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Key Witnesses In Impeachment Probe Will Testify This Week; Witness: Ukraine Transcript Mistakenly Put On Classified Server; Warren, Biden, Sanders Tied For Second In CNN Iowa Poll; Pete Buttigieg Surges To First Place In Key State Of Iowa; Stone Becomes Sixth Trump Associate To Be Convicted; Schiff: We Will Send That Charlatan In The White House Back To The Golden Throne He Came From; Obama Warns Democratic Candidates: Don't Go Too Far Left; Trump Attacks Impeachment Witness Ahead Of Public Hearing. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 17, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:28]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone, and thank you so for joining me this Sunday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

All right, the start of a new week and potentially pivotal open testimony in the impeachment inquiry on Capitol Hill. Among those scheduled to appear, President Trump's Ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland. Previous testimony indicates he has firsthand accounts of President Trump's policy in Ukraine and how much of it may have been tied to pressuring the Ukrainian President into starting investigations into Joe Biden and his son.

We're also learning new details from just-released transcripts. A former official on the National Security Council testifying that Sondland told him that U.S. aid to Ukraine was conditional to the Ukrainian President, announcing the, "opening of investigations into the Bidens."

Republicans, meanwhile, blasting the process saying Democrats have wanted to impeach President Trump even before these revelations and that the proceedings are unfair. Today House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that is not the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) HOUSE SPEAKER: For the many things the President does that are completely out of the question that are not impeachable, and they're about the election. But when it comes to violating the Constitution of the United States as he undermines our national security, jeopardizes the integrity of our elections, and dishonors his own oath of office, that's about impeachment.

The President could come right before the committee and speak all the truth that he wants. He has every opportunity to present his case. But it's really a sad thing. I mean, what the President did was so much worse than even what Richard Nixon did, but at some point Richard Nixon cared about the country enough to recognize that this could not continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Here with me now, CNN's David Shortell.

So David, good to see you again. Several people testifying this week, you know, break it down for us who is expected.

DAVID SHORTELL, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: All right. That's right, Fred. Eight men and women expected to appear before the House Intelligence Committee this week, including a number of highly credentialed national security officials, meaning that this week could really shape up to be one of the most consequential of the Trump presidency.

You're looking at the eight men and women right now. You may recognize some of their names. That's because these officials have all testified individually behind closed doors to lawmakers, but this week is when the American public is going to be able to hear from them, themselves for the first time.

I want to focus in, Fred, on two of the most important witnesses who we're going to hear from this week. That's Ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, a close ally of the President, and Timothy Morrison, a former National Security Council official.

Sondland, you'll remember, is a wealthy businessman. He actually gave a million-dollar donation to Trump's inaugural committee and that later preceded him becoming ambassador to the European Union. Now, his testimony is not supposed to be a slam dunk for the Democrats.

That's because we are expecting Sondland to testify about a phone call he had with President Trump in which President Trump told him explicitly, I'm not looking for a quid pro quo with the Ukrainians, as in do not make the release of military aid contingent on an investigation into Joe and Hunter Biden.

But, Fred, democrats are likely going to zero in on some other conversations we've been learning that Sondland had, including one over the summer where he allegedly told colleagues that President Trump doesn't care about the Ukrainians and that he really only cares about an investigation into Joe Biden.

The other witness, Timothy Morrison, was, up until late last month, the top Russia expert at the White House. He is expected to kind of set the credentials up of Sondland. He can testify about conversations he had with Sondland in which the ambassador to the E.U. described that he was working at the behest of President Trump as he engaged with the Ukrainians about these political investigations.

WHITFIELD: And, you know, Tim Morrison was concerned about this secret server or the place where the documentation for the transcripts of the July 25th phone call would be placed. What were his concerns, or what more might he, you know, testify on that? SHORTELL: Right. Fred, that's actually something we just learned about yesterday for the first time, and it's new and important. And what we learned was the answer to a question that we've had for a few months now, which was why was this -- the July 25th phone call, why was a transcript of that -- and this is, remember, the phone call where President Trump asks Ukraine's leaders to do us a favor. Why was the transcript of that phone call put on the most highly classified server at the White House? It was a move that at the time concerned a lot of officials and they called it unusual.

