Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Dylan Roof has found guilty in the shooting in Emmanuel AME Church; President-elect Donald Trump cutting ties with at least some of his businesses overseas as he faces serious concerns about conflicts of interest; Evacuations are finally getting under away in eastern Aleppo; Aired 3:00-3:30p ET

Aired December 15, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Keep in mind, this confession video is some two hours in length but the jurors apparently specifically wanted to watch the part - rewatch the part where this young man answers a question about how many people he thinks he shot, So here is that part of the tape confession.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I told you nine people died last night. How would that make you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't believe you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was nine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There wasn't even nine people there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was just a little bit over nine. But it's hard when you're looking at the tables.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said when you went in there you said six, eight, you weren't certain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you guys lying to me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We're not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's sort of complicated because they were all like under the table. Do you see what I am saying? It's not like I was like, you know, going around shooting people that were already dead or anything like that. It's just when I shot a magazine it is like I just went --, see what I'm saying. Like at one person, you see what I'm saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So when you started shooting, I guess, you saying yourself like shooting because maybe they didn't see where it was coming from?

(INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Everybody knew.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then you went around the tables to shoot them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not exactly. Because there is something (INAUDIBLE). I think there's two people that I didn't shoot at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That apparently is the piece that the jury wanted to rewatch. They are deliberating 33 federal counts that include hate crime and religious destruction charges.

So let's begin here. Danny Cevallos is with me, criminal defense attorney and civil rights attorney Ariva Martin is with us as well.

Danny, let me just turn to you here because most lawyers that I have talk to has said this deliberation will not last long. Why do you think they have asked for this specific piece of video?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's always -- it is like reading tea leaves to figure out what jurors are doing during deliberations because when we often guess as attorneys, as often times we are wrong. The general rule of thumb is a short deliberation process is a guilty verdict but even that rule is riddled with exceptions. In a case like this, why are they looking at the video? They may be looking to his words to see what kind of racial animus there was to the extent they are trying to decide whether hate crimes occurred. But other than that, there can be no doubt as to causation and intent in this case.

BALDWIN: I mean, Ariva, he confessed?

AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes. I think that's what's puzzling, the fact that they have already been in deliberations for a couple of hours and they're asking for additional evidence. But I agree with Danny. This is not your usual murder case. This is a case involving nine people who were killed, 33 federal counts all of which or most of which carry the death penalty. So the jurors know if they determine or come back with a guilty verdict that doesn't end this. There's then the penalty phase. And the penalty phase is going to be about whether he lives or dies. So this l take a lot of time and they would be very careful in their deliberations because they want to get it right.

BALDWIN: Before we talk about closing arguments today and we are talking about facts and count. I think it's important just to hear someone's raw emotion. We are about to hear the 911 call from Polly Sheppard. She is the one who survived who apparently this gunman said to her I'm allowing you to live to tell the story. And she called 911 and she was huddled under this table as he was shooting left and right. It is tough to listening to but it's such an important piece of this whole story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POLLY SHEPPARD, SURVIVOR (on the phone): Please help us, oh, God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what's the address of the emergency?

SHEPPARD: Please, Emanuel Church, there's many people shot down here, send somebody right away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Emanuel church.

SHEPPARD: Emanuel AME, 110 Calhoun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there's people shot?

SHEPPARD: Yes, he shot the pastor. He shot all the men in this church. Please come right away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, my partner is going to be getting some help on the way while I get a little bit more information from you, OK. Stay on the line with me. Are you safe?

SHEPPARD: He's still in here. I'm afraid. He's still here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you?

SHEPPARD: I'm at Emanuel AME church --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma'am. But where are you inside the church.

SHEPPARD: In the lower level.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are in the lower level. Where is the shooter?

SHEPPARD: He's in the office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma'am. I have officers enroot to you. Don't hang up with me. I want you to stay on the line with me. You stay as quiet as possible.

SHEPPARD: We, I'm under the table.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your name ma'am?

