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Trump Orders Complete U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Syria; Impeachment Inquiry Testimony Continues. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:20]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: All right, we continue on. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now, President Trump's former top adviser on Russia is testifying behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. Her name is Fiona Hill. She -- there she is. She arrived mid-morning. Republicans say she came willingly.

Still, House Democrats subpoenaed her to answer questions in the impeachment inquiry. That is because of, according to one party official, the White House attempts to direct witnesses not to cooperate.

A little bit of background. Hill left her job on the National Security Council before the president's infamous call with the Ukrainian president, and a source says she plans to testify that she didn't know about some aspects of the expanding Ukraine scandal.

Her appearance there today kicks off this pivotal week of testimony before three House committees conducting the impeachment inquiry, the star witness coming Thursday. Trump's ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, will talk, despite the fact that the White House had stopped him from doing so just last week.

Those text messages revealed that Sondland had a key role in Trump's pressuring Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

So we go back to Capitol Hill to our senior congressional correspondent, Manu Raju.

And so, Manu, what are you hearing about Fiona Hill's testimony today?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been four or five hours or so behind closed doors Hill has been answering questions from Republicans and Democrats, answering questions about the run-up to that phone call in July with the president of Ukraine and the president -- President Trump, in which President Trump urged her -- urged the Ukrainian government to investigate the Bidens.

Also, there have been questions about the ouster of the former Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, who came actually here on Friday and testified before this House impeachment probe. And I'm told by a source with knowledge of her testimony that she -- Fiona Hill actually offered praise, high praise, for the former Ukrainian ambassador, and also made clear her position about the removal of her from that position earlier this year.

Of course, Yovanovitch had been targeted by Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani, and Rudy Giuliani's associates. The president himself had said -- had bad-mouthed her to the president of Ukraine.

There are questions that Democrats have about whether or not she had been removed in order to make it easier to pressure the Ukrainian government to investigate the Bidens.

So all that is part of the investigation. There are various threads that are ongoing, including interviewing some of the Giuliani associates. Democrats last week had subpoenaed two Giuliani associates to get information. Those are the same Giuliani associates who have been indicted on federal campaign finance violations.

Another other Giuliani associate, Sam Kislin, I'm told, is being -- quote -- "cooperative" with the House Intelligence Committee. This is according to his attorney.

Now, his attorney says he doesn't have any information to further the impeachment inquiry, but he is being cooperative right now, which is why today Kislin was supposed to be deposed by this committee, but he has not.

So you can see, Brooke, this investigation moving in various directions right now, as Democrats try to plow ahead and try to make a decision on impeachment here in the coming weeks -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right.

So, the Giuliani associate is being cooperative. We know that Hill is speaking praise of Yovanovitch. What about looking ahead to Thursday and the E.U. ambassador? What's expected to come out of that?

RAJU: Yes, that is a highly anticipated moment this week, when Gordon Sondland, the E.U. ambassador here in the United States, he, of course, did not come last week, under the instruction of the State Department via the White House, and did not testify.

Then the Democrats subpoenaed him, just like they subpoenaed Fiona Hill today, but they subpoenaed him directly because the White House had intervened in trying to prevent him from testifying.

Now, we're hearing about -- there are questions about what he would testify about whether there was a -- quote -- "quid pro quo" for seeking knowledge sorry aid being withheld, for the Bidens to be investigated by the Ukrainian government.

Now, he had said, according to some of those text messages that were released, that the president was not seeking a quid pro quo, but reportedly he's going to make clear that he couldn't verify the president's remarks and he did speak with the president about that. So, all those conversations, Brooke, will be part of what is sure to be an intense and daylong event on Thursday -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will be talking all about it. Manu, thank you very much.

Let's just broaden this conversation out a bit more.

With me Leah Wright Rigueur, associate -- excuse me -- assistant professor in public policy at the Harvard Kennedy School, and CNN political analyst Josh Dawsey is a White House reporter for "The Washington Post."

So, good to have both of you on.

And, Leah, just starting with you on -- we aren't sure -- with regard to Fiona Hill today, we aren't sure if the White House tried blocking her, a la Gordon Sondland or Yovanovitch, right, from the week past.

But what we do know is that House Democrats issued a subpoena and that she is still testifying. Do you think the Democrats are adapting to the White House's ways of stonewalling?

