Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Allegations Surface That House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA) Met With Former Ukrainian Prosecutor To Get Political Dirt On Joe Biden; New Reporting Indicates Secretary Of State Mike Pompeo Tied To Rudy Giuliani's Efforts To Obtain Ukrainian Investigation Into Joe Biden; Former Vice President Joe Biden (D), Presidential Candidate, Gives Interview On Presidential Campaign And Criticisms Regarding His Age As Presidential Candidate; Senator Lindsey Graham Calls For Independent Investigation Into Bidens And Ukrainian Company Burisma; Secretary Of The Navy And SEALs Admiral Threaten To Resign If President Trump Interferes Trial Of SEAL Commando In War Crimes Case. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 23, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: I'm wondering what more did they tell you?

VICKY WARD, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: So Martin, they told me that last December, Devin Nunes, senior Republican presiding over these impeachment hearings, made a secret visit in December to meet with Viktor Shokin to basically find out what Shokin had on Joe Biden and any information he might have about this theory that has been debunked that Ukraine meddled in the U.S. election, and that on his return he had an aide reach out to Lev Parnas who was working on an investigation to also try and find dirt on the Bidens and election interference for Giuliani, and that basically the two groups merged, and that Nunes asked Parnas for help and asked him for introductions to government officials in Ukraine who could provide incriminating evidence possibly on the Bidens.

SAVIDGE: And obviously this is stuff we can verify or at least look into in some aspect. The travel arrangements of Nunes, does it seem to coordinate with the timeframe here?

WARD: It most certainly does. The congressional record has Devin Nunes and three aides going to Europe at the end of November, and the significance of that is that one of the aides told Lev Parnas that it was after the midterms but before the Democrats took over the House so that Devin Nunes would not have to disclose the details of that trip.

I should also add, Martin, that the person who originally told Lev Parnas about the meeting with Shokin was Shokin.

SAVIDGE: Interesting. Let me ask you this. President Trump's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani has just responded to your reporting this afternoon. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Devin Nunes says he didn't meet GIULIANI: And with Shokin. I have no reason to believe that he did. In fact, if he did, there would have been nothing wrong with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GIULIANI: He should have met with Shokin. Shoken had relative evidence of massive corruption in the Ukraine that was being covered up by the ambassador, being covered up by the State Department.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

not being investigated by the FBI or the Justice Department.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: And we get, as in typical Giuliani style, sound two messages there. He didn't know about any meeting, but if he did have that meeting it would have been OK. What have you heard about all of this?

WARD: Well, of course, the most interesting thing in a way about the meeting is the fact that Devin Nunes didn't disclose it so that the very subject of the impeachment hearings has been this shadow foreign policy in Ukraine for the president's personal political benefit, not our national security. And Devin Nunes seems to be involved in it and has not disclosed that. I think that I would have to disagree with Rudy Giuliani about it not mattering.

SAVIDGE: No, it would matter a great deal. And Lev Parnas has, as we know, been indicted for federal campaign finance charges last month. And so here's to the skeptic part of me. He comes forward with some new information, perhaps to get leniency here. Could that impact his credibility as a witness?

WARD: Well, look, Lev Parnas is obviously an imperfect witness. He has a history of wrongdoing. But I think that our reporting is showing more and more that he was far more central to this shadow foreign policy than any of us yet know. His lawyer now has a hashtag on Twitter, #letLevspeak.

And yes, it is a gamble. Lev Parnas has been subpoenaed by congress. He's also facing indictment by the Southern District of New York, and clearly his lawyer wants Lev Parnas to be able to tell Congress what he knows, but with some form of immunity.

SAVIDGE: He wants some protections.

WARD: Yes.

SAVIDGE: Vicky Ward, excellent reporting.

WARD: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: Thank you very much for bringing that to us.

