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White House Blocks Ambassador Sondland's Testimony To Congress. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 08, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Top of the hour, good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The breaking news this morning, and it's breaking quickly, the days of playing nice are done, that is the word, according to a source, from the president's impeachment team, as the E.U. ambassador, Gordon Sondland, told last minute not to testify this morning, a letter coming down from the State Department right before his plan, the closed-door deposition, for three House committees today, that testimony, not happening anymore.

HARLOW: So Democrats are now accusing the White House of obstruction for withholding evidence from this impeachment inquiry. They say that includes also unreleased text messages on a personal device of Sondland's that are, quote, deeply relevant, according to Adam Schiff, and also testimony, Sondland was set to answer questions about his role and the president's dealings with Ukraine, including trading White House visit for investigations into the Bidens.

Let's go to Capitol Hill. Our Senior Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju, is there. Manu, what ist he next step for Democrats?

MAUN RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff came out criticizing this move by the administration to block this witness from coming forward. He detailed why he believed Ambassador Sondland could provide key testimony about the president's efforts to urge the Ukrainian government to investigate Joe Biden, the talk about why that military aid was suspended, about the talk, about this meeting that the Ukrainian government wanted to have in Washington.

And he said that, essentially, that any efforts to obstruct their witnesses could be used against them. In other words, perhaps in an article of impeachment which is what Democrats have been warning them. Perhaps they're not going to go down the route of a prolonged litigation, instead to move quicker to the notion of impeaching this president, which is the third time in American history. Now, just moments ago after Ambassador Sondland surprised his committee by that announcement that he would not appear under the State Department's direction, Adam Schiff made clear the Democrats wouldn't stand for it.

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REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): We consider yet additional strong evidence of obstruction of the constitutional functions of Congress, a co-equal branch of government.

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RAJU: Now, Schiff would not take questions afterwards. I tried to ask him what the next step exactly is. Will they go to court? He would not take questions. Republicans did come out afterwards. Their contention is that this was not, in their view, a fair process. They said, while they believe Sondland should have come, they said that they understand his reason for not doing so. One reason why is because Kurt Volker, the former envoy in Ukraine, he came out last week, they released text messages, the Republicans said they should have released more, and they called that not a fair process.

And also notably, Jim and Poppy, I asked whether or not any of them have concerns that Trump asked foreign governments to investigate his political rivals, Jim Gordon said, the president was just doing his job. Guys?

HARLOW: Oh, that's interesting. Okay, Manu, thank you very, very much.

The State Department is really seen very quiet this morning about all of this and it was their decision to stop Sondland from testifying.

Kylie Atwood covers the State Department. She joins us this morning. We saw with our own eyes Mike Pomeo walked away, turn his back on reporters, asking him questions about this. Anymore intel from the State Department itself?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes. The State Department has remained largely silent this morning and throughout the last few weeks. I think it's important to note that this news came to us from Ambassador Sondland's personal lawyer. And I just want to read you the statement that we received this morning that broke this news that he was being prevented from going forth for his deposition on the Hill.

It said from his attorney, Ambassador Sondland is profoundly disappointed that he will not be able to testify today. Ambassador Sondland traveled to Washington from Brussels in order to prepare for this testimony and to be available to answer the committee's questions.

Arrangements had already been made with the Joint Committee staff regarding the logistics of his testimony. Ambassador Sondland believes strongly that he acted at all times in the best interests of the United States and he stands ready to answer the committee's questions fully and truthfully.

So, Poppy, we did receive some sort of indication last week from Secretary Pompeo that this might be coming. He wrote a letter to the Hill saying that there were questions about the legal authority that the Hill was forcing upon these State Department officials to compel them to come forth and talk to them because they had not subpoenaed these officials. So now, does the Hill go forth and issue subpoenas, potentially.

But it appeared, at the time that they had kind of worked through their issues. There were dates that were put on the table, they pushed those dates back.

[10:05:02]

And then just last night, Chairman Schiff said that the House was in discussions with the legal adviser at the State Department, who gave no indication that this was going to be halted in any way. So, clearly, this was a very last-minute decision that the State Department made.

And I think it's important to note that Ambassador Sondland said in his statement that he hopes that this is going to be resolved quickly. But we are really learning no more from the State Department yet this morning.

SCIUTTO: Kylie Atwood, thanks very much.

As we were noting there, we've learned the White House was engaged in late night discussions about blocking Ambassador Sondland's testimony. Jeremy Diamond at the White House this morning.

Jeremy, I wonder, it looks like this order came down from the White House, does it not, as opposed to from State Department, because the State Department is making preparations, and after all, the ambassador flew back from Europe to be here this morning to give that testimony?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right. And what we're hearing is that this is really part of a broader impeachment strategy, which is, of course, being run by the president and his team of lawyers both at the White House Counsel's Office and also his personal lawyers. And what we're being told is that this is indeed part of a broader strategy.