[15:05:10]

Well, according to this testimony that was released by lawmakers yesterday that Morrison had previously given, that phone call's transcript was moved into the server as a mistake. Morrison testified and he's likely to repeat later this week that both he and another National Security Council official, John Eisenberg, felt that the call should be restricted in some capacity, but that the actual act of putting it on this highly classified server, well, that was a mistake, Fred.

WHITFIELD: David Shortell, thank you so much for that. We're going to follow up on that.

Now, with me now is Shawn Turner, the former Director of Communication for National Intelligence, and a CNN National Security Analyst.

Shawn, good to see you.

So, your reaction now to this transcript and the concern that Tim Morrison had about the transcript of the call being, you know, placed in this special server.

SHAWN TURNER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATION FOR U.S. NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Yes, Fred, well, you know, I looked at that transcript and read it thoroughly. You know, it really comes down to what Mr. Eisenberg's definition of mistake is.

Look, Fred, you know, there are a series of very deliberate steps that are necessary to move a transcript like this from an unclassified environment to a classified environment where special access programs exist. It's highly unlikely that the person who took those steps, took -- made a mistake that amounts to essentially misfiling the report. That's just really unlikely scenario.

Now, it is not plausible that --

WHITFIELD: That it was intentional. It's not plausible to you that it was a mistake in hindsight, or that someone thinks it was a mistake in hindsight. They knew what they were doing.

TURNER: Absolutely. You would have had to have know what you're doing, because there is -- not only are there a number of steps to take, but also you have to have particularly special access to do this and there's a record of who does this and when they do it. So that part of it could not have been a mistake. Now, Fred, it is plausible that Mr. Eisenberg may have said to someone that, you know, that these transcripts needed to be restricted and that he was not clear in his communication. But whether he was clear or not, we still have the question of why this particular transcript that we now know had no classified or sensitive information was being treated differently than other transcripts.

WHITFIELD: So, it was also testified by Morrison that he was concerned about the potential fallout that this whole process and change of policy would become partisan if it were leaked. And he testified, you know, about really feeling rather conflicted, if you will, on that and worried and feeling like something, while it may not have been illegal, he testified, he did feel like something was wrong.

How potentially damaging do you see this, you know, and that it's been revealed at least by way of the transcript? I mean, he would eventually potentially be called for an open testimony, but how potentially damaging is this?

TURNER: Yes. Absolutely, Fred. Look, I think that, you know, Mr. Morrison's motivations here in suggesting that it was -- this it was wrong are problematic because they are motivated by political concerns. But during my time in the previous administration, I can remember only two occasions where phone conversations between the President of the United States and other foreign leaders were moved to a more classified and restricted area, and it's because those discussions involved extremely sensitive operations that would have been compromised if that information had gone to the public. There were no other instances in which that happened.

So in this case Mr. Morrison, Mr. Eisenberg, you have to look at what their motivations were. In this case I'm very concern because their motivations had absolutely nothing to do with national security or sensitive intelligence sources or methods. It was simply because they felt and so there were some political -- potential political fallout as a result of this.

WHITFIELD: So, what was your -- help explain to people why recordings of the President of the United States or documentation -- can you hear me OK? Shawn?

It looks like he's lost audio from me about the very topic of recording or being able to understand conversations between the President. All right, we'll try to either reestablish with Shawn Turner or at least thanks for now.

All right. Coming up, Mayor Pete Buttigieg surging in Iowa. The latest CNN Des Moines register poll and the candidates who are neck and neck.

And, another Democrat taking a victory lap today. The newly reelected governor of Louisiana sends a message to President Trump.