[15:05:05]

LEAH WRIGHT RIGUEUR, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC POLICY, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Well, I think the White House made it very clear how they intend to play ball or not play ball last week and in the weeks leading up to this moment.

So this is not necessarily about Ms. Hill testifying or anything like that, but, in fact, making a statement to the White House that we will subpoena, we will get this information by any means possible. We are going to go after the people that have worked in the White House, the people that have worked around the White House, the people that were intimately involved in this, whether or not these figures are here.

I think the other thing to point out is that because Ms. Hill left the White House, she left her documents there at the White House. I think part of the subpoena is a suggestion the part of the Democrats that we want to pull her -- even though she came willingly, we want to pull her here, but we're putting you on alert that we're also going to go after the documents that belong to her that were in that orbit through some way, shape or form, that we intend to get our hands on that.

So this is really about a setup between Democrats and the White House, but also the materials and the narrative that actually took place, and Democrats trying to set up a story and an environment for how and what occurred.

BALDWIN: Sure. So they wanted documents, they wanted materials, but, Josh, obviously we also want her testimony, right?

So what kind of information could she provide on all things Ukraine? And let me add to that, because we also know she was a big Putin critic. She wrote two books on it. Now that she is no longer in the administration, what information could she provide on a Trump-Putin interaction?

JOSH DAWSEY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, for two years, Brooke, she was intimately involved in all things United States and Russia and Ukraine.

She was involved in preparation for meetings with Vladimir Putin. She got detailed readouts of meetings. She got detailed readouts of phone calls. She was in a number of high-level policy meetings in the Situation Room and the EEOB. She was a key person in this portfolio.

So Fiona Hill probably as much as anyone, with the exception of a few people maybe in the government, knows the most about what has transpired over two years. And what you should know about her is that she's been a long time critic of Vladimir Putin, as you said.

She was skeptical of this incursion into Crimea. She was skeptical of his election interference and definitely believed that he interfered in the election, was a pretty visceral critic of Putin inside the administration.

And she's also known as a pretty strict institutionalist that believes foreign policy should be done through the proper channels and protocols of the government, and was not maybe of the Rudy Giuliani variety, who's doing it outside of things.

So there's a lot of information that she certainly has. As you said earlier, she was not there for the phone call. She'd already left. But she's pretty well wired within the Trump administration.

BALDWIN: Great. All right, so they're going to get some information out of her.

What about this Thursday, Leah, and Gordon Sondland? So this is happening after, as Manu pointed out, she was blocked -- or he was blocked from testifying last week. And according to "The Washington Post," he plans to tell Congress that the content of the text message to Bill Taylor denying quid pro quo was actually relayed directly to him by President Trump.

And yet he also says that he has no knowledge of whether Trump was telling him the truth in that moment. So what does that tell you?

WRIGHT RIGUEUR: So I don't think we should actually be surprised by Sondland saying that he's going to do these things and then "The Washington Post" reporting on this, because, in fact, this is what Sondland in this text message exchange with Taylor, where there's this back and forth, and then there's this huge gap in terms of time.

So we shouldn't be shocked or surprised by him saying, this is exactly what I did and this is what happened, because that's what he said in this exchange.

However, one of the things that's going to be really important, and I think Democrats are -- this is what they're doing by pulling him in -- is asking questions about, what happened in that brief -- or that extended period of time where Sondland did not respond? BALDWIN: The five hours?

WRIGHT RIGUEUR: Right, the five hours.

BALDWIN: Right.

WRIGHT RIGUEUR: But then also we shouldn't make this simply about the text message exchange. We also have to talk about, what is the broader culture that would say -- lead to Taylor making an assertion that this is about a political exchange of favors or something like that?

What would lead to that? And so much more expansive interview and testifying around the culture, the environment, and the moment that would lead to those text messages exchanged, that's what Democrats and what Congress is interested in hearing about during this kind of interview.

BALDWIN: OK.

And then just lastly, Josh, back over to you. Just -- Manu just reported, in addition to all of the things we're talking about, that one of those Giuliani associates that had -- the House intelligence and one of those associates has reached this understanding, and that this individual is cooperating.

How does that sit with you? What are you thinking?

DAWSEY: Well, there are a number of key figures around Giuliani who are certainly under intense scrutiny, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, his two associates who were arrested last week, and his work, and their business relationship with Giuliani.

