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Report: U.S. Officials Say at Least 75% of ISIS Soldiers Killed; Defense Rests in Roof Trial; College Professor in Hiding After Trump Remarks. 3:30-4p ET
Aired December 14, 2016 - 15:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:30:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, same to you. Quickly, on the number, 75 percent.
JAMES MARKS, MAJOR GENERAL (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Right.
BALDWIN: I want to say that's huge and significant but how do they know 75 percent versus 15 percent and how many fighters are on the battlefield?
MARKS: Well, first of all don't celebrate, the attrition of 75 percent is very much -- it's a qualitative estimate, it has some science behind it but you also have to do some assessments and analysis that speaks to capabilities and intentions so the numbers might be reduced but they still have a desire to expand and do other things. Keep in mind this is like a bucket under a faucet and the faucet is on and there's a hole on the bottom. So, there's attrition where numbers are coming out but there's recruitment where people are coming back in.
So, 75 percent, the caliphate has a defined geography to it. There have been places where they have been very strong. They have been forced to move and their numbers have been attritted. So, there is quite a bit of art in this assessment this takes place but there is some science that goes into that and you can get into numbers and capabilities and you can look at it.
BALDWIN: But to be clear we're not talking ISIS leaders, these are --
MARKS: Workers.
BALDWIN: Fighters on the battlefield.
MARKS: Correct.
BALDWIN: What will it take to ultimately neutralize all of ISIS?
MARKS: Well, we are not ever going to neutralize an ideology. Remember, ISIS is an ideology. As you attrit and shrink the caliphate where they are physically located in Syria and Iraq recruitment is taking place in your neighborhood, in Europe, we know that, we see that, it's very cynically being done online so we are never going to completely defeat this ideology. It will remain there has to be an alternative and resistance from within but where this physical caliphate exists we've done a good job with our air efforts, we have some coalition partners going after them and there has been real difficulty so when you look at the pieces of terrain and in order for ISIS to do what it is doing in each of these specific locations you can do some estimates.
BALDWIN: If you're going to own this amount of size, this is about the number of folks that are there, workers. But thinking ahead to the next administration because we heard an interview with Fareed Zakaria and President Obama saying it was one of the smartest decisions he made based upon a bad number of options but you know what Mr. Trump said so far, we know he's also getting briefed by one of the generals. What do you think will happen looking ahead post- -- in a post-January 20 era?
MARKS: There are things we can do that have probably been placed on the table, we know who those leaders are in our national security -- our current national security apparatus, we know who they are. I know who they are they have probably put on the table a number of options that have been discounted for a whole bunch of reasons. Totally get that. One of those could be very legitimately you've seen we've incrementally increased our presences in places like both Afghanistan and Iraq.
That's a bad strategy you don't want to continue to increase and increase. You want to create a force that's available and as you describe a menu of options to go after ISIS. That means we have to have increased special forces ability -- not numbers necessarily -- but ability with very short legs to go from some form of sanctuary let's say in Iraq and directly into targets in Syria and then recycle, much like general McChrystal did with his joint special operations command in Iraq many years ago, where you got intelligence and you could turn quickly. We don't have that capability, we have a strategic capability that becomes an option.
BALDWIN: Okay. Spider Marks, General Marks, thank you so much.
MARKS: Thank you, Brooke, very much.
BALDWIN: New developments here in the murder trial unfolding in Charleston, South Carolina, the defense today has rested. Why the suspect chose not to testify in his own defense. This as the court hears gripping testimony from a survivor from that bible study room. We have new video of this man at target practice ahead of this attack. We'll be right back.
[15:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: The South Carolina jury hearing the death penalty case against the man charged with murdering nine black Parishioners inside a Charleston historic Mother Emanuel A.M. church could get the case tomorrow. Closing arguments will begin after six days of graphic gut wrenching testimony. On the stand, today the one survivor who the shooter said he would not kill, Polly Sheppard. She testified she was actually praying out loud during this massacre. She dialed 911, begging for help. I was in Charleston just a couple months ago, and I spoke with her and several others in that community this is what she shared with me. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: Before you retired, you were a nurse in that detention center.
POLLY SHEPPARD, CHARLESTON CHURCH MASSACRE SURVIVOR: Yes.
BALDWIN: Where he's being held.
SHEPPARD: Uh-huh.
BALDWIN: So, had you not retired you could be tending to this man.
SHEPPARD: And I would.
BALDWIN: You would?
SHEPPARD: He would get the best care I could give him.
BALDWIN: How would you find the grace in your heart to do that?
SHEPPARD: You can't fight evil with evil. Love overcomes everything.
BALDWIN: What's your message to folks who are struggling with this, the rhetoric is so full of hate right now.
