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Kavanaugh and Ford Hearing; Top Republican on Hearings; Senators Prepare for Hearing; Senators to Watch at Hearing. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired September 27, 2018 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Didn't have the same one back in 1991 because he had spoken so much sort of in terms of his own personal identity, whereas the personal identity that we had seen of Brett Kavanaugh was quite evasive to this point. So that's -- that's a difficult measure for him.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I -- the great wildcard I think in this -- in this hearing is Rachel Mitchell, the prosecutor, because who's the defendant here? Who is she going to cross examine in an aggressive way? Because both of them have vulnerabilities to a real cross-examination.

Ms. Blasey Ford, you say, so what house was it? You don't know. What date was it? You don't know. Who else was present? You don't know. I mean you could make her look bad.

You could also go to Brett Kavanaugh and say, let's go through your yearbook. Tell me what each of these entries mean. The 100 Keg Club. You know, the Renati (ph) Alumni. You know, this -- it's -- you know, and it's not being on trial for having a vulgar yearbook entry. It's whether the yearbook entry corroborates a drunken assault that took place at that very time.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: And, Ariane de Vogue, people in Kavanaugh's corner look at the fact that we're even talking about his yearbook entries from 1982, '83, his behavior in college his freshman year, as an example of just how ridiculous this process has become.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right. And the Brett Kavanaugh we saw on that Fox News interview was sort of robotic. He did not come across well. And they recognize that. And they say that you're going to see a different side because now he's mad. He feels like he had -- he's talked about the Christine Blasey Ford allegation and he's ready to. But now we're getting more of these anonymous allegations coming, and he is going to come out and say, look, this did not happen. This is twilight zone. And he's going to --

TOOBIN: He's going to have a -- I'm sorry.

DE VOGUE: He's going to be mad, I think.

TOOBIN: He's going to have a new personality. That wasn't the personality, the real one. GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well --

TOOBIN: Now he's going to have a personality. And people are who they are.

BORGER: Can I just remind --

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes.

BORGER: Can I just remind everyone that when he worked for Ken Starr, he sent a memo, which I have here, to --

TAPPER: Remember, kids might be watching.

BORGER: To -- to Judge Starr (ph). I'm not going to read the questions that he told Judge Starr that he ought to ask President Clinton if he had a chance to -- to --

TAPPER: They were pretty graphic.

BORGER: To ask him. And they were graphic questions. And, so, if you see him angry at getting asked graphic questions, remember, remember that that was what he said to Judge Starr, you really ought to do. He said, the idea of going easy on him at the questioning is abhorrent to me.

TAPPER: And, Dana, Susan Collins, the Republican senator from Maine, who has really held her cards close to her vest on where -- how she is going to vote. She has made it very clear, it seems to me, that she's trying to get to yes. She's trying to get to a yes vote. She -- I believe she said the other day that she thinks Judge Kavanaugh, as a Supreme Court justice, would never vote to overturn Roe v. Wade, even though we know that that was one of President Trump's stated qualifications for his judicial picks.

Tell us what she is going through right now because I believe this is excruciating for her.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It seems to be, absolutely. First of all, she is going to be either in her office or in what's called the hide away -- some senators have small offices in the capital building -- glued to the television, watching every second of this.

We should note that if not for Susan Collins, this probably wouldn't be happening today because Republicans were adamant from Chuck Grassley, the chairman, to the senator majority leader, Mitch McConnell, that the vote was going to go on after these initial allegations came out and she came forward by name. And Susan Collins sent a tweet saying, no, no, we need to hear from them publically, which forced this hearing.

But it might not be enough. And I think we should really hone in on the reporting that Phil Mattingly just talked about in the last hour that he and Manu Raju heard from a critical meeting last night behind closed doors when Susan Collins said to fellow Republican chairman, wait a second, what about Mark Judge? What about getting other information? Because she is going to be in this position.

I mean all of us are looking at this, well, who's more credible? She's -- she's -- and the other 99 senators, but obviously she's one of the most critical, are going to have a make a decision based on that judgment call. And I would not be surprised, and based on my reporting, and I think John has some as well, if after this she says, we need to subpoena Mark Judge, the other person who allegedly was in the room or a part of this. And that would -- probably wouldn't come testify, but it would have the effect of slowing it down.