This morning the president's attorney also said that he is not afraid of getting indicted, and that when it comes to President Trump, their relationship is good and he's not worried that the president could turn on him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I don't discuss -- I do not discuss my conversations with my client. You can assume that I talk to him early and often.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

GIULIANI: And have a very, very good relationship with him, and all of these comments, which are totally insulting -- I've seen things written like he's going to throw me under the bus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GIULIANI: When I say that, I say, he isn't, but I have insurance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:00]

SAVIDGE: You could read that response in many different ways. CNN White House Correspondent, Jeremy Diamond joins me now from the White House. And Jeremy, what does he mean?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: It's interesting and it's certainly a matter of interpretation. We do know that this is a line that Giuliani has previously used, in particular one time when he was actually asked, are you worried about the president throwing you under the bus? Giuliani said, I have very good insurance.

Now, people on the president's legal team, people close to Giuliani have insisted that this is a joke, that he is referring more to excellent health insurance rather than some kind of insurance against the president, but certainly, and especially the way that he said it this morning, it does raise questions about what exactly Rudy Giuliani is referring to or whether, perhaps, he does like this conversation out there about the possibility that, look, he can protect himself if ever the president were to turn on him.

We do know certainly that in the recent weeks of testimony we have learned more and more information about Rudy Giuliani's role in all of this, and certainly there has been speculation that perhaps the president might, indeed, throw Rudy Giuliani under the bus if, indeed, the heat gets a little bit too hot.

SAVIDGE: Yes, some have suggested that. On another subject, CNN's learning new details of an orchestrated effort by the White House to connect Rudy with the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo right as Giuliani was pushing for an investigation into the Bidens. What more have we learned? DIAMOND: That's right. Essentially, the White House helped arrange a

phone call between Rudy Giuliani and the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo back in March, and that phone call actually occurred a day after Rudy Giuliani submitted information to the State Department that contained allegations against the former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden, as well as allegations about Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine who was ousted just a couple months after that phone call actually took place.

We don't know what was actually discussed on the call, but we do know that on March 28th Rudy Giuliani submitted this information, and then on March 29th he spoke with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. He had also spoken with Pompeo on March 26th, two days before actually submitting that report, and Rudy Giuliani has certainly talked about discussing this information with Pompeo in the past, so very interesting information.

Again, it comes as we are learning more about Secretary Pompeo's involvement in all of this. And certainly Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, said earlier this week that Secretary Pompeo was in the loop throughout this pressure campaign on Ukraine.

SAVIDGE: Jeremy Diamond, good to see you. Thank you very much.

And with me now to talk more about this is Sophia Nelson. She's a former House GOP counsel, a "USA Today" opinion contributor, and a columnist for "The Daily Beast." She is also an author of the book "e Pluribus One." Sophia, thanks for joining me today.

SOPHIA NELSON, FORMER HOUSE GOP INVESTIGATIVE COUNSEL, 1997-1999: Thanks for having me, Martin.

SAVIDGE: Where to start? Let me start by getting your reaction to the CNN reporting on Devin Nunes. If it's true that the ranking Republican on the House Intel Committee had meetings with the disgraced former Ukrainian prosecutor to dig up dirt on the Bidens, what's the significance of this?

NELSON: It's hugely significant. Two things strike me as important. One, if you watched the hearings, as we all did, over the last week or so, Devin Nunes' behavior was bizarre at best. It was trending on Twitter. Every time he opened his mouth he attacked, he was biting, he was disrespectful.

If you put that into context of what we are now hearing from Parnas, that he had a meeting in Vienna, that he is involved in the Ukraine scandal, if you will, saying that the Ukrainians hacked our elections versus the Russians, the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee being involved in some nefarious, and I'm using that word intentionally, activity, is a problem, and it will at the very least prompt an ethics investigation by the House.

And I think that we all need to buckle up, because I suspect more and more of this is going to come out as other people like the Parnas and the other gentlemen that were indicted and that are looking at some serious criminal charges, I think that there's a real problem here for Nunes if this is true. And I don't have a reason to believe it's not. It's easily disprovable, right. If he didn't do, he can show where he was and show this guy to be a liar.

SAVIDGE: Right. We've already matched up the travel schedule here. Could there be any criminal implication for him?

