Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

British PM Loses Crucial Vote To Fast-Track Bill; Putin And Erdogan Reach Deal On Turkish-Syrian Border; Bill Taylor's Testimony Stuns Congress; Top Republicans Break With Trump Over Lynching Comment; Impeachment Not A Major Issue In Howard County, Iowa; U.S. Defense Secretary Lays Out Syria Strategy; Salmon Shortage Threatens Food Chain in Northwest U.S. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired October 23, 2019 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[01:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Vause. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Studio Seven at CNN's World Headquarters. Ahead this hour, a historic moment and that it wasn't. British Parliament approves a Brexit deal, then votes no to passing a Brexit deal.

Redrawing the map, Russia and Turkey dividing up the territory seas in northern Syria. In real-time, it seems, Vladimir Putin filling the power vacuum left behind by America's retreat.

And the phone calls are coming from inside the house. Another senior official from within the Trump administration delivers damning testimony to Congress over Ukraine.

Well, for the first time in three and a half years since the shock referendum results are a majority in favor of leaving the European Union, U.K. lawmakers have agreed on a way forward with Brexit. They backed Boris Johnson's deal in principle. But the Prime Minister's victory was short-lived because Members of Parliament then rejected his timetable, forcing Johnson to pause Brexit.

The E.U. is now considering a flexible extension until January 31. CNN's. Nic Robertson breaks down the U.K. Parliament's busy Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, after almost six hours of very intense debate, the Prime Minister got the result he wanted, the withdrawal agreement bill passed 329 to 299. But the victory was short-lived. The vote immediately after on the program motion setting out three days to go through the fine detail of the law was beaten 322 to 308.

The leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbyn rose to his feet immediately after offering the Prime Minister an opportunity to extend this hard October 31st deadline. JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER, LABOUR PARTY: The Prime Minister is the author of his own misfortune. So I make this offer to him tonight. Work with us -- work with us, all of us to agree a reasonable timetable. And I suspect this house will vote to debate, scrutinized, and I hope immense the detail of this bill. That would be the sensible way forward.

ROBERTSON: With the prime minister had earlier warned if he lost that second vote, then he would stop the process, that he would then move to a general election. When push came to shove, however, he didn't answer Jeremy Corbyn's question, and he pushed the decision towards the European Union.

BORIS JOHNSON, PRIME MINISTER, UNITED KINGDOM: Is that the government must take the only responsible course and accelerate our preparations for a no-deal out. But secondly, I will speak -- I will speak to E.U. member states about their intentions until they have reached a decision. Until we reach a certain -- I must say, we will pause this legislation.

ROBERTSON: And within a few hours of that, the European Council President Donald Tusk responded, saying that he would recommend to E.U. leaders that they give the United Kingdom the extension that the British Prime Minister asked for over the weekend.

But where things go from here is still anyone's guess. Will it end up in an election? Will it end up and more time to go through the bill? It really isn't clear. A big hurdle trust for the Prime Minister, a big success for the Prime Minister, can he build on that and how is that going to do it, just not clear right now. Nick Robison, CNN London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: British journalist Josh Boswell joins us out from Los Angeles. So clearly the concern for Johnson is that this just opens the door for return to endless negotiations, renegotiations, and pilgrimages to Brussels. But riddle me this background, do they actually agree on a new deal? Do they like what's in this or do they just agreed to this deal so they could try and change it later on?

JOSH BOSWELL, BRITISH JOURNALIST: It's pretty much the latter, yes. They -- the vote and that one majority of 30 in the House of Commons was merely putting forward this deal to the next stage of the process. And that's a stage where MPs can tack on amendments, as you say, and those amendments are ones that could sink this bill.

We're talking about adding a second referendum on the end of it so that it will be put to the British public again. Another amendment that might bring the whole of the U.K. into the customers union, something that the hardline Brexiteers in Boris Johnson's party would not be able to stomach, and that would ruin any majority for the deal, and would also make it something different to what Boris had actually negotiated with the E.U.

So really, the tough times of this bill are yet to come. And I think that we shouldn't take this majority that it's got for the first -- the first vote in Parliament too strongly. Really, it's the -- it's the second bill that was voted on today that actually gives us stronger sense of the majority in parliament, and that is against Boris Johnson.