HENDERSON: Right. And what kind of company does she have with that, right?

BASH: Yes.

HENDERSON: Because you typically see Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski, if you think about the health care vote, they were together and they are getting tremendous pressure from back home. Folks, you know, sort of threatening to run against Collins in Maine. Murkowski, the governor of Alaska, coming out against Kavanaugh, some local groups as well. So there's a tremendous amount of pressure. And it will be interesting to see if, as we've seen in the past, they basically kind of do it together.

[09:35:20] JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And it comes to the credibility question. Let me read from the prepared testimony of Professor Ford.

Brett and Mark came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed on to the bed and Brett got on top of me.

So, to the point we made earlier about the Clarence Thomas hearings, the American people generally viewed it as a draw. Anita Hill was very compelling and credible. Clarence Thomas was very compelling and credible. How do you settle that?

Well, in today's world we know most people settle it through their political reflection, this polarized environment. If Susan Collins, with the help of Jeff Flake, Lisa Murkowski, or Ben Sasse says, slow down, she says there was someone else in the room, how can we not listen -- make that person answer questioning under oath before we proceed with a vote. Then Mitch McConnell's fast train timetable is off the track. If that gets off the track, this is in question anyway. If it gets off the track, it is even more in question.

TAPPER: And a point -- a point I've heard from Democrats on Capitol Hill is, Republicans push back -- I mean, sorry, Democrats push back when people like me say, doesn't Brett Kavanaugh deserve the presumption of innocence? They say, this is not a criminal trial, Jake Tapper. Why would you even ask such a question? But what Democrats say is, Republicans keep pushing that line, presumption of innocence, but they don't do what is also accompanying a criminal trial, which is the idea of a full investigation.

BORGER: Witnesses.

TAPPER: Other witnesses. So you can't -- they say you can't have it both ways.

BLITZER: That's an excellent point.

We're only moments away from this truly historic hearing. Christine Blasey Ford expecting to arrive in the hearing room any minute now. We're about to go live back to Capitol Hill for a top Republican senator's take on Judge Kavanaugh's nomination.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:11] BLITZER: Just moments away now from the historic testimonies of Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford before the Senate Judiciary Committee that could make or break Judge Kavanaugh's nomination to the United States Supreme Court.

TAPPER: People are now starting to arrive for the hearing.

Let's get right to CNN's Manu Raju. He's on Capitol Hill.

And, Manu, you just caught up with a top Republican. What did he tell you?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn, who sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Still expressing some optimism that Kavanaugh could get confirmed, even before this hearing. He told me that they're still very interested to hear what Christine Blasey Ford says. But this is what he said, Jake. He said, if it's no different than what she said in her letter, I'm optimistic that he will get 51 votes.

Now, what does that mean? That letter, of course, that Christine Blasey Ford wrote detailing her allegation. The Republicans believe if she sticks to that, that's enough to get her -- get him confirmed to the post and, at the end of the day, they believe they think it's a he said/she said and enough of their Republican senators will come on board to get him confirmed.

Of course, a lot of unknowns. We don't know how that's going to go. And so much anticipation in this building just behind me, scores of protesters and onlookers waiting to hear what's -- what the testimony is going to bring today. They won't be able to get near the hearing room. But, still, a lot of questions about what those -- some of those key senators, how they will view the testimony here at the end of the day.

Jake and Wolf.

TAPPER: Manu, thanks.

And our own Kaitlan Collins at the White House reports that both President Trump and Vice President Pence have phoned Brett Kavanaugh to offer him support.

Let's go down to CNN's Sunlen Serfaty. She's outside the hearing room.

Sunlen, tell us what you're seeing there.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, many senators, of course, arriving to this key hearing. We are seeing senators walk down the hallway. We just saw the chairman of this committee, Chuck Grassley, arrive and go into a back room of the committee hearing. He was asked what he's hoping for today, and he just said simply a fair hearing for everyone.

And certainly worth remembering that Chuck Grassley has so much pressure, oversized pressure on his shoulders today to construct a fair hearing as the chairman of this committee. And he has, at times over the last 48 hours, really shown signs of frustration as the back and forth and the fast moving developments have really engulfed him at times.

