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American Credibility in the World; Netanyahu Indicted on Bribery and Fraud Charges; Voters in Philadelphia Weigh in on Impeachment; Former FBI Lawyer Under Investigation; USA Gymnastics Withheld Nassar Investigation. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired November 22, 2019 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Jim, I think this impeachment scandal over Ukraine has weakened American credibility in Eastern Europe in two respects. First, our big goal, our abiding goal over the last 10 years is contain Russian power in Eastern Europe, prevent Putin from dominating countries like Ukraine and Georgia. And we failed in that. We've failed when it's apparent through the impeachment proceedings, that the president's sole concern was getting Joe Biden and not helping the Ukrainian government. He withheld the military aid.
Second, Ukraine's been independent, as you know very well, for 28 years. George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama had the same policy towards Ukraine. Our advice to them was, don't be corrupt. Be transparent. Don't act like an authoritarian country. What did President Trump and Rudy Giuliani do? They encouraged President Zelensky to go after President Trump's major adversary, Joe Biden. They encouraged the Ukrainians to act like thugs, like authoritarians. And, you know, countries have credibility or they lose it. I think we've lost credibility on the Russia issue and on the Ukraine issue.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
You know, there's a fiction, right, that there is no direct line to the president here when, again, all the people who were carrying out the policy expressed no doubt that the direction for this quid pro quo was coming from the White House. Gordon Sondland even said so. He said so.
And I just want to play some sounds by David Holmes because he got a bit wobbly on that, Sondland did, and then Republicans jumped on that to say, well, there really isn't a direct line here. But listen to David Holmes and I want to get your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID HOLMES, POLITICAL AFFAIRS COUNSELOR, U.S. EMBASSY IN UKRAINE: He made clear that he had direct and frequent access to President Trump and Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and portrayed himself as the conduit to the president and Mr. Mulvaney for this group.
The official said that the order had come from the president and had been conveyed to OMB by Mr. Mulvaney with no further explanation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: So Sondland claimed throughout he was acting on the orders of the president. The OMB, of course, Mick Mulvaney, you know, they're saying the order came from the president. But the White House successfully blocked the Mulvaneys of the world, the Boltons of the world from testifying who could then say, yes, the president told me to do this. I just wonder is, is a sobering takeaway that the White House strategy here of obstruction worked.
BURNS: I think tactically the White House is in a strong position because we should be hearing from Mike Pompeo, the secretary of state. We should be hearing from the vice president. We should be hearing from Mulvaney
And, you know, here's an FSO, a foreign service officer, David Holmes, who told the truth, that when the code, we want Ukraine to engage in these investigations, Burisma, that really meant go after Joe Biden. And that's where Ambassador Sondland, who never took notes, and he says he didn't have access to his notes, but he wasn't as precise as he could have been, that did give the Republicans an opening. I thought David Holmes and Fiona Hill in saying, of course this mean investigating the Bidens. They're correct, but I'm not sure that's the message the Republican Party took away from this.
SCIUTTO: You know, the timing throughout this story is interesting and notable. The call to the Ukrainian president, the famous July phone call, happened within 24 hours of Robert Mueller finishing his testimony on The Hill. The general view being on The Hill, well, it was not as much as expected. And Adam Schiff made a connection there saying, the president then felt liberated to some degree.
BURNS: Right.
SCIUTTO: I wonder, do you think the president takes -- and, again, he may very likely be impeached in the House, but on a party line vote. But do you take his likely survival in the Senate that he will look at that as license to continue to conduct foreign policy in this way?
BURNS: I think that's how this president operates. I mean I think any other human being would have been chasent (ph) by the near miss of the Mueller investigation from the president's perspective and yet, in -- with incredible hubris and arrogance, the next day -- and I went back and read the transcript yesterday, Jim, of the July 25th phone call. The president said, investigate the Bidens. That takes a lot of arrogance.
