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White House Helped Arrange Call Between Giuliani And Pompeo Following Handover Of Unproven Allegations On Bidens; Indicted Giuliani Associate Willing To Testify GOP Rep. Nunes Went To Europe For Biden Dirt; House Disregards Expert Warnings That Debunked Ukraine Theory; Sanders Attacks Bloomberg For Placing Over $30 Million In TV Ads; Joe Biden Talks To Don Lemon About New Candidates In Race; Georgia Lawmakers Seek Hate Crimes Legislation After Teen Plot On Black Church; Trump Supporters In Florida Weigh In On Impeachment; All Of Trump's Lies. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 23, 2019 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:00:09]
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello there. Thanks for joining me. I'm Martin Savidge in for Fredricka Whitfield. New developments this hour in a story you heard first on CNN. We are learning the lawyer for one of Rudy Giuliani's indicted associates, says his clients now willing to testify to Congress about meetings he says happened between ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee.
That's Devin Nunes, and a disgraced Ukrainian prosecutor, the topic of discussion, digging up dirt on Joe Biden and his son. We're also getting new details about how involved the White House was in facilitating Rudy Giuliani shadow diplomacy in Ukraine. According to newly released documents, the White House helped arranged a phone call between Giuliani and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
Their phone call happened in March right after Giuliani delivered a packet of information, including unproven claims against the Biden's. CNN's Marshall Cohen has details about this potential new testimony from indicted Giuliani associate Lev Parnas. And Marshall, what do we know about the claims that he make?
MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER Well, Martin, this was a story broken last night by our colleague Vicky Ward. And we're hearing that the lawyer for this man, Lev Parnas, who is an associate, a businessman connected to Rudy Giuliani. They are claiming that they will testify under oath in front of Congress if they're invited. And they'll say that Devin Nunes, the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, traveled to Vienna last year to meet with a man named Victor Shokin, who was the former top prosecutor of Ukraine who has been dangling alleged dirt about the Biden's for about a year now.
Although many of his allegations have been discredited. Now, Nunes is not exactly a stranger to this topic. He has been ramping up the alarm repeating claims about the Biden's over and over at these congressional hearings this past week. Let's take a listen to what he's been saying at the House Intel Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): No conspiracy theory is too outlandish for the Democrats, you would think they would take some interest in Burisma. And you think they would be interested in Joe Biden, we need to subpoena Hunter Biden. I think one of the mothers of all conspiracy theories is that somehow the President of the United States would want a country that he doesn't even like, he doesn't want to give a foreign aid to have the Ukrainians started investigation into Bidens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: So Martin, you know, you hear there that he's accusing Joe Biden of wrongdoing and he's accused the Democrats of trying to collude with Ukraine, but it's possible now, it's possible that he was trying to do some digging of his own over there.
SAVIDGE: Right. And have we heard from Congressman Nunes about all of this?
COHEN: Well, Congressman Nunes was not willing to give a comment to CNN, he rebuffed all of our requests. He did give denial overnight to the right-wing publication, Breitbart, which is very friendly with the Trump White House. Now, Martin, I want to make it clear these allegations are coming from Lev Parnas who is indicted, he's, you know, looking for a way --a way out of those criminal charges.
He's now dangling this as a possibility of some testimony that he could provide. We did check congressional records of Devin Nunes' travel and it indicates that he was in Europe around the time of when he was said to be in Vienna. It doesn't list the country, but it does say he was in Europe. So there's still a long way to go on this, Martin. We'll see where it all ends up. But this is what we know right now.
SAVIDGE: Yes. Interesting. Marshall Cohen, thanks. All right. And then we have this, last hour, President Trump's personal attorney has not responded to the alleged -- excuse me, alleged meetings between Congressman Nunes and former Ukraine Prosecutor Viktor Shokin. Here's what Rudy Giuliani said about the situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Devin Nunes says he didn't meet with Shokin. I have no reason to believe that he did. In fact, if he did, it would have been nothing wrong with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GIULIANI: He should have met with Shokin. Shokin had relevant evidence of massive corruption in the Ukraine that was being covered up by the ambassador, being covered up by the State Department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. GIULIANI: And not being investigated by the FBI or the Justice Department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: All right. Joining me now, Jackie Alemany. She is the author of "The Washington Post's" Power Up. And David Rohde, he's the executive editor of the New Yorker Web site and CNN Global Affairs Analyst. Welcome to you both.
DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Thanks.
SAVIDGE: Jackie, let me start with you. Rudy Giuliani is saying he never heard of this apparent meeting and I'm wondering do you buy it?
JACKIE ALEMANY, POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, as we've seen over the past, really, six months now, Rudy Giuliani. The President's personal attorney is not the most credible witness right now. And his stories have been all over the place.
[13:05:01]
ALEMANY: His, you know, various hits on Fox News and has investigators are still, you know, haven't even really made a push to have him come in and testify. But the CNN reporting that your colleague Vicky Ward did appears to be pretty bulletproof. You know, especially with you guys checking the record, Nunes' congressional records, that he actually did make a trip that he -- where he did not disclose the actual details but it did align with the timing that Vicki Ward reported.
Nunes' response as well is pretty telling, saying only that he would never talk to CNN or answer any questions in this lifetime or the next lifetime. And, you know, Giuliani, at the end of the day wouldn't necessarily have had knowledge of this. Nunes seemed to have been running his own parallel shadow investigation into the Bidens, so, you know, I think we need to take everything that Rudy says especially Fox News with a grain of salt.
SAVIDGE: Well, David Giuliani did say that Nunes should have met with Shokin. And I'm wondering is that how these kind of investigations work? Should the ranking member of the powerful House Intelligence Committee really get involved with foreign figures like this?
ROHDE: Well, what's unusual is that -- if I understand this correctly, this is a taxpayer funded trip to Europe. And if he's trying to investigate and sort of smear Joe Biden, that's a political activity. So again, you have, you know, the President and his allies, seeming to use American government resources to, you know, pursue these conspiracy theories. And again, the broad issue here is that all the witnesses all this week, said that what Rudy Giuliani, you know, said in that clip was false.
That, you know, there isn't this massive amount of corruption involving Joe Biden going on in Ukraine and this was simply an editor -- I'm sorry, an effort to, you know, spread and traffic conspiracy theory about Joe Biden. So again, I'm not sure on the legalities here, but I don't think this is a taxpayer funded, you know, activity, again for Nunes to go dig up dirt about, you know, the President's political rival on 2020.
SAVIDGE: Speaking of theories and debunked ones of that, I want to turn to something we continue to hear from Republicans and that is that Ukraine may have interfered in the 2016 elections, not Russia. It has been pervasive narrative during the impeachment hearings. But now, we're learning that the U.S. intelligence officials are actually briefing senators or were earlier this fall about that conspiracy theory and how it was propagated by Russia to sort of pass on the blame.
And I'm -- Jack, you know, Jackie, I'm wondering if that's the case, why are so many in the Republican Party still pushing this idea?
ALEMANY: I mean, at the end of the day, I do think this is about sort of making an attempt to hold on to power. You know, what was interesting about Vicki's reporting especially was that Nunes' plan to this trip to Vienna to meet with Viktor Shokin after Republicans lost their majority in the House and how to wipe out during midterms. And decided that, you know, going after Biden would be helpful going forward.
I think that if we look at Dr. Fiona Hill's testimony this week, she did the best job of really cutting through a lot of the conspiracy theories, saying that it is in Russia's interest to have the U.S. believe this information that Ukraine was meddling in the election. She also went even further after Nunes sort of pushed back against her opening statement and said, yes, you know, there were diplomats around the world who questions Trump who had jumped -- who had, you know, bet on the wrong horse.
Who thought -- assumed Hillary Clinton was going to be the president and we're sort of, you know, placing their bets on her. So, you know, pointing to negative tweets didn't necessarily indicate that there was a, you know, a campaign against Donald Trump by the Ukrainians to meddle in the election. And that, you know, what Russia was doing was a top down effort, you know, mandated by Putin to interfere in the U.S. elections and nothing Ukraine did amounted to anywhere close to that.
