one of them being Hillary Clinton. If she had won the election, she probably would be number two at least. We do see Janet Yellen as high ranking on the list. This is a woman who really is the primary market mover in the world, meaning she's in charge of monetary policy.

(CROSSTALK)

EWALT: And she's such a steady hand over monetary policy. This is only the second time she's done that. And very smooth and very controlling over monetary policy.

Angela Merkel always ranks very high, too, because she is really the last bastion of liberalism in Europe and is the face and head of the E.U. at this point.

BALDWIN: The list of the most powerful people in the world according to "Forbes" magazine.

David Ewalt, thank you for swinging by.

EWALT: Thank you.

[14:54:29] BALDWIN: Next, tributes are pouring in for one of America's favorite TV dads.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN THICKE, ACTOR: Ben, what are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Watching Carol flirt with some guy, and he's not Bobby.

(LAUGHTER)

THICKE: Well, that's none of your -- what guy?

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I don't know, but I think he's a little weird.

THICKE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: He's interested in Carol.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The man who appeared in our living rooms as the dad on "Growing Pains" has passed away suddenly. 69-year-old Alan Thicke played Dr. Jason Seaver on the '80s sitcom. He died after reportedly stuffing a heart attack while playing hockey with his 19-year-old son.

The ice rink manager explained what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANN MATHEWSON, ICE RINK MANAGER: We were worried THAT he was having a heart attack but he was breathing, he was talking. They got him up on the gurney, they went to take him out, he gave us a thumb's up. He looked at his kid and said, "Hey, wait, take a picture of me. Make sure you get the rink in the background."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Thicke's most famous son, R&B and pop singer, Robin Thicke, posted a touching tribute on Instagram writing, "My father passed away today. He was the best man I ever knew, the best friend I ever had. Let's all rejoice and celebrate the joy he brought to every room he was in. We love you, Alan Thicke. Thank you for your love. Love, your grateful son."

We continue on. Top of the hour. This is CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

24 hours ago, there was a window of hope for civilians inside of Syria's largest city. With word of a ceasefire, they thought there would be a chance to us scape, but with the crack of artillery fire, their window to freedom slammed shut.

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(EXPLOSIONS)

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BALDWIN: Pro-government forces said to be dropping another round of bombs in renewing a four-year-long battle for Aleppo. The future of some 50,000 people trapped inside the city remains unclear.

Here's what we do know --