SHEPPARD: Polly Sheppard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Miss Polly. Like I said my partner is getting some help on the way while I get this information from you, OK. You stay on the line with me.

SHEPPARD: He's coming. He's coming, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did you see him at all?

SHEPPARD: Yes, he is a young 21-year-old white dude. Please, we have got people very hurt, please.

[15:05:05] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma'am. And you said that you were able to see the gun? Do you know what kind of gun it was? SHEPPARD: No. I don't know. I don't know anything about guns.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, that's OK. And where are the weapons now?

SHEPPARD: He's got it in his hand. He's reloading.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many shots has he fired?

SHEPPARD: I don't know. There's so many. Three different rounds of all kinds. God, please help me. Please help us, Lord. Help us, Lord, please. Jesus, Lord, please help us. There's so many people dead, I think. Oh, my God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said there's so many people dead?

SHEPPARD: I think they are dead, yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: I just want to take all of us in the room.

Danny, from a defense perspective, we know in closing, you know, they were trying to argue he was suicidal and impressionable influence by all this racist hatred online. How much was that was really a setup for the penalty phase?

CEVALLOS: It was all a set up for the penalty phase. In a case like this, especially a case like this, with the evidence that is so strong, an attorney's role is not to seek a not guilty verdict. He has to be realist. He or she has to consider the penalty phase. Don't take inconsistent positions at the trial and then at the sentencing phase don't do a, some other guy did it, defense at trial. And then turn around and say, well, this person was delusional. They had family problems.

You have to keep your eye in a case like this as a defense attorney on the sentencing phase, the penalty phase. Be consistent and demonstrate to this jury in any way you can that this person's life is somehow worth redemption.

BALDWIN: Areva, just last question to you. You know, what stood out for you? We know that those mental health experts, about that request was rejected by the judge. The prosecution says you can't think about his mental health, that's for his t next phase whether he lives or dies. What did you make of today?

MARTIN: Yes. I think what is going to be interesting is we know Dylan Roof doesn't want that expert team of lawyers to even represent him in the penalty phase. And what we are hearing is the reason he does this is because he doesn't even want evidence introduced in to that phase suggesting he has a mental health issue.

He has made a confession and he stood by it. He killed these people because they are African-American, because he wanted to start a race war, because he was upset and angry about African-Americans and their condition in this country. And that's the way he wants the penalty phase of this trial to proceed. So I don't know if we will ever hear any information about his mental health particularly if he represents himself during that penalty phase.

BALDWIN: We watch and wait to see how long it takes this jury to deliberate.

(INAUDIBLE), Areva, and Danny, thank you so much for now. We are on standby for that.

Also, let's move on because we have some new just in to us. President-elect Donald Trump cutting ties with at least some of his businesses overseas as he faces serious concerns about conflicts of interest.

CNN's Drew Griffin joins me on the phone.

Drew Griffin, what have you learned?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (on the phone): This is being called house cleaning by Trump's business attorney, Alan Garten, Brooke. Basically, they have ended all their projects which are licensed projects, branded projects, in Rio de Janeiro. They were building a hotel there under the Trump brand and a five office building complex in a government-sponsored for redevelopment area. All those deals, according to Garten, have been terminated, terminated under the applicable agreement, he called them.

Also terminated was a really shuttered project that is Baku, Azerbaijan. This was a hotel, a Trump branded hotel that has basically been shuttered for many, many months, maybe longer than that. The developer seems to have run out of money. Garten just confirmed to me that Baku project has also been separated from the Trump organization.

They're easy to do. The Trump organization holds on to its brand pretty, pretty strictly so they can look for any violation of the agreements to terminate them. In Rio there have been a couple of government and prosecutors dealing with various loans and other business investigations with both of those projects there in Azerbaijan. It looks like the developer just flatly ran out of money.

But again Trump's attorney calling this house cleaning. Obviously this is house cleaning getting ready for when president-elect Trump becomes president -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, three house cleaning deals overseas.