SAVIDGE: And I'm glad you have brought her up because I just want to play some of the sound of the testimony she gave. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FIONA HILL, FORMER TRUMP TOP RUSSIA ADVISER: Some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country, and that perhaps somehow for some reason Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: David, explain how damaging can be or is it to repeat this propaganda, this narrative over and over? How damaging could it be to our democracy?
ROHDE: Well, this is a victory, you know, for Russia. Their goal, they did a Trump in the election but their goals divisiveness and confusion and Americans not being sure, you know, what really happened. And that kind of undermines the quality of American democracy here. It undermines the image of the U.S. abroad and it aids Russia.
[13:10:07]
ROHDE: So again, I just completely agree there was a massive Russian effort to aid Trump, there was a sporadic thing with some Ukrainians writing some op eds, but for political reasons Republicans are embracing this narrative. They don't -- and the sad breakdown is they don't believe, you know, the assessment or appear to believe of American intelligence agencies.
And that's very dangerous for American democracy because there are threats of this country, you know, there needs to be a certain level of trust, you know, between the intelligence agencies and career officials and Republican politicians, so --
(CROSSTALK)
SAVIDGE: Right. It could be that they believe the information but it's politically expedient to ignore it.
ROHDE: Yes. And it's -- it helps. It helps them politically and it's -- and in the American, you know, public I worry just kind of tunes out an apathetic American public that kind of doubts that politics matters and they don't vote as much.
SAVIDGE: Yes.
ROHDE: That's what Russia wants also.
SAVIDGE: All right, David Rohde and Jackie Alemany, thank you both for joining me today.
ALEMANY: Thanks, Martin.
RODHE: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: And coming up, inside a smear campaign what new documents reveal about Rudy Giuliani's conversations with Mike Pompeo? And the President's lawyer's efforts to dig up dirt on the Bidens. Plus, what will John Bolton do next? The former Trump official makes big announcements on Twitter while leaving one key question unanswered.
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[13:15:05] SAVIDGE: One day after he said that his Twitter account was liberated from unfair White House suppression former National Security Advisor John Bolton promoting his political action committee on Twitter. Moments before Bolton posted that promotion he tweeted this which is somewhat cryptic. Let's get back to discussing critical national security issues confronting America. The threats are grave and growing.
The presidency in control of the House and the Senate will all be decided in less than one year. It is time to speak up again. CNN National Correspondent Kristen Holmes joins me now from outside the White House. Kristen, what should we take from Bolton's tweets over these past 24 hours?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martin, we -- Bolton knows that everyone is watching him very closely. He's clearly seizing this moment, and really trying to control the narrative. And here's why. For the past two weeks, we have her witness after witness and these public hearings really put John Bolton at the center of this impeachment inquiry and making him a critical witness.
He was in meetings with Ukrainian officials. He ended meetings early with Ukrainian officials because he was uncomfortable. One aid saying that he actually met privately with President Trump to try and get him to release this aid. So clearly, they're knowing information that no one else could possibly have. And Bolton has not testified the reason being that his lawyer says he'll only testify if a court orders him to.
Democrats essentially choosing time over information. They said that taking it to court will just take too long. Remember, we've been talking about the fact that they want their side of this impeachment inquiry that vote to be over, hopefully, by Christmas and they know if it got tied up in the courts, it would take a very long time and probably much longer than that. Then Christmas time.
So when we look at this here, Bolton is kind of teasing himself. He's putting himself out there and this reemergence might actually change Democrats' minds. And as you said, a lot of these messages they are incredibly cryptic. But I want to know one thing that could also change his mind. It might not just be Democrats who are looking at this, but also the secretary -- or excuse me, the former national security adviser and that was Fiona Hill's testimony.
I know you were just talking about this. Fiona Hill was an aide to Bolton and it appears from their testimony that they were fairly close. And at one point, during her testimony, she seemed to imply that Bolton should testify, she said that anyone who had any knowledge or anything that was considered important here had a legal and a moral obligation to testify, and clearly Bolton would fall into that category.
