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Allegations Surface that House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA) Met with Former Ukrainian Prosecutor to Get Political Dirt on Joe Biden; Former National Security Advisor John Bolton Tweets about Revealing Information Possibly Related to Impeachment Inquiry; Former New York City Mayor and Possible Presidential Candidate Michael Bloomberg Places Large Ad Buy; Senator Lindsey Graham Calls for Independent Investigation into Bidens and Ukrainian Company Burisma. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired November 23, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:27]

CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. It is Saturday, November 23rd. Good to have you with us, I'm Christi Paul.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Victor Blackwell. You are in the CNN Newsroom, and we're following major developments that could have an impact on the impeachment inquiry against President Trump.

PAUL: And new allegations that top House Intel Republican Devin Nunes went to Vienna to meet with a disgraced Ukrainian prosecutor and that he did so to dig up dirt on the Bidens.

BLACKWELL: The man Nunes allegedly met with was the same ex-Ukrainian prosecutor that Biden and other world leaders fought to get rid of because they say he was not fighting corruption enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICKY WARD, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: And who was fired in 2016 under pressure by many western leaders, including our then vice president, Joe Biden. He has an axe to grind against the Bidens. Viktor Shokin is the man who has claimed to have dirt on Joe and Hunter Biden. He has claimed to have evidence that Ukraine meddled in our election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: Plus new documents released last night by court order reveal the White House helped set up a phone call between Rudy Giuliani, President Trump's personal attorney, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. CNN's Marshall Cohen and Kristen Holmes on top of all these latest developments in these major stories. We're going to start first with Marshall who has more on Congressman Devin Nunes' trip to Europe. Marshall, good morning to you. What are you learning?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Good morning. As you mentioned, CNN reported last night this very critical development that the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes, did meet with this former Ukraine official, Viktor Shokin, in Vienna last year in search for dirt on the Bidens. Now that's all according to the attorney for a man named Lev Parnas, an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani. He's a Soviet-born American businessman who has been working with Giuliani over the past year to use those connections in Ukraine to try to get whatever information he can on the Bidens. He was indicted in New York. He is clearly in a tough spot and trying, as hard as he can, to make himself useful to investigators. So he and his lawyer are now saying that they have this critical information about Devin Nunes which, of course, could throw a wrench in the impeachment inquiry because Devin Nunes has been a key player in the impeachment inquiry. He was a fixture at the hearings in the past week, talking about some of these issues about the Bidens, about Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son. Let's take a listen to what he had to say this past week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): No conspiracy theory is too outlandish for the Democrats. You would think they would take some interest in Burisma, and you'd think they would be interested in Joe Biden. We need to subpoena Hunter Biden.

I think one of the mothers of all conspiracy theories is that somehow the president of the United States would want a country that he doesn't even like, he doesn't want to give foreign aid to, to have the Ukrainians start an investigation into Bidens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: OK, so you can see clearly from that, Nunes has a very strong interest in what Biden was doing in Ukraine. And apparently that was a topic of conversation between Nunes and this former prosecutor general of Ukraine. The guy's name is Viktor Shokin. And as you mentioned earlier, he was forced out of his job in 2016 because the U.S. and other western powers were saying he wasn't actually doing enough to crack down on corruption. It kind of undercuts some of the theories from Nunes and his colleagues.

CNN has tried aggressively to get a reaction, a comment from Congressman Nunes. I want to show you what he told our colleagues. He would not react to the story. He said that he will not be commenting in this lifetime or in the next lifetime, that he does not recognize any questions from CNN. So, clearly, it's a touchy subject for the congressman. And as Democrats continue moving on in the impeachment inquiry, starting to draft a report, you can bet that they will be talking about this in the coming weeks. It could have potentially huge implications. Guys?