[01:05:31]

VAUSE: And while he -- Boris Johnson made it clear he does not want this Brexit extension. Here he in Parliament. He sees to be drawing a red line. If there is an extension -- an extension, how long it should. Be here is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I will in no way allow months -- no wait -- allow months more of this. If Parliament refuses to allow Brexit to happen, and instead gets its way and decides to delay everything until January or possibly longer, in no circumstances can the government continue with this. And I with great regret, I must direct to the point that the honorable gentlemen raises. With great regret, I must say that the bill will have to be pulled and we will have to go forward much as the honorable gentleman we may not like it, we will have to go forward to a general election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: I guess the feeling is that Brexit delayed is a Brexit denied. But on the issue of a general election, nothing is as easy as it sounds he says in Parliament because what Johnson needs to support within the house to call an early election?

BOSWELL: That's right, yes. Due to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, he does need two-thirds of Parliament to start a general election. Now Jeremy Corbyn has come out in favor of a general election. And it's unclear whether his MPs are going to back him on that but certainly, the Leader of the opposition party is pushing for a general election too. It's something that we may seem see fairly soon now.

But the reason that a lot of Labour MPs aren't particularly happy about that, aren't looking forward to it is because they're trailing by about 15 points in the polls. And Boris Johnson could well clear up if he manages to have this election on the grounds of I'm trying to put through Brexit, Parliament is stopping me, let me have a majority, British public, so that I can get this through and get Brexit done as his slogan is.

VAUSE: Yes. He is very high on the opinion polls at the moment despite everything. We should remind everybody though, the final call here on any extension is with the European Union. France has been playing the role of bad cop and all this, insisting on some kind of political shake-up before granting any kind of delay or extension. How unified is the EU on this?

BOSWELL: Well, I think they are very unlikely to say no to an extension or to grant anything that's significantly shorter. I think we're very likely to see a January 31 extension coming out of Brussels because the European Council President Donald Tusk has already tweeted that. That's what he's going to be pushing forward.

You've got the French President kind of agitating, but more for domestic political reasons, more to make it a show of things. It's -- I think it's very unlikely he would veto or really push to limit this. So I think we're looking at January 31st, and an election beforehand.

VAUSE: OK, good times ahead. Josh, thanks for coming in. Good to see you.

BOSWELL: Thanks, John.

VAUSE: In northern Syria, there's been a dramatic shift in the balance of power. While the U.S. brigade ceasefire winding down, the leaders of Russia and Turkey have agreed on their own plan to try and restore calm.

Under this deal, Kurdish fighters must withdraw even further from the Turkish border. Russia and Turkey will conduct joint patrols to enforce the buffer zone, and Turkey will be an ultimate control over territory between Ras al-Ayn and Tel Abyad.

Now, on a visit to Idlib province, Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian President told his forces that Erdogan, the president of Turkey is a thief stealing land. Jill Dougherty is a CNN Contributor and Global Fellow for the Woodrow Wilson Center. She was also CNN's Moscow Bureau Chief for many years, and she is with us this hour from Washington. Jill, good to see you.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, John.

VAUSE: OK. Talk about the optics here. I mean, this is the President of Russia, inviting a NATO ally to his retreat in Sochi where you know, for six hours, they redrew the map of the Middle East. They said (INAUDIBLE) these 500 square miles of Syrian territory. You know, Putin has been trying to drive a wedge between Turkey and the West for years. Is it almost time here for Putin to hang out the mission accomplished banner?

DOUGHERTY: There's so many ways that he could, John, because you're right, the optics are one thing. But I mean, you're going to have, if his plan works, you're going to have Turkish troops and Russian troops patrolling together, and Turkey an ally, a NATO ally of the United States really astounding.

But I think, you know, you'd have to say that right now Russia is depicting Vladimir Putin, and Vladimir Putin is definitely playing that role, of a person who was loyal to his friends, talks to any country, does not demand anything from anybody else, is an honest broker. And look at the way he's improved relations.

And now you have Turkey, and not only Turkey, but just a week or two ago, he was in Saudi Arabia with an amazing reception. He has good relations with Iran. He has good relations with Israel. So he really now is becoming, you could say, the power broker in the Middle East as the United States pulls out.

[01:10:41]

VAUSE: With regards to the U.S. point of view on you know, the recent events with the Kurds, the U.S. Defense Secretary has defended this decision for a troop withdrawal, essentially saying it's a question of priorities. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ESPER, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: That's one of the challenges I face as Secretary Defense trying to implement our new national defense strategy is how do I reposition our forces to deal with the threats of the coming decades, which is China, number one, and Russia number two.