SAVIDGE: And I remember her saying that, yes. Kristen Holmes. Thank you very much for joining us. And still ahead. 12 witnesses testified in the impeachment hearing. Now it's time for lawmakers to take the very next step. Find out what is in the works now. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:21:57]
SAVIDGE: First on CNN. And indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani says he's willing to testify that Congressman Devin Nunes, the top Republican on the House Intel Committee went to Vienna last year to dig up dirt on Vice President Joe Biden. And to push a conspiracy theory that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 presidential election. That theory is categorically false. The key witness in the impeachment hearings dismiss that idea as Russian propaganda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Some of you on this committee appear to believe that Russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country, and that perhaps somehow for some reason Ukraine did. This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Joining me now to discuss is Kim Whaley. She is a former assistant U.S. attorney, a law professor and a constitutional scholar. She's also author of the book, How To Read The Constitution And Why. I have been reading the constitution a lot these days. Kim, thank you very much for joining us.
KIM WHALEY, AUTHOR, HOW TO READ THE CONSTITUTION AND WHY: Happy to be here.
SAVIDGE: So, you believe that there is enough evidence to move forward with the articles of impeachment. And I'm wondering how might this new revelation perhaps impact at a senate trial?
WHALEY: Well, it impacts it because it certainly suggests that Devin Nunes has not been forthcoming with the inquiry, the process in terms of his apparent potential conflict of interest. In addition, he's been making speeches at the beginning of every day of the impeachment hearings attacking the Democrats for false hoods for, you know, positing suggestions that there's some kind of conspiracy with a whistleblower, et cetera.
This really suggests that he's actually potentially the one who's in this -- the hypocritical seat. And it's really more I think a political problem than it is a legal problem for the Republicans and particular, because the Republicans so far don't have a counter narrative on the facts of what happened. The defense essentially is sure this happened. It doesn't matter. And perhaps that's what Mr. Nunes is -- this this revelation suggests as well, they just don't care.
SAVIDGE: Uh-hmm. The attorney for Lev Parnas says that his client is willing to comply with a Congressional subpoena for documents and testimony as part of the impeachment inquiry in a manner that would allow him to protect his Fifth Amendment rights against self- incrimination. Do you actually see that testimony happening?
WHALEY: Well, it's interesting that his lawyer would make that statement publicly, generally, that kind of negotiation happens behind closed doors. So it's difficult to, I think, speculate as to what the lawyer strategy would be here. Clearly, he needs to protect her, she needs to protect his clients Fifth Amendment interest. It's possible that the lawyer is looking for some kind of a deal with the government.
I will -- we will cooperate with this broader investigation, this broader inquiry with Congress in exchange for some kind of leniency. But of course, the criminal arm of it is handled by the Justice Department under -- basically the management of Bill Bar whereas Congress is -- in this moment and the House is managed by the Democrats.
[13:25:07]
WHALEY: So it's really difficult to I think parse out where the -- where -- what could be going on behind the scenes.
SAVIDGE: And doesn't, you know, if this witness would ask for some sort of favor in return legally. Does that make it kind of skeptical then potentially the information?
WHALEY: Well, that's a pretty typical thing in the criminal context that -- listen, I, you know, I've got -- I, meaning criminal defendant have some sort of jeopardy but I will cooperate. We -- this happens a lot. Of course, if Mr. Parnas were to actually testify, given that he's under indictment, there would be cross examination on his credibility.
But if that were the case, if witnesses who so to speak flipped or cooperated with the government were not categorically or categorically perceived as somehow not credible, we would not have a functioning criminal justice system because it happens so often.
SAVIDGE: Right. I see your point. All right. Let's move on to this. Rudy Giuliani is once again, making the runs on television moments ago. He made a kind of veiled threat when asked if he's worried about the president, turning on him. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Have you talked to President Trump in the last week or two? Have you met with him? Are you still his counsel?
GIULIANI: I don't discuss -- I do not discuss my conversations with my client. You can assume that I talked to him early and often. Yes. And have a very, very good relationship with him. And all of these comments which are totally insulting.
HENRY: Yes.
GIULIANI: Yes. I mean, I've seen -- I've seen things written like he's going to throw me under the bus, right? When they say that, I say he isn't, but I have insurance.
HENRY: OK.
