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Democratic Debate in Ohio; Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA) is Interviewed on Impeachment Inquiry; Ex-Officer Charged with Murder in Texas. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired October 15, 2019 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:32:16]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, another day, another poll.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A lot of polls.
HARLOW: A new Quinnipiac University poll out this morning shows it is a horse race, neck and neck, for the leading Democratic contenders. Senator Elizabeth Warren sits at 30 percent, compared to former Vice President Joe Biden at 27 percent. That is a statistical tie. It's within the margin of error.
Ten other candidates, of course, will be on the debate stage tonight. In that group, only Bernie Sanders has double-digit support, though.
Joining us now, CNN's senior political analyst, democratic strategist, Bob Barnett. David Gergen is here, former presidential adviser to Presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton.
Good morning, gents.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.
ROBERT BARNETT, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.
HARLOW: Bob, let me start with you because you have had a little hand in debate prep for Democrats, I think more than anyone, helping them since 1976.
So, tonight, is this just a two-way race? Is it just Biden/Warren? Is that it?
BARNETT: Well, you've got 12 people on the stage.
HARLOW: Yes.
BARNETT: And you've got two and a half hours, maybe three hours. Each person gets 9, 10 minutes. That's not a lot. It's going to be, first of all, very hard to manage, I think. Each group, each tier --
HARLOW: Well, it's a good thing CNN's moderating it, because we know how to time manage.
BARNETT: Yes, that's right, they'll handle it.
Each tier sort of has a different prerogative and a different imperative. I think the three leaders have their own particular things. We can talk about that.
I think the people in the second tier have to try to get into the first tier. And the also rans have to get into the next debate. And with the criteria being raised, that's going to be harder and harder.
SCIUTTO: David, in previous debates, that second tier has tried to make the leap by attacking one or more of the frontrunners, right? And that didn't work for Kamala Harris. It didn't work --
GERGEN: It didn't work for Castro either.
SCIUTTO: Didn't work for Castro either. So how do you -- I mean because the -- because the outlines of this race are pretty consistent, where you had Biden, Warren and now Sanders falling off a bit and then a second tier. That hasn't changed.
GERGEN: Well, that's right. But I think this is -- debate is different in one sense, and that is, in the previous debates they were able to drive the conversation themselves. They had their own plans for health -- Medicare for all or whatever it may be.
This time there are two major issues surrounding Trump, impeachment and Syria, that are going to --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GERGEN: I think take an awful lot of time. And the requirements I think for Joe Biden, for example, I think he just sort of had to wake up in the earlier debates and show more vitality. This time he's got to show that he can be a tough commander in chief.
BARNETT: Yes.
GERGEN: That's the same thing that Elizabeth Warren is going to face. People are going to be asking, how would you handle Syria? And what mistakes or what positive things can come out of this?
BARNETT: If I were working on tonight's planning for any of these candidates, I would discourage cross-fighting.
GERGEN: Yes.
BARNETT: You pointed out, it didn't work in two instances. And the attack on Barack Obama in one of the debates --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BARNETT: Give me a break. I think that's a big mistake.
[09:35:00] I think you want to talk about abandoning the Kurds. You want to talk about his children's overseas business. We'll talk about losing five federal court cases in one day. Talk about separating children from their parents. I think it's time now to start doing that kind of talking.
GERGEN: Yes.
HARLOW: How about direct answers? I mean I think Axios made a good point this morning, they laid out some questions they think the candidates should be asked, and one of them was simply, do you believe that Turkey is still a U.S. ally?
GERGEN: Yes. Right.
HARLOW: Right. And that's a yes or no answer.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GERGEN: Sure.
HARLOW: And I think what I've seen in some of the past debates, there's too much dancing.
GERGEN: I totally agree. They've got to be very straightforward and here's what I would do.
But what -- but there's another element of this debate, which I think is different, and that is, they've been pretty stiff in these earlier debates. I think one of the questions that voters have always is, do I want this person in my living room for the next four years? Do I want to listen to this person? And do I feel comfortable with that? And I think each one of them needs to lighten up sometimes and show a more human face --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GERGEN: So that they feel like, OK, I know you're strong, I know you're effective, I know you can fight Trump --
HARLOW: Right.
GERGEN: But do I also like you?
HARLOW: Oh.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.
HARLOW: Interesting.
SCIUTTO: They all have a mirror (ph) test.
HARLOW: Yes.
BARNETT: There's also a very interesting physical challenge for Bernie Sanders. He's obviously had unfortunate health problems. And having done literally dozens of these, two and a half hour debates, practicing, obviously, it is a physically difficult thing to do to stand there for two and a half hours. So I think he's going to have to pass that test, obviously. But he's also going to have to address what really happened. What happened with the transparency? And is he strong enough to go forward and, of course, be president. So he's got a whole different imperative that has nothing to do with the substantive part.
SCIUTTO: Particularly hard, I think, for these folks to stand there while not talking, right?