Drew, thank you again.

Just a reminder, today was supposed to be the day Mr. Trump held a news conference telling all of us how he would be distancing himself from his businesses, that has been postponed to January date TBD.

More breaking news today. Evacuations are under way in Aleppo, Syria, where this fragile cease-fire appears to be holding bus after bus, ambulance after ambulance, tens of thousands waiting to escape. We just heard from secretary of state John Kerry with some blistering words for the governments not just of Syria but their friends in Russia as well, calling this a massacre and a slaughter. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:13:36] BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. We are following news out of Syria. Evacuations are finally getting under away in eastern Aleppo. We just heard from U.S. secretary of state John Kerry commenting on the situation just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think I have to elaborate but I'm going to certainly focus on the anger and the anguish that everybody feels or most people feel about the continued relentless and inexcusable attacks that have been directed at the civilian population in Aleppo, including women, children, humanitarian workers and medical personnel. And there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the indiscriminate and savage brutality against civilians shown by the regime and by its Russian and Iranian allies over the past few weeks or indeed the past five years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: A fragile new cease-fire getting off to a rocky start with activists saying regime forces have already fired on ambulance convoys. There is still fears that people in these buses and ambulances will not arrive to that safe location alive.

Lines of green buses the backdrop. Look at other side of the road. Just utter devastation. The epicenter of the regime's battle against the rebels who are trying to topple President Bashar Al Assad.

We just show you also two pictures. Look to the left and the right of your screen. This is before and after of this thriving city. The aftermath of years of destruction, bombs raining down day after day. A groundhog day in hell. And these are the same headlines we have been bringing to you for years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:15:24] BALDWIN: Bloodshed, massacres and fear. This is what people living in Syria have been dealing with for nearly 18 months.

Syrian state media reporting chemical weapons have been strapped to a missile and fired on civilians in Aleppo province, killing at least 25 people and injuring dozens more.

Today the U.S. denying America's accusations that they bombed the war torn city of Aleppo inside Syria. And as the brutal war there escalates, families are running for their lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Whether today's cease-fire finally means lasting change remains to be seen. Let's go to Fred Pleitgen who was just inside of Syria. He is in

Lebanon now.

But Fred, we know that they are moving these civilians to the province of Idlib which is another rebel held area. And likely the regime's next are for recapture. So aren't they essentially fleeing this dangerous zone in Aleppo for another war zone elsewhere?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly what's happening, Brooke. And it seems as though what the Assad government is trying to do not just in Aleppo but in other places as well is it's trying to besiege the rebels that are in those major cities, surround them, essentially starve them because there is no supplies getting into those places and then offer them at the end, offer them the choice, either they can be continue to bombed or they can leave to this place, Idlib province, which they have done with other cities as well.

So essentially what's going on is that all those rebel fighters and many of those civilians are being bunched up in that one province while the Assad government continues to take back the major cities of Syria. It has several reasons why they are doing that. One of them is, of course, they need a lot of forces concentrated in places like Aleppo to continue those sieges, to continue those battles. And once those rebels and once those civilians are out, they can use those forces in other places. But you're absolutely right. You are basically only shifting these people from one war zone to the next.

Now what they can do in Idlib province, the civilians, at least, is they can get to other places. They can try to get to Turkey. They can try to get to places that are controlled by Turkish forces and possibly get out of the way of bombings there. But in the end these people that are being evacuated today, they are out of harm's way for the moment. They are safe for the moment. But they are just going into another war zone where it's only a matter of time before that Syrian war catches up with them there as well, Brooke.

BALDWIN: According to the international committee of the Red Cross, at least 3,000 people have been brought out of eastern Aleppo during the first two evacuations.

Fred, thank you so much.