GIULANI: Ridiculous. We are very good friends. He knows what I did was in order to defend him not to dig up dirt on Biden. Just goes back a year ago before Biden hadn't even decided to run for president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Now, when Rudy Giuliani says he has insurance, I presume here he's talking about health insurance, but could it imply something else?
WHALEY: Right. You could -- it could imply that he has insurance that is -- he has some leverage in his relationship with Mr. Trump. The one piece of information that we did not see out of the 12 witnesses was someone who said I spoke directly with the President of the United States. And the President told me to tell Zelensky or to pressure the Ukrainians to make an announcement on an investigation into the Biden's or else they will not get the $400 million in aid.
No one testified to that particular conversation with the President. What they did testify to was that Rudy Giuliani was the conduit to the president, that the President directed them to speak through Rudy Giuliani. This, of course, is in the July 25. Call summary as well. The President said talk to Giuliani. So, Mr. Giuliani knows what the President's intent was, what the direct directive from the President was.
So he is a liability for the President. If it turns out that he cooperates and we know there is a criminal investigation of Mr. Giuliani. So this is something we -- that we need to stay tuned into to see how things progress with respect to that relationship.
SAVIDGE: We do indeed. Kim Whaley, thank you very much. Good to talk to you.
WHALEY: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: And for more on this week's developments on Capitol Hill, join Anderson Cooper for the impeachment inquiry and the words of the witnesses, which we will air tomorrow night. That will at 8:00 Eastern right here on CNN. Still ahead. Bernie Sanders on the attack. The move by a potential opponent that has been discussed.
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[13:37:32]
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN HOST: Right now, Senator Bernie Sanders is in New Hampshire where he's continuing his attacks against billionaire and potential presidential candidate, Michael Bloomberg.
You're looking at live pictures from the city of Franklin where Sanders is going after the former New York City mayor for placing over $30 million in TV ads. CNN's Ryan Nobles is in New Hampshire as well.
Ryan, what is the Senator saying about all of this?
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In many ways, Martin, this crystallizes the argument that Bernie Sanders has been making about the influence of money in politics. He's been railing for a long time about corporations funding big super PACs, getting together bundlers and pouring together money into presidential campaigns.
In this respect, with Michael Bloomberg's entry into the race, he is railing against one billionaire with a lot of money throwing all of his money into the race and trying to have an outsized influence on the political process.
He equates Bloomberg using his own money to money having too big of a role in politics.
Listen to what Sanders said a few minutes ago in Franklin, New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Mr. Bloomberg, to the best of my knowledge, has very little grassroots support but he has decided, because he's worth $55 billion, that he can run for president of the United States and spend more money on TV ads, I suspect, than any candidate in the history of the United States.
So what our job is, is to fight for democracy.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
SANDERS: Democracy means that billionaires cannot buy elections. Democracy means we move to public funding of elections.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOBLES: So what Sanders is trying to point out here is that the economic inequality problem he views as being a big problem in American politics has particulars has its root here. If someone like a Bloomberg or Tom Steyer, the other billionaire in the race, can throw a bunch of money into this campaign and then have an impact on the polls, that will only exacerbate that problem.
Sanders coming here to a place like New Hampshire, where the poverty rate is high, where they see the economic inequality in a real and tangible way, Sanders is saying, you need to elect someone like me and put someone like me in the White House if we have any hope in turning that around.
Martin, we'll have to see if that has an impact on the voters here in New Hampshire.
SAVIDGE: It could resonate.
Ryan Nobles, appreciate it very much. Thank you.
Meantime, we're hearing more from former Vice President Joe Biden in his exclusive and wide-ranging interview with CNN's Don Lemon. In it, Biden says he welcomes new candidates to the race, including billionaire, Michael Bloomberg.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[13:35:07]
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: There are some folks who have recently got in this race. They don't think you're in shape, and they say they got in the race because they don't think you're in shape. One of them is Mayor Bloomberg.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Come on.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Go on.
BIDEN: Come on.
No, I'm saying, come on. I'm -- I welcome the competition.
LEMON: He's saying that -- someone in his campaign said -- or someone said, specifically, he has specific concerns about your ability to carry this through to the finish line.