And so I fear that if the president is acquitted in a trial by the Senate, he will have learned nothing from this. He won't be more careful. He won't be more patriotic in thinking about American interests first rather than his own political interest, and that's a shame for our country. That's a loss for our country.
SCIUTTO: At the core of this was a U.S. commitment to an ally, Ukraine, at war with Russia, being invaded by Russia, having part of its territory annexed by Russia. Is -- are U.S. national security, is Ukraine, is NATO safer today or less safe as a result of this?
BURNS: Less safe. And certainly the United States is portraying itself not to be a firm, steady, reliable, credible partner to Ukraine or ally to the NATO countries. I said at the beginning, Jim, the number one goal of the United States, if you ask all the Republicans in the Senate and all the Democrats is, contain Putin. The president's been the weakest president we've had vis-a-vis Russia.
[09:35:02]
He's been palling around with Putin, not giving Putin the tough messages that Ronald Reagan would have given him, certainly that Barack Obama and Bill Clinton would have given.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Ambassador Burns, these things have consequences. Thanks for walking us through them.
BURNS: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Poppy, that's the world we live in today.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, your question was so great. I hadn't thought of it. But, you know, if he's acquitted, does this give him license to continue conducting foreign policy like this if there are no consequences?
All right, so very important development in Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is promising to fight what he's calling an attempted coup. He has been indicted in three separate corruption cases. Israeli's attorney general announced charges of fraud, bribery and breach of trust against Netanyahu. And this marks the first time in the country's history that a sitting prime minister faces indictment in criminal investigations.
SCIUTTO: Yes, where else have you heard that coup in reaction to legal actions?
HARLOW: Yes.
SCIUTTO: CNN's Paula Newton is in Jerusalem.
Paula, Netanyahu rejecting calls to resign, but the fact is here, even with his own party, Likud, he has challengers. Do we expect those challengers to successfully exercise pressure here and replace him?
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I guess if I want to give you the short answer to that, and I'm not expert in Israeli politics, I would say no. They're certainly -- there have been murmurs about it. He's got one specific challenger. But really, at this point, they're going to let Netanyahu continue with what are absolutely vehement denials. And as you point out, Jim, it's not just about the way he is saying that he's not guilty of any of the charges, exactly pointedly saying there's no evidence here. No, it's the language he's using, coup, saying it's a witch hunt. More than that, the investigators need to be investigated, and also saying that these are politically motivated charges.
And, you know, the AG, the attorney general, a person who served as his cabinet secretary, who came down with these charges -- tell me if these words sound familiar -- say no one is above the law and I had to bring these charges because the proof was there.
At issue here, the allegations are that Benjamin Netanyahu basically did some media tycoons some favors in his official capacity as prime minister. In exchange, he got favorable media coverage. And on top of that, they accuse him of taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts.
At issue here, though, and I have to remind you guys, Jim and Poppy, it's Shabbat right now. They're just closing up and, boy, does this country needs a break.
The indictment wasn't just the half of it. This is a country that right now does not have a new government. Two elections gone already this year. One -- another one possibly coming early next.
HARLOW: Yes.
NEWTON: They need a break.
HARLOW: It's -- it's remarkable. I mean if that happens, Paula, to have three, you know, country-wide general elections for leadership in -- in the span of a year is significant and obviously very destabilizing.
Thank you for your reporting from Jerusalem this morning. We appreciate it.
OK, so you watched, I'd assume, a lot of the impeachment hearings. How are they resonating with voters in battleground states? We are speaking to people in the crucial 2020 suburbs of Philadelphia.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:42:55]
HARLOW: All right, so we don't know yet if two weeks of impeachment hearings did anything to shift public opinion about the president and potential impeachment. But our Vanessa Yurkevich travelled to the suburbs of Philadelphia to hear from voters there in that critical district in that critical swing state.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOUG STIRLING, WCHE RADIO HOST: And good morning everybody. We'll talk a little politics. Want to know what you think about the impeachment hearings.