BLACKWELL: Marshall, thank you. It's also important to, as I've said throughout this reporting, to consider the source, consider his circumstances, and the timing. Why now? If he knew throughout the entire proceedings over the last two weeks that this meeting had happened, why wait until after the last witness before the Intel Committee to come forward with this offering? Marshall Cohen, thanks so much. [10:05:06]

All right, now let's go for more on those emails released last night to Kristen Holmes. She's at the White House. What do you know? Kristen, good morning to you.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Victor. Well, this certainly casts a shadow of doubt, a large shadow of doubt over an argument that the White House was not aware of any of Rudy Giuliani's dealings in the Ukraine. So essentially -- let's break this down. Last night documents released about 100 pages of documents from the State Department. This was not done because they just wanted to do it. This was under a court order. We know that they have not been giving any documents over to the Intelligence Committee for the impeachment inquiry. So reluctantly in the 11th hour they released these documents to a nonprofit oversight committee.

Essentially what they show is that before Rudy Giuliani gave a packet of what he said was information that contained dirt against the Bidens that he talked to Mike Pompeo, the secretary of state, two times. So now we have a line of communication. The second time was actually arranged through the White House. Giuliani calling up President Trump's personal secretary and saying that he couldn't get in touch with the secretary of state. The White House then putting the two of them in touch.

So again, two big takeaways here, one, of course, being the White House clearly deeper, more into -- entrenched in what was going on between Giuliani and the Ukraine than they are saying. They of course have denied knowing about all of this. And two here, let's look at the secretary of state. He has really tried to distance himself from the entire inquiry, and particularly from Rudy Giuliani's dealings in Ukraine. He tried to get away from that packet of information when we know that was given to him. And now this really is bringing him back into all of this. And it's coming at a time where the ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, last week testified that Pompeo was involved in all of this. He said that all of the top advisers knew.

Now, Pompeo has reacted to that testimony. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you respond to Ambassador Sondland's evidence today that you directed him to coordinate Ukraine policy with the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani?

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: The second one is easy. I didn't see a single thing. I was working. Sounds like you might not have been. I was in meetings all day and haven't had a chance to see any of that testimony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Obviously, first of all, a reporter's job is to ask questions, so I'll just leave that there. But in addition to that, the U.S. special convoy to the Ukraine, Kurt Volker, did say in his testimony that Pompeo and Giuliani had talked. But he also said that the secretary of state did not always agree with what Giuliani was doing in Ukraine.

PAUL: All right, Kristen Holmes, appreciate you walking us through it. Thank you.

The Justice Department's report on the FBI's investigation into Russian interference in 2016, that is coming out soon.

BLACKWELL: Sources tell CNN that it will say the probe was properly launched, but lower level FBI officials made a series of mistakes, that Russia has engaged in a years-long campaign to shift the blame away from Moscow and on to Kiev. The report is also expected to say no evidence of politically motivated actions by former FBI director Jim Comey occurred.

Be sure to join Anderson Cooper for a look at the impeachment testimony. "The Impeachment Inquiry In The Words Of The Witnesses" airs tomorrow night at 8:00 eastern right here on CNN.

PAUL: Up next, President Trump's former national security advisor continuing his tear on Twitter this morning saying it's, quote, time to speak up. Who? And what exactly is he talking about there? Is this all part of an elaborate deep tease for the book that he's writing? We're going to talk about it. Stay close.

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[10:12:26]

PAUL: It's 12 minutes past the hour right now, glad to have you with us. Former National Security Advisor John Bolton is back on Twitter this morning with a new cryptic tweet, some might say. He writes this. "Let's get back to discussing critical national security issues confronting America. The threats are great and growing. The presidency and control of the House and the Senate will all be decided in less than one year. It's time to speak up again. #JohnBolton."