Meantime, people just inside of Aleppo. They are sick of just surviving. A heartbreaking video here is now surfacing of these young orphans pleading for the world's help. A 10-year-old boy saying this might be his last message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YASMEAN KAIMOUZ, 10-YEAR-OLD (through text): Hi. This might be the last time you see and hear from me. My name is Yasmean Kaimouz, and I am 10-years-old. We are scared on the air strikes. We wish you will get us out of Aleppo. We want to live like everyone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: The man who helped share this video to the world is a former Aleppo citizen himself, he is Doctor Ahmad Tarakji, a heart surgeon. President of Syrian-American medical society and he is with me now.

Dr. Tarakji, thank you for taking time.

DR. AHMAD TARAKJI, PRESIDENT, SYRIAN-AMERICAN MEDICAL SOCIETY (on the phone): Thank you, Brooke, for the opportunity.

BALDWIN: I understand you are talking hourly to a man who is managing just the medical evacuations in eastern Aleppo. What is he telling you now?

TARAKJI: Unfortunately, as you mentioned earlier, it's a chaotic situation in eastern Aleppo right now. The -- what would be the least situation in this humanitarian crisis to have some orderly process is also under mine as of the nation (INAUDIBLE) with you earlier.

On the other hand, the patients who arrive to the western part of the southern of Aleppo, countryside will receive on that part. We have received so far two convoys. And the process over there is well organized between the NGOs, WHO, and other authorities to allow appropriate evaluation of the patients, their needs and appropriate triage.

But unfortunately, as you said, even at the time of the displacement, post of the displacement, out of eastern Aleppo, people are being punished. Not only by targeting them directly as we have seen earlier this morning but also by really punishing them, no order at all whatsoever. And they are paying a very high price just because they stayed home over the last four or five years at the time of the conflict.

[15:20:19] BALDWIN: You know, we heard from Secretary Kerry saying at least one convoy had been fired upon. Can I ask you, doctor, just about the little orphans we saw in that video? How are they?

TARAKJI: I'm -- it does break my heart to see this video and that's all of us and at this time we're trying to get them out of eastern Aleppo. It's a very complicated process you would think humanitarian values would be respected. And unfortunately it's unpredictable as the workers from the civil defense who are trying to open up the road for the humanitarian evacuations were shot at this morning and were killed. And every single thing is very unpredictable until they make the western countryside of Aleppo. So we are hopeful that they will make their way over there. We pray for them. I ask everybody to join us praying for them. But certainly the suffering you see from those children is not a random process. It's unfortunately the result of disruption from the humanitarian order. And internationally humanitarian order.

What is going on right now I think will last -- it will have an effect that will last for so many years in the international community when we see those massacres and shooting on civilians is showing the infrastructures. I think the effect will last for so many years to come. And unfortunately, with lack of accountability and lack of ability of the humanitarian workers to do what they best do.

BALDWIN: The world is watching.

Dr. Tarakji, thank you so much for taking the time.

I know so many of you have reached out. How can you help? You can help - we, here at CNN have vetted a number of organizations in the effort helping those Syrian civilians. Just go to CNN.com/impact.

Just in to CNN, president-elect Donald Trump reacting to reports of Russia hacking during the presidential election. What a Trump source revealing to CNN about why the president-elect is now expressing concern.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:24:29] BALDWIN: All right, breaking news here in this trial, essentially life or death for this racist who walked into mother Emmanuel AME church in Charleston, South Carolina, June 17, 2015, and opened fire on men and women sitting in a bible study room praying with their eyes closed.

We know have a guilty. The verdict has been reached, guilty in the case of this man whose name I refuse to utter.

Let's see. I just got handed this. The jury has found him guilty on counts one through 12 for last year's massacre.

I have got a couple of lawyers with me. Just bring them in. Danny Cevallos, Areva Martin, Randy Zelin.

Danny, you said you thought it would be quick and it was.

[15:25:14] CEVALLOS: I said I thought it would be quick. I said I thought it would be guilty verdicts. But I don't want any credit for that because I think many people felt that way. I think that was the heavy favorite in this case.