[15:10:03]

We're fully expecting prosecutors and investigators to look at Giuliani's wide network of associates. So that they would be interested in talking to this person and they would be getting information from him is not surprising.

Now, Giuliani has not been formally charged with any sort of wrongdoing, but if you look at the extensive ties he had and who he was keeping close connections with, it certainly makes sense that they would be scrutinizing these people and seeking all the information they can get.

BALDWIN: Josh and Leah, thank you both very much.

DAWSEY: Thank you.

WRIGHT RIGUEUR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We wait to get more information out of what -- this closed- door Fiona Hill appearance today on the Hill.

In the meantime, still to come. President Trump orders the removal of all the remaining U.S. troops from Northern Syria. And now the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, is slamming the move, calling on the president to take corrective action and to -- quote, unquote -- "avoid calamity" in the Mideast.

We have those details ahead.

Also, breaking news in the case of a white police officer who shot and killed a black woman in her own home with her 8-year-old nephew playing video games -- that officer now off the force. How the victim's family is reacting.

And ahead of tomorrow's big presidential debate, Joe Biden and his son are taking on President Trump.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:07]

BALDWIN: It is a decision that blindsided almost everyone.

I'm talking about the president's decision to pull nearly all American troops out of Syria, not just from the northern border area, where the U.S. allies the Kurds are facing military aggression from Turkey, but out of Syria altogether.

Now the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, issued the statement just now saying that the United States must avoid strategic calamity in the Middle East, adding: "Turkey's offensive against our Syrian Kurdish partner is jeopardizing years of hard-won progress in the fight against ISIS."

That is a direct quote.

We are seeing exactly what this is unleashing. The Kurdish fighters are turning to Syria's Bashar al-Assad, a man the U.S. has called a war criminal and who is backed by Russia, for help against Turkey.

The Syrian army is now moving into towns near the border, and that is not all. You have hundreds of ISIS family members, supporters, they have escaped a detention camp in Northern Syria. And there are real fears that ISIS, which the Kurds and the U.S. forces fought together to defeat, will come back.

CNN's Ben Wedeman spent almost two months in Northeastern Syria earlier this year covering what was thought to be the final battle against ISIS. He's written this powerful piece for CNN titled "The War Against ISIS Was All a Waste."

Ben is live in Beirut.

Why a waste, Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A waste because so much time and effort was spent to crush this organization, this terror group, that at one point was the size of Great Britain ruling over as many as 12 million people.

And to suddenly find that the United States precipitously is leaving Syria -- and it's important to keep in mind, even though the physical caliphate, that splotch on the map, no longer exists, in August, the Pentagon inspector general put out a report saying that they estimate that there are anywhere between 14,000 and 18,000 ISIS fighters still loose in Syria and Iraq, that they have a -- as much as $400 million at their disposal.

In addition to that, there are these camps in Northeast Syria that are supposed to be guarded by the Syrian Democratic Forces. In those camps, there are an additional 10,000 ISIS fighters, 2,000 of them foreigners.

And the Kurds warned the United States, going back months, that they did not have the resources to secure these prisons, especially in the event -- and they saw this coming -- of a Turkish invasion.

And now, of course, we're seeing there have been escapes from these prisons. Last month, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the so-called caliph of ISIS, had called upon his reporters to break down the walls of their -- these prisons and free their brethren.

And this is a golden opportunity now for ISIS to do exactly that, because now there is a vacuum, as the Kurds are rushing to counter the Turkish invasion. They simply don't have the wherewithal to secure the prisons, in addition to the camps, where there are as many as 70,000 women and children, the wives and children of the ISIS fighters, who also have created within these camps sort of a microcosm of ISIS itself, where they have imposed the harsh laws that ISIS ruled before, including the execution of those who don't toe the line -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We saw those women, those children in Arwa Damon's own reporting just last month.

You paint a bleak picture. And this all happened because of a decision one week ago.

[15:20:02]

I encourage everyone to read Ben's piece. Go to CNN.com.

Ben Wedeman, thank you very much.

My next guest knows a lot about the Kurds. River Rainbow O'Mahoney Hagg is a documentary filmmaker and Navy veteran. In order to film Kurdish fighters in Syria, he struck a deal with them, became a combat medic with Kurdish fighters, also known as YPG.

