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Trump Tries Distancing Himself From Damning Diplomat Texts; Damning Text Messages Detail Trump Administration Pressure On Ukraine. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 04, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:34]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. It is Friday afternoon. Let's get you caught up to speed here on the fast-moving developments in the impeachment investigation of President Trump. And we begin with the batch of text messages released by three House committees.

So these messages between top diplomats suggest what the President denied regarding his call with the Ukrainian President, a quid pro quo. In fact, the pressure for Ukraine to launch an investigation into Trump's political rival was so explicit that these text messages show one diplomat is actually forced to deny it. But the President saw that text in a whole different light, and here he was just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The text message that I saw from Ambassador Sondland, who is highly respected, was there's no quid pro quo. He said that. He said, by the way, it's almost sounded like in general. He said, by the way, there's no quid pro quo and there isn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We will get all into these text messages. But first to the other major developments today. You have the Intelligence Community's Inspector General is now speaking to House committees in a closed session. You have the former diplomat caught in the middle of Trump pressuring Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden testify that he found the allegations against the Vice President had quote-unquote, "no credibility," and that he found Joe Biden to be a man of integrity.

We are also learning today that President Trump raised this issue of investigating not only just Joe Biden, but also Elizabeth Warren with the Chinese President back in June, and that he reportedly booted the American Ambassador to Ukraine because she blocked efforts on Ukraine doing a Biden probe.

Also, Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner is one of the officials focused on the Presidents impeachment strategy from the White House. And finally this, the President is daring the Democrats and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on an impeachment vote. White House lawyers are drafting a letter saying that they will not

produce the documents until the full House votes on an open Impeachment Inquiry. And here is more now from President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The way they're doing it, they've taken away our rights. So if they proceed, and you know, they'll just get their people, they're all in line. Because even though many of them don't want to vote, they have no choice. They have to follow their leadership.

And then we'll get into the Senate, and we're going to win. The Republicans have been very unified. This is the greatest witch hunt in the history of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And just moments ago, CNN obtained the full opening statement of Kurt Volker, the former diplomat to Ukraine who not only backed Joe Biden, but also gave a warning to the President's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. So for much more on that, we go to Sunlen Serfaty up on Capitol Hill, and so what exactly did Ambassador Volker say to this committee yesterday?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke, this is just part of Kurt Volker's nine hours of testimony in front of lawmakers yesterday, but significant statements in his opening statement, which was obtained by CNN.

In that statement, he says he was not aware of any effort to urge the Ukrainians to specifically investigate Vice President Joe Biden. But he does make the point to distinguish the investigations into Biden with investigation into Burisma, which of course, is that energy company where Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden served on the Board.

In this opening statement, Volker says of Joe Biden, quote, "I have known former Vice President Biden for 24 years and the suggestion that he would be influenced in his duties as Vice President, by money for his son simply has no credibility to me." I know him as a man of integrity and dedication to our country."

And the opening statement really does also show Kurt Volker here trying to defend himself, portraying himself as someone who is trying to essentially tamp down the influence of President Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani over the President.

In another section, he says, of a conversation with President Trump quote, "In the course of that conversation, he referenced conversations with Mayor Giuliani. It was clear to me that despite the positive news and recommendations being conveyed by this official delegation about the new President, President Trump had a deeply rooted negative view of Ukraine rooted in the past. He was clearly receiving other information from other sources, including Mayor Giuliani that was more negative, causing him to retain this negative view."

[14:05:07]

SERFATY: And that certainly, Brooke really keeps it in line with what we saw from those text messages last night, clearly -- that were released the committee -- clearly, some concern on the part of Kurt Volker here about the influence of Rudy Giuliani and the fact that he had President Trump's ear in all of this.

BALDWIN: Getting to the text messages next. Sunlen, thank you very much from the Hill. More on those damning text messages, and also just the people involved here.

So former U.S. Special Envoy to the Ukraine, right, who we keep talking about, Kurt Volker handed them over to Congress. And so Volker resigned from his post one day after the release of that whistleblower complaint.