BARNETT: Yes.
HARLOW: Right.
SCIUTTO: That requires, you know, enormous self-control.
David Gergen, headline from these polls lately, and I know our poll -- our polling analysts make the point that it's still a statistical tie between Warren and Biden at the top.
GERGEN: Right.
SCIUTTO: But you have a couple polls now where Warren has nipped Biden.
GERGEN: Yes.
SCIUTTO: And Biden had been the unassailable frontrunner.
GERGEN: Right.
SCIUTTO: How much have the dynamics of this race changed, in your view? And a second question, if I can, is, is the conventional wisdom correct that Warren cannot beat Trump in the key swing states?
GERGEN: Oh, I -- I think the conventional wisdom about Elizabeth Warren went out the window a long time ago. You know, she's run a much better race than most of the other candidates. She's got a better field organization. She's got more of a message. She knows how to talk because of her years in the classroom. She knows how to take something complicated and make it sound pretty straightforward.
SCIUTTO: Right.
GERGEN: All of those things have been working in her favor, you know, so that I think she's -- she has taken the lead back for -- you know, taken the lead. She's not far ahead. But what I do think also has changed, we thought of this as a three-person race only a few weeks ago. Now, with the heart attack for Bernie Sanders --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HARLOW: We got --
GERGEN: And he's -- and he's dropping in this poll, it looks more and more like a two-person race. HARLOW: We've got ten seconds. What would be the first question you'd
ask out of the gate tonight if you were the moderators?
BARNETT: I'd go right to Syria. I'd go right to Syria. I think it's clearly -- it's got a cord there. People know these are allies. They died for us. We're abandoning them. And I think that's something that's very important to talk about. And I hope they'll talk about it.
HARLOW: Yes, substantive.
BARNETT: Yes.
HARLOW: Thank you, gentlemen.
SCIUTTO: Thanks to both of you.
GERGEN: Thank you very much.
HARLOW: Maybe we should postgame with you tomorrow.
SCIUTTO: That's not a bad idea.
GERGEN: We're up for that.
HARLOW: Come on back. OK.
GERGEN: OK.
HARLOW: All right, remember to watch, obviously. This is the fourth Democratic presidential debate. It airs live tonight from the battleground state of Ohio, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, only right here on CNN.
We'll be right back.
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[09:43:19]
SCIUTTO: This just moments ago, the arrival of George Kent for his testimony on The Hill. He's a deputy assistant secretary covering European affairs at the State Department. He was also a top figure -- a top official in the U.S. embassy in Ukraine to 2018 and during some of these interactions. Promising to be important testimony as the impeachment inquiry continues there. That just moments ago.
Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, he is on the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees and was in the room for the nearly ten-hour deposition yesterday from Fiona Hill, who was, until recently, the president's top Russia adviser.
Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.
REP. ERIC SWALWELL, (D-CA): Good morning, Jim. Good morning, Poppy.
SCIUTTO: So you were in the room for Fiona Hill's testimony, as well as other witnesses testifying. Have you heard evidence to this point that would support articles of impeachment against this president?
SWALWELL: Yes, Jim, we have. But the president's going to get a fair process. It will be a swift process. But we'll continue to do our work.
And just so your viewers understand, Jim, essentially a tip was placed, you know, through the whistleblower tip line that, you know, the president was engaged in this extortion scheme with the Ukrainians and that a cover-up was underway. Now we have sought to interview witnesses who, you know, may have seen this going on and every arrow continues to point in the same direction, which corroborates what the whistleblower said, which corroborates what the president, frankly, said in his own words confessing to the act. And we're going to continue to, you know, fill the picture in and very shortly release the transcripts to the American people and then decide, where do we go from there?
SCIUTTO: And are you hearing evidence, not just that the president and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, sought help from Ukraine, do you see evidence so far that there was a quid pro quo?
[09:45:06]
In other words, that they used the leverage, both of military aid and a meeting with the president, to get that help, that investigation of Joe Biden and his son?
SWALWELL: I can promise your viewers that we are not going to see evidence that the words quid pro quo were used because in the history of quid pro quo, no one ever say, hey, I've got a quid pro quo for you.
SCIUTTO: Right.
SWALWELL: But, if you step back and look at what was going on here, Ukraine depends on the United States for security assistance. They desperately wanted a meeting between their new president and our president. And the security assistance was being withheld. The meeting was not happening. And the president, through Rudy Giuliani, his personal agent, was saying that for that to happen they had to exonerate Russia for their role in the 2016 election and investigate the Bidens. Sounds pretty damn close to a quid pro quo to me. And, again, you're just not going to hear those words. But it looks like that was what was going on.
SCIUTTO: John Bolton was very close to this issue, according to Hill's testimony. He described Giuliani as a hand grenade that's going to blow us all up.
Do you plan to call John Bolton to testify?
