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Congress Grills Ex-Diplomat Kurt Volker as the First Witness in Ukraine Probe; Impeachment Concerns Grow Among Republicans About Impeachment Strategy; Stocks Look to Rebound After Rough Wednesday; Former U.S. Special Envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker to Appear as First Witness in Ukraine Probe; White House Claims Kurt Volker a Never Trumper. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 03, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:01]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Poppy Harlow.

In minutes, a key witness will be on Capitol Hill delivering testimony. It is something that his boss, the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, tried to prevent. Kurt Volker, longtime foreign policy expert, formerly the U.S. special envoy to Ukraine, formerly NATO ambassador, he will testify behind closed doors. We're learning dozens of pages were already delivered ahead of his deposition today.

SCIUTTO: A source says that Volker was, quote, "never fully on the Trump train." That's a line the administration may be rolling out ahead of what could be damaging testimony in the impeachment inquiry all stemming from President Trump's pressure on the president of Ukraine to dig up dirt on potential rival in 2020 Joe Biden.

Democrats say that more subpoenas could be coming if the White House refuses to release more documents related to that effort, and yet another person on that Ukraine call, the "Washington Post" is now reporting a top aide for Vice President Mike Pence was also listening in.

HARLOW: Meanwhile, the president is set to leave next hour for Florida where he will follow up on his bruising back-and-forth with reporters yesterday, most likely, but he might not take questions. We'll see.

Our team is covering all of this from all the angles. Let's start with our congressional reporter Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill.

What are we expecting from this testimony, Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in just a short time, Volker will be up here on Capitol Hill. And you can expect that lawmakers are going to have a lot of questions for him, specifically about what his role and connection was with Rudy Giuliani and whether or not he accommodated any of these meetings between Ukrainian officials and Giuliani, as Giuliani was trying to get more information about what was going on with the Bidens in Ukraine.

And I will tell you that those text messages that Giuliani released last week that caused then the former special envoy to Ukraine to resign on Friday. All of that is going to be of interest to committee aides and to members who will want to ask about that. So that's coming up in just a short bit -- Poppy.

HARLOW: So the intelligence community inspector general will be on the Hill tomorrow. And there is a lot that he is going to be asked. What is the most pressing thing that you're hearing from lawmakers about what they want to know, in addition to all of the documents they've already seen in the transcripts?

FOX: Well, you know, one of the biggest issues that they want to talk about is the transcript and then that formal complaint. They want to hear precisely more about some of the claims that are in that complaint that came out last week. This is going to be an opportunity for aides to push on exactly what was in the complaint.

You can also expect that Republicans are going to want to keep asking questions about, you know, whether this was the whistleblower's firsthand knowledge or not. That is something that they have continued to push, that this was not something that the whistleblower had firsthand knowledge of.

Of course, the ICIG has pushed back on that, Poppy. So all of that is going to be part of the conversation tomorrow.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And Republican Senator Chuck Grassley made the point that legally --

HARLOW: Doesn't matter, right?

SCIUTTO: It doesn't matter.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you about this because there's a lot of anticipation leading up to this document dump, as it were, by the State Department on the Hill yesterday. A lot of speculation as to what that was in the end. Can you explain to us what it was and how significant?

FOX: Well, I will tell you that aides coming out of that briefing yesterday were very puzzled as to why this was such an urgent matter. One, I had an opportunity to take a look at some of those documents and they included many unfounded claims about the Bidens. Rudy Giuliani had put together some information related to these unverified claims. That was part of this document.

It also included State Department e-mails, where a State Department official seemed to be talking about articles that were in the Hill, pushing a narrative about the former ambassador to Ukraine and basically those State Department officials remarking that those were an unverified narrative, a fake narrative, is the term that they used. So, all of that was in that document dump. But I will tell you that aides coming out of that briefing were very puzzled as to why this was so urgent, as to why this had to happen yesterday.

Of course, there was a lot of buildup as we were trying to figure out exactly what that briefing was going to be about -- Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, thanks very much.

CNN's Joe Johns is at the White House where President Trump will leave for Florida within the next hour.

And, you know, Joe, there's been a lot of questioning about what is going to be the administration's response to the impeachment inquiry, will there be a war room, et cetera. But it strikes me we already can see the strategy playing out before our eyes, right? I mean, and it's a consistent one as with the Mueller probe. Attack, attack, attack, go after the credibility of witnesses, create alternative narratives. Is that the strategy we're going to see going forward?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's the big question here at the White House because we do know that the president has very much been on the attack both in person in front of the camera as well as on Twitter. He has really gone after all of this and sometimes not necessarily to his benefit simply because of the way it comes off.

