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Iowa Voters Weigh in on Tonight's Democratic Debate; Sen. Cory Booker (D-NJ), Mayor Pete Buttigieg (D-South Bend, IN), and Sen. Kamala Harris (D-CA) Are Interviewed about Debate Performances; Sondland: 'Everyone Was in the Loop' on Ukraine Pressure. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired November 21, 2019 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Midnight here in New York and in Atlanta, where the Democratic presidential candidates did verbal battle tonight. Ten candidates, the backdrop to it all, a day of impeachment testimony that puts President Trump squarely at the center of the worst allegations against him.
I want to go back to Dana Bash, who is with Mayor Pete Buttigieg.
Dana?
DANA BASH, CNN SR. U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Anderson.
And we talked a little bit about the fact that it didn't really get hot on you until the end of the debate and there was a very crackling moment between you and Senator Klobuchar on the question of experience. Listen to what it was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a good example where he has said the right words but I actually have the experience and am leading 11 of the bills that are in that House- passed bill you just referred to.
And I think this kind of experience matters. I have been devoted to this from the time that I got to the Senate and I think having that experience, knowing how you can get things done, leading the bills to take the social media companies to task, a bipartisan bill to say, yes, you have to say where these ads come from and how they're paid for and stop the unbelievable practice, where we still have 11 states that don't have backup paper ballots.
That is my bipartisan bill and I am so close to getting it done. And the way I get it done is if I'm president. But just like I have won statewide and, Mayor, I have all appreciation for your good work as a local official and you did not win your tribe (ph), I also have actually done this work. I think experience should matter.
MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D-SOUTH BEND, IN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So first of all, Washington experience is not the only experience that matters. There's more than 100 years of Washington experience on this stage.
And where are we right now as a country?
(APPLAUSE)
BUTTIGIEG: I have the experience of bringing people together to get something done. I have the experience of being commanded into a war zone by an American president.
I have the experience of knowing what is at stake as the decisions made in those big white buildings come into our lives, our homes, our families, our workplaces and our marriages. And I would submit that this is the kind of experience we need, not just to go to Washington but to change it before it is too late.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: And Senator Klobuchar was just in this chair before you got here, saying that she thinks your experience is fine because she had it, you know, a few jobs ago.
What's your response?
BUTTIGIEG: Well, being responsible for the well-being of a population and the conduct of a government the way a mayor or a governor or a president is, is different, I think, than any other experience in public service. I certainly respect the experience that she and all of the people on that stage bring.
But this is a moment I think that calls for something different than the conventional, establishment Washington/Capitol Hill experience. What I was making the case for is what we have had to do, especially if a community like mine -- when I arrived, our poverty rate was pushing 30 percent.
Even basic things that a lot of cities that had more prosperity could count on were not there for us in South Bend. They described us as a dying city.
And now, more than any individual achievement I would point to, we've got a city that believes in itself a different way. So guiding a community through that, I think, is as relevant as any experience you can bring to the office. No job is like the presidency.
But everybody arrives at the presidency with their own experience. And I would say mine of leading a population and a community and, of course, my military experience are as relevant as any to what is needed in the White House today.
BASH: So Senator Klobuchar was asked a question that you weren't asked a follow-up on, so I'm going to do that here, which is what she said on CNN a couple of weeks ago, that, if you were a woman or if there were a woman with your level of experience, you wouldn't even be on anybody's radar.
Do you think that's true?
BUTTIGIEG: I think she's right to point out the effect that sexism has in politics today, not only in politics, also across our society and that's why it is so important to build the economic empowerment of women, the social equality of women. It's why I've proposed that my cabinet will be at least 50 percent women. So I do think she's making an important point.
BASH: You talked a lot, your whole message in your campaign but particularly tonight was preaching unity. You talked about a tender moment, which I'm sure Billy Joel will be very happy about.
But you talk about this but what in your background equips you to be the unifier in chief?
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BUTTIGIEG: Well, when you are a mayor, you live and breathe a community that is often divided or torn apart by different issues, as we have been in my own city many times. And it's helped me understand the urgency of drawing together people who sometimes have nothing in common, besides the fact that they live in the same city.
When you're in the military, you are put into a difficult situation with people radically different from you, I mean people with different life experiences, definitely different politics, and you come together to get something done.