As I look around the globe, I see our forces tied down in multiple locations. Man, if you step back, you'd see American forces easily in 80, 90 countries around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: OK, so if Russia is, you know, the number two challenger or threat, if you like, you know, the other context here is that for the past 50 years, American foreign policy was focused on keeping Russia out of the Middle East. It seems that you know, as Donald Trump was walking out of Syria, he held the door open for Putin to walk right in.

DOUGHERTY: Yes. And Putin is re-establishing ties that actually go back much further. You know, the Soviet Union had many ties with the Middle East that kind of dissipated after the end of the Soviet Union and he's simply going back.

I mean, Syria is a place that Russia and the Soviet Union had a relationship going way back to Assad's father. So all of these connections he is reestablishing, and at the very same time the United States and President Trump says, we don't need this anymore, we don't need to be there.

But those troops that we were just talking about, it wasn't a whole lot of troops that it sounds good to say the national security strategy says that it's China and Russia. But actually, there are places that the United States, even with small numbers of troops has to be if the United States is to play a leadership role.

If the decision is not to be -- to play a leadership role, then pull out. But you can see already that a precipitous pullout can be very, very destabilizing.

VAUSE: You can be in favor of the policy, but you know, critical of the way it was executed. The view though, from the U.S. President and many others seems to be that the Russians and the Turks have just won custody of a quagmire. Others have argued that Syria is just a disaster. It's a broken country and no one wins out of this.

I guess there's some truth in that in part, but it seems very -- you know, not the big-picture view, if you like, instead of focusing on the immediate and the small picture.

DOUGHERTY: You know, it couldn't get any worse really, John. You know, quagmire, it's already a quagmire and they're in it. So I don't think that argument holds up. It says bigger picture. It's not just, you know, Syria, it's the Middle East.

And again, what we're just going through, all of these places of Vladimir Putin is reestablishing relationships and depicting himself in playing the role of a leader playing a bad hand very, very well, actually. So it's not to Syria.

And I think that the -- if you look long term, this is a major decision. It will have ramifications that will go on for years.

VAUSE: There have been a series of those sort of decisions coming from this White House that you know, will have ramifications for many years to come. And this, of course, is up on the top ten, I would say. Jill, thank you. Good to see you.

DOUGHERTY: Thank you, John.

VAUSE: Well, the Democrats, they call it troubling, dramatic, damning. Testimony from the U.S. envoy to Ukraine has rocked much of Washington, but will Republicans be moved towards impeachment? That's next?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not yet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it hasn't broken through it for you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it hasn't yet. You know, I guess, to me, the things seem kind of minor I guess as of yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: To some Iowa voters, impeachment is not a big factor ahead of the 2020 election. So what do they consider more important? That's also when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:15:00]

PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN INTERNATIONAL METEOROLOGIST: (INAUDIBLE) Meteorologist Pedram Javaheri, CNN "WEATHER WATCH". How about the mild temperatures and warm weather across the southern tier of the United States where a quiet pattern really for the eastern half of the United States, while back towards the west, activity still brewing across the region with some not only heavy snowfall in the forecast, but also extreme heat across the Southwest. But storms pushing in across this region. Certainly want to bring in another shot of wet weather over the next several days.

In fact, look at this. So, we go in from, say, Thursday through Saturday. Rainfall amounts rather heavy across portions of the South, where still, a lot of this region remains drought stricken. So, all this rainfall in large part will be beneficial. How about into the mountains? How about some decent amounts of snowfall. As much as 45 to 60 plus centimeters in and around portions of Wyoming into western and central Colorado, into the Rockies, and then back towards the Southwest where conditions remain quiet. That's where the winds howling across this region.