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[15:13:16] WHITFIELD: For the second time this month, President Trump did not get the big win he expected in a deep red state. The Democratic governor of Louisiana has won Saturday's runoff election. Governor John Bel Edwards narrowly beat Republican Eddie Rispone in yesterday's runoff election to continue a second term.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOVERNOR JOHN BEL EDWARDS, (D) LOUISIANA: Our share of love for Louisiana is always more important than the partisan differences that sometimes divide us.

And for the President, God bless his heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Despite President Trump campaigning in Louisiana twice in the past two weeks, it didn't help Rispone win the race. The President also backed the losing Republican in the Kentucky gubernatorial race.

Meantime, Iowa now has a new Democratic frontrunner. According to a new CNN/Des Moines register poll, Mayor Pete Buttigieg now holds a clear lead in the hawk eye state with 25 percent of support in the Democratic field. That's a 16-point increase from September. In the meantime, Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders all virtually tied as they battle for second place.

Joining me right now is CNN Political Reporter, Arlette Saenz. Arlette, good to see you.

So, what's behind the mayor's sudden surge in the polls and how significant is this for him heading into Wednesday night's debate?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well, Fred, it's clear that the time and resources that Pete Buttigieg has poured into Iowa are paying off for him right now. When you take a look at those polls and compare that to where he was back in September, and he has gotten a huge boost over the past two months, a 16-point percent increase. And you look at Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden, they've dropped six or five points each. Bernie Sanders has had a bit of an uptake there.

[15:15:07]

But Pete Buttigieg has been pouring a lot of resources into the state. He has over 100 field offices there -- I'm sorry, over 22 -- over a hundred staffers on the ground there, 22 field offices, excuse me. But, last night Pete Buttigieg was asked to respond to this in California. Take a listen what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, that's extremely encouraging. You know we have -- obviously. We have felt a lot of momentum on the ground. Even now, we know that we're not as well known as some of my competitors. So, it's very encouraging and at the same time there is a long way to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now one more interesting point in that poll is that 30 percent of Democratic caucus goers have said they made up their mind, but two- thirds said they could still change their mind about who they're supporting. Pete Buttigieg and 13 of the other Democratic candidates will be here in Nevada, speaking later today. We'll see if he's able to get some more momentum building up at these polls. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Arlette Saenz, thank you so much.

All right. Still to come up, a presidential confidant convicted. Now Democrats and Republicans are responding to the Roger Stone verdict, next.

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[15:20:33]

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Another one of the President's associates is now a convicted criminal. Trump's long-time political adviser Roger Stone has been found guilty of witness tampering and lying to and obstructing Congress, and he potentially faces decades behind bars. Since the President took office, Roger Stone is now the sixth person in Trump's orbit to be convicted as part of the Russia investigation into the 2016 election.

Joining me right now, CNN Political Commentators Ana Navarro, a Republican Strategist, and Angela Rye, a former Executive Director for the Congressional Black Caucus, and Democratic Strategist Robert Zimmerman. Good to see all of you.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good to be with you.

ANGELA RYE, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right. So Ana, you first, you know, what happened to the President's edict that he would only be surrounded by the best people and now six of his associates have been convicted?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Birds of a feather flock together. Look, for way too long, he has been surrounded by people who tell him yes. And not only do they tell him yes, they do the things that he needs in order to cover up his acts.

Roger Stone is not only about Donald Trump, this guy has been, for decades, known as a dirty trickster, a mercenary who you hire to do the dirty work.

And I've got to tell you, you know the Sacred Heart nuns told me not to rejoice about other people's grief and distress, but I can't be happier that this guy actually got convicted --

WHITFIELD: Why is that? NAVARRO: -- on all counts. Because he has been incredibly misogynistic, he's been racist, he's been a jerk. He's attacked people like me, he's attacked Donna Brazile, he's attacked Don Lemon, he's attacked Roland Martin, he's attacked so many friends of mine in the vilest of forms. And guess what, Donna Brazile, Roland Martin, Don Lemon and Ana Navarro have in common, we're all people of color. He is a racist and misogynist who goes into intimidation attacks and, frankly, I hope he rots in jail and then in hell.