There were discussions late last night between administration officials to discuss essentially how much they want to cooperate with this House impeachment inquiry. We know that this White House has been pressuring House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to move forward with a formal vote on the House floor to formally create this impeachment inquiry.

The House speaker has been adamant that she doesn't need to do that. But this White House has been trying to pressure House Democrats to do in particular to get some of those vulnerable House Democrats to actually put forward a vote and put their name, yes or no, in favor of this impeachment inquiry. So there's a political dimension to this as well.

But I think it's interesting, one of a source familiar with the impeachment discussions told our colleague, Jim Acosta, that the days of playing nice are done. And that is certainly the message from this White House. We also saw that in a tweet from the president this morning where he's attacking -- continuing to attack this House impeachment inquiry, Jim.

HARLOW: Jeremy Diamond, thank you very much. Let us know if you get anymore updates from the White House.

Our CNN Legal Analyst, Jennifer Rodgers, is still with us, Sahil Kapur, Political Reporter of Bloomberg, joins us, and Lynn Sweet, Washington Bureau Chief for the Chicago Sun-Times.

Lynn, let me begin with you. We just had congressman Mike Quigley on, obviously from Illinois, and he said that he believed that the next -- he wasn't sure, but he surmised that the next step among Democrats on the Intelligence Committee, et cetera, would be to subpoena, to subpoena Sondland. and if you get nowhere with that, you hold them in contempt. What choice at this point do Democrats on the committee have?

LYNN SWEET, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Well, they don't have much choice. And I talked to Representative Quigley yesterday too on this very topic I anticipated of White House stonewalling. What the Democrats don't have right now is the game plan to back up what we should now realize that no one of note is going to come testify or cooperate with the Democratic-led House impeachment inquiry. If there's any doubt there that President Trump is calling this -- the shot, just look at the tweet he sent out a few minutes ago, where he said, I'd love to send Sondland, but unfortunately, it's a kangaroo court.

Now, when you take stonewalling to this degree, you're dealing with something that is unknown procedurally and that's where the Democrats have to figure out what to do. Subpoenas got it, the next step, like Congressman Quigley said, then you hold in contempt. But that doesn't get you the information.

HARLOW: Yes.

SWEET: So they have to figure out a new strategy, ball back in Democrats' court.

SCIUTTO: Sahil, let's talk about the politics here. You have this new Washington Post poll showing, and we've watched this public support for impeachment tick up fairly consistently over the last few weeks. 58 percent now say the House was correct to start an impeachment inquiry, 38 percent say no.

But I will say, Sahil, you heard from Republicans that they were briefed on their own party polling which shows opposition in swing districts. And it's that opposition to impeachment in swing districts, and it's that polling that they're more focused on than the national polling. SAHIL KAPUR, BLOOMBERG POLITICAL REPORTER: That's absolutely right, Jim. The polls have shown us a stunning shift in the direction of impeachment among Americans overall. Now, that shift is driven by Democrats moving in favor of impeachment and a lot of independents moving in favor of impeachment. And that's where we get to a net 20- point support for the House Democrats' impeachment inquiry.

But Republicans have not moved as much, and this really key because this gets to the president's strategy. It's less of a legal strategy to deal with it. It's more of a base first P.R. strategy. And as long as Republicans feel in the neighborhood of 80 to 90 percent against impeachment inquiry, as long as his support -- his job approval remains at 80 to 90 percent, it's very difficult to see any kind of conviction happening in this Senate, which is ultimately required to remove the president from office.

[10:10:07]

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: It's a very good point.

So let's, everyone, listen to the part of Adam Schiff's comments this morning that struck Jim and I the most. Here it is.

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SCHIFF: But we are also aware that the ambassador has text messages or emails on a personal device which have been provided to the State Department.

Those messages are also deeply relevant to this investigation and the impeachment inquiry.

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HARLOW: Jennifer Rodgers, two-pronged question, deeply relevant messages that the public hasn't seen yet, and it isn't clear if Schiff's committee hasn't seen them, and also something on a personal device. Moving a conversation, it sounds like a personal device. What do you make of it?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it sounds very much like there were conversations that they wanted to take offline because they didn't want people to know about them, right? And if you follow the texts that have been released, you can see exactly where that happened. They're talking about the tit-for-tat or the quid pro quo, if you will, and then someone says, let's take this offline, let's have a call instead.

And then there's this big period, about five hours or so, where there's no conversation on the official government communications devices, which tells you they were talking about it in some other way. And it sounds like maybe the personal device is the way.

So I think whether or not Schiff and his committee have seen these actual texts, it's pretty clear that his statement that they're highly relevant seems to be true.