Not only do we have red flag warnings in place, we do have fire weather watches as well in place. Look at these temperatures, you can thank the Santa Ana winds for this highs, climbing up to 34 degrees in Los Angeles where 26 is considered normal for this time of year and this will certainly make it for a dangerous go when it comes to fire weather activity across the region. San Francisco into the middle- 20s, New York City, a beautiful autumn day, at 17 degrees and sunny skies. The tropics, we go, Belize City around 28.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: Onto the presidential impeachment inquiry, and it does not get much more explicit than testimony for the former U.S. envoy to Ukraine. Appearing before Congress, Bill Taylor, tied Donald Trump directly to quid pro quo in Ukraine. It is perhaps the most damaging of all the evidence so far. And Democrats are not done yet. On Wednesday, it will be Laura Cooper's turn, the top Pentagon official for Ukraine policy. She was involved with overseeing the aid package which was frozen by the Trump administration. Now, some Republicans are trying to downplay Taylor's testimony, one Democrat call it, the most disturbing day of his life in Congress so far. We have details from CNN's Manu Raju.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What -- like he said in this testimony was that the President, conditioned everything, quote, everything on this public declaration that the probes were taking place because President Trump wanted President Zelensky of Ukraine in a, quote, public box, to make that declaration that there was a probe ongoing in order to before they decided whether or not to release that aid, and whether or not they agreed before agreeing to a meeting that Zelensky sought in Washington with Trump, but Trump had yet to agree to that. This all comes amid significant concerns of -- from a number of people that they have raised about the President's efforts to push off bolstering this key strategic alliance with Ukraine.

[01:20:00]

Until these investigations are pursued, until Rudy Giuliani, the President's personal attorney was dealt with. He had directed a number of U.S. officials to talk to us officially Rudy Giuliani. But it also contradicts in some ways testimony from last week with the U.S. ambassador to European Union, Gordon Sondland, who provided some different accounts of some of these conversations. So, there'll be further questions from lawmakers to clarify that testimony. But nevertheless, Democrats are coming out saying they believe they have heard even more evidence to say that there was a quid pro quo demand from the President of the United States to -- for the Ukrainian government, do something to help his reelection in order to release aid that have been approved by the United States Congress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Perhaps design the president is becoming increasingly concerned about the impeachment inquiry. On Twitter, he lashed out, calling it a lynching, a loaded racial term in the U.S. But one Republican lawmaker Jim Jordan says that Donald Trump is just frustrated. CNN's Kaitlan Collins has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: President Trump has derided Democrats impeachment probe as a witch hunt and a fraud. But today, he drew swift condemnation after he went even further and likened it to a lynching. Trump tweeting that the impeachment inquiry is without due process, or fairness, or any legal rights, as he urged Republicans to remember this in the future. But critics said he should remember the past. Democrats immediately rebuked the President for evoking the racist history of barbaric white mob murders of black people.

REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): He knew exactly what he was saying. He knows exactly how we come across. Why would you use the term lynching? Why would you say that?

COLLINS: Members of Trump's own party distanced themselves from his words, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Given the history in our country, I would not compare this to a lynching. That was an unfortunate choice of words.

COLLINS: Tim Scott, the only African-American Republican Senator had this to say.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): There's no question that the impeachment process is the closest thing of a political death road trial. So, if I get his absolute rejection of the process, I wouldn't use the word lynching.

COLLINS: The President did find a vocal defender and Lindsey Graham, the other Senator from South Carolina, who endorsed his choice of words.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): So yes, this is a lynching in every sense. This is un-American.

COLLINS: At the White House, aids insisted Trump wasn't comparing himself to one of the darkest moments in American history.

HOGAN GIDLEY, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He is receiving zero due process from Democrats on the Hill. That's what he's talking about. Are we going to talk about something else or we can continue with the tweet?

(CROSSTALK)

GIDLEY: Ask me about Syria, please,

COLLINS: The President's tweet coming as pressure on the White House over the probe is intensifying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hogan, is this intended as a distraction?

COLLINS: A steady stream of current and former officials have continued to testify under oath on Capitol Hill, despite a White House vow not to cooperate.

And with the President's tweet about the word lynching today, Republicans are frustrated. They will spend time defending that instead of being able to capitalize on this what they believe is an effective messaging strategy, saying that the Democrats are treating the President unfairly. And then this comes as CNN learning that the President's allies are urging him to realize that impeachment is headed his way, and it seems more likely than not that he is going to be impeached by the house. They want him to start taking it more aggressively, but not in the way that he did with that tweet. Kaitlan Collins, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Well, a new CNN poll shows half of Americans believe President Trump should be impeached and removed from office as a new high, about 14-point jump since March. Donald Trump's approval rating overall remain steady. 41 percent. He still has the backing from Republicans just six percent support impeachment. A voter in key state of Iowa, they backed Donald Trump in 2016, they moved away from the Democrat Barack Obama four years earlier. Among all the issues they're concerned about, it seems impeachment is not one of them. Here's Miguel Marquez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron Schatz, fourth generation farmer in Cresco, Iowa.