Now, his return to Twitter yesterday came after two months off the platform. And he claims the White House used software to block access to his account. The White House press secretary pushing back on that, suggesting his age may be to blame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't know a whole lot about it, but sometimes -- I'll use my father as an example -- somebody who is of an advanced age may not understand that all you have to do is contact Twitter and reset your password if you've forgotten it. So I'll just leave it at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: The back and forth between Bolton and the White House comes after Bolton's lawyer says his client has relevant information on Ukraine that hasn't been disclosed. He's also reportedly working on a book that's set to come out sometime before next year's election. So the question a lot of people are asking is what is this cryptic tweet from him, and why doesn't he just say what he wants to say?

Lauren Gambino, political correspondent for "The Guardian" with us now, and CNN legal analyst Ross Garber, who teaches impeachment law at Tulane Law School. Thank you both for being with us. I appreciate it. Lauren, first to you. Walter Shaub, the former director of the Office of Government Ethics, tweeted this out about Bolton just a short time ago. He said, "Here goes the shirker again teasing a book that will enable him to profit off his public service. Lacking the patriotism or guts of Fiona Hill, he wants to behave like his former boss and monetize service in the White House. Do not buy his book if he won't testify." What is the relevance of John Bolton if he's not going to speak to Congress?

LAUREN GAMBINO, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE GUARDIAN": Well, John Bolton has said he wants a court to compel him to testify. So he has sort of laid that as a marker of what will bring him before these investigating committees on Capitol Hill. But I think, like we just heard, there's going to be a lot of people who are really upset with John Bolton if he sort of dishes in this book that he's about to write, but he won't actually tell investigators and tell members of Congress what he knows, which is obviously very relevant to this investigation that they're piecing together. And now is the time for him to come forward, now is the time for that information to be taken into account as they write this report.

[10:15:05]

PAUL: Ross, chime in here, because if there's something relevant to this investigation, shouldn't he, it's his own duty and obligation, be making that known?

ROSS GARBER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Remember, not just relevant. He is the one who supposedly was so alarmed by what was going on, he told Fiona Hill to go talk to the White House lawyers about it. And what we don't know is whether he expressed his alarm personally to the president, which would be a key fact.

I've been sort of puzzling over this, and I think what may be going on is -- presidents from George Washington on have claimed executive privilege, and there's -- the White House and the Justice Department and through both administrations have maintained immunity from testifying. And that's what's been invoked here with respect to Bolton and other aides. And that's Congress compelling, compelling somebody to come in and testify.

On the other hand, what Bolton may be doing is drawing a distinction between compelling to testify on the one hand and voluntarily providing information on the other. And maybe that's what we're going to see, is outside of the congressional process Bolton coming forward with key information.

PAUL: But what good is that key information, say, if Democrats decide not to impeach?

GARBER: Well, it depends on when he does it. If he does it before the impeachment vote, the House can potentially take that into consideration. It's not like court where the rules of evidence apply and you have to be sworn in. The House can take into account information, and I think you're going to see that, outside of court. So if Bolton has information, probably now is a good time to come forward with it.

PAUL: OK, I want to get to some other news that we've been hearing today about Representative Devin Nunes. He's the top Republican, of course, or the top representative, rather, a Republican as well, on the House Intel Committee. And we have this new information from Lev Parnas, one of Rudy Giuliani's associates, who says he is willing to tell Congress that Representative Nunes met with ex-Ukrainian official Shokin to get dirt on Vice President Biden. So I want to play a little bit of what we've seen of Representative Nunes in the last couple of weeks here during these hearings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NUNES: Glad you're here. Really not glad you're here, but welcome to the fifth day of this circus. You are here today to be smeared.

We need to subpoena Hunter Biden and the whistleblower for closed-door depositions as well as relevant documents from the DNC. They are the actions of partisan extremists who hijacked the Intelligence Committee, transformed it into the impeachment committee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: So you take those scenes from the last couple of weeks juxtaposed with the new allegations that we're hearing today. Lauren, has Representative Nunes compromised himself here?