[09:05:05]

I think we saw that yesterday in that news conference with the president of Finland. Now, he's also been seeking very much to discredit the Russia investigation, which he sees as a black mark on his administration. To that end CNN has reporting that the president has enlisted both a new prime minister of U.K. as well as of Australia, that's Boris Johnson and Scott Morrison, in an attempt to try to discredit the Russia investigation.

We know Australia is important because they're one of the countries mentioned as raising the red flag on the Russian investigation in the Mueller report. And the president very much has wanted to try to change the narrative even so much so as sending his attorney general into looking into the origins of the Russia investigation. So, this has been a multi-prong attack and it's expected to continue. Back to you.

HARLOW: Joe, what are we hearing about the vice president, his involvement, with Ukraine, with any pressure on Zelensky, and also in terms of knowledge or lack thereof of that phone call?

JOHNS: Well, lack thereof is what we're getting out of the office of the vice president, at least so far. We know his name has come up multiple times, for one thing, it's on the record that he actually had to cancel a trip to the inauguration of the president of Ukraine, of Volodymyr Zelensky, and he had to not go because the president of the United States told him not to go. That of course sent a message to the government of Ukraine.

And later, in a meeting with Volodymyr Zelensky he essentially said that aid was being held up to that country, aid which that country needs very badly to protect itself, essentially in order to get that country straight on the issue of corruption, which the president said is his issue and many on Capitol Hill suspect was pretext for trying to get dirt on the Bidens. Back to you.

HARLOW: Joe Johns at the White House, thank you on both of those fronts.

Let's talk about with Susan Glasser, staff writer for the "New Yorker" and former federal prosecutor Laura Coates.

Susan, let me begin with you. If we were in the room today as Volker is answering these questions, this is the first actual witness in this official impeachment inquiry. What is the most important question to get a straightforward answer to?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, you know, the old Watergate question is going to apply to all these witnesses which is what did you know and when did you know it? And the timeline is very significant here, both the timeline of Kurt Volker's interactions with Rudy Giuliani, which can establish what exactly was the nature of the -- what appears to be rogue foreign policy, that Giuliani and Trump were wanting. And what were his instructions or communications with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other Trump administration officials?

This is very important because it establishes -- we've seen the White House's transcript of the phone call. What we need and I think will be trying to establish in this investigation is what is the evidence surrounding that phone call? For example, it's my understanding that Kurt Volker was a participant in some of the meetings at which the president's personal instruction to freeze the military aid to Ukraine was discussed. What was said in that meeting? What did he learn about it?

You know, the president's instructions were conveyed, but was any rational conveyed for it? Is it the same as the public rational the president is now after the fact offering? So I think that Kurt Volker really is a crucial witness here, and you know, I believe he will tell the truth. You know, I think we all expect that.

SCIUTTO: Laura, I want to ask you a legal question here because one thing is clear now is that this effort by this administration internationally was not just Ukraine and seeking dirt on the Bidens. Because now you have Bill Barr traveling around the world, the president looking for help from the Brits, the Australian, the Italians.

HARLOW: Italians.

SCIUTTO: On a DOJ inquiry into the origins of the 2016 Russia investigation. Legally, is that a different and arguably more acceptable, whether you think there's anything there there, but acceptable line of inquiry for this administration, to look at those questions as opposed to ones that are specifically targeting his potential opponent in 2020? LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think if you're looking at it in

the context of which is more palatable to people to understand and which is more appropriate, certainly one that involves an abuse of power and trying to use the leverage of congressionally appropriated funds for the national security of an ally is going -- for your own political gain is going to be far more problematic than say asking for cooperation in an international effort to figure out if there is something about the intelligence community or information you received that would compromise the process that you had in your underlying agencies.

[09:10:05]

But thematically they're really the same here because what it's talking about is necessarily the use of official diplomatic and political channels not for the security of the nation, not in the interest of United States of America per se, but either bury an ax, to grind an ax or even have some sort of political leverage over a perceived Democratic frontrunner. And so I think thematically it's the same thing but you're absolutely right, Jim, in your question if you're a member of Congress in your impeachment proceedings, what are you going to prioritize knowing that you have the ambassador -- former ambassador of Ukraine coming in, you got Kurt Volker, what's your priority? Your priority is the president of the United States.

