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Will John Bolton Speak Out?; Joe Biden Speaks Out. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired November 22, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Thank you for being here.

It is certainly no secret that John Bolton clashed with President Trump while working in the White House, but is the president's former national security adviser getting ready to dish on his time at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

The answer to the question might lie in one of the president's favorite forms of communication, Twitter. Bolton, with Twitter fingers, jumping back on the social media platform today after the two-month absence, an absence he claims took place after the White House blocked him from using his own account.

CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger is with me.

And, Gloria, let me just tick through these really quickly. So Bolton, you know, says his Twitter account was suppressed unfairly in the aftermath of his resignation, that he wasn't hiding and that his followers should -- quote, unquote -- "stay tuned for the backstory," dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, right, that there's more to come.

So, when you first saw this today, what did you think? What is he up to?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the first thing was, wow.

He -- and the second thing was, he's trying to sell books, obviously. And the third thing was, when he said, what are they -- are they afraid of me out of fear of what I might say, I thought, interesting, particularly coming after Fiona Hill yesterday.

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm.

BORGER: It's clear that John Bolton is no friend of this White House.

And he played a big role in this in -- this question of suppressing military aid to Ukraine because of a political favor the president asked of a foreign leader, and clearly disapproved of it.

I mean, as Fiona Hill testified, he called it some kind of drug deal, right?

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

BORGER: So I thought, John Bolton, if he ever ends up testifying -- and that's big if -- is not going to be a friendly witness to this White House.

BALDWIN: Yes.

I mean, if it is just about his book, I think it's a shame.

BORGER: Yes, I agree.

BALDWIN: But perhaps -- perhaps he will use his voice, not just on Twitter, but he could go to Capitol Hill. He could talk on TV. He could write an opinion piece.

There are other ways he could have gotten his message out there in the last couple of months.

BORGER: Exactly. I agree with you. I totally agree with you.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

BORGER: And Fiona Hill yesterday made the same point. She said everybody who -- with something to say ought to be saying it.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BORGER: Hint. Hint.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Speaker Pelosi says that her party won't wait for the courts to decide if figures like John Bolton or Mick Mulvaney should testify.

BORGER: Right.

BALDWIN: And then multiple Democratic sources tell CNN that an impeachment vote on the House floor could actually happen by Christmas.

But is there a risk, Gloria, in fast-tracking this, because we have heard from at least one Democrat, Brad Sherman of California, who approves going forward, but tells us that -- quote -- "It wouldn't hurt to get a bit more information."

Does he have a point?

BORGER: He's right. It wouldn't hurt to get more information, but they have tried it the other way. And they have been stonewalled time and time again.

The courts are proceeding. You don't know what will happen. I don't know what will happen in the courts, perhaps in time for the Senate trial. We just -- we just don't know. I think Pelosi's feeling is -- and I

understand it -- which is, look, we have gone to the courts, they have stonewalled us. We're going to proceed on a separate track. We're going to make it a count of obstruction if they continue to stonewall us. We want to have all these other people testify.

But don't forget, Brooke, you do have the president's testimony in the form of the summary of his phone call with the president of Ukraine in which he said, "I'd like you to do me a favor, though," and then started mentioning the Bidens and CrowdStrike.

So we do have that literally, and the Senate can, of course, use it.

BALDWIN: In the midst of all of this, you have Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who has asked the State Department for documents involving the Bidens.

And Don Lemon, our friend Don, just sat down with former Vice President Biden, Joe Biden, and asked about that.

So, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Let me ask you, because Lindsey Graham now, who you have worked with, who was a friend, who I know there's video of him saying, oh, you are the nicest person he's ever met, you're the greatest man, and now he's asking the State Department for documents for you and your son.

What do you say to Lindsey Graham and folks like him?

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're asking Lindsey Graham. They have him under their thumb right now.

They know he knows, if he comes out against Trump, he's got a real tough road for reelection, number one.

I am disappointed and, quite frankly, I'm angered by the fact. He knows me. He knows my son. He knows there's nothing to this.

Trump is now essentially holding power over him that even the Ukrainians wouldn't yield to. Ukrainians would not yield to -- quote -- "investigate Biden." There's nothing to investigate about Biden or his son.

And Lindsey is about to go down in a way that I think he's going to regret his whole life.

LEMON: What do you say to him?

BIDEN: I say, Lindsey, I just -- I'm just embarrassed by what you're doing, for you.