GAMBINO: That's certainly a question that's going to be asked. He sat there through this entire hearing. He is the ranking member so he has a lot of -- the most seniority on his side of the aisle. And he obviously had a lot to say about the Bidens, and we never knew this key detail, that he was actually interested in part of this effort to dig up dirt on the Bidens.

So I think with Mr. Parnas suggesting that he's willing to talk to the committee and testify, now you're going to have -- maybe they will take this into account. And I'm sure they want to hear what he has to say. There is a question as to maybe why he's coming forward now, hearing something going for the past two weeks publicly and long before that. So you do have to wonder why Lev Parnas waited till this moment after we saw Devin Nunes run for two weeks.

PAUL: Right. Ross, you do have to consider the source here, no doubt about it. But what is Nunes' responsibility at this point?

GARBER: I think we're going to find out from Representative Nunes probably very soon whether these meetings happened and what happened. But expect to see a lot of this over the next few weeks. The House has really rushed this investigation. Understandably they're trying to get it done before the heat of the presidential campaign. But what we're going to see over the next few weeks and probably months because of that is all sorts of other stuff coming out. And this is an example of it. I think we're going to get more information pretty soon about it, though.

PAUL: Lauren Gambino and Ross Garber, so grateful to have you both with us today. Thank you.

GAMBINO: Thank you.

GARBER: Good to see you.

BLACKWELL: When we come back, more on that damning accusation against one of President Trump's biggest defenders in Congress and his alleged role in personally trying to get dirt on the Bidens.

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[10:23:46]

NUNES: No conspiracy theory is too outlandish for the Democrats.

You'd think they would take some interest in Burisma and you'd think they would be interested in Joe Biden.

We need to subpoena Hunter Biden.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: That was Representative Devin Nunes during the past couple of weeks of impeachment hearings. The top Republican on the House Intel Committee over and over accused his Democratic colleagues of peddling conspiracy theories and refusing to subpoena Hunter Biden. But the latest allegations against Nunes could complicate his calls to investigate the former vice president and his son.

With me now, Republican strategist and president of Robinson Republic P.R. Brian Robinson, and Tara Setmayer, host of the podcast "Speaking Honestly with Tara," also she's a CNN political commentator. Welcome both.

BRIAN ROBINSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good morning.

BLACKWELL: Brian, let me start with you. If this allegation from Lev Parnas, and we have to always consider the source and the circumstance, I'll put that out as a preface first.

ROBINSON: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: If it's true that Representative Devin Nunes traveled to Vienna to meet with Shokin to dig up dirt on the Bidens, what we saw from Nunes for the last couple of weeks is, one, hypocritical, but a defense of not only the president but himself, is it not? [10:25:00]

ROBINSON: I don't know on its face that there's anything necessarily damning or scandalous about a leading Republican on the Intelligence Committee meeting with European officials about topics that we don't know what they were talking about. Even the accusation doesn't go too deep into it. It's just that he alleges that they met.

BLACKWELL: To dig up dirt on the Bidens.

ROBINSON: I used to work for a member of the Intelligence Committee in the House. I knew Tara back then. We were both in the House staffers. And they do a lot of things that we don't know about, and we're not supposed to know about, so we can't know what the topic of this conversation was. But what has Nunes said? He has said he's going to sue the media that have reported on this and alleged that he was out there digging up dirt on Biden. He hasn't said it to CNN directly, but he said it to other media. So he is denying this. And those are the facts that we have right now.

BLACKWELL: But the question was if it's true, Brian. If it's true, is this not, one, hypocritical? And is it not just bold-faced election tampering, getting, again, information from a foreign government to help in a U.S. election?

ROBINSON: Victor, I can't speculate on that. If someone committed something -- committed these allegations, we don't know. There's no use going down that line until we have more facts.

BLACKWELL: Pardon me while I'm writing down at 10:26 a.m., I can't speculate on that. We'll read that back when applicable.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Tara, to you. Is it not hypocritical and looking for information to meddle in a U.S. election?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course it is. Listen, Devin Nunes has already demonstrated that he has acted in bad faith. Remember when he was chairman of the Intelligence Committee he was running over to the White House at midnight meetings, briefing the White House on what was going on with the Mueller investigation and other things. They have been obsessed over conspiracy theories.