HARLOW: Laura, just one more legal question for you on something slightly different. The "Washington Post" reporting that I know you've seen on Rudy Giuliani consulting with now imprisoned former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort.

SCIUTTO: Remarkable.

HARLOW: On something around Ukraine. All kosher? Something smell there?

COATES: Of course it smells. It smells toxic and it's offensive. And the reason why you're looking at this and the reason why, of course, the idea of Ukraine is extraordinarily problematic for the president of the United States is because he doesn't seem to have learned his lesson about the orbits in which he's operating. Remember, Paul Manafort, when he was originally charged and they had the investigation into him. People were condemning the Mueller probe, saying this is so farfetched. Why on earth is this at all relevant to the Trump campaign?

This is his own private and personal and business dealings outside of the campaign. Now you're finding out that somehow that was tapped into for the benefit of a current administration and a perspective capacity. That's far more interesting if you're talking about an impeachment probe.

SCIUTTO: Right.

COATES: Criminally speaking, I don't know that you have anything there.

SCIUTTO: Laura, just as you've been speaking, we see Kurt Volker.

HARLOW: There he is.

SCIUTTO: The former special envoy for Ukraine, now arriving on the Hill for his closed-door testimony. Of course we're going to follow that as we learn more.

Just very quickly before we go, Susan, you heard CNN's reporting before we came to you that now folks are saying about Volker that he was, quote, "not on the Trump train," which is a frequent tactic we've seen with critics of this president even ones he appointed and served in the administration, if they go off the party line, then they were either disloyal or always a never Trumper or something.

Is that what we should expect if he gives potentially damaging testimony here?

GLASSER: No. I think that's a real inaccuracy truthfully. I know Kurt Volker from following Russia for all these years. And I've spoken with him throughout the Trump administration. And he made a conscious choice to serve the administration. He was asked to do this job by Rex Tillerson. Many of his colleagues, he's the executive director of the McCain Institute, signed the never Trump letter. He did not do so. Not because I think he was pro-Trump but because he thought that it was important that there still be people who would serve their country.

And throughout the administration when I spoke with him, this was always very consistent. He did not see himself as a partisan. He saw himself as representing an important American interest and seeing whether there was any progress that was possible to end this military conflict that has been going on in Ukraine for years.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: Which is what you want him to do but it certainly won't stop partisan on the president's team from painting him, you know, in that light as they have often done.

HARLOW: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Susan Glasser, Laura Coates, great to have you. You know, we're going to continue these conversations.

Still to come this hour, former U.S. special envoy as we said Kurt Volker is on the Hill. He arrived just moments ago. That's him. He's going to be before the Foreign Affairs Committee. A member of that committee is going to join us next.

HARLOW: And former vice president Joe Biden launching his strongest response yet to the president's attacks. You'll hear what he said.

And a powerful moment inside of a Dallas courtroom as a man offers forgiveness and hugs the ex-police officer convicted of murdering his brother.

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[09:15:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Right now, former U.S. special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker is on Capitol Hill. He is testifying privately to three separate house committees about President Trump's efforts to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens. He is the first witness in the house's impeachment inquiry and CNN has learned dozens of pages of documents have already been turned over ahead of his testimony today.

With me now is Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks of New York, of course, he is the senior member on the Foreign Affairs Committee. Thank you very much, appreciate you being here --

REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Good to be with you, Poppy --

HARLOW: Look, I know you're in Chicago and you're headed to London for an important NATO meeting. You're not there, aides for you and others on the House Foreign Affairs Committee are questioning Volker today. My question to you is, what is the most important question that they get a straight answer to, or if you were there, what would you ask him?

MEEKS: Well, you know, I want to know what was the dialogue and conversation between Volker and president's personal attorney, Giuliani. Giuliani has put out there on a continuous basis that he was acting on behalf of the State Department. I think Mr. Volker would be able to answer that question so that we can see whether or not there was pressure put on Mr. Volker to arrange either contacts with the president of Ukraine and what that was all about.

So, that dialogue and conversation and the connection between Mr. Giuliani and others within the administration and what they were trying to find out with regards to the Ukrainian president, and what that subject matter would be very important to know.

[09:20:00]

HARLOW: So, what if Volker testifies that the request to him, you know, to meet with Giuliani came from the Ukrainian side, that the effort was really on that side? Because if you look at page 3 of the transcript, President Zelensky says quote, "I will personally tell you one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani recently. We're hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet with him once he comes to Ukraine."