AARON SCHATZ, IOWA FARMER: This is corn and wheat chop, and then we feed it to the cows. And --

MARQUEZ: His world, a wife, two kids, 1,500 acres of corn and soybeans, milk and beef cows, two dogs, and a goat named Gus. He's one of many voters in this Northeastern Iowa county who supported Obama twice then voted for Donald Trump.

SCHATZ: I don't see I guess anybody in the Democratic field that I am too comfortable with yet. I guess we got to wait and see who comes out.

MARQUEZ: So, you're open to voting for a Democrat?

SCHATZ: I'm open but not probably by a lot.

MARQUEZ: Trade and health care, his biggest concerns. Impeachment doesn't rate.

Does impeachment play into your decision about him, or your feeling about him at all?

SCHATZ: Not yet.

MARQUEZ: But it hasn't broken through it for you?

[01:25:02]

SCHATZ: No, it hasn't yet. You know, I guess, to me, the thing seemed kind of minor, I guess, as of yet, you know?

MARQUEZ: Minor in that all politicians do this sort of stuff?

SCHATZ: Yes, I'm sure they all do it. I mean, I think you can dig up dirt on everyone, you know?

MARQUEZ: Business owner Barb Gardner also voted for Obama then Trump, something she says she probably won't do again but not because of impeachment.

BARB GARDNER, IOWA BUSINESS OWNER: I kind of still like him, but yet, I don't like what he says, I don't like his -- the way he presents himself.

MARQUEZ: It's voters like these that helped propel Donald Trump into the White House. Howard County is unique flipping from Obama in 2012 to Trump in 2016 by more than any other county in the country, a 41- point swing. What's it like to be a Democrat in Howard County, Iowa these days?

LAURA HUBKA, CHAIRWOMAN, HOWARD COUNTRY DEMOCRATIC PARTY: A lot of people hiding or not talking about it,

MARQUEZ: The chair of the Democratic Party in Howard County says impeachment complicates her job of convincing independence to vote Democratic.

HUBKA: If they actually bring something that's criminal that's worthy of impeachment, I can see people -- those independents going, OK, there really is something.

MARQUEZ: The county's GOP chair says, trade policy will move votes in Howard. Impeachment right now?

NEIL SHAFFER, CHAIRMAN, HOWARD COUNTRY REPUBLICAN PARTY: It all becomes a --

MARQUEZ: Background noise.

SHAFFER: A background noise.

MARQUEZ: Yes.

SHAFFER: And we've almost become -- come to expect it.

MARQUEZ: We spoke to a lot of voters here, Democrats, Independents, Republicans, and they all said much the same thing, that what the President's accused of maybe shady, it may be slimy, but they did not see it as an impeachable offense. Democrats in particular were concerned they are the first in the nation caucus coming up here in less than 100 days. And they are concerned that that inquiry and a possible trial will take all the attention from the candidates and the ideas that they want to get out there. Miguel Marquez, CNN, Cresco, Iowa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: A good time for a break. When we come back, the U.S. Defense Secretary talked exclusively to CNN about the strategy in Syria. Yes, apparently, there is one, and the backlash over the decision to pull U.S. troops out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:30:40]

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks for staying with us, everybody.

I'm John Vause with an update now on the top news this hour.

Brexit now on hold as E.U. leaders consider yet another delay. Boris Johnson had to pause to listen to the protests after his plans to fast-track it were fought over in parliament. But for the first time, the House of Commons did actually approve the terms of a withdrawal agreement.

A murder suspect freed from a Hong Kong prison plans to return to Taiwan and turn himself in. But the interesting part about this is that his case led to the controversial extradition bill that had sparked months of protests on the streets of Hong Kong.

He's accused of killing his girlfriend last year in Taiwan but Hong Kong authorities could not force him to go back to stand trial.

Russia and Turkey have reached a deal to remove Kurdish fighters from the Syrian border with Turkey. The Kurdish YPG will move 30 kilometers away from the border under this plan, and Russia is to carry out several patrols with Turkey and Syria to enforce the deal.