We need that same unifying spirit in Washington, not because we're all going to agree on everything. That's not the point. But because the presidency needs to be something that belongs to all of us and builds up that sense of belonging in the United States as well as being able to hold together, galvanize, not polarize the majority that we're going to need to govern and to deliver these things on health care, wages, immigration that all of us were talking about.
BASH: One last question. I know you wanted to get the chance to talk about your military experience. In particular, what the president did with regard to pardoning members of the military who were convicted of war crimes.
BUTTIGIEG: Yes, this didn't come up tonight but it is so important because what the president did was overrule and throw out the judgment of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. A military command accused and convicted people of war crimes.
And the president, by saying -- he said something like, you send people into war and these things happen -- became somebody responsible for this image, this idea that there's no difference between a war fighter and a war criminal, which is a slander against veterans. It is not pro-military to suggest that being sent into a conflict
turns you into a war criminal. And those bright lines between what is lawful and not are part of the foundation of military honor as well as military justice.
The president has undermined it. We need a commander in chief who understands what that military honor requires of us and why that military justice should be respected.
BASH: Mayor Pete Buttigieg, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.
BUTTIGIEG: Good to be with you.
BASH: Anderson?
COOPER: Dana, thanks. We expect to hear from Senator Kamala Harris momentarily. We'll go back to Dana for that. We're here back now in New York, David Gergen, David Axelrod, Nia-Malika Henderson, Gloria Borger, Van Jones, Jess McIntosh and Terry McAuliffe (ph).
We talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the last hour but we just heard from Mayor Pete Buttigieg. Obviously he's polling well in Iowa, in New Hampshire. When it comes to South Carolina, there's a big issue obviously among African American voters. I think there was one recent poll, he's polling at like 0 percent.
VAN JONES, CNN HOST: 0.0. That's tough.
COOPER: Is it?
There's --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: Among black voters.
COOPER: -- some people point to the issues in South Bend, you know, the issues at the police department. Also others say, you know, is it concern over him being gay among African American populations?
Others say that's an unfair characterization of African American viewpoints.
JONES: You watched Pete in this debate. They brought up the issues around farm subsidies. He lights up. And he was unbelievable on that.
I'm from Tennessee. I love to hear people in our party talk about those issues. He was great. He was confident. You just had this sense, this guy has thought about this. He's talked to 100,000 people who are all farmers. He knows what they need. He's ready for business.
When the issues around black stuff comes up, it's more studied. It's more prepared. It's more careful. It feels like he feels he's on some thin ice and I just don't understand why. And I understand he's trying to make that connection, say, listen, I get it.
In my own country, being somebody who is gay, I've got a shared sense of kind of fellow feeling there. But he doesn't do it right because then you start feeling kind of tense when he says it.
Are you claiming -- he doesn't have the touch. He needs to get the touch. He may get the touch. The reality is he's a great candidate. He's growing. To your point, he's growing in front of our very eyes. But he falls off a cliff when he hits these racial issues.
JESS MCINTOSH, CLINTON 2016 CAMPAIGN: I think one of the reasons why Joe Biden is doing so well with black voters is that he seems like the safest, most electable choice. He was the former vice president. Black voters are the closest to the pain when it comes to a President Trump and they care the most about beating him.
Pete Buttigieg is kind of the opposite. He's 37. He's a small-town mayor. As was pointed out tonight, he lost his only statewide race by 25 points. He's clearly an insanely impressive person. But that's not a safe choice for a nominee.
And I think that, just as much as his missteps on the racial issues, might be why African American voters are holding back.
(CROSSTALK)
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I also think there's something sort of more subtle that maybe black people can pick up on that other people can't. Biden seems like he's comfortable around black people, right?
And Pete Buttigieg doesn't seem like he's spent much time around black people.
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HENDERSON: And I don't know how you get over that. I don't know why he hasn't really spent much time around black people. I don't think that's something you can sort of make up with a Douglass plan or, you know, going to Morehouse and taking pictures with a bunch of Morehouse students.
So I don't know. And there's obviously low name ID and maybe there's not the electable thing. But I think, to your point, he just doesn't seem comfortable talking about these issues.
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DAVID AXELROD, CNN HOST: -- electability, though, Barack Obama was largely dismissed by some as a guy four years out of the Illinois state Senate when he ran. And there was a widespread suspicion that he couldn't win.
When he won the Iowa caucuses, the whole psychology changed. This is a dynamic process.