Gordon Sondland. He is U.S. Ambassador to the European Union. But before that, he had donated $1 million to President Trump's Inaugural Committee.

The third name in all of these texts is a man by the name of Bill Taylor. He is effectively running the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine since there is no permanent Ambassador at the moment. But he has served in that role before. Just so you know, the players and now we talk texts. So CNN Justice Correspondent, Jessica Schneider is here on all things text messages. Tell us what you found.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, pages and pages of text turned over to House Democrats that really show how the administration was determined to push Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son and also to push Ukraine to investigate with the President and Rudy Giuliani have wrongly said, was Ukraine's influence on the 2016 election.

So one of the first texts, July 25th. Of course, we know that's the same day of that now consequential phone call between the President and Ukraine's new President Zelensky.

On this day, U.S. Special Envoy Kurt Volker, who abruptly resigned last week, he texted Presidents Zelensky's aide, saying this, "Heard from the White House, assuming President Z convinces Trump he will investigate, get to the bottom of what happened in 2016. We will nail down date for visit to Washington." Seeming there to make a White House visit contingent on Ukraine's assistance.

So let's go to the next text. It shows just how involved officials were in crafting a statement that was supposed to be issued by Ukraine but never was.

So Volker writing to Rudy Giuliani, "Hi, Mr. Mayor. Had a good chat with Yermak ..." that's Zelensky's aide, " ... last night. He was pleased with your phone call. Mentioned Z making a statement. Can we all get on the phone to make sure I advise Z correctly as to what he should be saying?"

Days later, August 30th, the top American diplomat in Ukraine, William Taylor, he tells Volker that the President has canceled his trip to Ukraine. The very next day, Taylor then texts a man, Gordon Sondland, that's the U.S. Ambassador to the E.U., and a very prominent Republican donor and he is sounding an alarm here.

Taylor says, "Are we now saying that security assistance and White House meeting are conditioned on investigations?" Sondland replies, "Call me." It's being like, let's take this off text.

Well, that's security assistance, referring, of course to the nearly $400 million in aid that was initially withheld from Ukraine by the White House and finally released on September 11th. Two days before September 11th, September 9th. Taylor again brings up the point, he says, "As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign."

Sondland texts back hours later defending the President saying, "I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear, no quid pro quo's of any kind." Sondland against suggest they stopped texting. And they do.

So while this notion of quid pro quo seems to be called into question here, Brooke. This series of texts really shows just how involved these top officials were in pushing the President's agenda. And it's all right there in black and white -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you for we're going through each and every one of those, Jessica. Let's get some analysis. James Clapper once served as the Director of National Intelligence and is now a CNN National Security Analyst. So Director Clapper, a pleasure as always, sir. You know, we just ran through some of those texts. Did you see a quid pro quo here?

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I certainly do. And the reason, Brooke, is the context of the discussions that were going on, the three corner discussions here indicate clearly there was a quid pro quo, a lot of discussion back and forth about -- do the Ukrainians make a statement first, or do we set a date for a visit first? And there's a lot of back and forth over that.

And I thought the Ambassador to the E.U.'s statement was so out of context. It's almost like he realized that these texts are on the record, and he needs to say something and this is after the apparent phone call he had, he needs to say something about no quid pro quo.

But that struck me as very out of context with the rest of the dialogue.

[14:10:02]

BALDWIN: To that point, again, just reiterating perhaps the most damning of it all, when you have the acting Ambassador saying quote, "I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign." This is in the middle of a lengthy back and forth around midnight dealing with of course international time zones, and then it takes Sondland, sir, five hours to respond with his no quid pro quo line. And then he asked to take the texts offline. Director Clapper how significant is that?

CLAPPER: Well, as I said, it's quite significant to me, at least what I was reading into that and I was struck by the fact as well that Taylor is a professional career Foreign Service officer, and the E.U. representative Sondland is a political appointee, so -- and a donor to --

BALDWIN: Trump's Inaugural Committee.