What do you say about that?
BIDEN: Watch me. Watch me.
The idea that I'm not in better shape than Mayor Bloomberg, physically and otherwise? Look, this -- Trump is so bad as a president and so corrupt as a president that everybody in America who's ever been involved in politics, especially if they have a billion dollars, thinks they can beat Trump.
LEMON: Yes.
BIDEN: Maybe they could.
And so what do you have to do? I'm the guy sitting at the top of the pyramid. I get it. I'm a big boy. Never complain, never explain.
LEMON: Well, Deval Patrick is there, too. He doesn't have a billion dollars.
BIDEN: No, he doesn't. But I noticed they showed him the other day.
He went down to -- he went -- anyway, he went down to Morehouse, and there was -- had all these hundreds of seats, and no one showed up.
LEMON: Yes.
BIDEN: So, look, I like Deval. I really do. He's a good guy. And he's a solid guy.
But I think this is about deciding who is ready on day one --
LEMON: Yes.
BIDEN: -- to unite this country and demonstrate that they could. And, number two, who in fact can be ready on day one to be commander-in- chief?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: If you want to see it all, CNN's full exclusive interview with Joe Biden airs today starting at 2 p.m. Eastern time.
And up next, a teenager accused of plotting an attack on a historically black church here in Georgia. How state lawmakers are fighting back against hate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:57]
SAVIDGE: Black lawmakers in Georgia say they want hate crime legislation for the state after police foiled an attack on a historically black church in the state.
Police say a 16-year-old girl had taken significant steps, including researching black churches, obtaining knifes, and had even visited the church she was targeting.
One church member said she was shaken by the news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANA RAMSEY, CHURCH MEMBER: What made her this way? What caused her to have such hatred in her heart? I wish she would have walked through the door and asked for help and then we would have received her with open arms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: With me now, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor, and Richard Herman, a criminal defense attorney and law professor.
It is wonderful to see you both, although not on this topic.
Avery, I was surprised to learn that Georgia is only one of four states in the country without hate crime legislation. Tell us why that's significant. AVERY FRIEDMAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's powerful because there's a
federal law. The federal law says, if the state can't handle a race hate crime, Marty, then they're going to come in.
Forty-six of the 50 states do have it. So when a legislature gets together and says, do we support race hate crimes, Georgia says, we haven't made a decision yet. That's outrageous.
Good for the legislators in Atlanta that are getting together and saying, it's time to come into the 21st century to make those laws stronger.
And that's what it's going to take. If this young woman is tried as an adult -- that's a big if, Marty -- there will be no Georgia law. The federal agents may be coming in to handle this case.
And with an institution like Bethel AME, that's an 118-year institution in Georgia. And, believe me, the congregants are very, very upset.
SAVIDGE: Of course they are.
Richard, here's the question. Does having separate hate crime legislation at the state level actually make a difference?
RICHARD HERMAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't think it does, Marty.
I think it's an embarrassment, by the way, for the state of Georgia not to have state hate crime bill or statute. That's just -- it's -- I don't know what their functioning or reasoning is but it's ridiculous and embarrassing.
But in the end, I don't think that's a preventive measure.
This is a 16-year-old girl, who is racist, who decided that, you know, she's going to try to attack black people in a church. I don't think she would ever have stopped and paused and say, oh, there's a state hate crime bill. I better not do this. No, she's mentally ill. There's definitely problems here with her.
Look, she was going to do it with kitchen knives. It wasn't like she had explosives, bombs, guns, shotguns, or A.K.-47s. She was taking kitchen knives.
The takeaway from all of this, Marty, is awareness. She told someone in school. They reported it. It went to law enforcement.
FRIEDMAN: That's right.
HERMAN: They arrested.
FRIEDMAN: Right.
HERMAN: They did a search warrant. They found her manifesto-type notebook. And they found her plans. And that's how it got uncovered.
That's the only way to prevent these things, public awareness of suspicious activity. That's the only way.
(CROSSTALK)
HERMAN: Not state hate crime bills.
SAVIDGE: It should have been brought forward from the very beginning, as we tell the story, that what happened was she was discovered because of someone who did see something and said something.