WHITFIELD: So what are your thoughts if the President were to pardon? He's been asked that. You know, not a real clarity on an answer, but it's a possibility. What would be your thoughts on that?

NAVARRO: Well, I suspect he's going to pardon -- I suspect he's going to pardon him. But I also suspect he's got to at least wait till the election. And the fact that he is, you know, listen, he can pardon him, but the entire world knows who this guy is. This guy is a convicted criminal now. Put that on your tombstone.

WHITFIELD: So Robert, this is going to be a pivotal week into the ongoing impeachment inquiry with, you know, aide (ph) to testify. And Adam Schiff, the Chair of the Intel Committee is leading this phase of the impeachment inquiry. He was in California this weekend, and he was met with cheers and applause when he was at, you know, this party endorsing, you know, convention. And he did not mince words in blasting President Trump in this manner. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D) CALIFORNIA: Two years ago I stood before you and I urged you resist, and you did. But we are more than resistance now. We are a majority now. We are a majority in one house, and we will become the majority in the another, and we will send that charlatan in the White House back to the golden throne he came from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And Robert, while it might not be, you know, unusual that Schiff would be, you know, endorsing other Democrats being at this convention, but his committee is in the midst of this inquiry, and he wasn't there in Washington in the midst of testimony, depositions taking place. So, you know, was it appropriate for him to be where he was? Was it even appropriate to, you know, call the President a charlatan and get, you know, I guess get the audience jazzed there about the potential demise, what he would hope the potential demise of the President would be?

ZIMMERMAN: Of course, it was. I mean this -- let's be clear --

WHITFIELD: Why is it appropriate, in your view?

ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely appropriate and fine. Let's be very clear, this impeachment inquiry is not about Adam Schiff, it's about Donald Trump, it's about the circle he surrounds himself and the strategy of bribing a foreign government, undermining our national security so that Donald Trump could get personal information about an opponent and try to get dirt on the opposition. Let's be very clear about why we have this impeachment investigation.

[15:25:04]

So I think it's very important not to be sidetracked about the claims from Republicans about Hunter Biden, about the issues, about Adam Schiff giving a speech pat at a convention where he's being renominated. It's -- we have a very clear specific agenda right now and that standing up for the constitution, standing up for our democracy and it's not going to be -- we're not going to be distracted from it.

WHITFIELD: So Angela, you know, did it -- did Schiff -- does he run the risk of looking too confident of gloating too much? When you heard, you know, the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi say this impeachment proceeding, this is a somber time for America and no one should coming across as celebrating this time.

RYE: Well, I don't know if he came across celebrating impeachment as much as he is celebrating what it means to be vindicated, right? I think many of us have been saying since Donald Trump's campaign began that he was problematic, and it just so happens to be that the rest of the country, the rest of the world is catching up. But Adam Schiff has been saying this for some time.

I understand the optic of him being at the party convention while he's in the middle of impeachment proceedings. But what I would say is his first constituency before he's chair of the -- permanent -- the select committee on Intelligence is his home base, and that is in California where he is an elected member of Congress. So he has an obligation to be there as well.

As far as what is appropriate, I feel like there is a sliding scale these days, and I think that it's time for people to call a charlatan a charlatan and also to address Donald Trump for what he is. He is a liar, he is a deceiver, he is a man who has benefited from the presidency, he has violated the Emoluments Clause, he has violated ethics rules. There are now upward of 3,000 conflicts of interest according to the Citizens for Responsible Ethics. There is -- we can just continue to go on and on.

So Adam Schiff, being -- it's being stated that Adam Schiff is gloating. It's really just vindication for walking in the truth and for people finally catching up.

ZIMMERMAN: And in fact, what we should be celebrating, Fred, is the fact that our system of justice is working. Roger Stone's convictions and all the other convictions, the Mueller investigation produced validate and demonstrate the importance of the great work of that commission.