SCIUTTO: Reading the politics here, I mean, Sahil makes a good point, that this is a base-first kind of P.R. strategy, not a legal strategy. Look, how does that P.R. strategy work here? I mean, if you have a positive story to tell, you don't block a key witness from testifying, you don't hold back emails and text messages.

I just wonder if it's possible that could backfire on the president and Republicans if Americans see them to be stonewalling here?

KAPUR: Was that for me, Jim?

SCIUTTO: Sorry, that's Lynn. I was quoting your wisdom, Sahil, but going to Lynn for her wisdom.

SWEET: Okay. So that's for me?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SWEET: Well, one of the beefs that President Trump had on his Twitter feed this morning is that no one is reporting, but, in fact we have, this is how we know it, that Sondland sent in a tweet that you're interpreting whatever is going on wrong, nothing untoward is going on.

So one of the things you could do, President Trump, if you think this message needs to be amplified, then you have Sondland come and say it again. If there's another story to tell, everyone wants to hear it. This is not a kangaroo court. If there is another side, exculpatory material, mitigating material, maybe people misinterpreting things, maybe it's not what you think, that's the whole point of why we call this an impeachment inquiry. Let's put the inquiry part of this first, inquiry, impeachment. It's not so hard. And maybe people will understand that if he had a tweet that puts this in a different light, come and explain it.

HARLOW: I would just to know -- Sahil, just back to you on your point about Republicans. I hear what you're just overall. But our new polling today does show movement among Republicans. It shows that Republicans move from 7 percent support for an impeachment inquiry in July to 28 percent in today's Washington Post poll. And I know 28 percent is not 55 percent, but that's movement and it's not just a few percentage points.

KAPUR: Yes. Look, it's an important point. It's a key number to watch. If that number moves to critical mass, and I don't know that number, 33 percent, 40, 50 percent, whatever the case may be, that is the key number to watch in terms of what's likely to happen in the Senate, because chamber is majority Republican, it is full of members in small red states where President Trump is very popular. So if you want movement in terms of House impeachment inquiry, it's something that the president cannot stop. Democrats have the votes to do that.

Now, I think you're going to see a back and forth where Democrats are going to accuse the president of trying to cover something up, being afraid of what Sondland might say by refusing to testify and he's going to continue to attack the investigation, try to undermine the investigators and say this is all political. So, that is going to be the context of the debate in which we might or might not see the Republican numbers move.

SCIUTTO: We do know, Jennifer Rodgers, from a legal perspective, that Democrats, and they said -- Congressman Quigley said that to us on the air, that this is -- there're going to be multiple obstruction -- if not multiple obstruction articles of impeachment, multiple cases of obstruction cited in an article of impeachment and something like this added to that list.

RODGERS: That's right. Because what you really want to show is a pattern of behavior, right? You don't want to just show one instance where they stonewall because maybe there was kind of an excuse for that. You really need to show that, time and time again, they've been obstructing this all along. Which is why the quote about, it's time to stop playing nice, I mean, when were they ever playing nice?

HARLOW: That's what Quigley said to us.

SCIUTTO: I know.

RODGERS: Literally, every step of the way, they have not been proceeding with any sort of faith in this inquiry.

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And so you really need to line all this up.

SCIUTTO: I did see someone tweet this morning that Sondland has been moved to a highly classified server in reference to other examples of where evidence was locked or somehow controlled by this administration.

HARLOW: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Jennifer, all you smart, wise people, thanks very much. We know we will have you back. There's a lot to digest.

Still to come this hour, we continue to follow the breaking news this morning, Trump administration blocking the testimony of a key essential witness really in the impeachment inquiry. We're going to talk potential next steps with a member of the House Judiciary Committee. That's coming up.

HARLOW: Plus, a number of Republican lawmakers criticizing the president's phone call is increasing, this as the president defends his move to pull out of troops of Northern Syria, many more Republicans speaking up about that.

And as the president faces backlash over his handling of Northern Syria, the question remains, why are so many Republicans staying silent on the phone call and speaking out about Syria?

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[10:20:00] SCIUTTO: We're following breaking news this morning and it's moving quickly. The White House blocking E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland from testifying to Congress just minutes before he was supposed to appear on Capitol Hill. He flew in from Europe for this testimony. He was set to testify behind closed doors as part of an ongoing impeachment inquiry into President Trump, specifically about his interactions with Ukraine. Democratic House Intelligence Chairman calling the move to keep Sondland from speaking to lawmakers, quote, strong evidence of obstruction.

Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee. He sits on the House Judiciary Committee, which will have a central role in any ongoing impeachment investigation. Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Nice to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So you have the White House firing a shot across the bow here, refusing to testimony, possible that this will be the first of many cases of stonewalling here. I just wonder how Congress enforces its power of oversight. They can issue a subpoena but the White House has shown no hesitation defying subpoenas. What are Democrats going to do to get the witnesses they need to proceed with this inquiry?