And so how do you persuade people you can win?
You win. You look like a winner and winner begets winning. So that's what he's counting on. Whether it will get him there, I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
MCINTOSH: -- that white voters would vote for a black nominee and that's what happened in Iowa. Pete clearly doesn't have that same challenge. White voters seem to like him.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: But you say he's uneven, then. You know, he can be passionate about one thing and doesn't seem really comfortable about something else. I mean you look at every candidate, they're like that. Look at Joe Biden. Joe Biden tonight, how uneven -- I know you gave him a D.
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AXELROD: For the second half. He got a B in the first half.
BORGER: So maybe a C.
But how uneven is he?
When he talks about foreign policy --
JONES: He's great.
BORGER: He's terrific. He's firm. He doesn't have to think about it. He's not walking on eggshells. He knows what he wants to do.
But when he's talking about other things, maybe health care, maybe a B on that.
But climate change tonight, he had to talk -- marijuana. Climate change tonight, he had to talk about his bill in the '80s. Marijuana was a bit of a problem for him. So he's really uneven.
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AXELROD: But nobody is saying but maybe he'll grow.
BORGER: Well, but they'll say, if he stays uneven, maybe it just kind of evens itself out. With Buttigieg, he has something to prove.
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DAVID GERGEN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: There's this long tradition in American politics that when it comes to finding the next president, we often look for qualities in that person we don't see in the current incumbent. And I think that's working in his favor in this case, because he's thoughtful compared to Trump.
You know, he's actually read books, which makes a difference.
(LAUGHTER) GERGEN: You know, he's younger. He's idealistic. He's inspirational. I can see all of that.
It is troublesome, though, to hear, in his own hometown, he's having so much trouble in the black community. There's something about that that doesn't compute. I don't understand that.
COOPER: Senator Kamala Harris is next. Also Iowa voters weigh in on what they saw tonight. And later, a remarkable day of impeachment testimony as our special late night edition of 360 rolls on.
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COOPER: The Democratic debate tonight and, shortly, digging into what was by any measure a pivotal day of impeachment testimony by a key witness, the closest person yet to President Trump, ambassador and donor to the inaugural of $1 million, Gordon Sondland. Right now another candidate is at Dana Bash's camera location in Atlanta, Senator Kamala Harris. Let's go there.
Dana?
BASH: Thanks, Anderson.
Thank you, Senator, for joining me.
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Of course.
BASH: Just broadly how did you feel about tonight's debate?
HARRIS: I thought it was a good debate. You know, the challenge always is we have a minute and 15 seconds to talk about some of the most important and complicated issues impacting our country and at stake in the election. But overall, I thought it was a good night.
BASH: I want to play for you and for our viewers kind of a surprising moment.
HARRIS: OK.
BASH: A long moment with you and Tulsi Gabbard.
HARRIS: OK.
BASH: Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: I think that it's unfortunate that we have someone on the stage who is attempting to be the Democratic nominee for President of the United States, who, during the Obama administration, spent four years full-time on FOX News, criticizing President Obama --
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: -- who spent full time criticizing people on this stage affiliated with the Democratic Party; when Donald Trump was elected, not even sworn in, buddied up to Steve Bannon to get a meeting with Donald Trump in the Trump Tower; fails to call a war criminal by what he is, as a war criminal. and then spends full time during the course of this campaign, again, criticizing the Democratic Party.
REP. TULSI GABBARD (D-HI), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What Senator Harris is doing is unfortunately continuing to traffic in lies and smears and innuendos because she cannot challenge the substance of the argument that I'm making, the leadership and the change that I'm seeking to bring in our foreign policy, which only makes me guess that she will, as president, continue the status quo, continue the Bush, Clinton, Trump foreign policy of regime change wars, which is deeply destructive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: What made you want to go there?
HARRIS: I was asked the question.
BASH: But you went there. You could have done it in a different way.
HARRIS: Well, I mean, listen, I'm a lifelong Democrat and I believe that the Democratic Party stands for very important values and principles, many of which we talked about tonight, addressing the injustice of the economic divide between Americans and talking about the need to fix that.
Talking about issues like the value of public education and the need to support that, these are the issues that I care about. This is why I am a Democrat. And there have been so many attacks by her against the Democratic Party, against the very structure of how we do our work, that I felt the need to talk about it.
BASH: Any -- I was actually thinking about the moment in CNN's Detroit debate.