In addition to which -- as you see the impeachment investigation come forward, it's Donald Trump's own appointees and our professional serve, our professional appointees in government who are in fact saving our democracy --

WHITFIELD: All right. ZIMMERMAN: -- by telling the truth and holding this President accountable for the crimes and the corruption of this government.

WHITFIELD: And we're going to talk more about what's ahead in the impeachment --

NAVARRO: But, look, the truth is that Adam Schiff is -- the Adam Schiff is under great scrutiny right now and I think he has got to hold himself up to the highest of bars and really try not to, for optics purposes, and for real purposes, come across as looking political.

I think the way he has conducted the hearings has been incredibly professional and that's the way he also needs to behave outside of the hearing room.

WHITFIELD: All right. Everyone stay put. We're not finished yet.

ZIMMERMAN: OK.

WHITFIELD: We're going to take a short break for now. Thank you so much to all.

Coming up, former President Obama has a warning for fellow Democrats ahead of the next round of debates.

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[15:32:20]

WHITFIELD: All right, a major shift in the 2020 Democratic presidential field. Pete Buttigieg is now sitting comfortably at the top in Iowa. A new CNN/Des Moines Register/Mediacom poll shows the South Bend mayor with a significant lead in the first in the nation caucus state with 25 percent support. Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders are all virtually tied for second place.

My panelists back with me, Angela, Ana, hello, and Robert. There they are.

OK. Angela, you first. You know, this is a six-point jump from where Buttigieg was in September. His campaign, you know, has heavily invested in Iowa and it appears to be paying off. How did he help make this happen?

RYE: Well, I think that there are some kind of candidates who are still believing in the old school which is you go door to door and person to person, and it's clear that he is doing a masterful job at connecting with people on the ground. A shameless plug, I do have a podcast coming with Pete Buttigieg soon to be announced. And I'll ask him.

You know, I think that so much of this has to do with making sure that you are not focused on what the headlines say. That you're not even focused too long on what you did on the last debate stage. Of course, we know there is another debate coming up this Wednesday. It is super, super important that candidates understand what the issues are on the ground in each of the communities in which you have to primary first. The caucuses are first, as we know. So I think it's important for him in the momentum that he's building that he starts to do well now.

Of course, there are questions out about whether or not he could be surging too soon. We know it's only November, but -- and there's a lot of time to, you know, there is still a lot of time to play ball, but I think that we have to appreciate progress for where it is and he certainly is surging in Iowa.

WHITFIELD: All right. So CNN's Kyung Lah caught up with him after these poll numbers came out and asked him about how he feels about it. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTTIGIEG: Well, that's extremely encouraging. You know we have -- obviously. We have felt a lot of momentum on the ground. Even now we know we're not as well known as some of my competitors. So, it's very encouraging, and at the same time there's a long way to go.

WHITFIELD: All right. So, Robert, how should he play this?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, you know, I have to tell you, I'm old school and the way he has played this so far is by doing that on-the-record bus tour in the state, showing up and connecting one on one. And that works.

It's so pivotal in these early contests like Iowa and New Hampshire. And by the way, shameless endorsement, I love Angela's podcast, it's a must listen to, it's just terrific.

But right now --

WHITFIELD: You got fans.

ZIMMERMAN: -- what's important is that now that Mayor Pete Buttigieg has emerged in this position, it's very important not to sit on the lead. He's got to double down because you're going to see him at the center of a lot of attention --

[15:35:09]

WHITFIELD: So don't get too comfortable.

ZIMMERMAN: That's right. There's going to be a lot of attention on the upcoming debate on Wednesday. He's now going to get to focus the way Elizabeth Warren got it in the last debate. And so he's got to not over react to the criticism and keep his cool and stay on the ground with his message. And he's capable of that. He gets it.