And River Hagg is with me now.

So, River, thank you so much for coming on.

Just, first of all, just what's the backstory? Tell me more about how you came to be a combat medic for Kurdish forces in Syria and just what that experience was like.

RIVER RAINBOW O'MAHONEY HAGG, SERVED AS COMBAT MEDIC FOR KURDISH FORCES: Well, thank you, Brooke. I appreciate you giving us the microphone, first of all, as a veteran and as a veteran of the YPG. Thank you very much.

My background being in the Navy and being a United States military veteran, we get basic medical training. As a fireman in the Navy, I got somewhat more advanced training.

So when I got to Rojava, which is the northern part of Syria, and there were no combat medics -- there was a young man from Kentucky and another guy from New Zealand. And we all banded together to create this combat medic unit.

BALDWIN: And so you become this medic, but I have also seen parts of your documentary. Obviously, you have got a camera.

HAGG: Yes.

BALDWIN: And so you tell me -- tell me a little bit about what you saw and what you experienced from our then allies the Kurds?

HAGG: Yes.

Well, what I saw was the Kurds dying and fighting to defeat ISIS. We had some Delta Special Forces that would be in the background directing the airstrikes and stuff, so civilians weren't getting necessarily and needlessly hurt.

ISIS liked to use the civilians as casualties. So we saw a lot of civilian casualties. We saw heavy, heavy, heavy SDF casualties.

There's been around 11,000 Kurds that have been killed, but that doesn't also take into account the tens of thousands ones that have been maimed or lost their limbs. Or just the devastation that war psychologically creates on you is also really, really traumatic.

BALDWIN: Also, using your word traumatic, but to spin it to U.S. Special Forces, I keep reading pieces, quotes where many of these guys feel ashamed because of this decision now to turn their backs, right.

HAGG: Yes, it's awful.

BALDWIN: Talk to me about that. And talk to me about also -- I know you're in touch with your Kurdish friends. How are they responding to this?

HAGG: Well, first of all, it's horrible.

When you fight alongside people, you become very close to them. And the U.S. Special Forces were a very critical component in the defeat of ISIS. They worked very closely with our Kurdish allies, not only helping them to avoid needless casualties, but also giving them additional air support. And they gave us a bunch of medical supplies. We were able to help a lot of people with their medical supplies. The chief that was in charge of the medics there with the Delta guys that were in Manbij at that time gave us what he said was a month's worth of medical supplies. And we went through him in three days.

So the amount of blood that was spilled to defeat ISIS is tremendous. And what's so terrifying for my friends there that I speak to you right now is that they feel completely alone and abandoned and they're terrified, because Assad, you have to remember, didn't let the Kurds speak their own language, didn't even give them citizenships.

If you were Kurdish in Syria before the Arab Spring, you couldn't get a passport, you couldn't get a driver's license, you were treated pretty much like a non-citizen.

So for them to be pushed back to Assad is -- it's tragic, and all in the decision of Donald Trump, who betrayed the American people. He betrayed the values of what America stands for, the home of the brave.

And that's, to me, also incredibly tragic, as a lot of other service members, I think, feel, because I think that what he's done is betrayed years and years of our sacrifice and blood there. And he just gave it away, so he could build a hotel in Istanbul or sell jets to Turkey.

I mean, it's subjective, but...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yes, we can't go there. We don't know what his ultimate...

HAGG: I apologize.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But this was the decision that came out of the conversation with Erdogan.

HAGG: These are what my friends are sharing, yes.

BALDWIN: Sure. Sure.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: River, no, I appreciate you coming on. Thank you for your service. Thank you for shining a light on the Kurds in your film. I appreciate it.

And to your point of criticism, even Mitch McConnell, the top Republican in the Senate, is also critical of the president of the United States.

HAGG: Yes.

BALDWIN: River, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it.

HAGG: Thank you for having me on CNN. BALDWIN: Ahead of tomorrow night's CNN debate, Joe Biden ramps up his

effort to defend his son against President Trump, even vowing that no one in his family would serve in the White House if he becomes president.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:58]

BALDWIN: On the eve of tomorrow's CNN/"New York Times" presidential debate, Joe Biden makes a move to mute criticism of his son's foreign business ties.

The former vice president is unveiling a new ethics --