[15:05:02] I mean, my lord.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Embarrassed.

What do you think of that, Gloria?

BORGER: I think they have known each other a long time.

I think that Joe Biden was very close to John McCain. And Lindsey Graham was John McCain's partner in almost everything. And you can sense the disappointment, as he put it.

But you can sense the fact that he's saying, what's going on here with you? I get this is political. Sure, it's political, but I think this is Joe Biden, whose campaign is talking about, I think we can work together with Republicans, I think we can get back to bipartisanship.

And here he is now with somebody that he would have -- that he would have stretched his arm out to and said, hey, let's work together. Suddenly, I think he feels betrayed by Lindsey Graham in all of this.

And he understands it on one level. But, on another level, I think it's not only political for Joe Biden. I think it's quite personal.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. It seems that way.

BORGER: Yes.

BALDWIN: And let me play one more clip from this Joe Biden interview with Don.

So, Don also asked him about former New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg, former Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick entering this race.

This is what the former vice president said:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There are some folks who have recently got in this race. They don't think you're in shape, and they say they got in the race because they don't think you're in shape. One of them is Mayor Bloomberg.

BIDEN: Come on.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Go on.

BIDEN: Come on.

No, I'm saying, come on. I'm -- I welcome the competition.

LEMON: He's saying that -- someone in his campaign said -- or someone said, specifically, he has specific concerns about your ability to carry this through to the finish line.

What do you say about that?

BIDEN: Watch me. Watch me.

The idea that I'm not in better shape than Mayor Bloomberg, physically and otherwise, look, this -- Trump is so bad as a president and so corrupt as a president that everybody in America who's ever been involved in politics, especially if they have a billion dollars, thinks they can beat Trump.

LEMON: Yes.

BIDEN: Maybe they could.

And so what do you have to do? I'm the guy sitting at the top of the pyramid. I get it. I'm a big boy. Never complain, never explain.

LEMON: Well, Deval Patrick is there too. He doesn't have a billion dollars.

BIDEN: No, he doesn't. But I noticed they showed him the other day.

He went down to -- he went -- anyway, he went down to Morehouse, and there was -- had all these hundreds of seats, and no one showed up.

LEMON: Yes.

BIDEN: So, look, I like Deval. I really do. He's a good guy. And he's a solid guy.

But I think this is about deciding who is ready on day one...

LEMON: Yes.

BIDEN: ... to unite this country and demonstrate that they could, and, number two, who in fact can be ready on day one to be commander in chief?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, obviously, Joe Biden is saying, listen, no matter what, bring it on, I'm going to take this thing home.

But my question to you is, is a Mike Bloomberg or a Deval Patrick, are those viable options for Americans who are not totally sold yet on a Joe Biden ticket?

BORGER: Well, I think -- I think that's the challenge for Biden.

He clearly hasn't made the case yet. You see that he's up and down in the polls. You see that he's -- he's lost a lot of traction in a place like Iowa to Pete Buttigieg.

And I think that Deval Patrick and Bloomberg getting in is what Don was saying, which is that they don't believe that Biden can take the fight to Trump.

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm.

BORGER: And what Biden is saying is: Yes, test me out. I can.

I think, from all the candidates who've been running, you can understand that there's a little bit of, what are you doing getting in at this point? We have been out there for so many months...

BALDWIN: Sure.

BORGER: ... killing ourselves out there in Iowa, New Hampshire.

But I think it is an insult to Biden. And I think he took it that way. And he pointed out, of course, that Bloomberg has a billion dollars, at least, to spend. And that's -- that's hard to fight.

And Deval Patrick, he gave Don a little, well, he didn't have a lot of people at Morehouse when he was speaking there.

So it's very clear to me that Biden is taking these two folks very seriously.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Gloria, great to have your insight, as always. Good to see you.

BORGER: Sure.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

BORGER: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And, to everyone, please tune in to watch Don's entire interview with the former vice president on "CNN TONIGHT" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Still ahead, a closer look at what's happening behind the scenes in the Republican Party. I will talk to an impeachment historian about why no one in the GOP seems willing to break ranks.

Plus, the potential lasting damage this whole episode has done to the State Department and America's standing abroad. My next guest says the U.S. is in real danger.