One thing that's most interesting to watch in Iowa, which has historically a very lefties centrist caucus voter is that 63 percent are looking for the most electable Democrat against Donald Trump, and that seems to be an overarching issue in all the polling data I've seen. WHITFIELD: Oh, and maybe that's a message. There was a little in sync with former President Obama who spoke on Friday --

ZIMMERMAN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: -- and issued a stern warning to the more progressive Democrats running for president. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They like seeing things improved, but the average American doesn't think that we have to completely tear down the system and remake it. And I think it's important for us not to lose sight of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So, Ana, you know, this new poll, you know, does that underscore, you know what, President Obama was saying, that, you know, voters, you know, want perhaps a moderate like Buttigieg?

NAVARRO: You know, I am -- I was struck when I heard those comments from President Obama. Man, you know, we've kind of gotten old, right? I mean, I remember I'm so old.

(Crosstalk)

ZIMMERMAN: Speak for yourself.

WHITFIELD: Speak for yourself, girlfriend. What do you mean?

NAVARRO: -- when he was the idealist. When he was the guy go -- he was the guy fighting the establishment.

Remember in 2008, he was a progressive, inspirational leader running against the establishment candidate Hillary Clinton who he beat. And so it's, you know, there's something that I think a little funny about him saying this, but think I also there's also some truth to it.

And, you know, I've gone to a few events of Pete Buttigieg down here early events that friends of mine have hosted, and I was struck by his authenticity. He is genuinely Midwestern nice. He is not putting on an act. I was struck by his pragmatism. He's also not as cold. He's not trying to exclude anybody. He's trying to be a big tent.

There is something very soothing and comforting about Pete Buttigieg. Look, I knew people -- I knew this guy was on to something when people actually started to know how to pronounce his name. You know now we got to learn --

WHITFIELD: It took some practice for everybody.

NAVARRO: -- how to spell it.

And another thing, listen, hats off to Liz Smith, his communications director, because another thing that they've done that some other campaigns have not is they're not playing hard to get with the press and with people. They're not being inaccessible.

WHITFIELD: Being very available. Yes.

NAVARRO: It used to be the frontrunners played hard to get.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

NAVARRO: These people are incredibly open. They've got the press in the bus very much --

WHITFIELD: Interesting.

NAVARRO: -- you know, very much kind of like what McCain did with his straight talk express. And I think it's working because he's an unknown, he was an unknown, and people have got, you know, have gotten to know him because of that, because of --

WHITFIELD: Yes.

NAVARRO: -- his genuineness and his access --

WHITFIELD: So that message of inclusion, Angela, I mean, that is, you know, the nucleus of what President Obama was saying, inclusion, make sure, you know, the tent is wide, the net is cast wide as well. But that's a very similar message that came from Deval Patrick who has been, you know, questioned including today about why now?

He said, you know, the time wasn't right a year ago, but now he sees because of the polarization, it is time to come up with, you know, a plan that appeals to everybody, and, you know, he attributed his own, you know, success as Massachusetts governor for being one of inclusion. Is that the message now that is going to most resonate whether you're a newcomer or someone who has been in the race for a while?

RYE: Well, I don't think that it's one that's not already there. And, you know, being a black woman in this country, of course I would love to see another black president. I hate to say this, I don't see the pathway for Deval Patrick. I might end up eating crow on this, but we -- I remember in 2012 when Mitt Romney was running, and the fact he worked at Bain Capital was a problematic for even Republicans. So now we have this electorate and I think it's fantastic in a Democratic Party that is becoming increasingly more progressive.

And I think I would have to disagree with President Obama on tearing it down or rebuilding it. I think there is a part of our foundation that's rotten and has to be thrown out. It's already broken. It's already torn down. It is what it is. And we're not the ones tearing it down it's the dude in the White House right now that's doing that, right?

And so my question for Deval Patrick is, where do you see yourself differentiating in a way that says, I'm not going to be Republican- like. That's not going to work. How can you show that you're more progressive or at least more thoughtful about progressive values than you were in Massachusetts? I know it sounds crazy to talking about Massachusetts as some conservative hotbed, it's not. But I do think that this is a party that is increasingly more progressive and valuing concepts that used to be lefty.