We also just saw a moment ago Republican Senator Jeff Flake from Arizona. Such a key voice in how this potentially proceeds. He is a Republican on this committee who has not yet decided about Brett Kavanaugh. He said -- went -- took to the Senate floor yesterday and gave a big speech to try to reset the narrative. He basically blasted both sides for politicizing, you know, the allegations around Brett Kavanaugh, for politicizing the allegation that Christine Blasey Ford has brought forward. So really trying to hit the reset button. He did not say anything going in. We asked him what he's looking for. Silence from Jake Flake.

BLITZER: All right, Sunlen, thanks very much.

In today's hearing room, all eyes will be on key members of the Senate Judiciary Committee as they hear testimony and form their decisions on the fate of Judge Brett Kavanaugh.

CNN's David Chalian is over at the magic wall for us.

So, David, break it all down for us.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, let me provide you a little bit of a scorecard or a bingo card, if you will. As you're watching the hearings today, some key senators to watch.

First of all, three of the senators that are on the committee today were on the committee back in 1991 when Anita Hill was testifying at the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. That's the chairman, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch of Utah and Pat Leahy of Vermont. So these guys are veterans at being, high stakes hearings like this.

Also, of course, the women on the committee are going to have a key voice here. They're all on the Democratic side. There are no female Republicans on the Judiciary Committee. Dianne Feinstein, the ranking member, Amy Klobuchar, Mazie Hirono and Kamala Harris of California. These four women, three of whom have real prosecutorial experience, are likely to have very prominent voices at the hearing today.

[09:45:20] Of course, potential presidential politics is never far away either. There were several members of the Judiciary Committee, Wolf, who are eyeing a possible run for the presidency in 2020. And big, high profile moments like this matter for them as they're trying to make national appeals. On the Democratic side you have Cory Booker, Kamala Harris and Senator Klobuchar. And on the Republican side, Ben Sasse of Nebraska, Jeff Flake of Arizona, who's retiring from the Senate, have hinted at the notion. In fact, Jeff Flake is soon headed back up to New Hampshire, that they may be looking at a potential 2020 run for the presidency. How they behave, no doubt they're going to have their future politics in mind as well.

Off of the committee, there are some key members to watch. We've been talking about these three all day leading into this crucial hearing, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Bob Corker, the retiring senator from Tennessee, and Susan Collins of Maine, critical votes here. This group of three Republican senators, that's the target for today's hearing in terms of swaying the outcome here in any way.

And, of course, don't forget the Democrats in those deep red states that voted for Neil Gorsuch. They're already on the record, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, Joe Manchin of West Virginal, Joe Donnelly of Indiana, voting for a Supreme Court justice that Donald Trump nominated. We will see if, indeed, they are just joining ranks with the Democrats when all is said and done after this hearing or if they also show that they're willing to break from their party on this.

All key senators to watch as we go into and out of today's historic wearing, Wolf.

TAPPER: All right, David Chalian, thank you so much.

Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh's historic hearing is now just moments away. We're going to soon see Professor Christine Blasey Ford live for the first time in that Senate hearing room.

Let's bring back our panel and talk about this and let's start with a couple new panelists.

Senator Rick Santorum, you've been through this process as a U.S. senator, although the nominees you voted for, this was certainly not as contentious as this has become. What are you going to be looking for today?

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I guess, you know, if I was a member sitting there, I would be looking at Dr. Ford as someone who is a, I hate to say this, but a pawn in a bigger chess game. And that -- and I'd be sympathetic, frankly, because this is someone who came forward, didn't want to have her information disclosed, got outed and, you know, has now been thrust into the limelight. It's not something she sought, and I think you have to be -- you have to recognize that there's truth behind that. And so that's one thing.

Number two is that, there's very well something could have happened to her. And probably did happen to her. But, as we know, some people don't remember things correctly. I think there was a -- you know, there was a study done of 300 prisoners who were released after DNA showed that they were innocent, and three-quarters of them were because the accuser misremembered. They were -- just got it wrong. Something happened to them, but misidentified the person. So there very well could have had something happen to her and she's innocent in the sense that she brought it forward and tried to be helpful, and now she's just sort of thrust out here in the middle.