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BASH: I was one of the moderators when she went after you.
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HARRIS: That's right.
BASH: She went after you.
Was there anything in the back of your mind that said, OK, now's my chance?
HARRIS: No. I mean a lot has happened since that debate that really does -- it's more evidence of my point about what she's done to attack Democrats consistently. And I felt the need to talk with truth about who the Democratic Party is and what we have at stake.
BASH: One of the points that Mayor Buttigieg made tonight was that, in his attempt to kind of bridge a divide that he has between him and his candidacy and African American voters, according to the polls, is to equate his experience as a gay man with African Americans' experience in this country in terms of, you know, civil rights and not being judged for who they are.
How did you think -- what do you think of that?
Is that a fair comparison?
HARRIS: I don't -- I'm never going to engage or allow anyone to engage in comparing struggles. I think that is just misdirected.
BASH: How so?
HARRIS: So we're going to now say that my pain is worse than your pain?
We had 400 years of slavery in this country. We had years of lynching, which involved black men in particular being dragged from their homes and hung on a tree, often castrated. We've had the years of Jim Crow and institutional racism that included redlining and the systemic racism that lingers today.
And then, you know, we also have our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, who still, under the law, do not have full equality. These are all injustices.
But to start comparing one group's pain to the other is misguided. And I think that anyone who wants to actually build a coalition around the country and bring people together should not be in the position of saying that one group's pain is equal to or less than or greater than another's.
BASH: What about the experience question?
That was a big theme tonight. Senator Klobuchar talked about it. Mayor Buttigieg was kind of on the defensive, saying Washington experience isn't the only experience.
What's your view?
You're a senator but you're a relatively new senator.
HARRIS: Right. I have served in local government as twice-elected district attorney of the city and county of San Francisco. I was elected and re-elected as attorney general of California, a state of 40 million people, where I ran the second largest Department of Justice in the United States, second only to the United States Department of Justice.
I am now serving in the United States Senate as only the second black woman in the history of the Senate to serve there and I serve on the Senate Homeland Security --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: You reminded Joe Biden of that tonight.
HARRIS: But I serve on the Senate Homeland Security Committee and on the Senate Intelligence Committee. I'm the only person on the debate stage to serve on either of those.
So one of the points that was brought up was Amy Klobuchar's right point about the fact that, you know, I know that I would not have been taken seriously as a candidate for President of the United States if I didn't bring all of that experience to bear in terms of my candidacy and in terms of my perspective, based on a life's work of dealing with issues that relate to economic injustice, relate to education issues, relate to immigration, relate to LGBTQ equality.
And I think all of us should be judged based on our experience because, to be President of the United States, especially at this moment in time, it's going to require one to lift a very heavy load. You can't learn on the job.
I think you have to have perspective that comes with experience to know what the battles are and also to have had experience fighting with people in those battles.
BASH: Senator Kamala Harris, thank you so much.
HARRIS: Thank you. It's good to be with you.
COOPER: Up next, Iowa voters give their take on tonight's debate. Plus Cory Booker when we continue.
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COOPER: If recent history is any guide, millions of Americans will have seen tonight's debate. Right now, though, we want to narrow it down to just nine men and women, all Democrats, all but two undecided. Their take on the candidates will set the tone because these nine voters live in Iowa. We first met them back in June. They watched the debate tonight with our Gary Tuchman. Gary?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, five months, five debates. We've been with the same group of loyal Democrats here in the reliably Democratic county of Johnson County, Iowa, home of the University of Iowa.
Each time -- and we watched the debate together today -- they were all undecided when we started. Two have made decisions. First tonight's debate. The first four, Elizabeth Warren did the best among this group.
Who had the best showing tonight, Roseanne (ph)?
ROSEANNE (PH), IOWA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Klobuchar and Booker.
TUCHMAN: Ed?
ED, IOWA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Klobuchar and Warren.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Klobuchar and Booker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Booker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Booker and Warren.
TUCHMAN: Scott?
SCOTT, IOWA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: Booker and Buttigieg.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Booker and Klobuchar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Booker and Klobuchar.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warren and Klobuchar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Warren and Klobuchar.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Klobuchar and Booker.
TUCHMAN: Klobuchar and Booker. So it looks like most of you, the highest number is Booker; Klobuchar second. Warren sounds like she came in third here. And Buttigieg had one?
One person said Buttigieg?