Avery, let me ask you this. The church member that wondered where she got this whole message, this feeling of hate, and yet, we've been seeing a rise of hate crimes across the country. How do we reverse that trend? No doubt she was, in part, informed through the Internet, I'm sure.
FRIEDMAN: No doubt. She's replicating the Dylann Roof matter from South Carolina. Very, very sick. It's coming from the Internet.
You're exactly right. Hate crimes have increased in America, especially murders. You have increase in hate crime groups also. How do you change that to get rid of a permissive environment where this is permitted? And that's going to require tough strong law enforcement.
[13:45:00]
But on the other hand, as you've heard that church woman say, sometimes you can battle this with love. And that means education and awareness. And, believe it or not, I've seen it work, Marty. You combine tough law enforcement and serious caring for other people, that's how you minimize it.
SAVIDGE: Richard, do you see this as an issue of free speech versus hate speech?
HERMAN: Oh, no. This is not free speech. This is -- she's being charged with attempted murder. It's pretty serious.
You can't -- you want to do all the free speech you want, but if it's in the occurrence of a crime or the planning to commit a crime, murder in this case and a hate crime, you know, you don't have that free speech. There's going to be consequences for it.
To answer your question you just asked Avery, maybe a new president who will bring together this country and stop the --
(CROSSTALK)
FRIEDMAN: That's a political argument.
HERMAN: -- maybe that's a way to start this, Marty. Maybe that's a way. Not state hate crime bills. That's not going to do anything.
SAVIDGE: Richard, this is a 16-year-old, as we mentioned.
HERMAN: Right. SAVIDGE: What happens to someone of that age when they are convicted
of something, as you pointed out, so serious as this?
HERMAN: Well, it depends if they try her as an adult or as a minor.
FRIEDMAN: Right. Exactly.
HERMAN: Here, she's being charged as a minor, so the sentencing is much less and, in some cases, the record can be expunged or it can be set aside. So there's a lot of benefits to be tried as a minor.
You may very well see the prosecution try to change this and try her as an adult so the penalties are much harsher and stick to her life.
FRIEDMAN: That's it, that's it.
SAVIDGE: Richard Herman and Avery Friedman, I always enjoy talking to you.
(CROSSTALK)
HERMAN: Miss you, Marty.
(CROSSTALK)
HERMAN: Happy Thanksgiving, man.
SAVIDGE: Have a great Thanksgiving.
FRIEDMAN: Happy Thanksgiving.
SAVIDGE: Thank you.
FRIEDMAN: Take care.
SAVIDGE: Up next, we'll visit the battleground state of Florida where voters are sounding off on the impeachment hearings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADISON CURRIN, REPUBLICAN VOTER: It's just a political show.
STEPHEN ENNIS, REPUBLICAN VOTER: It's just a waste of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:50:35]
SAVIDGE: After another week of public impeachment hearings wraps up in the nation's capital, you might expect outrage from Trump voters in Florida's deeply red panhandle. But most Trump supporters in the swing state of Florida tell me their interest in what's happening in Washington is pretty low.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Critics of President Trump may see the public impeachment hearings as damning and devastating for the president.
(on camera): But Trump supporters, not so much. This is the deeply red Panhandle in the key battleground state of Florida.
(voice-over): Trump voters we talked to say either they don't care or they aren't watching.
SAVIDGE (on camera): Have you been following the proceedings at all?
LAURA DUKES, REPUBLICAN VOTER: No, sir, I have not.
SAVIDGE (on camera): By choice?
DUKES: By choice.
ANDREW MCKAY, NEWSRADIO 92.3: Good morning, 7:18 here on NewsRadio 92.3 and AM 1620.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): You won't find conservatives angrily vetting on local talk radio, not even a Trump firebrand, Congressman Matt Gaetz.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): The training helicopter issue is one of the --
SAVIDGE: He takes calls for half an hour and only gets two on impeachment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CALLER: I want to see Congress get back to work on the people's business.
SAVIDGE: In Pensacola, pro- and anti-Trump protests draw fewer than 30 people, total.