So I think I would deal with that witness. And, Dana, I -- I heard you saying something about, Newt Gingrich said it's time to get tough. I don't think it's time to get tough on this one because I think she is very different than maybe some of the other accusers who have come forward. So --

TOOBIN: But you still think she's lying that it was Brett Kavanaugh?

SANTORUM: I think there's a very good chance -- she's not lying. I think she believes -- I think she does believe that it was him. But sometimes, as we all know, our memories are wrong. I mean we -- we misremember things. We --

TOOBIN: I've never been sexually assaulted, but I bet I'd remember who did that. I'd love to (INAUDIBLE).

SANTORUM: I -- but -- but -- I just said that there were 300 people in jail, some for as long as 30 years, and the DNA evidence showed that the person miss -- got it wrong. They believed that it was true, but it was wrong.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: But those -- but those aren't people who were raped. Those are just people who have been wrongly prosecuted. I mean that's completely different.

SANTORUM: No, no, no, these were folks who were --

POWERS: I don't --

SANTORUM: Who were released because of DNA evidence because of rape and other types of things. So the -- so they could have been -- it could have been a variety of different crimes.

POWERS: Usually people who are released on DNA are because of bad prosecution. And so I don't think it's necessarily because somebody got mixed up.

But I think Jeffrey's right. I mean the idea that a woman wouldn't remember who raped her is fairly farfetched. And it's like -- it --

SANTORUM: Well, we have a report in the "USA Today" saying two men have come forward and said that they were the ones who did it, not -- not --

BORGER: They've been (INAUDIBLE). Not really.

TAPPER: Well, Ford's attorneys say that wasn't -- that wasn't credible (ph).

POWERS: Yes. TAPPER: We should -- that has been discredited or not found credible.

We should point out, Kirsten, that Kavanaugh has not been accused of rape by Professor Ford.

POWERS: Right, or accused rape.

TAPPER: Yes.

POWERS: Yes. I mean attempted rape is how show sees it.

[09:50:02] So, look, I think the thing to remember about what we're about to watch is that it's not a real investigation. It's a show hearing. It's basically two people coming in, giving their stories. There are a lot of other people who could come in, who could be corroborating witnesses who may actually back up what Judge Kavanaugh has to say. Mark Judge, we don't know what he would say, but the point is, he is not going to be there. When you have somebody who is allegedly a witness under normal circumstances when you're trying to find the truth, you would have that person there.

Debbie Ramirez, who's another person who has made an accusation, who is willing to testify, will not be there. And, in fact, according to her lawyers, the Judiciary Committee won't even return the phone calls.

So this isn't a real attempt at getting at the truth. It's an attempt to sort of put these up -- people up next to each other, let people draw their conclusions and have a vote.

BLITZER: Debbie Ramirez, the classmate of Judge Kavanaugh at Yale University, when they were both freshman.

You know, Dana, you're getting some new reporting on the Democrats, what their strategy might be?

BASH: Well, I was told by one Democratic source on the committee, there was some discussion ahead of time about whether, because there are ten of them and because five minutes is what they're allotted isn't that much time if you want to continue a train of questioning, and a line of questioning, whether they would consolidate and some people would sit back. I was told by one member of the committee that that is not the plan. They are all going to take their time. But they are coordinating. So not consolidating, but are coordinating, which is something that you would expect with a whole litany of issues and dynamics that go into this.

TOOBIN: I don't expect much to be funny today, but one funny thing is to think of United States senators doing anything in just five minutes. Now, Rick and I don't agree on very much, but I bet we agree on that, that the idea that these senators are going to ask questions and get answers in five minutes when they can't even say hello in less than five minutes.

BASH: Exactly.

BORGER: But it does make sense that they're coordinating.

SANTORUM: And it will be interesting, what -- how much -- what senator spends less than half the time talking?

BORGER: None.

TOOBIN: Half (ph). None.

SANTORUM: Because I guarantee most of them will spend at least half their five minutes of them talking, not hearing from the witness.

TOOBIN: Exactly.

BORGER: No, but it does make sense that they're coordinating because they're going to take different parts of this and try and deconstruct. And I think that --

SANTORUM: But they're going to do the deconstructing, not ask her to --

BORGER: Well, we'll see.