MEEKS: Well, I think that this is why this inquiry is must -- is very important, must happen, so we can find out what those facts are. To not know what the facts are, and that's why we're doing an impeachment inquiry so that we can gather all the facts and know what the truth is.

And I think that Mr. Volker, who, you know, for whatever his reasons were, decided to step down as ambassador and testify today and the documents that he presents, soon we will know what they were and what happened. That's what this is, it's a quest for the truth, so the American people deserve to know what the truth is.

HARLOW: One of the difficulties that you and your fellow members of Congress have faced in getting to the truth is stonewalling from the administration, a lack of testimony, people not showing up for testimony, empty chairs, documents not turned over.

But a tool that you guys have not yet used is holding those people in contempt or the inherent contempt tool. That hasn't been used in, as you know, you know, over a century. And I wonder if you think it is time for Congress to use that authority?

MEEKS: Well, I think that you will see us using it. I think that when you have the question of whether or not a president has abused his power, betrayed the constitution, and put our national defense at risk by withholding money that was appropriated for Ukraine, knowing that Russia is on its solvent property, there is a, you know, a responsibility.

In fact, I know Secretary Pompeo has said before it would be malpractice for us not to -- at that time to investigate Secretary Clinton -- well, it would be malpractice for us not to utilize every tool to make sure that we get a quest and answers so we know the truth of what took place.

HARLOW: OK, let me ask you about something that was tweeted this week by your fellow Democrat in Congress, Congresswoman Maxine Waters wrote, quote, "impeachment is not good enough for Trump. He needs to be imprisoned and placed in solitary confinement." Now, you didn't jump to impeachment. You just got there, you know, I think it was September 24th.

Do statements like that from her make this case harder for Democrats because it looks extreme, some would say, and it looks purely partisan?

MEEKS: Look, I will only tell you the words of the Speaker Nancy Pelosi, this is a very serious time --

HARLOW: But I really want your take on this because it matters, the rhetoric coming out of those in your party at this point. And do you believe that language like that from Congresswoman Maxine Waters saying impeachment isn't good enough for the president, needs to be imprisoned and placed in solitary confinement. Does that do damage to the overall effort here?

MEEKS: No, what I know is, we are doing a very thorough investigation as to what has taken place. This is a very serious matter. And for me personally, it is very serious. It is why I did not go on the impeachment bandwagon. I wanted to --

HARLOW: Right --

MEEKS: Make sure that we had the facts and that we move forward. You know, we don't want impeachment to be something that's just a political game. This is a very -- when you talk about betraying your trust to the American people -- HARLOW: Yes --

MEEKS: When you talk about the abuse of power, it is something that I don't take lightly. I took an oath of office --

HARLOW: So, right --

MEEKS: To protect the constitution --

HARLOW: And so that's why I'm asking you if you think language like for a sitting Congresswoman to say that the president should be put in solitary confinement, sounds to the American people. Does it -- like a political game rather than --

MEEKS: No --

HARLOW: A very solemn choice, one you just made?

MEEKS: I think that if you listen to the chairmen of the committee of -- that has jurisdiction, the three chairmen put out a statement. I think if you listen to the speaker and the overwhelming number of members of the United States Congress, that you will find -- and even Congresswoman Waters, that she is doing a meticulous and very refined investigation and trying to get the documents that are important here.

You've got a president who has been obstructing Congress from doing its job. And obstruction should not take place here. The president has not been --

HARLOW: And --

MEEKS: Forthcoming.

HARLOW: Yes, and I'm not questioning her work, obviously she's got a key role on the Financial Services Committee, et cetera. I am questioning the rhetoric and your thoughts on that. I appreciate your time, Congressman Meeks, thank you very much and have a good, informative trip. Let us know how it goes when you get back.

MEEKS: Thank you, good being with you, Poppy.

JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Important questions there, no question. Sources say that the GOP is getting more and more concerned with the White House impeachment strategy, and they may have a good reason for that fear. We're going to air their concerns next.

[09:25:00]

And we're just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks actually looking to rebound today a little bit after a tough day on Wednesday and the day before. The selloffs over the past two days have wiped out all of the gains made over the last three months. Investors will watch as the U.S. starts a new trade battle, this time with the European Union. The World Trade Organization just sided with the U.S. in a long-running dispute over government subsidies given to the European aircraft maker Airbus. New tariffs on $7.5 billion worth of EU goods go into effect later

this month. They're going to be on aircraft, Whiskey, wine and cheese.

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