And, later, major fallout for Prince Andrew in the wake of that BBC interview about his ties to Jeffrey Epstein -- details on the latest organizations cutting ties to the prince.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. It is Friday. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:47] BALDWIN: We're back with the breaking news this afternoon, John Bolton getting slammed for refusing to testify before House lawmakers, but he does have a thing or two to say on Twitter after tweeting for his followers to stay tuned for the -- quote -- "backstory."

[15:15:00]

The president's former national security adviser then sent more tweets blaming the White House for keeping him off Twitter, asking -- quote -- "Out of fear of what I may say?" he asks.

Bolton is one of a handful of figures who could provide the kind of evidence Republicans say they're clamoring for, direct firsthand knowledge. But the White House has ordered Bolton and others who failed to appear not to testify.

CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider can shed more light on how central Bolton is on this whole impeachment investigation and, of course, others.

So, talk to me, Jessica, about what Bolton knows and who else could have that firsthand information.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right.

So, Brooke, Bolton just one of those, a number of potentially key players all here refusing to testify, even though Republicans have complained about the lack of witnesses with firsthand knowledge.

So, first to John Bolton, the former national security adviser. He tops that list. Now, he has not been subpoenaed. And he's not testifying for now, but his lawyer has actually asked a federal court to determine whether national security officials could be compelled to appear. That hasn't been decided yet.

But what we do know about John Bolton, he was in that July 10 meeting with Ukrainian officials, and that he abruptly ended the meeting when E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland mentioned that any White House meeting between Trump and the Ukrainian president would only happen if investigations began. That was the testimony of former top Russia adviser to the White House Fiona Hill, who we heard from in public yesterday.

Now, Hill also said that Bolton told her to report that rogue effort by Rudy Giuliani and Mick Mulvaney to the National Security Council lawyer, John Eisenberg. And Bolton reportedly also said, "I am not part of whatever drug deal Rudy and Mulvaney are cooking up."

So that brings us to acting Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney. He could really be a key witness here, but he is refusing to comply with a subpoena. He's obeying White House directions not to testify.

But his testimony, it could be crucial, since Bill Taylor testified that a representative from the office that oversees federal spending specifically said during a secure conference call that Mulvaney, at the direction of the president, was really the one who decided to freeze that military aid to Ukraine.

And, of course, it was just last month that Mulvaney in the White House Briefing Room, in front of cameras, admitted there was a quid pro quo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: But to be clear, what you just described is a quid pro quo. It is, funding will not flow unless the investigation into the -- into the Democratic server happened as well.

MICK MULVANEY, ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We do -- we do that all the time with foreign policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So Mick Mulvaney seeming to admit it there.

He later, though, issued a statement trying to walk back what he said in front of the cameras, saying his comments were somehow misconstrued.

Next, there's John Eisenberg. He's the national security lawyer who was warned by Fiona Hill and Lieutenant Colonel Alex Vindman on some of those inappropriate demands on Ukraine that they believed were being made.

In fact, you will remember Vindman testified that Eisenberg told him not to discuss the July 25 call between Trump and Zelensky. And, also, Eisenberg and other NSC lawyers, they actually moved the transcript of that July 25 call to a secure server. That's something that isn't typically done for presidential phone calls.

Now, NSC official Tim Morrison, though, he testified that the transcript was moved to the highly classified server by mistake. In fact, Eisenberg allegedly told Tim Morrison that his executive secretary mistakenly put it there.

And that brings us finally to Rick Perry. He is leaving his post as energy secretary very soon. He's been described by officials who have testified as one of those three amigos when it came to Ukraine policy. That's along with Gordon Sondland and former special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker.

Perry, crucially, also attended that July 10 meeting with Ukrainian officials. But Perry has denied that the Bidens were ever mentioned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF ENERGY: I probably have had as expansive a relationship with Ukraine as anybody in the administration, certainly at the Cabinet level.

Not once -- as God as my witness, not once was a Biden name, not the former vice president, not his son, ever mentioned. Corruption was talked about in the country, but it was always a relatively vague term of the oligarchs and this and that and what have you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: And when it comes to Perry, it has been reported by Axios that the president told House Republicans he only made that July 25 phone call that sparked this whole impeachment inquiry at the urging of Rick Perry.

Now, interestingly, Perry in an interview this week with FOX News has said he never heard the word Burisma, possibly code for Bidens, come from Rudy Giuliani or the president. And Perry and there's no way that President Trump will be convicted by the Senate and removed from office.