[15:40:10]

When we talk about single payer option health care during the ACA, people laugh at that. Now Medicare for all is something that's considered.

WHITFIELD: All right. So --

RYE: But Barack Obama oppose the reparation.

WHITFIELD: So, super, super quick. Super quick.

RYE: This is my last point.

WHITFIELD: Oh, right.

RYE: Barack Obama oppose reparations.

RYE: And now that's a conversation that every candidate has to answer for.

WHITFIELD: OK. I love it.

RYE: This is an op-ed. I'm quiet, but this is sticky.

WHITFIELD: No, I love it. It's just we're up against a break and I've got people in my ear here.

RYE: I got you.

WHITFIELD: So, Robert, real quick. Latecomers, too late for Bloomberg and a Deval Patrick. You get the last word real fast.

ZIMMERMAN: It's not just it is too late, it's they have no rational -- did not shown a rationale --

WHITFIELD: OK.

ZIMMERMAN: -- for their candidacy, and that's what critical. If you look at Buttigieg, if you look at Warren, Sanders and Biden, they've created a national movement for their campaign.

WHITFIELD: OK.

ZIMMERMAN: Amy Klobuchar is trying to do it.

The biggest point simply is this going forward. This is not -- Donald Trump has changed the dynamic in American politics. Our Constitution is under assault, our democracy is under attack, and that's why you see Democrats certainly fighting for a progressive agenda, but also most importantly keeping focus on what's at stake in this election, and that's defeating Donald Trump and his inner circle. Basically the only people left on his team are on parole.

WHITFIELD: All right.

ZIMMERMAN: So we got to stand up to the corruption that represents.

WHITFIELD: All right. I love you all. Thank you so much. Beautiful words, beautiful people.

ZIMMERMAN: Thank you. Great to be with you.

WHITFIELD: Fantastic points of view. Robert Zimmerman, Ana Navarro, Angela Rye, thanks to all of you.

RYE: Thank you.

NAVARRO: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:26]

WHITFIELD: All right. There's breaking news. President Trump is once again attacking a witness in the impeachment inquiry. Trump now lashing out at an aide to Vice President Mike Pence. This comes just days after his Twitter, the President's Twitter offensive during former Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch's testimony.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House for us. So, the President's latest target, Jennifer Williams. Why?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Fredricka, the answer to that is unclear. We don't know why exactly the President is going after this employee. But it does fit a pattern that we have seen, Fredricka, of the President attacking members of his own administration who have gone forward to testify in this impeachment inquiry, branding them without any evidence as never Trumpers.

Let's read the tweet first from the President. He says, "Tell Jennifer Williams, whoever that is, to read both transcripts of the presidential calls and see the just released statement from Ukraine. Then she should meet with the other never Trumpers, who I don't know and mostly never even heard of, and work out a better presidential attack."

The President has also referred to Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman, a National Security Council official, as well as the diplomat in Ukrain, Bill Taylor, both of them, without evidence, again, as never Trumpers.

And this is really quite startling that the President wants again choosing to go after a member of his own administration. What is perhaps even more startling is the response that I just got from the Vice President office. Vice President Pence's assistant Katie Waldman, I asked her to comment on the President's attacks on an adviser to the Vice President, her response is, Jennifer is a State Department employee. An effort to distance herself there.

Now, make no mistake, Fredricka, Jennifer Williams is a career Foreign Service officer. She is employed by the State Department but she is detailed to the Vice President's office like so many other foreign policy advisers at the White House or in the Vice President's office. That makes her an adviser to the Vice President.

And so far the response from Mike Pence's staff there, as you can see, is distancing, saying that she's simply a State Department employee. Fred?

WHITFIELD: Wow, that's fascinating. All right, Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much from the White House.

All right. Up next, a former federal prosecutor weighs in on this latest turn.