One person said Buttigieg.
First of all, why do you think Booker did the best?
Who wants to tell us?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's the most inspiring. He's always working on talking about the issues in a positive manner and he doesn't do any personal attacking.
TUCHMAN: We didn't hear Biden or Sanders, two of the front-runners.
How come no one says anything about Biden and Sanders in a positive way after this debate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think they really did anything differently than what we've seen in previous debates.
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TUCHMAN: How do you think Biden did, Malone (ph)? You picked Biden the first debate, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, during the first debate. I mean, for me, Biden was just a little off. I mean, he started mumbling on certain things, so I just kind of backed off.
TUCHMAN: Impeachment, big issue right now, as we know. First thing that was mentioned during the debate. But an interesting point was Amy Klobuchar said our job is to look at each count when talking about impeachment. Kamala Harris said we have a criminal in the White House, two very different approaches, which is the best approach in this debate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Klobuchar.
TUCHMAN: Klobuchar, for sure? So you think that was too harsh, what -- what Kamala Harris said about Donald Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we are in that fact-finding mode right now.
TUCHMAN: The fact is, he's not a convicted criminal. That's -- that's a fact, right? OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I mean --
TUCHMAN: But you think Klobuchar's approach is the better approach?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The senators are going to be jurors. They need to at least come into it with an open mind, looking at the evidence presented. Otherwise, in a normal jury trial, they would be struck.
TUCHMAN: So you think enough was mentioned about the impeachment issue in this debate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: What was the most important moment, you thought, during the debate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the conversation about acknowledging people of color throughout everything, not just during the election season. It came up multiple times.
TUCHMAN: What do you think, Temple (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree. Showing up, making sure that they show up for black women, because black women have continuously showed up at the polls.
TUCHMAN: Do you want to continue seeing this many people in the debates?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
TUCHMAN: You know, you were going to go to the Iowa caucuses on February 3. Is it OK with ten or 12 people are still in the race?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
TUCHMAN: You want them to leave?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I -- I would prefer that they recognize that, nationally, it -- it's just not their time and to bow out so that the other candidates can have that opportunity.
TUCHMAN: So, who should drop out?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Andrew Yang.
TUCHMAN: Anyone else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tulsi Gabbard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gabbard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gabbard, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And Steyer.
TUCHMAN: And Steyer. OK.
Final question for you. I was talking about we were all undecided when we started. Have any of you made a decision?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have.
TUCHMAN: You have?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am planning to caucus for Amy Klobuchar.
TUCHMAN: Amy Klobuchar. How about you, Ed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not yet.
TUCHMAN: Not yet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not yet.
TUCHMAN: Not yet?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Privately yes but no because --
TUCHMAN: Privately?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Privately.
TUCHMAN: So we can't -- can't shake you to get it out of you? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, because we're still advocating for mental
illness plans.
TUCHMAN: OK, Scott, you're the husband. Have you decided?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not decided.
TUCHMAN: Do you know who she wants?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do. I can't tell you.
TUCHMAN: Rakesha (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
TUCHMAN: OK. Now Temple (ph), you have a sticker that says Warren on your red sweatshirt. You had decided Warren two debates ago. Have you changed your mind about her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have not.
TUCHMAN: So you're still with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will still be caucusing for Warren.
TUCHMAN: And Janice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm getting close. Not there yet.
TUCHMAN: Not there, OK. So most of our people still undecided. There's still a lot of time, but in a sense, it's dwindling, because it is exactly 75 days until the Iowa caucuses -- Anderson.
COOPER: Wow, 75 days. Thank them so much for -- for being with us yet again. So nice that they came back. Gary, thank you.
I want to go back to Dana Bash. She is with Senator Cory Booker -- Dana.
BASH: Thank you so much. That was --
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So good to be here, yes.
BASH: It's good to see you. That was fascinating to hear what Gary Tuchman was hearing from those voters. You won with those undecided voters in terms of your debate performance tonight.
BOOKER: Yes.
BASH: And yet the question, of course, is are you going to go caucus for, who you want to caucus for, and your name didn't come up. How do you bridge that?
BOOKER: Well, let me tell you why it's important. This time out, the polls have never been predictive of who was going to be president. Iowa sees upsets. Obama was 21 points behind right now.
But what we have going for us, which Obama did and others who have upset is, I'm now at net -- No. 3 in net favorability in this state. We actually have -- lead the whole field, Iowa and New Hampshire, in local leaders, mayors and state reps.