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The morning rush to Philadelphia with impeachment on the mind.
STEPHEN DIBONAVENTURA, PENNSYLVANIA REPUBLICAN: It's a big show and I think we're just wasting taxpayers' money.
YURKEVICH: No matter their political party, voters here in the suburbs are paying attention, from the airways --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They would be thrown out in any courtroom, put it that way.
STIRLING: Nothing there there, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
YURKEVICH: To the railways.
LINTON STABLES, PENNSYLVANIA DEMOCRAT: I'm totally convinced that he's committed a crime.
YURKEVICH: A narrow victory in Pennsylvania helped deliver the White House to Donald Trump 2016. Democrats here now on offense with strong voter turnout in local elections earlier this month, helping them score victories in three suburban Philadelphia counties.
STIRLING: Now that we are a thoroughly blue county for the first time in 150 years, that may portend trouble for the president next year.
YURKEVICH: Jane Young and her friends have been glued to the hearings for the past two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the opening statements, we're not talking.
CHARLOTTE HUMMEL, PENNSYLVANIA DEMOCRAT: Oh, that's not going to happen. You invited the wrong person.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shh. Shh.
YURKEVICH: At her watch party in Delaware County, four Democrats and one independent, all believe the president has committed a crime.
ADRIAN MILLER, PENNSYLVANIA INDEPENDENT: And we're talking about acceptance of law and what -- we're determining what our laws are now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
MILLER: So are we going to accept that -- that this is practice now or are we not going to accept this is practice now?
HUMMEL: I think that we're ahead of the congressional hearings. We believed it before they walked in the room and produced the witnesses.
YURKEVICH: Across time, Alexo and Valerie Bell.
VALERIE MORGAN BELL, PENNSYLVANIA INDEPENDENT: It's not supposed to be a few people picking the leaders of the country.
ALEXO BELL, PENNSYLVANIA REPUBLICAN: Right.
YURKEVICH: Alexo, a staunch Trump supporter: His wife Valerie, an independent, who's not a fan of the president.
YURKEVICH (on camera): Have you discussed the impeachment inquiry?
[09:45:03]
A. BELL: I know where she stands, you know what I mean? She would like to see him get the boot, you know, and I wouldn't. So it's kind of a moot point to even talk about it.
YURKEVICH (voice over): While respecting each other's opinions is key their to marriage, there's no love lost on their distinct views on impeachment.
A. BELL: I this the Democrats are grasping at straws wherever they can.
V. BELL: I just think you have to hold the president to a higher standard. And I think it doesn't look good. It doesn't have good optics.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YURKEVICH: Now, the vast majority of voters that we spoke to in Pennsylvania say they don't believe the president will be impeached or removed from office. But the key here is that they think the 2020 election, Poppy, will ultimately decide his fate.
But we only found one voter who actually knows who they're voting for in 2020.
HARLOW: Wow.
YURKEVICH: That's a Republican who is going to vote for President Trump. Again, the vast majority of the people you saw in that piece, independents, Democrats, even a Republican looking for another option say they don't see a frontrunner yet. They don't know who they're voting for.
HARLOW: Yes.
YURKEVICH: They're still undecided. And, of course, that could be a big problem as impeachment will clearly be on the minds of voters in 2020.
HARLOW: And, obviously, if it's Elizabeth Warren, that's one thing for them. If it's Joe Biden, that's a whole different story for them, right?
YURKEVICH: A very different story.
HARLOW: Vanessa, great reporting. Thank you very much.
YURKEVICH: Thank you.
HARLOW: Jim.
SCIUTTO: That will be the big question coming up.
Well, this hour, a former FBI official is now under criminal investigation, accused of altering documents that were part of the 2016 Russia problem. What we're learning about this, what it means for the bigger picture, that's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:51:15]
SCIUTTO: This was first on CNN. Sources telling CNN that a former FBI lawyer is now under criminal investigation for allegedly altering a document related to the 2016 Russia probe. This is part of a broader Justice Department investigation into the origins of the Russian probe.