TAPPER: John -- let me ask you a question, John King. If you were Chuck Schumer, if you were trying to come up with the best way for Democrats to do this, I can imagine somebody saying, why not just have the four Democratic women on the Judiciary Committee ask the questions and all the other men just back off and be quiet?

BASH: Or the (INAUDIBLE).

BLITZER: By the way --

HENDERSON: There's Rachel Mitchell.

BLITZER: That's Rachel Mitchell, the woman who is sitting down. She will be asking the questions. The Republicans asked her, as an outside counsel from Arizona, to come (ph) with a lot of experience in sexual harassment crimes, to do the questioning.

KING: To your point, it's a great point, and it's a valid point, why don't the men get out of the way here? However, Richard Blumenthal is a former state attorney general. He thinks he -- he thinks he's perfectly qualified and has reasons to ask questions. Cory Booker's a potential presidential candidate, certainly a rising star in the Democratic Party. He very much wants to use this platform. I don't want to make it all politics like that.

I do think that we should just -- everybody goes into that room in -- or they're in the room now. That hearing starts in seven minutes. Everybody has a position and everybody has a plan. But the giant unpredictability is, this woman we've never heard.

HENDERSON: Right.

KING: And we've never seen. We don't know really what she looks like. We don't know what she sounds like. She goes first. If she is credible, if she is compelling, then, when there's a pause, the Republicans have their strategy for Brett Kavanaugh, the Democrats have their strategy for Brett Kavanaugh, all of that could go out the window depending on what happens with the first witness and what happens with the questions from this woman that Republicans have smartly brought in because they do have 11 white men, most of them in their 70s and 80s, and they remember the Anita Hill debacle and they don't want to go through that again.

But -- so everyone has a plan. Most people have already decided how they're going to vote, at least as they walk into the hearing, but I think we all need to open our mind to the possibility that, yes, most cakes are baked in this town well before. Everybody knows their position because of partisanship and polarization. If Trump's for it and you're a Democrat, that means you're against it.

This is going to be a groundbreaking, compelling, historic day, and she -- Christine Blasey Ford has the potential to change everything.

HENDERSON: Yes, and President Trump even talked about the possibility. He's going to be watching at some point. He talked about the possibility that if she's really credible, he might be open to changing his mind. I'm sure that's wasn't something that if you're Judge Kavanaugh you actually wanted to hear.

TAPPER: I think he means changing his minds in terms of how much he'll support Kavanaugh, not whether or not he'll believe Ford.

HENDERSON: Well, yes. I mean, and if you're Kavanaugh, I mean that's important, right?

TAPPER: Sure.

HENDERSON: I mean if you're pulling support from your pick, I mean, that's pretty significant.

It's really going to be fascinating to see whether or not the pick of Rachel Mitchell is actually more advantageous to the Republicans because she's going to have that 50 minutes to build a case. And on the other side, if you're the Democrats, you're going to have all of these people, ten senators, in coordination, but, I mean, all sort of different personalities trying to build a case. She might actually be much more effective.

[09:55:01] KING: And we know Senator Susan Collins of Maine wants to slow this down. That could all change too based on the hearing today. But if Professor Ford is credible, can Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley keep the genie in the bottle for Republicans who say, wait a minute, we need to have a more thorough process. Wait a minute, why are we in session on a Saturday. Why don't we have 24, 48, 72 hours to think about this, to look at the transcripts, to ask questions, to have follow-up conversations. That all comes down to the next eight or ten hours, and that begins with what we're going to get in about five minutes.

BORGER: Well, and I think the president, listening to him yesterday, it's not -- he didn't exactly throw Kavanaugh under the bus, but he kind of parked him in the middle of the street, I think --

HENDERSON: Yes.

BORGER: Because with him saying, as Nia points out, oh, you know, maybe I could change my mind. I want to -- I want to listen to her. Well, I'm sure the Kavanaugh people, I'm sure George Mitchell -- McConnell wasn't thrilled with that. And, you know, maybe the president, who thinks he can gather his base on this, wouldn't mind a slowdown because he said yesterday, women are angry. Remember that? And his base is with him on this. So maybe a slowdown in fact would help him.

