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Crucial Week as Eight Witnesses Gear Up to Testify in Public; Trump Attacks Another Witness Ahead of Key Week of Testimony; Crucial Week as Eight Witnesses Gear Up to Testify in Public; New Testimony Raises Stakes for Ambassador Sondland's Hearing; Hong Kong Police and Protesters Clash in University Standoff. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired November 18, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:31]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow.

A crucial week in the impeachment investigation as key witnesses gear up to publicly testify on Capitol Hill. And the most anticipated, U.S. ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland. Testimony from U.S. diplomats raising the stakes for what he will say and describe the conversation that he apparently had with the president on July 26th about investigations into the Bidens.

Also, "The Wall Street Journal" reporting this morning there are a trail of e-mails where Sondland kept acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and Energy Secretary Rick Perry updated on the effort to start those investigations.

SCIUTTO: Ahead of this pivotal week, the president is on the attack, once again taking aim at yet another witness, Pence aide and career foreign service officer, Jennifer Williams, who is set to testify under oath tomorrow. The president is calling her a never Trumper. There is no basis for that. Williams was on that now infamous July 25th call between Presidents Trump and Zelensky. She says she found the call, quote, "unusual and inappropriate." The vice president's office declined to defend Williams, calling her a State Department employee.

There's a lot of throwing under the bus going on, as Lauren Fox joins us from Capitol Hill.

It's a big week particularly because you're going to have firsthand witnesses, top of the pack, Gordon Sondland.

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. And it's a huge week really, Jim, on Capitol Hill as Democrats and Republicans hear from eight witnesses this week, including Tim Morrison. He's the former NSC official who, of course, came to understand, according to closed-door deposition transcripts, that Gordon Sondland was speaking directly with President Donald Trump about pushing the Ukrainians to investigate the president's political rivals.

According to Morrison's deposition, he told congressional investigators that the president and Sondland spoke five times between July 25th, the date of that call between Trump and Zelensky, and September 11th when that nearly $400 million in U.S. military aid was finally released. But everything of course building to Wednesday where he will hear from E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland.

Expect Republicans and Democrats to have very tight questions for him, especially Democrats, who are going to be pushing him on what exactly he was telling the president, what were the conversations exactly like. A huge week moving forward. We'll also hear from Jennifer Williams, an NSC aide to Mike Pence, the vice president, Of course she was also on that July 25th phone call and said she had concerns about the call and she said it seemed more political than diplomatic in nature -- Jim and Poppy.

HARLOW: Lauren, before you go, you have two key depositions happening behind closed doors. They happened this weekend. What do you think the most important thing is that we've learned from them?

FOX: Well, I think David Holmes' testimony on Friday, his opening statement, which CNN obtained a copy of, was very crucial. Obviously he overheard the phone call between President Trump and Gordon Sondland, the E.U. ambassador. He said the phone call was so loud that Sondland was actually having to pull the phone away from his ear so he had a very good chance to understand what the president was asking him about, and he was asking specifically about investigations.

So Holmes is, of course, a key witness in all of this, but expect that, you know, when he asked Gordon Sondland, what did the president actually think about Ukraine, what he was told is the president cared more about, quote, "the big stuff," meaning the investigations into his political rivals, than he did about the U.S.-Ukrainian relationship. Obviously very important testimony that happened behind closed doors -- Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, thanks very much.

Kaitlan Collins of course covers the White House, joins us now.

The president is tweeting now, won't read the whole thing here, but he does raise the possibility of testifying before this. Is that a credible claim?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, what that tweet reminds me of, the president saying, you know, Nancy Pelosi has called on me to testify, I'm going to strongly consider it. He also said he was strongly considering sitting down with the special counsel, Robert Mueller.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Exactly what I thought.

COLLINS: It's something he never did against the advice of his attorneys, so the idea that this is likely does not seem to have gained traction at the White House right now. So I wouldn't expect it, given the fact that the chief defense from the White House has been that none of these top aides for the president, Mulvaney, Bolton, people that Lauren was just referencing have to go before them. So the idea the president would is incredibly unlikely.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COLLINS: If that changes, we'll let you all know but we have not heard any indication of that.

HARLOW: Yes. Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Fair.

HARLOW: As we look at what happened this weekend, Jennifer Williams, completely not backed up, an aide to the vice president, completely not supported by the vice president's office.

[09:05:12]

I think their statement just said like she's an employee of the State Department.