SHEPPARD: If Congress didn't do anything when they killed those children at Sandy Hook, they're not going to do anything now. What does anyone need with a gun that shoots 10 to 18 rounds at a time? And we need gun control. Too many mass killings back to back. We can do better.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: With me now to talk about this case, senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, the fact the defense rested, I was talking to Mark O'Mara last hour. He couldn't believe how quickly they rested. How do you feel about it?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think there's much the defense can do in this case. This is a horrific open-and-shut case. I think the only issue in this case is whether Dylann Roof gets the death penalty there I think he almost certainly will. That will be in the penalty phase. Here in the guilt phase I think the defense lawyers worry that by putting on end here they could just insult the jury's intelligence. This is not a who done it. This is not a mystery about who did this shooting.
BALDWIN: This is a "if he gets put to death."
TOOBIN: Right. And that will be a separate -- the way death penalty cases work is you have the guilt phase which is a foregone conclusion what the result will be, and then they'll move to the penalty phase and there will be some kind of strategy on the part of the defense and there will be some witnesses there but this case is so horrific. Sheppard who you interviewed, that sort of grace and serenity, all I can say is it's a model to us all but one I sure couldn't follow.
BALDWIN: I know. I know. We spent two days interviewing some pretty incredible people and I just sat there in silence. But with regard to the next phase, the penalty phase and whether or not he gets put to death, how did the defense -- how did they present the case that, you know, his life should be spared?
TOOBIN: Well, just to put it mildly, it's not easy. If they can, the defense will point to aspects of Dylann Roof's background. If he has some terrible family history, if he has some trauma in his background that may explain this rage. That's the kind of thing that often comes up in a penalty phase. Some sort of not an excuse but his life went so wrong but it's not like the defense has an abundance of good arguments and they'll pick one to present to the jury. It's horrendous case. He's obviously guilty.
BALDWIN: But Jeff Toobin, there are a number of family members connected to this case who don't believe he should be put to death. They take that into consideration at all?
TOOBIN: It's very possible. They have said that publicly. I'm not sure they would be willing to testify on the witness stand there are lots of people in the world who don't believe in the death penalty. More and more Americans don't. But this is what's called a death- qualified jury. That mean this is a jury that consists entirely of people who will at least consider supporting the death penalty. And in a group like that I do not know what persuades them not to impose the death penalty. If not in this case when would you impose it?
BALDWIN: Jeff Toobin, thank you. Coming up next, a college professor says she was forced into hiding after she was caught in her classroom ranting about President-elect Trump. This is a story that has divided this college campus. We'll discuss next.
[15:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: A college professor has gone into hiding after she spoke out against Donald Trump in class and the hateful backlash she has received has triggered an intense debate over what can and cannot be said on a college campus. CNN's Kyung Lah explains what the professor was caught on camera saying.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OLGA COX, PROFESSOR, ORANGE COAST COLLEGE: Our nation is divided. We have been assaulted.
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's professor Olga Cox secretly recorded lecturing to her Orange Coast College students not on the day's lesson but Trump's election.
COX: It's an act of terrorism, one of the most frightening things for me and most people in my life is that the people committing the assault are among us.
LAH: The professor's words spoken in her class on human sexuality and recorded shortly after the election is now fuel for conservatives outnumbered on this liberal California campus.
JOSH RECALDE-MARTINEZ, ORANGE COAST COLLEGE REPUBLICANS: We obviously feel that at times we're ignored, our opinions don't matter, they should not be void, they should not be facing ridicule.
LAH: The college's Republican Club posted the two-minute video from the anonymous student. Fury followed. In threatening e-mails to professor Cox "we'll put a bullet in your face. People like you will be the first ones slaughtered."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: So, Kyung also reports the professor's union says she has now moved out of state and it's not clear if she will return. With me now, Trump supporter Harlan Hill, a political consultant and CNN political commentator Sally Kohn, also the columnist for the Daily Beast. Once upon a time you were on team Bernie and now two paths have diverged.
SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Boy, have they.
BALDWIN: Do you think the professor went too far?
HARLAN HILL, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I do. I think she peddled in this line that's prevalent on the left which is that Donald Trump is a white supremacist that appeals to racists and homophobes and I think that's dangerous rhetoric. Now she doesn't deserve these debt threats, there's nothing she could say that would warrant the response she's getting. Though I will say, I will say --
KOHN: But?
HILL: I will say that, you know, the student has received similar threats as well for putting this clip online. They were threatened with expulsion from the school originally. So, there's a lot of -- to take issue with on both sides of this.
KOHN: Being threatened with expulsion, I don't know what the school's policy are, but that's not the same as death threats.
BALDWIN: I totally agree.
KOHN: And let's be clear, I don't need to defend, I don't want to defend what this teacher said, her timing for saying it, we don't know the context. That doesn't matter. What's most interesting here is I spent the entire year hearing from conservatives that liberals are impeding and quashing free speech on campuses. Donald Trump ran his campaign ostensibly against political correctness, against people being told what to say and how to say it.