COHEN: The only power they have is subpoena, which is under power of law (INAUDIBLE) for subpoena. And that has to go through the courts. And the courts have been slow. The administration has slow-walked, have continued, appealed, and in certain more powerful contempt efforts to bring somebody in charge them with contempt, the attorney general, Bill Barr, would have to be the prosecuting attorney, and he's not going to prosecute. So it kind of puts us in a difficult position.

SCIUTTO: How do you get out of that position? What do you do? I mean, there's a danger of being stymied here, right, if the White House wins this game.

COHEN: Well, there's some talks about inherent contempt, being able to use that, but perhaps there would have to be procedures set up and the leadership has moved in a very conservative manner, and so I don't know if that's been developed or not.

SCIUTTO: Well, I ask, again -- I mean, we spoke to a member of the House Intelligence Committee in the last hour, Mike Quigley, and he made the point that if this continues, it will stymie Democrats' efforts to establish evidence here of potential wrongdoing, impeachable offences regarding the president's interactions with Ukraine. He does say it gives more evidence of obstruction, but he granted that it gets in the way of getting to the bottom of this. And I'm just curious what the strategy is. It sounds like Democrats are still trying to develop a strategy.

COHEN: Well, I think we are, and I think judiciary had the same problem. We were stonewalled. People refused to comply with subpoenas. We have gone to court on contempt case citations. But the courts are still ruling or/and where they've been appealed. But I think all of this does show obstruction of Congress and that can be a charge in itself. And I think that what they're doing is certainly contributing to obstruction of justice and somebody who's not guilty.

Trump said during the campaign that people who plead the fifth are like the mafia. But when you don't give an oral deposition to Mueller, that's kind of like not pleading -- that's kinds of like pleading the fifth. And when you don't show up to testify or you don't comply with subpoenas, that's kind of like pleading the fifth. They are doing everything they can not to testify, not to be subject to cross-examination, not to have to testify to the American people and their representatives. That's indices of guilt. And overall, you can use that, I think, to show guilt, and that can come forth in an impeachment hearing.

SCIUTTO: Okay. In the same category, you might say, as Adam Schiff revealing this morning that there are text messages and emails on a private device of Ambassador Sondland that the State Department has and is withholding. I wonder how central you think those texts and emails are and do you have an issue with, I mean, just imagine what we were talking about in 2016, but using a private device for official communications?

COHEN: I think that there was a reason why that was done, just like the ambassador told Volker, I believe it was, call me on that one or find another --

SCIUTTO: He said, call me, don't text back. Exactly.

COHEN: He knew that -- right. He didn't want to leave a trail. That's more indices of guilt or bad conduct.

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Okay. The Democrats have an aggressive, ambitious timeline for completing an impeachment inquiry. There was some talk of having it all wrapped up by Thanksgiving. Here we are, October 7th, 8th, and you have the White House stonewalling on key interviews and documents and text messages. You can keep to that timeline?

COHEN: If we do, it's going to have to be an abbreviated amount of facts that we give that are available for the Senate to present in a trial, and that may be what some senators use as their cues not vote. Guilt is the fact that the proof wasn't induced. But, again, there is -- common sense tells you there's guilt all over this White House. They refuse to comply. They refuse to give depositions.

They say -- you know, Trump said I want to talk to Mueller, then he didn't. And then when he gave a deposition, a third to half of his answers, I don't remember and I don't know. That's not being open with the public. And then today, he tweeted just an hour ago, I want Sondland to testify, but it's a kangaroo court. That's all hooey. That's all hooey. This is all hiding the truth, hiding the facts and dodging.

SCIUTTO: Before you go, Congressman, we have some new reporting from our Pamela Brown, saying, it is clear that the White House Counsel's Office is directing other government agencies. It advised the State Department to block Sondland's testimony. What's your reaction to the White House Counsel's Office telling the State Department that this ambassador cannot testify in defiance of Congress?

COHEN: Well, the White House Counsel has done this over a period of time, and they've filed proceedings on behalf of Trump. The court in New York basically said that the claim that they were beyond being investigated or being in the state court was just hooey and was just joke and it's repugnant to the Constitution.

What we see and what we saw yesterday with Trump saying that he had the greatest wisdom and the most -- his infinite wisdom or great wisdom, some quote like that, we're seeing the the Wizard of Oz being played out for the American public. He thinks he is the wizard. The wizard said he was powerful and great, he was powerful and terrible. Trump saw the Wizard of Oz once too much. He's more like the

scarecrow than he is the wizard.

SCIUTTO: All right, or the man behind the curtain. Congressman Steve Cohen, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

COHEN: Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: And this morning, Republicans continue to stay mostly silent about President Trump's call to investigate Biden but is keeping their heads down and mouths shut the wisest move? A GOP strategist and his take on all this, coming up.

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