(CHANTING)
SAVIDGE: What is history to others elsewhere is political ho-hum here.
JANE WILKINSON, REPUBLICAN VOTER: I did watch it the first day, a little bit.
SAVIDGE: She wasn't impressed. Instead, Jane Wilkinson was frustrated, calling the process biased and unfair.
WILKINSON: It's hard to watch it. In fact, I'm not watching it anymore.
DUKES: And I just think they're not going to change my mind, how I feel about him.
SAVIDGE: Whether it's an accusation of quid pro quo or bribery, no amount of witnesses or testimony, they say, will change their support for the president. CURRIN: It's just a political show. He hasn't done anything wrong. We've read all the information and we've looked at all the things that have occurred.
SAVIDGE: But, Democrat Bill Caplinger has been following the hearings closely. He's confident Trump voters will come around to what he sees as the president's crimes.
BILL CAPLINGER (ph), FLORIDA VOTER: Not all of them, but some of them.
SAVIDGE: Jane Wilkinson says Democrats shouldn't hold their breath.
WILKINSON: Well, for me, it's not going to change my opinion. But I feel like that is what they're thinking.
SAVIDGE: Stephen Ennis puts it in a nutshell why Trump supporters are so casual about impeachment. It's because they believe, for all the political sound and fury, in the end, none of it matters.
ENNIS: Democrats are obviously hell-bent to impeach the president and it's probably going to happen. It'll never go through in the Senate. The Senate will never vote that way. So it's just -- it's just a waste of time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: Instead of being angry about the impeachment hearings, Trump supporters I talked to seemed resigned to them, like the Mueller investigation. They say impeachment is something that they are forced to endure simply because they elected a president that others don't agree with.
On the heels of the impeachment hearings this week, CNN is taking a closer look at all of the president's lies. Our Jake Tapper talks with fact-checkers, historians, scientists and pundits to explore the national impact of Trump's many falsehoods.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITE STATES: It's a scam. It's a whole hoax.
Defeated ISIS.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): We all know he does it.
TRUMP: The whistleblower has been very inaccurate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Babe Ruth of lies.
TRUMP: Rgaaargh-aaargh.
Windmills, they say he noise causes cancer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a drug for him. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no president that lied as if it were a form of breathing, except Donald Trump.
TRUMP; Nobody's been more transparent than me.
TAPPER (voice-over): This isn't a transparent thing. He empirically says a number of things that are completely wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In recent months, it's been about 22 a day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump lies about every conceivable topic, from the weather, to the infamous shark bite. You can't make this stuff up.
TRUMP: Stronger, cheaper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To immigration and trade.
TRUMP: We're not paying for the tariffs. China is paying for the tariffs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's wrong.
TAPPER: We wanted to know, what is the impact of all of these lies.
In the U.S. --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Research shows that repetition increases the belief in false news.
TAPPER: On Capitol Hill --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president was a factor in my decision not to run again.
TAPPER: In science --
(on camera): What's at stake?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lives.
[13:55:01]
TAPPER (voice-over): And the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president stands up and basically says --
TAPPER: What a great outcome. Congratulations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no. That's not the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American credibility has been shredded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Most of what he says should probably be presumed to be false it's until proven to be true. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a conservative Republican. Never did I
imagine I would be pointing out the gross flaws of a Republican president.
JOHN KASICH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: People say to me all the time, what am I supposed to believe.
TAPPER: What should we believe? Who can we trust?
TRUMP: Just remember what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: Don't miss this special report, "ALL THE PRESIDENT'S LIES," airing Sunday at 9 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Hello. Thanks for joining me. I'm Martin Savidge, in for Fredricka Whitfield.
We'll begin this hour with new developments in the impeachment inquiry. Reported first on CNN, the lawyer for indicted Rudy Giuliani associate, Lev Parnas, now says his client is willing to testify about meetings that he says happened between Republican Congressman Devin Nunes and disgraced Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin.
Parnas is saying the meetings took place in Vienna last year.
CNN's Vicky Ward is here.
Vicky, you broke this story and you spoke with Lev Parnas, his lawyer, at least. I'm wondering, what more did they tell you?
[14:00:04]