[15:20:05]

So, Brooke, this is a small list. It's just some of the key officials who could give that key testimony, but refusing to testify -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, key word could.

Jessica, thank you very much.

Harry Litman is a former deputy assistant attorney general and a former U.S. attorney.

So, Harry, good to have you back.

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, thanks. Good to be here.

BALDWIN: All right, impeachment. So this investigation is eight weeks' old. Let me just run through some of the top lines. Then I want your thoughts.

So we have heard publicly from 12 witnesses, one of them Gordon Sondland, confirming quid pro quo and implicating the president, the vice president, the acting chief of staff, and the secretaries of energy and state.

But Sondland also said that he never heard those words directly from the president. And then the people, Harry, who have had direct contact with the president, a Jess just ran through, are refusing or being blocked from testifying.

So where are we today?

LITMAN: Yes, I think that's largely true.

But, look, there was an avalanche of facts that I think really left no real doubt as to the factual account, but nevertheless the avalanche comes down, and as best we can tell, that Republicans want to just stay the course and sort of blinker reality on it. On your -- on the points of these missing witnesses, they do want to

have it both ways. They want to say they can't come forward, but they want to tease the notion that this is where the real information would be.

And Bolton, in particular, as Gloria was just mentioning, seems to be playing footsie, for lack of a better word, with wanting to come forward. There is going to be a court decision on Monday that's very likely to go against the administration, against the sort of claim that Bolton would be relying on.

It would give him at least an excuse to come forward. My best sense is, he doesn't want it, and he won't avail himself of it.

But I think the Democrats are doing the -- whatever -- the only prudent thing. They are going forward with the evidence they had, which was pretty full-bodied, and on the other hand constructing a separate count from all this non-cooperation -- exactly the same thing happened in Watergate -- for the obstruction or contempt of Congress that the administration is showing by saying, we just won't play ball. We don't care what your constitutional responsibilities are.

BALDWIN: You mentioned a possible count. What would the counts or articles of impeachment look like?

LITMAN: Yes, as I see it -- and I think they're going to be drafting it this week -- there are going to be two or three.

I mean, I think they have really determined to stay out of anything other than Ukraine. There was some sentiment for trying to wrap in previous episodes. But I think Ukraine itself will be possibly two different counts, one of malice administration of justice, the whole sort of just betrayal of the take care of clause, and one of flat-out bribery, which I think it's pretty straightforward under the law.

And, incidentally, the people that we have named still remain in some hot water for possible criminal culpability. So that that's the main event.

But then they will also tack on, I think -- and they should -- and, again, it's bolstered by what happened in Watergate -- a separate account for contempt of Congress for trying to bollocks up this very investigation by not letting people come forward on the basis of far- fetched legal theories.

BALDWIN: Let me -- last question for you.

LITMAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: I want to jump to this Peggy Noonan piece in "The Journal" this morning.

LITMAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: And so she writes about: "As to the impeachment itself, the case has been so clearly made, you wonder what exactly the Senate will be left doing. How will they hold a lengthy trial with a case this clear? Who exactly will be the president's witnesses, those who testify he didn't do what he appears to have done and would never do it?"

So, quickly, Harry, like, who would those people be? And what would the trial look like?

LITMAN: All indicate -- first of all, it's going to look like whatever Mitch McConnell wants it to look like. And that's pretty important.

But all indications are it's going to be the same kind of mix of suggestions about actual -- Hunter Biden and the like, misdirections, and then just assertions that we don't have direct evidence of people talking to Trump himself.

BALDWIN: Who's the character witness for President Trump?

(LAUGHTER)

LITMAN: Lindsey Graham.

BALDWIN: Wait. They just jumped in my ear, so I didn't hear what you said.

What did you say, Harry?

LITMAN: I said Lindsey Graham.

BALDWIN: You said Lindsey Graham? Yes.

LITMAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: OK.

Harry Litman, thank you so much.

LITMAN: Thank you, Brooke. Good to be here.

BALDWIN: Right now -- thank you.

Right now, we're getting video from a White House meeting on vaping, this as President Trump has waffled on whether to ban flavored e- cigarettes.

We're hearing the conversation was heated at times. So we will play that tape for you as soon as we get it.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:59]

BALDWIN: When it comes to Republicans speaking against the president, Texas Congressman Will Hurd, a known moderate, has not been shy in the past. He's not running for reelection.