Dr. Fiona Hill, eloquently explained that what Devin Nunes and Trump and his enablers have been doing. They're engaging in Russian propaganda, and that she wishes they wouldn't do that. Every time he talks about Ukraine being involved in meddling in the 2016 election or CrowdStrike or even the idea of some kind of corruption with Vice President Biden and Burisma, all of this is part of a Russian security service propaganda campaign that -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- that Republicans and the president of the United States are willing co-conspirators in.

This is terribly irresponsible. Devin Nunes -- the fact that Lev Parnas is popping up everywhere and his hands, him and his partner, Fruman and Giuliani, their hands, dirty hands are all over this. And if it was in Vienna where the oligarch, Dmytro Firtash is, who is also fighting extradition to the United States over corruption charges, this is very troubling, and I hope that we get to the bottom of what the hell Devin Nunes is doing, spending taxpayer dollars, by the way, $63,000 for a four-day trip last December, to go and try to get dirt on a political rival for the president.

ROBINSON: We don't know that's what I was doing.

BLACKWELL: OK, Tara, let me stay with you. And again, his attorney has said that he is willing to testify before Congress. We'll see if that fits in the timeline that Democrats have set. We'll save that for the partisan conversation next block.

Tara, let me stay with you on this. Outgoing GOP Congressman, Texan, Will Hurd, said this this week during the wrap-up of the hearings. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. WILL HURD (R-TX): An impeachable offense should be compelling, overwhelmingly clear and unambiguous, and it's not something to be rushed or taken lightly. I have not heard evidence proving the president committed bribery or extortion. I also reject the notion that holding this view means supporting all the foreign policy choices we have been hearing about over these last few weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Tara, if Democrats couldn't convince Will Hurd, first, what's your reaction to that, and do you expect that Democrats will have convinced anyone, any Republican with this case?

SETMAYER: I was disappointed. Will Hurd had a lot of promise, as someone who was supportive of Will Hurd and seeing him as the potential future of the Republican Party. The fact that he is a former CIA officer, an intelligence officer, he knows better. He knows that the case is pretty clear that the president of the United States engaged in bribery and extortion, pressuring a foreign government to dig up dirt on a political rival. He knows this. But he's trying to thread a needle because clearly he wants a future in Republican politics, so he has to tote the Trump line. And it's very disappointing.

The fact that Democrats couldn't get someone like Will Hurd or Brian Fitzpatrick, who is another representative out of the Philadelphia suburbs, I think it just goes to show you how tribal this has become. Clearly, Republicans are uninterested in facts. The testimony was unequivocal that the president was involved in this conspiracy, in this bribery scheme. And the Republican Party needs to have a serious self-examination. Apparently, truth and facts don't matter anymore.

[10:30:10]

BLACKWELL: Brian, let me come to you. The case that Republicans on the Intel Committee have been making is that the president was doing his due diligence to protect U.S. taxpayers' dollars. This was all about corruption in Ukraine. Well, the Transparency International publishes its corruption perception index every year and ranks the countries based on transparency -- one, most transparent, 180 the most corrupt. Ukraine is 120 on that list from 2018.

I want you to take a look at the billions of dollars that the U.S. gave to countries below 120 -- $666 to Uganda, $714 million to Lebanon, $789 million to South Sudan near the bottom of the list. Where were the other top-down, no explanation, altered process holds for these other countries if this is purely about corruption?

ROBINSON: Look, I don't think that any of that keeps the president from asking about corruption in Ukraine. The bottom line here is bribery. You said bribery. What happened in this case? The money at stake went to Ukraine. The other issue was whether or not the president of Ukraine could get a meeting with our president, and he did. And there was no investigation done in return. That is the bottom line.