And CNN's Christiane Amanpour sat down for an exclusive interview with the U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper to discuss the U.S. pulling troops out of Syria, as well as the backlash that followed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: We see an army captain who's talked to the "New York Times" and basically said, I joined the army to prevent genocide, not to pave the way for it. We've even seen the head of the Senate Republicans, the Senate

Majority Mitch McConnell write a very, very pointed op-ed in which he said, "The combination of a U.S. pull back and the escalating Turkish- Kurdish hostilities is creating a strategic nightmare for our country. Even if the five-day cease-fire announced Thursday holds, if it does, events of the past week have set back the United States campaign against the Islamic state and other terrorists. Unless halted, our retreat," he calls it a retreat, "will invite the brutal Assad regime in Syria and his Iran backers to expand their influence. And we are ignoring Russia's efforts to leverage its increasing dominant position in Syria to amass power and influence throughout the Middle East and beyond."

As Secretary of Defense of the United States -- how do you respond to that?

MARK ESPER, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Look, I understand the sentiments of the soldiers on the ground who have fought side by side with the Kurds. The Kurds had been our good partners in the defeat of ISIS.

There's a certain bond that happens in combat. When you are with fellow soldiers of any country, as you said, I experienced it during my time here in the Gulf War, I understand that. But at the end of the day when you get back up to the 30,000 foot level, the strategic level -- we've got to ask ourselves, at the time that President Erdogan decided to cross that border very clearly, that he was going to make that move I had a responsibility to make sure that our soldiers weren't put in harm's way, trapped between a 15,000-man plus army and SDF forces from the south, and eventually Russians and Syrians.

So I (INAUDIBLE) with the recommendation of the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff -- we recommended that those troops be withdrawn. And eventually the rest of the force would be withdrawn.

I think the broader strategic context is this. Look, it's no surprise that President Trump said coming into office as he campaigned that he wanted to bring American soldiers, service members home as much as he can and to end the endless wars in his words.

And so this is part and parcel of that. And it should come as no surprise to anybody.

AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you a personal question? Well -- professional question.

ESPER: Sure.

AMANPOUR: Were you on the phone call that President Trump had with President Erdogan? Did you know what was being discussed between the two presidents in the hours before the Turks launched their offensive into Syria?

ESPER: Sure. And I listened in to the phone call, of course. But my experience with that -- AMANPOUR: So you knew what was being discussed?

ESPER: Yes, absolutely. But my experience goes back to when I first came into office in late July, so two months or so into it. Probably the one issue that dominated my time more than anything else was working with my counterpart, the defense minister of Turkey, trying to build this safe zone, the security mechanism by which we would do joint patrolling with the Turks to keep a buffer zone between Turkey and the SDF.

And we thought it was going well. We have established a joint operations center in southern Turkey. We were doing ground patrols and air patrols. We got the SDF to agree to back up a little bit.

And I guess at some point the Turks decided it's not moving fast enough. It's not comprehensive enough -- whatever the case may be. But we saw the pressure building despite our efforts and --

AMANPOUR: The pressure from the Turks?

[01:34:52]

ESPER: -- from the Turks. And it was just days before when President Erdogan called President Trump that the minister told me look we're going to be coming across. We'll give you a heads up. And when Erdogan spoke to President Trump, he confirmed that and notified us that that was his intent.

AMANPOUR: So Mitt Romney, as you know, the senator from Utah. "What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a bloodstain on the annals of American history. Was there no chance for diplomacy," he asked. "Are we so weak and inept diplomatically that Turkey forced the hand of the United States of America? Turkey," he said. And you've just said pretty much that that is exactly what happened.

ESPER: Well look, Turkey is a long-standing NATO ally. We're not going to go to war against a NATO ally and certainly not over across -- with regard to a border that we did not sign up to defend in the first place. We've got to go back to our primary mission -- defeat ISIS.

AMANPOUR: Right.

So you have just said that you're doing a good job. And most people thought you were doing a good job.

ESPER: Everybody except the Turks thought we were doing a good job.

AMANPOUR: Right. Bizarrely (ph) because you were keeping ISIS down and you were a buffer force there, correct?

ESPER: Right.

Well no, I mean in the context of the Turkish government did not feel we were doing --

AMANPOUR: I understand.

ESPER: -- a good enough or fast enough job with regard to filling the safe zone.

AMANPOUR: Right. Ok.

But strategically in terms of defeating ISIS that was a successful buffer zone that had taken, you know, a good five to six years?

ESPER: Again, that buffer zone is not related to the defeat of ISIS.

AMANPOUR: All right. Fine.

They were buffer forces, would you say?

ESPER: It was -- we're trying to build a safe zone between the Turks and the SDF. Ok.

AMANPOUR: That I understand.