COLLINS: She's a State Department employee, which is raising more questions because that's run by Secretary Pompeo, who is still a Trump picked person and of course in his cabinet. It's interesting seeing the vice president's office toe the line here because Jennifer Williams is someone who's really well liked actually, as we were reporting out who she was, what role she played in this, her colleagues heaped a lot of praise on her.

However, I think they anticipated that the president could grow angry over something she testified about given that she was on that call and on the vice president's trip because they've been distancing themselves by saying she's a State Department employee who's just detailed to our office. Where they run into issue with that defense is that they play a pretty big role in picking which detail leaves and come into the office and his national security adviser Keith Kellogg is one of the chief people who plays a role in picking those people.

SCIUTTO: That's a good point.

HARLOW: Good point.

SCIUTTO: Listen. No one walks in that building without that approval. The "Wall Street Journal" reporting this weekend that there are e-mails that show that Gordon Sondland, of course, the ambassador to the E.U. was keeping high-level Trump administration officials alert and updated on investigations of the Bidens. So I mean, what that does, does it not, is it shows that, you know, this stuff was not happening kind of out there. There was not a freelancing operation.

COLLINS: Sondland's testimony just became a lot more critical with this because one of the first questions is going to be, what did the president say to you. And so far a lot of people have not been able to talk about what the president said to them directly. He's going to be someone who can offer that insight, but also the fact that he has such close ties to the top advisors to the president, the energy secretary and the chief of staff.

HARLOW: Who are both defying subpoenas to appear. But look, the fact that these e-mails got to "The Wall Street Journal" means someone wants them out there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COLLINS: So it's going to raise a lot of questions. Not only about that, but also the timeline because these e-mails were sent weeks before that July phone call.

HARLOW: Yes.

COLLINS: Their defense so far has been that the Ukrainians didn't know about the aid being stalled at that point. So it's clear from these e-mails or from his testimony that these Ukrainian -- top Ukrainian aides knew about that.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COLLINS: In early July, it's going to change the timeline a lot for Republicans and the White House.

HARLOW: That's great point.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Thanks, Kaitlan.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

HARLOW: We appreciate it very, very much.

Joining us to discuss, Kelly Magsamen, she served on the NSC under President Obama and President George W. Bush. Michael Gearhart is also here, our CNN legal analyst and impeachment expert.

Good morning to both of you.

Michael, let me just begin with you and this week ahead. You've got aides' public testimonies scheduled. The most at least in focus right now is Wednesday when we will hear from Ambassador Sondland. Democrats need him, right, because they need someone that had a direct line to the president who says yes, he called for an investigation directly to me. Right? In exchange for aid. But is he credible at this point? Yes, go ahead.

MICHAEL GERHARDT, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's a really good question whether he's credible or not. His testimony up to now has been somewhat inconsistent, and he is going to be pressed hard to establish his credibility. But you're exactly right that it's a crucial testimony because as recall from Watergate, one of the critical questions were used -- Howard Baker asked back then was, what did the president know, when did he know it?

As we have more witnesses testify, we're going to get more information about what the president knew or to what extent he was involved in this. And as you also pointed out, there seems to have been a systemic effort at the highest levels of this government to investigate the Bidens in an inappropriate and unconstitutional way. There was a proper way to do it through the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. There's an improper way to do it and it's the improper way we're investigating.

SCIUTTO: Kelly, as the hearsay argument has fallen apart here as firsthand witnesses and really, you know, a web of officials who were concerned by this alternate track foreign policy with seeming political benefit there, some Republicans are now moving from that argument to the it didn't work argument.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: In effect that this was ineffective extortion because the aid under congressional pressure was eventually delivered. In your view does that matter?

KELLY MAGSAMEN, SERVED IN NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL UNDER OBAMA AND GEORGE W. BUSH: No, I don't think it matters. I mean, I think that the Ukrainians certainly knew that they were under a significant pressure to deliver on this investigation. Whether it was to achieve a White House meeting with the president of the United States or to get the security assistance I think the fact pattern has been pretty well-established.

And I think the fact that, you know, Ambassador Sondland was essentially quarterbacking for the president of the United States this pressure campaign via Rudy Giuliani and himself is already evidence that the Ukrainians certainly knew what was on the line with respect to the assistance.

HARLOW: Michael, is there any way -- I know it's not a legal question because impeachment is a political process. But is there any way that the White House can be or Sondland can be compelled, forced to hand over these e-mails that "The Wall Street Journal" has, alleging this, you know, communication between Sondland, Mulvaney and Perry?