SETMAYER: Because they got caught.

ROBINSON: And that is why people like Will Hurd are saying that there's not enough here to impeach.

SETMAYER: They got though, Brian, come on.

ROBINSON: Here is somebody who is a CIA operative. He's a national defense expert. Even he sees nothing here.

BLACKWELL: We've got to wrap it there. Brian, Tara, thank you very much. Tara, thank you. Brian, you're going to be sticking around. We've got a little more to talk about. Christi?

PAUL: Yes, do stay around, because Michael Bloomberg just bought a ton of ad space, expensive ad space. A big clue that maybe he's finally announcing a run for president? That's more.

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[10:36:07]

BLACKWELL: Vice president Mike Pence has made an unannounced trip to visit the troops in Iraq. This morning he tweeted a few photos. We see the vice president there, his wife Karen, serving an early Thanksgiving lunch to service members. This is at the al Assad Air Force Base.

PAUL: During remarks to those troops there, he told them the White House was fighting for military pay raises, but blamed legislative inaction on partisan politics and congressional investigations. This visit is coming as the country is reeling from violent anti-government protests. Take a look at some of what we've seen. This has all been happening since October. In fact, just yesterday three people were killed and 26 were hurt after Iraqi security forces broke up protests in Baghdad.

Former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg just sunk a lot of money into TV ads.

BLACKWELL: A lot of money. So the question is, does someone spend $29 million on TV ads and then say, no, I'm not going to run for president? Joining us now, CNN politics and business correspondent Cristina Alesci. Cristina, what's it mean?

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Highly unlikely that someone would spend that much money and not run, to your point, Victor. These ads will feature some biographical information about Michael Bloomberg, even a stronger signal that he will jump into the race as soon as this week possibly before he spent on advertising that was just anti-Trump and didn't have him in it specifically.

But bigger picture here, this is a clear indication that Michael Bloomberg is making good on his promise to spend whatever it takes to beat Donald Trump. And based on my reporting and what sources are telling me, the $29 million in ad spend is just the beginning. Michael Bloomberg will spend more money.

This kind of spending, though, will draw fire from progressives like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Bernie Sanders in response telling us in a statement, quote, "I'm disgusted by the idea that Michael Bloomberg or any other billionaire thinks they can circumvent the political process and spend tens of millions of dollars to buy our elections. It's just the latest example of a rigged political system that we're going to change when we're in the White House."

Now, Michael Bloomberg here clearly making the political calculation that this kind of spending will help him way more than it will hurt him politically, and that's really for three reasons. One, he spent millions to get elected to mayor of New York City, and he did that successfully three times. Two, after he left the mayor's office, he spent billions of dollars of his own money to support Democratic causes like gun safety and climate change. And more importantly, he continues to spend even though he's going to possibly launch this presidential bid. He is spending on anti-Trump ads that don't have him in it. And he is spending on voter registration drives. These are signals to the Democratic Party that he is willing to do both, launch a potential campaign and also support their efforts, which diminishes the likelihood that Democrats could go after him. Victor, Christi?

BLACKWELL: Cristina Alesci for us there in New York, thank you.

ALESCI: Of course.

BLACKWELL: Still to come, Judiciary Committee Chairman Senator Lindsey Graham is now calling for an independent investigation into Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden's previous work in Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:43:26]

BLACKWELL: It's 43 minutes after the hour now. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham has asked the State Department for documents, those documents related to former vice president Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden's previous work in and with Ukraine. It appears he wants an investigation into them as well. Watch this from a couple of months ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what do you mean you want someone on the outside to investigate?

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC) SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want an independent investigator? Independent prosecutor? What are you talking about?

GRAHAM: I want somebody to look at whether or not there was a conflict of interest involved in Joe Biden asking for the Ukrainian prosecutor to be fired. I want somebody to look at whether or not the $1.5 billion being given to the Hunter Biden private equity account from China was on the up-and-up. Because --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I got that. I'm just asking who you think that somebody should be? Should it be your committee, for example? Should it be in the government?