And now here's someone expressing her opinion, if you don't like it, fine, I 100 percent support the right of the students to protest, call for her to be fired, have that debate and discussion but death threats? And let's be clear, I know people on the right and left who did not support Trump who have gotten an increase in death threats and all kinds of hate -- BALDWIN: Would you feel if this was eight years ago and the chunk of
conservatives --
KOHN: Free speech is free speech.
BALDWIN: They were nervous and they were anxious and they didn't like it President Obama coming on.
[15:50:00] Would you feel the same if it was a teacher speaking ill about Obama?
KOHN: Of course, the difference between liking what someone says and protecting their right to say it is, I think, pretty plain in this country. And again, the first amendment doesn't protect -- and I don't mean -- if this is a public school and all of that, it's a larger issue but I am talking about the spirit of the first amendment. That we don't discourage speech just because we don't like it. We certainly don't give people death threats. I'm sorry I am going to come off this segment and have them too. It's
been all year.
HILL: I get them too.
KOHN: I'm sorry, but the rise in this under Trump -- listen, it is not -- the -- we should punch that protester in the face. And maybe that homeless man deserved to be kicked. That's him incentivizing and encouraging that nastiness in our society.
HILL: In all due respect, if the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the election of Donald Trump to be the President of the United States, you've lived a charmed life. That's what this professor said. She is in a position of authority trying to indoctrinate her students. I take issue with what she did.
KOHN: I am not defending what she did.
HILL: The response she has received is unwarranted. I think across many college campuses in the country this is accepted as the norm. I can remember, from my time at school, that I never had a conservative teacher in college. Never.
KOHN: When conservative teachers preach trickle-down economics or conservative economics or talk about the problem with the welfare state, this is about intellectual freedom. You don't have to agree with or endorse what the professor said. For instance, if she had been giving a speech about --
HILL: There is no intellectual diversity. That's the problem.
KOHN: Tackle that. Don't endorse threatening and intimidating because of what she said.
BALDWIN: There are calls for colleges as safe zones. Does that extend to what teachers are saying? I hear you, both sides. What about Donald Trump. He was supposed to be holding a news conference tomorrow -- he is our next President, Sally. It's important we talk about him.
KOHN: I know.
BALDWIN: Tomorrow he is supposed to have a news conference to explain how this is going to work, divesting company. He has a stake in hundreds of places around the world. We now have seen that he has pushed that off and that Don Jr. helped in a cabinet pick with the interior secretary. Which is leaving liberals concerned.
HILL: First let's say that -- let's acknowledge that Trump's kids are his most trusted, competent advisers. Thank god, he surrounded himself with his children because I think that they're a positive influence on him.
KOHN: Hang on a second. My 8-year-old is a positive influence on me, but I don't bring her in to consult on issues of foreign policy and worldly decision-making.
BALDWIN: Tell me how it's not a conflict of interest.
HILL: First of all, he is not President of the United States yet. Look, if they're still running his business and they are advising him day to day, sitting in on meetings when he is President of the United States after inauguration day, I might have issue with that.
BALDWIN: I am just trying to understand that if Don Jr. is making calls and doing interviews for a cabinet pick is that not shaping the administration?
HILL: In these early days, yes. But there is no conflict of interest they haven't breached the law in any way. If we pass the inauguration and this is still happening I think that we could have a discussion here. Right now, seems very premature.
KOHN: So, he was going to have a press conference, presumably to say he is stepping away from his business and giving it to his two sons.
HILL: Correct.
KOHN: We can, I think, safely assume that the reason he postponed said press conference is because his sons, who presumably will now autonomously be not in relation to his governing, are involved in governing decisions in laying out his presidency, which is breaking some rules which -- I'm sorry. I can't help every day but think what would have happened if Barack Obama had done a comparable thing. What would have happened if Hillary Clinton had been elected and done a comparable thing.
HILL: She did do a comparable thing in the state department.
KOHN: The atrocities, the attacks, the outrage from the right would be unparalleled. I understand you think Barack Obama in 2008 was unqualified to be president but now --
BALDWIN: It's true. If Hillary Clinton was sitting at the round table and we saw Chelsea Clinton, heads would have exploded.
HILL: Hillary Clinton had conflicts of interest at the state department. She continued to have a role in the Clinton foundation. There were communications between her staff AND the state department and --
KOHN: It's a charitable foundation. It is different than running a business.
HILL: It enriched her family and friends. It's just as good as a business.
BALDWIN: Let's give Trump the benefit of the doubt that he has a legal team and they're trying to work through it. He is supposed to hold a news conference.
Final question to you, sir. How confident are you that be crystal- clear what's happening with his business and the white house and his family and that it's like this?
HILL: He has surrounded himself with some of the best lawyers on the planet and I think they'll be very clear about the roles of his sons and whoever is in the administration.
BALDWIN: Harlan and Sally. I see your face.
[15:55:00] KOHN: It's going to be beautiful.
BALDWIN: OK.
Next. Next. He has waged a brutal war on drugs and has taken power in June. The killing admission from the President of the Philippines saying he's personally killed in cold blood to set an example.
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