So we're building the kind of team that we need slowly. And what we find is when people come to a longer town hall with me, we get a high percentage of people that sign commitment to caucus cards.
So we're very much in the hunt and ready to upset in Iowa, like most of our presidents of the past who weren't pulling a great, like I'm not, that would go on and win in Iowa because of all those other metrics that are really important.
BASH: The difference between then and now, of course, are the debate rules.
BOOKER: Yes.
BASH: And this debate was do or die for you. And this time period is do or die for you.
BOOKER: Yes.
BASH: Because as you said during this debate, you're right now not on the debate stage in -- in December.
BOOKER: Right. Right, so we're on this precipice right now. People want me on that stage, you're going to have to go to CoryBooker.com and contribute.
So here's the good news. In the first hour after the debate, we had more money raised and the best fundraising day of our campaign. So people are now saying that this is the moment. If you want me in this race, you've got to go to CoryBooker.com. You've got to choose me. You've got to make a contribution.
BASH: But it's also the polls.
BOOKER: Absolutely, we need -- we're missing it by 1 percent in all polls, which is, like, one person of the 400 or 1,000 people that they call.
BASH: In four polls.
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BOOKER: Yes, so there's a lot of qualifying polls between now and then. All we need is a 1 percent more, which is about one person in any poll. So I'm hoping people will keep me in this race by choosing me.
The first step, though, we've got to get that fundraising up, and we really need to continue this to be the best fundraising day. If folks want me, we're on the precipice. You want me on that stage, then contribute.
BASH: What -- I just want to ask you again, because I'm sure you think about this a lot.
BOOKER: A lot.
BASH: Since you spend your time, you know, running around the country campaigning, why is it that people give you these high marks, and yet you can't get there, so far, in the polls?
BOOKER: Because what's wrong about polling is that people decide late. That's why, from Carter polling at 1 percent right now, Bill Clinton polling at 4 percent right now, Barack Obama 21 points behind, they all benefited from people. Just remember, 80 percent of Iowans say they haven't made up their final decision, as you saw with that.
We are scoring points for folks in our debate performances, in our town halls. Their local leaders choosing me more than any other candidate. We're all setting this up.
But because of these rules now by the DNC, even though we have more Democratically-elected people endorsing me, their rules are on polling. Polls have never been predictive, but it's something we have to do and individual contributions online. We need those folks to keep me in this race.
BASH: So, you said tonight during this debate that you shouldn't need a focus group to hear from African-American voters. You said, you don't need a focus group. What were you referring to, or who -- whom are you referring to?
BOOKER: I just see that politicians often figure out what they're going to think by polls, by focus groups.
BASH: But you weren't specifically talking about anybody out on that -- that stage?
BOOKER: I was specifically talking about the fact that we need to elect someone who has an authentic connection to the communities we need for the coalition.
The difference between us winning a presidential election in '12 and not winning it in '16 can be -- if you can look, just look through the lens of African-Americans. We had a record tonight in 2012 of African-American turnout. If we had the same turnout in 2016 of African-Americans, we'd be talking about Secretary and President Hillary Clinton right now.
So if you -- if you -- if we're going to elect somebody, let's elect somebody that is authentically connected, that can inspire African- Americans to vote at the same level as they did in the record years.
BASH: Do you think Joe Biden is authentically connected?
BOOKER: I think he's going to have to answer for what I think continue to be indications that he's out of step with the urgencies of the things that affect our country.
And so I love Joe, excuse me, the vice president. He is somebody that I literally -- I don't use that word loosely. He's swarming into office. He's somebody that we all respect.
But again, the leaders that have done it for us in the past -- Bill Clinton, Barack Obama -- are people that had the kind of love, loyalty and excitement and enthusiasm to get record turnouts.
I hope that Joe, the vice president, excuse me, will, you know, just in general, if we're having this conversation -- I've brought these issues up twice now on the debate stage. I really hope that we can have a substantive connection about the issues that are really impacting communities of color in this country.
And the marijuana issue, remember, people on college campuses don't get arrested for marijuana. We had more marijuana arrests in 2017 than all violent crimes combined. And it's disproportionately focusing on African-Americans and low-income people, black and brown low-income people.
That's a major problem, that we have a drug war that's not a war on drugs but a war on people.