NELSON: House -- members of Congress have certain immunities, et cetera, in their official duties. But look, you're dealing with a situation here that, again, if Nunes did this and he didn't tell it, reveal it that he had contacts, it feeds into what Fiona Hill testified about, talking about these activities with Rudy Giuliani, how they were looking into Burisma, which really was code for Biden.

And again, the ranking member -- now, we're not just talking about a member of Congress here, a regular member, we're talking about the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee, I think it's a huge problem. I think there could be criminal implications.

[14:10:04]

I wasn't a prosecutor so I want to be careful not to walk down that path, but I want to say that he's going to, at the very least, get an ethics investigation. They're going to have to look at this if this is real.

SAVIDGE: The attorney for Lev Parnas says that his client is willing to comply with a Congressional subpoena for documents and testimony as part of the impeachment inquiry in a manner that would allow him to apparently protect his Fifth Amendment rights against self- incrimination. But do you see a scenario where that could actually happen?

NELSON: I do. I think Adam Schiff has a real decision to make here. This is very uncomfortable, right, because his colleague, the ranking member is at issue.

SAVIDGE: Right next to him.

NELSON: Right. But this goes to credibility, and it also goes to motive in what we saw Devin Nunes in terms of his conduct. Look, if I were the investigative counsel or the committee counsel, the chief counsel advising, I would give the guy immunity and I'd bring him in to talk, because I think when you're impeaching a president, Martin, it's very serious.

We need to know everything. We need to know what has really gone on. And I think it needs to happen in front of the public, actually. I know that this guy is shady. There's no doubt that he's a shady character, but I would give him immunity and I'd let him talk and be able to produce proof that he met with Devin Nunes. That would be important, I think.

SAVIDGE: Rudy Giuliani, real quick here, he's a central figure, of course, in the Ukraine pressure campaign. He said today that he's not worried about the president turning on him, but if he does, he has insurance. Do you see any scenario where he would, or the president would turn on him?

NELSON: Come on, Martin. The president turns on everybody. If the president would turn on his oldest and dearest consiglieri Michael Cohen, he'll turn on Rudy in a heartbeat. Look, this president has shown us all that at the end of the day he's going to save himself.

And that's why Rudy made that comment. It's an old saying we have in the African-American community -- don't start none, won't be none. And that's basically what he told the president, I got you, but in case you want to turn on me, sir, I've got proof. Whatever that proof is, I don't know.

And I think John Bolton needs to testify as well, if I can work that in, because I think that's really important.

SAVIDGE: Yes. No, I think a lot of us want to hear. But just to be sure here, so you don't think he's talking about health insurance when he says he has insurance? You believe he has got something on the president that he could use?

NELSON: Again, the gaslighting that this White House and this president and the secretary of state and others engage in is ridiculous. Do they think we're stupid? He's not talking about health insurance. It was a veiled threat, actually not so veiled. He put the president on notice, don't go there or else. That's what he did.

SAVIDGE: Sophia Nelson, great to have your expertise as part of the program.

NELSON: Thanks, Martin.

SAVIDGE: Good to see you. Thank you.

Coming up, CNN's exclusive interview with Joe Biden. What he has to say about growing up in South Carolina and what that means for his campaign.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:24]

SAVIDGE: As the House's impeachment inquiry dominates national headlines, former Vice President Joe Biden finds himself at a real focal point in the controversy. Biden has fallen to a three-way second place tie in the crucial state of Iowa since this whole smear campaign began.

Now an exclusive CNN interview, CNN's Don Lemon sits down with Biden where he talks about the 2020 race, the impeachment hearings, and how his friend, Senator Lindsey Graham, is under the thumb of the president. Here's part one of our exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I've watched you today when you officially put your name on the ballot here.

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.

LEMON: Hopping across chairs, something that I couldn't do in a way that I couldn't do it, but people love you here. People love you here, especially the black folks here, right? You said in the debate that you come from the black community. The support that you have here, you're ahead in the polls, is largely in part for the black community. What did you mean, you come from the black community?

BIDEN: What I mean, as a kid, we moved out from Scranton, Pennsylvania, where there were no African-Americans. We moved to a state that has the eighth largest black population in America as a percent of population.