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[15:51:27]

WHITFIELD: President Trump is once again attacking a witness in the impeachment inquiry. He is now lashing out at an aide to the Vice President Mike Pence tweeting, ""Tell Jennifer Williams, whoever that is, to read both transcripts of the presidential calls and see the just released statement from Ukraine. Then she should meet with the other never Trumpers, who I don't know and mostly never even heard of, and work out a better presidential attack."

She is a long time Foreign Service officer working for the State Department. Jennifer Williams has been detailed to the Vice President.

So with me now is Shan Wu, a former federal prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst.

And Shan, how was this kind of tweet directed at her? She is now testifying in the impeachment inquiry. How is this any different than the tweet in real time while the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine was testifying last week?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's very similar, Fred. And I was thinking about the best way to analogize this. And you know, it's not a criminal or a civil trial that's going on.

But we might think about it from the point of view of what if President Trump swaggered into a courtroom during someone's testimony right after they testified and announced to the courtroom these same types of words. In that setting we would say, oh, that seems pretty obviously -- it's witness intimidation. He was trying to tamper with their testimony.

The differences were in the political arena of impeachment. And so Trump's people and him are arguing, well this is different. It's like him swaggering into Congress and making a speech. So that's where the fuzzy area is. But overall, it's obvious to anybody with common sense that he's trying to comment on her, he's trying to get that message to her. So I think overall in the impeachment evidence, it's going to be hurtful to Trump if they made this kind of mistake.

WHITFIELD: OK. Well, let's talk about what is expected this wee with the upcoming testimony. We're expecting to hear new public testimony from some of the key players in the case. And among them, President Trump Ambassador to the E.U. or I should say the U.S. Ambassador to the E.U., not necessarily the President.

But anyway, Gordon Sondland, he has firsthand accounts of the President's policy in Ukraine and, you know, how Ukraine may have been pressured along the way. And of this phone call that apparently Sondland was on where it was overheard by another State Department official who said he heard the President ask about the investigations, has it gotten started into the Bidens?

So it seems like a lot is on the line for the U.S. ambassador. As well as for President Trump. What do you expect from his testimony when he's already had to clarify a bit?

WU: Well, I think the first thing we have to ask is will we actually hear from him because if I were his attorney, I'd be telling him to just take the Fifth Amendment. He's not once or twice --

WHITFIELD: Doesn't that make it worse?

WU: Yes. It seems like it's making it worse, well that would make it worst for the President absolutely, but it would keep him out of legal jeopardy. You know not once but twice has he failed to disclose this obviously really important conversation where the President is directly referencing the investigation. The Republicans would no longer be able to talk about this as not direct as right out of the President's mouth.

And then Sondland very helpfully added to that by telling the aide who overheard it that the President's only concern with "big stuff" and big stuff Sondland explained are things that help him personally and to look to Giuliani, the President's personal attorney. So these are extremely problematic statements for the President and they're also, legally, problematic for Sondland because he hasn't told anybody before even though twice he's been under oath.

[15:55:09]

WHITFIELD: Shan Wu, we'll leave it there for now. Thank you so much.

WU: Thanks. Good to see you, Fred.

WHITFIELD: You as well.

"Declassified: Untold Stories of American Spies" is back tonight with an all new episode. And here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an eBay for cyber crime. The scale, the breadth it depth, the speed at which it moved just completely wiped out any type of case that you would have in the physical world of traditional investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the things you could buy were stolen identity document, stolen credit card information, health care card, a driver's license, maybe a passport. Another item was the FULLZ, F-U- L-L-Z, which are full wallet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where they refer to as full info, where -- not only did you have the card number, but has everything about the victim's identity, where they live, their social security number.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But it wasn't just a one stop shop (INAUDIBLE). There were tutorials for instance about what countries to go to that don't have extradition treaties. How to hack with anonymity.

What was shocking to me is the criminals had no shame in posting about their criminal activity fairly openly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: It's an all new episode of "Declassified: Untold Stories of American Spies" and that airs tonight 11:00 Eastern in Pacific right here on CNN.

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WHITFIELD: Hello again, everyone and thank you so much for being with me this Sunday.