[09:10:06]

GERHARDT: Absolutely. The House can issue a subpoena and actually has issued a subpoena on a number of things.

HARLOW: But they haven't gotten anything. They haven't gotten anything from State.

GERHARDT: Well, that's correct. But a subpoena is a lawful order. The United States Supreme Court in very famous case unanimously said Richard Nixon had to comply with a judicial subpoena to turn over the information that would help the defendants in that -- that were involved with the Watergate break-in. It's the same thing here. We're trying to get people on the -- who

work in the administration to comply with the law, to produce documents. When they don't produce those documents or they don't come to testify they're defying law and may well be setting out the basis for another impeachment article against the president.

SCIUTTO: Kelly, talk if you can about how significant this week is, because you really only have two weeks of public testimony at the end of the day based on the timeline. That could change because, who knows, a court could rule John Bolton could come out of the woodwork. But under the current timeline, this is the public testimony prior to a vote and prior to a Senate trial that if people's opinion is going to change it's going to happen now.

So how crucial is this week when you bring in folks like a Sondland who were directly involved and are a conduit to the president?

MAGSAMEN: I think it's incredibly important. And of course, you know, tomorrow we'll hear testimony from Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and Jennifer Williams who of course were actually on the phone call with the president of the United States and the Ukrainian president. And, you know, these are career civil servants, they're active duty military. I think this is an important set of testimony to hear from people who were directly involved in the White House.

I also think the Sondland testimony is essential for all the reasons you've already stated. I mean it's essentially -- his testimony will be able to elaborate how active and directly engaged the president of the United States was in trying to get these investigations started. And so I think that the -- that they're getting closer to the heart of the issue, which is the president of the United States and his conduct.

SCIUTTO: Kelly, Michael, of course we're going to be bringing this week to everyone so they can make their own judgment.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Thanks very much to both of you.

Mayor Pete surges. Buttigieg takes the lead in a new Iowa poll. Is it his moderate message that is winning over voters there?

HARLOW: Also an unannounced visit to the hospital raises serious questions about the president's health. The White House says he is as healthy as can be. Are we getting the whole story?

And a gunman opened fire on a group of people watching football in Fresno, California. At least 10 people were shot. Four are dead this morning. We have the latest developments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: We're gearing up for another huge week of public hearings on Capitol Hill. Eight current and former officials set to testify under oath in front of the House Intelligence Committee, including the U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland, who has already admitted that he made clear to the Ukrainians they would not get any military aid or a key meeting with the White House, makes a big difference for these countries, unless they launched an investigation of the Bidens.

Democratic Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney of New York joins me now, he sits on the Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): You bet.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you, you've been in the room for this testimony. Is there something that you heard in there that we haven't seen out here that is material to this investigation? I don't want you to compromise any intelligence material, but in terms of making the argument that this was bribery as Democrats are now calling it?

MALONEY: Well, look, I mean let's be real clear. We are going to have direct evidence this week added to what's already been made public. That the president of the United States used taxpayer-funded military assistance to pressure a foreign leader to help him in his re-election campaign. That is soliciting a bribe, and that is an impeachable offense listed in the constitution.

The witnesses this week, Sondland, is the guy who carried out the quid pro quo, and you're going to hear him testify to that, and you're also going to hear other witnesses testify to those actions. Morrison witnessed the conversation he had with the president, Taylor confirms it, and of course, David Holmes is the latest witness who has important information about what Sondland was doing.

SCIUTTO: The Republicans' argument as you well know has evolved, you might say, over time. And some are now saying that well, OK, but the aid did make its way to Ukraine in the end, of course, under congressional pressure. Therefore, there was no bribery because the quid pro quo didn't happen. Is that a substantive defense in your view?

MALONEY: No, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to give the president credit for getting caught. I mean, after all, the aid was released only after the whistleblower came forward, three congressional committees started investigations, and, of course, the solicitation of the bribe is what occurred.

And at the president's instruction, Gordon Sondland who will testify this week said directly to the Ukrainians, you either get us a statement, specifically negotiated with Giuliani calling for an investigation about the Bidens or there will be no military assistance.

[09:20:00]

That's a quid pro quo which is Latin for bribery. SCIUTTO: As you know, Republicans have requested their own list of

witnesses to the hearing. We'll put it up on the screen here. And you have said that you'd be open to calling some of these witnesses as well. As we look at this list, tell us who on this list in particular would you be open to hearing from?