CNN's Evan Perez, he broke the story. He joins me now.
So tell us the details about this criminal investigation.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So this former lawyer, he's no longer with the FBI, worked on the -- some of the documents that were used to prepare the FISA, the surveillance warrant, on Carter Page, the former Trump campaign aide. And in doing so, altered one of the documents that was used in -- in the course of that preparation.
This is now -- this is something that was found as part of the inspector general investigation. Michael Horowitz there, the inspector general of the Justice Department, we expect that that's going to be part of the report that comes out on December 9th. And it is now part of an investigation by John Durham, who's the prosecutor that Bill Barr, the attorney general, has appointed to do this wider look-back at 2016 and of the intelligence that was used as part of the Russia investigation.
SCIUTTO: OK. As you know, you reported many times, there were many pieces of intelligence and analysis --
PEREZ: Sure.
SCIUTTO: That went into the broader investigation, not just in one FISA warrant.
PEREZ: Right.
SCIUTTO: Based on what you know, does this change or undermine the rationale for beginning the probe as a whole?
PEREZ: No, and I think that's a very important thing. I think it's clear that the FBI had plenty of reasons to start this investigation. There were so many things, including, obviously, the tip from the Australian ambassador after talking to George Papadopoulos, the other -- one of the other campaign aides, talking about some of the activity involving the Russians.
And so there's plenty of reasons for this investigation. I think you're going to see that in Horowitz' report.
And I think even the FISA of Carter Page, that there was plenty of reasons for the FBI to be suspicious, to want to do a surveillance of Carter Page. I think you're going to see that in this report as well. "The Washington Post" is reporting that Horowitz found that there -- that there was -- even despite these mistakes, obviously these errors, that there was reason to do this, that the warrant was valid.
SCIUTTO: Not indicting the entire investigation it seems.
PEREZ: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: OK, Evan Perez, great reporting, first on CNN.
PEREZ: Thanks.
SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:58:06]
SCIUTTO: There's new reporting in "The Wall Street Journal" this morning that USA Gymnastics withheld the investigation of Larry Nassar's sexual abuse allegations from the star, the gymnast, Simone Biles. Last year the former doctor for the U.S. women's team was sentenced, you may remember, up to 175 years in prison for multiple sex crimes.
HARLOW: Now, Biles was among the first athletes who told the organization, USA Gymnastics, that she was worried, she had concerns, she was uncomfortable with Nassar's behavior.
Let's go to our national correspondent, Brynn Gingras, who's following all of it this morning.
And, Brynn, a very powerful message from Biles just this morning.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, she tweeted out immediately after this story was breaking, Poppy, numb is becoming a normal feeling. And I think that sums it up pretty well. I mean for all of the gymnasts who have been involved in this ongoing scandal, really, that just hasn't ended and isn't really giving them any more answers.
But this all (ph) reporting coming from an extensive review by "The Wall Street Journal" and essentially saying that back in 2015 Simone Biles was among a small group of gymnasts, including Ali Raisman, who told USA Gymnastics about their concerns. And those concerns went up the chain of command and yet no one told Simone Biles that they were having an independent -- their own investigation into the conduct of Larry Nassar.
On top of that, no one gave Simone Biles, according to this report -- no one gave the FBI Simone Biles' name as someone that they -- investigators should talk to as they conduct their own investigation. So it's all sort of, she wasn't listened to, and that's the matter of fact about this and that's why it's so disheartening for not only her but other gymnasts who have felt this same feeling coming out from these multiple investigations.
She also said in a quick tweet, can't tell you how hard this is to read and process. The pain is real and doesn't just go away, especially when new facts are still coming out.
[10:00:03]
Guys.
SCIUTTO: Yes, that's quite an amazing omission there.
Brynn Gingras, thanks very much.
GINGRAS: Yes.
[10:00:00]