CLAPPER: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Yes. Why take it offline? Why would one do that?

CLAPPER: Well, that's a great question. You can infer course that since there is no record of the substance of the telephone conversation, you could infer what perhaps went on during that call.

And that's why -- and that there was obviously some sensitivity or recognition about what was really afoot here, and best to discuss that offline.

BALDWIN: How about -- now just going to President Trump and how he you know, day after day on TV, you know -- and also, of course, on Twitter defending his behavior as quote, "perfect," that he has done nothing wrong. He says he has a right to investigate corruption in any country if it affects the United States, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Have you asked foreign leaders for any corruption investigations that don't involve your political opponents? Are there other cases where --

TRUMP: You know, we would have to look --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, Director Clapper it, is it just a coincidence that the only investigation President Trump knows about involves a political rival?

CLAPPER: Now, what a coincidence that is, and of all the concern about corruption in Ukraine, and that is an issue there, no question about that. But he only singles out one or two people, you know, Vice President Biden and his son, who just happens to be leading right now, leading the polls as his primary opponent for 2020. What a coincidence that is. And then, of course, what really struck me was publicly brazenly inviting China to investigate.

You know, a great rule of law proponent, in which is just incredible to me that it is a communist country, and that he apparently ascribe veracity to any investigation that China would run on any American.

BALDWIN: And that we are in the middle of a trade war, right? And that affects each and every one of us back here at home. And who knows how it may all be tied together. Right?

CLAPPER: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Exactly. The President also tried to boost the legitimacy of his interactions with Ukraine this way. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I was investigated. I was investigated, and they think it could have been by U.K., they think it could have been by Australia, they think it could have been by Italy. So when you get down to it, I was investigated by the Obama administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Can you just fact check that for me?

CLAPPER: Well, the investigation he is referring to, I guess, is the counterintelligence investigation, which was launched by the F.B.I. in July of '16. And it through this occasion by, you know, the dozens -- well, we didn't see all these contemporaneous contacts between Russians and the Trump campaign.

And I know many of us, we didn't understand the substance of these discussions, which -- you know, that has since come out. But contemporaneously, we are -- the dashboard light was blinking yellow at the time, why all these contacts with Russia? Particularly against the backdrop of what we were seeing about the magnitude of the effort that the Russian were mining to undermine our system, sow doubt, discord and discontent, help him and hurt Hillary Clinton.

And so I guess, you know, single minded determination here to discredit, I think the original Intelligence Community assessment and the Mueller investigation. And I think -- and the reason of course, is, which we encountered in January 2017, when we briefed him in Trump Tower was, you know, he just can't get his head around the fact that the election, as I assert in my book will have been sworn to him by the Russians.

Then of course that tested out on the legitimacy of the election --

[14:15:08]

BALDWIN: And of course, and it's something he brings up over and over again. And so that was Russia in 2016. Just the last hour before I came out here, we also have now learned that Microsoft, Director Clapper, has just reported that hackers linked to the Iranian government tried to attack a 2020 U.S. presidential campaign, as well as current and former U.S. government officials, you know, openly under attack.

And you know, the man in charge here, not only it seems doesn't care, but is openly soliciting it.

CLAPPER: Well, that's news to me. But it's really not surprising that the other countries having witnessed what the Russians did in 2016, and again, in 2018, other countries for different agendas, different reasons, are going to similarly try to interfere in our election process. And they'll pick and choose candidates that they either like or don't like, or causes they don't like or dislike, and will try to effect or influence voting to include suppressing voting.

And so we have a continuing problem here, which is, as the fundamental underpinning of our system is under attack, not just by Russia, but by others for different reasons.

BALDWIN: Exactly. Director James Clapper. It is a privilege, sir. Thank you very much.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Thank you. We are now seeing what the key witness in this scandal testified to Congress about what Rudy Giuliani and President Trump told him to do.

Plus, new details today about whose running point on the President's impeachment defense and why the Trump team believes they don't need a war room.