GRAHAM: I don't want to turn my committee into a zoo like the House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: OK. Joining me to discuss is former south regional director for the Obama 2012 campaign, Tharon Johnson. Brian Robinson is back with us. Brian, what happened? I don't want to turn my committee into a zoo. I need an independent investigator. Is he bringing the zoo now?

ROBINSON: Look, I think we have to trust Lindsey Graham to some degree. This is not someone with a history of embarrassing himself. He's a former prosecutor. He knows what it means to collect facts for the prosecution, to make his case. If he thought going this direction was a circus, was a zoo, and today sometime later he's changed his mind and thinks that there's something there, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

[10:45:01]

One thing I keep seeing, Victor, from media reports is these accusations, these allegations about Bidens and Ukraine are unfounded, that there's no credible evidence to back up these. So what's the objection to having a Senate committee look at the facts so they can be founded or unfounded?

BLACKWELL: Three things. There's a wealth of independent reporting on the accusations that are made against the former vice president and his son. Second thing is you say that Lindsey Graham is not someone who has a history of embarrassing himself. The former vice president says that he's embarrassed for him. He said it last night here on CNN with Don Lemon. Third thing, it is Lindsey Graham himself said he didn't want to turn

his committee into a zoo because he didn't want to do this type investigation like what is in the House. So when you say trust Lindsey Graham, do we trust Lindsey Graham of November of 2019 or do you trust Lindsey Graham of September, 2019? He's saying very different things.

ROBINSON: What he's saying is -- what we can insinuate from this is that he knows more than he did then. Let's give him the benefit of that doubt. You've got to think that a Senate committee chairman is going to have sources that the rest of us don't have. And maybe one of those sources is from the White House, who knows? But the fact is if he is going this route, he probably has something.

BLACKWELL: Tharon, Brian is right on one point --

ROBINSON: I'm right on all my points.

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: All right, well, we've only discussed one so far. We have not seen the degree of chaos in the Senate that we've seen in the House, and we'll put that in the Russia investigation context. What do you think about this potential investigation?

THARON JOHNSON, FORMER SOUTHERN REGIONAL DIRECTOR, OBAMA 2012: Well, let's go back not even just two months ago. Let's go back to 2015 where you guys have shown a video of Lindsey Graham saying that Joe Biden is a wonderful American, he's so kind, how can you not like this guy? I think what happened, Victor, is that Lindsey Graham got a call from the president. And he said, hey, the pressure is mounting. I need you to investigate him. I know you've talked about how good of a man Joe Biden is and his family, talked a lot about his late son, Beau Biden, but I need you to basically do this investigation.

The second thing is that Lindsey Graham sees the canary in the coalmine here. He knows that he's going to be in a tough election in South Carolina. He's got two prominent candidates that on the Democratic side is going to run against him. So this is nothing but pure politics. How do you go on live television and say I don't want to create a circus, I don't want this in my committee, I want an independent investigation, and then the next two or three months and say I want to bring this into my committee?

So I think what you see is that the president and his folks know that he's going to get impeached in the house. This now is going to move to the Senate. And I think Senator Graham has been pressured by this president and other Republicans to complete this investigation.

BLACKWELL: Let's stay with you and the Democrats. You say that the president and folks in the White House know that he's going to be impeached in the House. Sources tell CNN that Democrats want to complete this by Christmas. There are eight working days scheduled in Washington between now and Christmas. First, that's a great schedule. Second, is that not rushed considering in just the last 18 hours what we learned from the release of documents from the State Department, from the reporting that Nunes, potentially this allegation he met with Viktor Shokin? Why are Democrats so hell-bent on that schedule? Are they sacrificing the full scope here?