KING: But McConnell -- Mitch McConnell thinks they will keep the Senate in 40 days, but he's not certain. He's not certain.

BORGER: Right.

KING: So he knows if he is going to get a judge confirmed, for -- we keep forgetting the consequence of this seat, for Anthony Kennedy's seat, a more conservative to be put in the seat of who was the swing justice, that Brett Kavanaugh is his only guarantee because there's no guarantee, if Kavanaugh goes away, that you can get another -- can you get a nominee through in the lame duck? I don't know and Mitch McConnell's not sure. He might think so, but it's -- he's not a man who likes to think, he likes to know. He knows if can get -- if he can pull this off in the next 72 hours, he can get Brett Kavanaugh on the court and reshape the court for 40 years. Anything other than that becomes unpredictable and Mitch McConnell, like financial markets, does not like unpredictability.

POWERS: Can I be a little cynical here?

TOOBIN: No. No.

POWERS: I think -- I think Donald Trump saying that he's keeping an open mind is not actually true. I think this is just a messaging thing that Republicans are doing, because the Republicans have really signaled that they're not really being open minded. That they've already pretty much made up their mind.

TAPPER: Every Republican? You don't think Susan Collins?

POWERS: No every Republican -- but that -- no, no, no, but -- right, we have two senators who basically are keeping open minds. But the rest of them have spoken very much like this is going to happen. There's going to be a vote. You know, he's probably going to make it. And so I think they're trying to shift on the messaging to say, like, oh, we're having this hearing and we're really open minded and we're -- but I don't really believe that Donald Trump is going to change his mind based on anything that Dr. Ford says.

BLITZER: The senators, as you can see, they are arriving right now.

We're also just getting in a tweet from the attorney representing Debbie Ramirez, another woman making these serious allegations against Judge Kavanaugh, Debbie Ramirez from -- who knew him at Yale University. John Clune, the lawyer for Debbie Ramirez, tweeting this from Debbie Ramirez, quote, thinking of you today, Christine. They want us to feel alone and isolated, but I'm there, wrapping my arms around you, and I hope you feel the people of this nation wrapping their arms around all of us. Holding you up in spirit. That from Debbie Ramirez.

TAPPER: And, once again, the more that this hearing becomes about that, about the movement of women who are sick and tired of men abusing, harassing, degrading them, the more beneficial this is to the Democrats, to Professor Ford, to the Debbie Ramirez's of the world, and the more that it is specifically about Brett Kavanaugh and specifically about the allegations against him, the more that it's beneficial to Kavanaugh. And when President Trump comes out and makes it about the movement, he hurts himself and he hurts Brett Kavanaugh.

BLITZER: Yes. And I know you want to weigh in, senator, but the mood today with the Me Too movement is a lot different than it was in the early '90s.

SANTORUM: No, I get that. And I think what Republicans believe is that Democrats, for partisan and for political purposes, have weaponized the Me Too movement to attack Brett Kavanaugh in order to stop a fifth judge to be on the court. This is -- when I said that Christine Blasey Ford is a pawn in the large -- there's a war going on here. And she is an unwilling participant in that war because she didn't want to be (INAUDIBLE).

TAPPER: The war to stop Kavanaugh.

SANTORUM: The war to stop Kavanaugh. But it's a bigger war. I mean it's -- this is the big schism that we see in this country between, you know, the left and the right and the progressives and the conservatives and the central role that the court has played in moving this country to the left. And now we see it. Their -- the principle -- the principle vehicle for the transformational change that we've seen in a lot of the progressive ideology is now being threatened. That vehicle to be turned on them. And they are going to use -- and what Republicans feel is, they are using every last (INAUDIBLE), uncorroborated accusations at the last minute, obvious political players like Michael whatever his last name is.

TOOBIN: Avenatti.

[10:00:02] SANTORUM: Avenatti and Debra Katz and all these -- these are -- Dianne Feinstein, who wants an FBI investigation, held this thing for five or six weeks, when she could have had an FBI investigation.

BORGER: Well, she was asked to keep it quiet.

SANTORUM: But she was asked to keep it quiet but she didn't.

TAPPER: I want to bring in Kirsten