BALDWIN: I mean, they had it for not even two hours, Randy. They came back, the jurors came back, they asked one question. They specifically wanted to rewatch the confession tape where their FBI is sitting around a table with him and they were telling him he had murdered nine people. He thought it had been fewer.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense, I think, consciously chose not to put on a case so from the standpoint of wrongdoing there really was not much to question. I would respectfully suggest that this case was not tried for the guilt, it's been tried for the sentence to try to avoid the death penalty.

BALDWIN: Talk about that a little bit more because the penalty phase is the next phase. It wasn't necessarily whether he did it or not. I mean, you have to video where he confessed. It didn't comes to whether or not his life can be spared or not. And so the defense attorney is already planting the seed in the jurors' minds for that next phase. ZELIN: It's a credibility issue. What you do as a defense attorney,

you're basically saying to the jury, look, I'm not going to insult your intelligence, I'm not going to try to convince you that my client didn't do this because if I do that and I fail, I have no credibility with you. So I'm going to save that moment. I'm going to choose my battle and I will come to you and beg you -- not that he didn't do it but I'm going to come to beg you to spare his life. And you should believe me when I say that.

BALDWIN: Areva, to you quickly -- not there yet.

OK, Danny, so already looking ahead because so much of this, of course, is about whether or not he is put to death. And again, this is the federal trial. I think the state case begins some time mid- January. So there is a possibility he could be sentenced to death two times over. It's a matter what have the date is, am I wrong?

CEVALLOS: No, that's correct. In the sentencing phase, in this case, in this federal case, most sentencing happen months out. But in death penalty cases, they happen within a day or two. There's no need to do a pre-sentence investigation. This case will proceed very promptly to the penalty phase of the trial.

BALDWIN: So walking through part of the closing argument, Randy, from the defense, that lawyer stood up there and talked to the jury and said he was suicidal, that he was an impressionable loaner, everything he was doing was just an imitation of somewhere else put it online, the online hatred he got from the internet. What was he trying to do there?

ZELIN: Trying to plants, as you said. Trying to plant the seeds for the penalty phase because in the penalty phase we get into something called aggravating factors and mitigating factors.

BALDWIN: Explain that.

ZELIN: What happens is that the jury in deciding whether or not he should get the death penalty has to look at aggravating factors, the bad things, for example was this a particularly heinous crime that was committed? Were there particularly vulnerable victims? Those are examples of aggravating factors. Then you have mitigating factors, was there something about his childhood, his upbringing, was he abused, is he suffering from some kind of mental defect? Not so much that he is insane, but so much where we have to question do we kill him for this. So the defense attorney was planting the seeds of this is a kid who is messed up and not a kid who should be treated as let's just kill him.

BALDWIN: Before we move on, actually, on coloring the courtroom, just talking to reporters, apparently he has sat there day in and day out. His own mother had a heart attack last week, his grandparents who were sitting in the courtroom, but he has been sitting there emotionless. When you are a juror sitting in a courtroom, listening and seeing horrific images of bloody bodies flashed up and you see this person emotionless, how much do you take that into account? CEVALLOS: You bring up a good point. Jurors are people watchers.

They are watching everybody. Everybody from the bailiff to the judge and of course the defendant. And when there is horrific evidence being displayed for them, they're looking at him to see how he reacts and they're judging them. After all it is their job. So they are looking - it is a very difficult thing because you can tell your client just sit there and look appealing or not guilty. But you know, some defendants don't do themselves any favors. When they sit and they look dispassionate about some horrific evidence that is being shown to a jury.

ZELIN: By the same token, though, and you make a great point, but we have to remember something, that video confession was the epitome of someone who understood exactly what he was doing, why he was doing it, and didn't care. So then to portray him during the guilt phase as something else -- again, if I'm a defense attorney and I'm sensitive to your point, by the same token, I'm thinking about the credibility. And I want to save my credibility when I'm trying to convince them not to kill him. So perhaps it was not the worst strategy in the world to let him be who he is. Let's not try to insult the jury's intelligence to suddenly now is chuck full of emotions and regret and remorse --