But to keep down ISIS, you were doing quite a good job there?

ESPER: Yes. That's right.

AMANPOUR: Fine.

The President has said, and of course, he's within his right and the right of any President to want to end quote, "endless wars" and bring troops home. But you know again, much better than I do, that America is full of buffer troops in many parts of the world where wars have ended in order to prevent a reemergence of hostilities --

ESPER: Right.

AMANPOUR: -- whether it's between North and South Korea, whether it's in Europe and now with the (INAUDIBLE) Russia, whether it's elsewhere in the Middle East.

ESPER: And that's one of the challenges I face as Secretary of Defense trying to implement our new national defense strategy is how do I reposition our forces to deal with the threats of the coming decades which is China number one, and Russia number two.

As I look around the globe I see our forces tied down in multiple occasions. If you step back you can see American forces easily in 80, 90 countries around the world. You see, we have legal obligations to help defend dozens of countries and we will honor those.

But what I have to do is think about how do I reallocate, reposition my forces and in some case substitute them with other countries so that I can free them up to deal with China -- again our principle strategic competitor in the next few decades.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: The U.S. Defense Secretary there speaking with Christiane Amanpour.

We'll take a short break. When we come back, an alarming drop in the salmon population is threatening the food chain. So what's causing it. Is it too late to stop it? More details in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:39:47]

VAUSE: This year's fishing season in the U.S. Pacific Northwest has been canceled because of an alarming decline in stocks of salmon.

CNN's Bill Weir reports on how dams are contributing to this alarming shortage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As much as air or water, so much of life in the Pacific Northwest depends on salmon. Over 130 species rely on nature's original food delivery. But fewer salmon are surviving the heroic swim from open ocean to spawning streams hundreds of miles inland.

And that means trouble for two creatures that really love the king of fish -- killer whales and us. In your grandparents' day the Columbia Basin seemed to produce a never-ending supply and salmon the size of people. But those big June hog Chinooks are extinct now. And this year numbers were so low, the fall fishing season was canceled.

BRETT VANDEN HEUVEL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, COLUMBIA RIVERKEEPER: The estimates are about 17 million salmon would return to the Columbia every year. It was the greatest salmon fishery in the world. And now it is about a million.

WEIR: And most of those are hatchery fish with weaker genes and less fat than their wild cousins. So the southern resident killer whales that live on chinook are starving. There are only 73 of this kind of orca left on the planet. And after a grieving mom pushed her dead calf around Puget Sound for weeks last summer, it rekindled the decades old debate -- salmon versus dams.

What would you say to folks who say the best thing that could happen for these animals and this ecosystem is to take these dams down?

TIM DYKSTRA, FISH PROGRAM MANAGER, U.S. ARMY CORPS: I would say, for the Army Corps of Engineers, we are looking to do the right thing. We're looking to operate the dams that are here, while we are taking a closer look at what the future of these dams are in the region.

WEIR: To find their birth stream many chinook coming out of the Pacific must navigate at least eight dams -- four in the Columbia, four on the Lower Snake. These are the four that would likely come down first, but removing a dam takes an act of Congress and will meet stiff resistance from special interests like wheat farmers who need dams and locks to float their crop to market. And since Bonneville Dam alone can provide carbon free power to a city the size of Seattle, the debate divides lovers of wildlife on all sides.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we are trying to do our best to improve conditions through the migration channel through the river for the salmon, trying to make sure that power and fish can coexist here in the Columbia Basin.

WEIR: But 13 species of fish remain threatened or endangered even though the federal government has fed over 16 billion trying to make dammed rivers more fish friendly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes the salmon can cross the fish ladders but the river, the Columbia River is too hot. The reservoirs behind the dams have caused this hot water problem because they're stagnant, absorbing a lot of solar radiation --

WEIR: I see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- and then couple that with climate change and climate change is pushing that over the edge to make the river too warm for salmon to survive.

WEIR: And it is not just the rivers. Scientists are worried that the infamous blob of warm water off the Washington-Oregon coast is back.

NICK BOND, CLIMATOLOGIST: So, we are kind of wondering, wow is this happening again? And it is kind of alarming because it is so close on the heels of that past event.

WEIR: Dams have long been concrete symbols of human ingenuity. Now, its entire ecosystems in hot water. How much longer can they stand?

Bill Weir, CNN -- on the Columbia River.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause.

Please stay with us.

"WORLD SPORT" is next.

[01:43:40]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END