JOHNSON: Victor, you may remember three or four months ago we were having a conversation in this very setting here, saying what are Democrats doing? Why is Speaker Pelosi waiting so long to proceed with the impeachment inquiry hearings? So what they did is they methodically waited to make sure they had enough evidence. But when the Ukraine evidence presented itself, I think that was the move forward for Democrats to say, OK, we have enough now to begin these hearings.

I believe that eight legislative days is enough time to look at the new information that's been presented to us by Representative Nunes, but also, we had credible witnesses. All these witnesses, all these people who, by the way, are trained diplomats, they're not partisan, they're trained people to be nonpartisan to protect the homeland and to do their job, came forward, and they all can't be lying, Victor.

BLACKWELL: I get it. But what's the -- and I understand that Democrats believe that. What is the goal here?

JOHNSON: The goal --

BLACKWELL: Is the goal just to offer this information to the American people to set up 2020? Or do Democrats really believe that he should be removed from office? And if that is the goal, why not push forward on getting Bolton, on getting Kupperman, on some of the subpoenas to get more witnesses that maybe sets up a stronger case when it goes to the Senate?

JOHNSON: The goal is for these members of Congress to uphold the oath in which they took, that is that if there's credible evidence out there by any member of Congress, any senator or president, to make sure that it's thoroughly vetted, make sure that it's transparent, and make sure that the American people have a full comprehensive reason on why they think that this impeachment hearing should go on. So the timing is actually on the Democrats' side.

[10:50:00]

There's no political gain for them by trying to wait until January or February, even doing it in December. I think it's a promise made and a promise kept by the speaker, by the chairman of this committee to basically make sure that the American people get all the information they deserve.

BLACKWELL: We've got to wrap it there. Brian, I can tell by your facial expression you want to get in, but we've got to go.

ROBINSON: It's an election year. Let's just have an election. This is ridiculous.

JOHNSON: It's about governing.

BLACKWELL: We've got to wrap it. Brian, Tharon, thank you both. ROBINSON: Thank you, Victor.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Christi?

PAUL: I think that was the quickest wrap I've ever heard from Brian. Nice job.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Thank you, gentlemen.

People in Portland, Oregon, saw a giant fireball in the sky. What police are saying about this.

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PAUL: There are a lot of women in abusive situations that have pets they love and they don't want to leave them behind if they want to get out of that relationship, but only three percent of domestic violence shelters accepts animals. So one of this year's Top Ten CNN Heroes came up with a solution to keep women and their pets together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACI ALONSO, CNN HERO: Noah's Animal House is built right on the campus of the women's shelters, so that women fleeing an abusive relationship don't have to choose between leaving and leaving their pets behind. We have had clients from 21 states. They are driving thousands of miles. And that tells you the need and that tells you the power of the relationship between the woman and the pet when you watch the woman come through the doors and then they see their pet.

[10:55:10]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I missed you!

ALONSO: And everything is right in the world for a little while.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: To vote for Staci or any of your favorite top ten heroes, please go to CNNheroes.com, and thank you for doing so.

BLACKWELL: People in Portland, Oregon, they thought they were witnessing a plane crash when this giant fireball appeared in the sky. No crash, though. Look at this. Polk County Sheriff's Office says they think this was a meteor. They sent a helicopter to go look for it, but they didn't find anything, and actually are still looking for something.

PAUL: They're still investigating.

BLACKWELL: Yes. I guess if I saw a ball of fire falling from the sky, I wouldn't think meteor first. I'm just surprised they haven't found anything.

PAUL: They haven't found something, because that's pretty darn close before it's going to kind of dissipate you'd think, right?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

PAUL: All righty. Thank you so much for watching. We love to hear from you. Please go ahead and tweet us @Christi_Paul and @VictorBlackwell, the one in the fabulous suit today.

BLACKWELL: Thank you. You look great, too.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Thank you.

We hope you make some good memories today.

BLACKWELL: CNN Newsroom with Martin Savidge is in for Fredricka Whitfield up next.

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