And Republicans are responding to President Trump's most recent outbursts with more deafening silence. How will history judge their actions? We will talk to one of the Republican candidates hoping to unseat this President? You're watching CNN. It is Friday afternoon. We'll be right back.

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[14:22:02]

BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN, I'm Brooke Baldwin. President Trump may be openly daring House Democrats to try to impeach him because he has done nothing wrong.

But behind the scenes, a White House official tells CNN that there is a coordinated effort underway to develop an impeachment strategy, and it is being led by the President's son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner and acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney.

Dana Bash is our CNN Chief Political Correspondent. She's with me in Washington for more on what this strategy may look like. And so, you know, until now, the President has been operating sans plan -- is this a sign that they are taking this seriously?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, if this turns out to be a more traditional strategy, the three words I am hearing from Republicans on Capitol Hill who feel very much in the dark is, bring it on. Let's go.

You know, they definitely want this. Now, it's not as though there isn't an open phone line between the President and leadership. I mean, that's always the case with particularly with this President. He is not only his own communications director, he's his own legislative director. He is his own everything, and that he is kind of a one-man show when it comes to these kinds of relationships.

Having said that, it's -- this is what I've been told from Republican sources who have been very frustrated is that the White House from their perspective has not understood that this is different in substance, but much more importantly, in process and in import.

This is impeachment. This is the real deal that they've got to, you know, get their act together. And whether or not the White House sees that now, and how they're going to actually act differently. That is to be determined, but the fact that they're telegraphing that is different.

BALDWIN: Okay, bring it on with the footnote of, but this is different. How about last night at Amherst College, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was asked her opinion on what's happening, you know, politically in the country right now and how it will be seen down the road, historically. And this is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: How do you think people will characterize this period in American history?

RUTH BADER GINSBURG, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES: As an aberration.

There is a great man who once said that the true symbol of the United States is not the bald eagle. It is the pendulum. The pendulum goes too far to the right, it's going to swing back. The same thing too far to the left. So I'm hoping to see a swing back in my lifetime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, when RBG speaks --

BASH: There is so much there.

BALDWIN: Right, when she speaks, we listen, but also you, Dana, I mean, you have been in D.C. forever. And as your experience, too. I mean, the pendulum does seem to be way on one side right now. But will it come back, do you think?

[14:25:11]

BASH: Yes. And I think that the difference is that the pendulum does swing, it goes back and forth. That is the history of this country. It's just that in modern times, it's been swinging much faster.

I mean, think about where we were in 2008, a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress, a veto proof, excuse me -- a filibuster proof majority in the United States Senate. And just two years later, that started to swing back, back, back, back, back, back until a Republican President and now -- and then it started to come back again.

So it didn't used to happen that necessarily that quickly when you talk about maybe in the White House, but overall control of Washington, and it is faster.

The word that she used at the beginning, aberration.

BALDWIN: Aberration.

BASH: Of course. I mean, you know, that's a very diplomatic word, you know, there is probably a word that everybody would use here, and you can go ahead and try to spell that -- everybody here with us, even people who are diehard Trump fans. Like what is happening?

People I talked to today who really liked the President had said, what he did yesterday on the South Lawn of the White House is not okay. Now, they are not saying they are --

BALDWIN: Calling on China.

BASH: Calling on China to investigate, but that is absolutely, Brooke, why you saw the President try to reel it back in his comments today.

BALDWIN: I just -- I have Frank Bruni in my head, "New York Times" opinion columnist and I read a piece of his within the last couple of months and you know, that lead line was basically Trump will be with us forever. But that's a whole other segment. Danna Bash. Good to see you, my friend. Thank you very much.

BASH: You too. Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: As we get rumblings over a second whistleblower involving the President's taxes, we are now getting word, the Treasury watchdog has just launched investigation involving the handling of those taxes.

Plus, one of the President's Republican challengers will join me live to respond to his colleagues staying silent in this scandal.

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