You have Kurt Volker, you have Jennifer Williams -- actually, sorry, we don't have the right list on the screen, apologies. This is the list of public hearings this week --

MALONEY: Well, I can do it for you.

SCIUTTO: Here we go, this is the GOP witness list, just for viewers who don't know, Hunter Biden, Tim Morrison, Nellie Ohr of course, she was a favorite target of the right-wing media. Who on this list would you be willing to hear from?

MALONEY: Well, we've already noticed three of the eight names on that list, 40 percent ain't too bad for the minority when they're requesting witnesses. And of course, the ones we've ruled out are the whistleblower which is, of course, only an effort to further, you know, the president's goal of retaliating against the whistleblower. The whistleblower is protected by law in terms of being outed.

And, of course, Hunter Biden is irrelevant to what the president did. Hunter Biden has no knowledge of the president's actions here. That's an effort to change the subject. But if you look at Tim Morrison or Ambassador Volker, those are witnesses the Republicans want to call, they're going to be here testifying under oath.

SCIUTTO: You're aware as well as I am, that impeachment is a political process, and that the political support matters in an impeachment. And what we're seeing is that support for impeachment has settled around Trump's approval-disapproval rating to some degree. And interestingly, we noted because CNN has a new poll in Iowa, specifically that has shown and we'll put this up on the screen.

GOP approval for Trump has actually risen by a few percentage points, but it hasn't fallen since the start of the impeachment inquiry. Does the process getting more not less partisan weaken your case to the American people?

MALONEY: Well first, one big point. I mean, the founders didn't write into the constitution, you know, treason, bribery, other high crimes and misdemeanors as long as it polls well in swing states. I mean, what are we talking about? I mean, the fact is, there's an "ABC News" poll out this morning that shows 70 percent of Americans believe the president did something wrong.

And the majority of Americans in every national poll I've seen, including "Fox News" says the American people support the impeachment inquiry. Look, my district voted for the president. It gives me no pleasure to go before you and my constituents and say, the president abused his power. He abused his office. He solicit a bribe by using taxpayer-funded military assistance to try to rig the next election. That's a sad day in America, but it's the truth. And we need to hold the president accountable.

SCIUTTO: Final question on another topic, something that you and I have spent a fair amount of time on, that is China and Hong Kong. We're watching CNN and where people on the ground there in the midst of it -- the protests, pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong getting increasingly violent, concerns about a violent police crack-down now, the use of live ammunition which has already been used in a couple of instances.

How concerned are you that China will use violence here, and are you disappointed that the Trump administration has not been more clear in its public statements that it won't stand for that?

MALONEY: Well, I'm deeply concerned about that. I was in the region recently on a visit to Taiwan. I actually had my visa denied by the mainland Chinese government in an unprecedented act to try to bully a member of Congress, to try to influence me to not go to Taiwan. This is the kind of over-the-top aggressive action that has become the hallmark of President Xi's regime in China.

And of course, Hong Kong and Taiwan co-exist with the situation with the Uyghurs where more than a million Uyghur Muslims --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MALONEY: Are being detained in concentration camps in the west. We need to stand with --

SCIUTTO: The same story, yes --

MALONEY: The protesters in Hong Kong.

SCIUTTO: Do you believe the Trump administration has made it clear to President Xi and to Beijing that the U.S. will not stand for a violent crack-down on those protesters?

MALONEY: They need to be crystal clear. I give President Trump credit for toughening our stance across the board with China, but if they have been silent on Hong Kong. And I think that, that is very dangerous because President Xi needs to get the message.

And let's remember what's happening. Now, Hong Kong is returning to Chinese control, but on a --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MALONEY: Timeline that the Chinese are unhappy with, and they have been attempting to break that deal and to exercise control before they have a right to. And so the Hong Kong protesters are very much only asking that the Chinese keep their word. And we need to stand with those protesters because China is supposed to be moving towards an open rule-based economy, not towards a greater authoritarian system, which unfortunately is what we're seeing.

[09:25:00] SCIUTTO: That's right, guarantees to one country, two systems to 2047. Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney, thanks so much for joining the program.

MALONEY: My pleasure.

POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: All right, the president is calling it phase one of his yearly physical, but his unannounced visit to Walter Reed this weekend is raising some important questions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The White House is actively trying to downplay President Trump's unannounced visit to Walter Reed Medical Center this weekend. The president stopped in to, quote, "a quick exam and labs on Saturday".

END