BASH: So we have to toss back to Anderson, and we have to take a break, but yes or no. If you don't make the next debate stage, will you stay in the race?
BOOKER: I think we have to have that conversation as a campaign. I do think this is a turning point in my entire campaign. We need to surge. We need the support. Please keep me on that stage so I can keep bringing up issues that are important to all Americans.
BASH: But you might drop out if you don't make it?
BOOKER: I'm not -- I'm not making any determination right now, because I believe we're going to make it, and I need folks' help. Go to CoryBooker.com if you want me in this.
BASH: Senator Cory Booker, thank you so much.
BOOKER: Thank you.
BASH: Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Dana, Senator, thanks very much.
Just ahead, we're going to talk about the other big news tonight, riveting testimony during today's impeachment inquiry. The U.S. ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, puts the president, Rudy Giuliani and a lot of top White House officials on notice.
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[00:42:58] COOPER: Tonight's other big story, riveting impeachment testimony from Gordon Sondland, the president's donor turned diplomat. Sondland said the White House demanded investigations from Ukraine in exchange for a White House visit, affirming a quid pro quo.
He implicated the president, Rudy Giuliani, Mike Pence, the acting chief of staff, and the secretary of state. Quoting from Sondland now, "Everyone," he said, "was in the loop."
He was also asked about that July call he had with President Trump outdoors at a restaurant in Ukraine and the language he used to describe the proposed deal. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN GOLDMAN, COUNSEL FOR THE MAJORITY: You confirmed to President Trump that you are in Ukraine at the time and that President Zelensky quote, "loves your ass," unquote. Do you recall saying that?
GORDON SONDLAND, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO E.U.: That sounds like something I would say. That's how President Trump and I communicate, a lot of four-letter words. In this case, three-letter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Classic Gordon.
Back with our political team. Joining us Tim Naftali, a CNN presidential historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library.
Van, have you ever seen somebody testify who is so happy to be there?
JONES: It was -- the whole thing was just so bizarre and, you know, it's like --
COOPER: I feel like he's going to be talking about this over dinner for the rest of his life.
JONES: For 20 years, 20 years.
COOPER: Yes.
JONES: And rehearsing it and remembering it or whatever, but also, it was, though, I think --
COOPER: And then I said --
JONES: Exactly. Because it is, it is how we talk, you know.
COOPER: Three-letter word.
JONES: Exactly, see. Exactly, thanks, grandpa.
I mean -- but I mean, I think we laugh because it just -- it hurts too much to cry. I mean, you sit here, and you think about the Ukrainian freedom fighters who are out there, trying to stop Putin from doing what Hitler did, gobbling up countries, running over borders.
And -- and they used to be able to look to Americans for hope and help. And, you know, we play politics with their lives, and their liberties, and it's wrong.
[00:45:03]
And so now we have to go through this whole grueling process. And we're in hell.
And you know, for me, you know, I watch this process. We all look at the same thing, and then afterwards, it's like we're watching two different movies. So even when you have people there doing it, saying all these things, we still can't agree. So it's tough. I thought today was tough.
COOPER: Tim, we haven't heard from you.
TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, today, first of all, Ambassador Sondland not only connected dots, but he added dots. And since this is a very different impeachment experience for the country, I'm seeing this the -- as an accumulation of a mosaic.
You know, every other impeachment process, we've either had one big documents dump in the case in Clinton, when you had the Starr report; or in the case of Nixon, the impeachment inquiry took place behind closed doors. The only part that was public was when the members, the elected members, debated whether or not they would impeach President Nixon. So it was behind closed doors.
This is the first time the American people have actually watched the collection of data as the elected members are watching it. And what was so interesting today was to see the Republicans have a very hard time recalibrating their defense.
So if this is the end of the story, this is going to be tough for Democrats, perhaps, to move Republicans in the House.
I think in the Senate, it's different, because in the House you have to -- you have gerrymandered districts. It's hard to gerrymander a state.
But if the -- if more people come out, if this affects the decision on the part of people like Bolton or others to testify, because what happened today was Sondland said, the NSC is also part of this. That was a very important sub-story.
He was the one, he started to hit the argument that Fiona Hill will make, but she made it in her testimony, that Tim Morrison made, that the NFC tried to keep itself away from this nonsense, from the three stooges.
He was saying, unh-uh, this was not in a regular channel. They were all involved.