SWALWELL: You know, I'll leave that to the chairman. You know, each time a witness comes in and cooperates, rather than defying subpoenas, we learn more, and we bring more witnesses in.
Again, we're not trying to, you know, ask everyone in Washington who may have heard a rumor to come in. We just want relevant witnesses. So far I think we've been very surgical in who we've heard from and, you know, plan to continue to do that.
But, again, this process will be fair but swift. We're not dragging this out.
SCIUTTO: I want to talk about Syria now. The president is now imposing -- promising to impose sanctions on Turkey. This, of course, after Turkey has already rolled the tanks in, literally, to northern Syria there and is getting control of the territory it wants.
Practically, are sanctions -- do they have a snowball's chance of changing Turkey's behavior here?
SWALWELL: Yes, they do. And, you know, Turkey, as you know, Jim, is also a NATO ally. And I don't think they want to be kicked out of NATO, which is also something that I think may be on the table here. And so we should, in a bipartisan way, seek to do that, to change Turkey's behavior.
But, again, when it comes to foreign relations, leadership has to come from the top. The president of the United States sets the foreign policy for the United States. And if in secret phone calls with Turkey's leader he is essentially giving them a green light, and then when he gets the blowback from, you know, the American press and people at home changes the policy, you know, Turkey, how do they interpret that? That's -- that's very confusing for them.
SCIUTTO: To be clear, do you support threatening Turkey's expulsion from NATO to get them to reverse course?
SWALWELL: I think it should be on the table. I -- absolutely it should be on the table.
SCIUTTO: OK.
SWALWELL: Turkey has been an ally. I do not -- to your question earlier, I think every presidential candidate should be asked about this. I don't think they're an ally today, but that can change if they are to change their behavior. You know, get rid of their corrupt practices and come back into, you know, the value set that NATO countries have.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And stop buying Russian weapons, of course. There's that issue.
SWALWELL: Right.
SCIUTTO: Final question, because I think this is a way that people at home can relate to what seems a distant problem, Syria.
ISIS fighters, who were captured, and, of course, this president claimed victory in defeating ISIS, are now being freed. I mean they're escaping in the midst of this onslaught.
What danger does that pose? Should Americans be concerned that these ISIS terrorists will show up on the streets of the west in short order because -- as a result of this policy?
SWALWELL: First, you know, thank you to all of the men and women in law enforcement who work every day to make sure that will not happen.
But, of course, we're vulnerable to that and more vulnerable if more fighters are going, you know, through western Europe and able to transit over to the United States.
I think Secretary Mattis said it best over the weekend, that ISIS has not been defeated and we are more vulnerable today because of Turkey's actions, which is directly related to the green light that President Trump gave them.
SCIUTTO: Congressman Eric Swalwell, thanks very much for joining the program this morning.
SWALWELL: Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Poppy.
HARLOW: Significant to hear him say right now Turkey is not a U.S. ally, is not acting as a U.S. ally.
SCIUTTO: And to use that as a cajole, as leverage would be significant.
HARLOW: Yes, it would.
OK, so still ahead, a now former Fort Worth police officer is charged with murder after fatally shooting a woman in her own home this weekend. And that woman's brother is speaking with CNN demanding justice. That is next.
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[09:53:38]
SCIUTTO: We are expecting to hear from the Fort Worth Police Department this morning about the arrest of a now former officer, Aaron Dean. He shot and killed Atatiana Jefferson in her own home this weekend while he was performing a wellness check.
HARLOW: Dean was charged with murder last night. He posted bond and has been released.
Omar Jimenez is joining us again this morning from Fort Worth on this story.
Thank you for being with us, Omar.
How did Atatiana Jefferson's family react when that murder charge came down late yesterday?
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, from the beginning, Atatiana Jefferson's family has wanted an independent investigation because they feel the police department can't be trusted to investigate one of their own. Nonetheless, Aaron Dean was arrested last night, unclear if it was by a Fort Worth police officer or if he turned himself in, but arrested and charged with murder yesterday evening. He has since posted bail. But the family says that while the arrest is a step in the right direction, the pursuit towards justice is still far from over.
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ADARIUS CARR, VICTIM'S BROTHER: He did get what I wanted him to get, and this is only the start. There's no way this is enough. We know this is a good step the direction, though, where we want to go, but it's definitely not the end.
[09:55:05]
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You want justice.
CARR: Absolutely. I demand it. It has to happen.
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JIMENEZ: And we're expecting a press conference from police in a little over an hour now. We're going to try and follow up on a few things, specifically in regards to the department saying they sent a preliminary case to the FBI for a potential civil rights violation and the family says they want to see this through to prosecution and sentencing as well.
Poppy. Jim.
HARLOW: Wow.
SCIUTTO: It's just an alarming case. Thoughts to her family, no question.
Omar Jimenez, thanks very much.
HARLOW: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: And still to come this hour, another key witness testifying in front of lawmakers amid the growing impeachment inquiry of the president. We're on top of all the news. We'll be back in a second.
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