This might provoke what's really necessary, which is somebody who talked to President Trump on a regular basis, like, Bolton to come and say, hey, the reason we did this was, if we didn't do this, the president would not have given Ukraine anything, because he doesn't like Ukraine. We had to pay him off, and the only way to pay President Trump off was to get some dirt on his opponent.
COOPER: We're going to take a quick break. We're going to have more with our panel. Stick around.
Coming up also, a look ahead at another big day of testimony later this morning, a couple hours.
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[00:51:44]
COOPER: Later today -- yes, it is late -- two more witnesses will go before the House Intelligence Committee. Fiona Hill, who we mentioned before the break. Also, Ukrainian embassy staffer David Holmes, who testified that he overheard President Trump's phone call with Gordon Sondland at a restaurant in Kyiv.
Back now with our political and historical team.
Tomorrow, I mean, obviously, look, today was a day that a lot of people were looking toward. I don't know if it changed the needle. I don't know if anybody here thinks it moved the needle one way or the other, or as I oddly said, changed the needle. It's a whole new needle. Does tomorrow, you know, I mean, at this point, where does it go?
AXELROD: You, know I think today -- I think Van is quite right. I actually think -- you know, they are methodically laying the pieces of a case, and you have to sort of suspend logic not to see those pieces.
But the Republicans are turning it into very much of a partisan scrum. And people are -- they want to keep their tribe in place, and they're probably succeeding in doing it.
But in terms of laying brick in the case, you know, Fiona Hill, obviously, was a very powerful witness in the depositions. She was a deputy to John Bolton, was a witness to the whole thing, may know about Bolton's conversations with the president, which are key. Tim suggests it. He was the guy who went in and said to the president, why aren't we giving aid to -- and Tim Morrison, who succeeded Fiona Hill, said he didn't know what the president said to Bolton other than that, no, I'm not ready. So I think, you know, Fiona Hill will be important.
Will it change the basic dynamic? No, I think we're headed to impeachment. I think we're headed to, you know, acquittal in the Senate. We require 20 Republicans, and I don't think you're going to get those.
And remember, we've never removed a president through this process in the history of the republic. BORGER: Yes, I mean, she is Bolton's proxy. She was close to Bolton,
worked for him, told the great story about July 10 and those meetings in the -- in the White House with Gordon Sondland, where he felt the need to say in front of the Ukrainians that -- that there would have to be investigation, and she almost tore her hair out. And then Bolton said, I don't want to be part of that drug deal.
COOPER: Again, classic Gordon.
BORGER: Classic Gordon. Who seems to have -- you know, he's the -- as I was saying earlier, here's the problem child who seems to have the need to say everything publicly. And they had their Gordon problem.
And so she will talk about inside the White House and how that didn't work and the problems that they had on the national security side with this foreign policy that she describes as irregular, even though Gordon Sondland thought it was the real foreign policy.
GERGEN: I'm really looking for to the David Holmes testimony, because I think it's going to be graphic and something you can communicate to the American people. And once they hear it, they understand. They get it. And the more you look at the facts in this case, the more you come away from feeling that the evidence is overwhelming.
Interesting sidebar, talking to Joe Lockhart tonight when he -- before we went on the air. And he pointed out that there's a six-hour or seven-hour time difference between Kyiv and Washington, D.C. and that the call was placed at lunchtime from Kyiv.
[00:55:08]
And so if it was 1 p.m. in the afternoon at lunch, it would be 6 a.m. in the morning. He was calling the president of the United States at 6 a.m. in the morning, his time. Why would they ever put him through? How did he possibly get through?
The only conceivable answer is that the operators were told by the president, I have a call that I'm expecting tomorrow. I want to take that call.
The more you look at that, the more you realize, you know, that's a pretty damning statement itself.
COOPER: The president, allegedly on the call, sort of said, you are in Ukraine, as if he didn't know --
GERGEN: Right.
COOPER: -- wasn't aware that he was in Ukraine.
GERGEN: Right, but he was reporting in --
COOPER: Right.
GERGEN: -- on what they had found, what he had found in the last 24 hours.
AXELROD: He did say -- he did say the present was cranky, maybe because he was interrupting tweeting time.
COOPER: Yes. We're going to leave it there. Thank you, everyone.
CNN's coverage of the impeachment hearings continues with Erica Hill, next.
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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Erica Hill. Thanks for joining us.
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