Most people don't know that. I remember as a kid being dropped off at school, grade school, and seeing the bus going by with African- American black kids in it. And I remember asking my mom, why, why is that? It was like, they can't go to school. I happened to go to Catholic school. They can't go to public schools here.

And then I remember, a lot of us, I got engaged in the community because I wanted to know more. I was a relatively good athlete, and got a job in the biggest city swimming pool in the black community eastside, they call it, the projects, and I was the only white employee there.

And I began to learn -- I thought I knew what the problem was. But I remember a friend, a fellow lifeguard, asking me at lunch break, do I have a jerrycan, a big five gallon. I said no. What do you need a jerrycan for? He said I'm going to go visit my grandma. We can't stop at gas stations down in the south. And I'm thinking it's like -- anyway.

And then, my whole generation, people don't quite get it, understandably, because I'm so much older, but I remember in I think it was 62, 63, sitting at the University of Delaware and watching Bull Connor take those hoses and hose down women and going -- in their Sunday best going to church. And it was like, whoa. Yo, what's going on here?

And so -- and I used to -- after I worked in the eastside, I spent a lot of time with folks going to the black church, Reverend Herring and others, because that's the place where I'm a practicing Catholic, I'd go to mass, then I'd go over to the church, and that's a place where people would organize from and desegregate movie theaters, that kind of thing. I'm not making myself to be a great shake, but that's how I got involved.

LEMON: People would say when they hear that they say, wait, is Joe Biden black? He came from the black community?

BIDEN: No, I understand that. And what I meant was politically I come from the black community, and I really do. It's the reason why I ran in the first place. That's how I got engaged. I didn't plan on running. I got engaged because of what was happening in my community. I got engaged as a county councilman trying to put public housing in

the suburbs. I almost lost my seat. It was -- it really is the -- it's a little bit like today. A lot of young people seeing those kids in cages at the border. That can't be true.

[14:20:05]

LEMON: Yes. Well, there is a certain degree of comfort you have with black folk. Does it come from that?

BIDEN: I've never been uncomfortable. For real, yes, it does. I've --

LEMON: Let me read this.

BIDEN: Sure.

LEMON: This is one of your competitors for the nomination, Senator Kamala Harris, and this is a quote. She said for too long candidates have taken for granted constituencies that have been the backbone of the Democratic Party. Are you taking the black community for granted assuming because you were the vice president with Barack Obama that you had the black community's support?

BIDEN: I have never, ever, ever taken the black community's -- look, it's all about dignity. It's all about treating people with dignity, as my dad would say. And I have never, never, never taken a black community for granted.

LEMON: So what do you do to justify the support that you have? What will you do as president to justify that overwhelming support that you have from black people?

BIDEN: To continue to do what I've always done, to deal with the idea that there's such an abuse of power that goes on in America today, but with this president in particular, of people who are black and brown. It's just a pure abuse of power. And the way this guy coddles the white supremacists.

One of the things I learned, and I thought we had passed it, when I was standing waiting for Barack to pick me up coming down from Philadelphia in January when we got sworn in, and thousands of people down along the tracks. And I looked out over the eastside, I went to call the Third Street Bridge, and I called my kids up.

I said I came home from college, from law school, had a job with a really prestigious law firm, and I quit to become a public defender because my city was occupied by the National Guard for 10 months with drawn bayonets in the corners. And I became a public defender. And I thought things were never going to get better. And I said, guys, look, I stood here 40 years ago to this month, and look what's happening. Don't tell me things can't change.

And then what I misunderstood was hate only hides. It only hides. It doesn't go fully -- it never goes away. As a friend of mine Jon Meacham says, in fact, the history of the United States of America is not a fairytale.

And so to see those folks come out of these fields carrying torches and chanting anti-Semitic bile with faces contorted, and the head of the Ku Klux Klan, the former head, the Grand Kleagle saying this is why we elected him. And then him being asked when a young woman got killed, what do you think?

LEMON: So you've got our back? You have black folks' back, is that what you think?

BIDEN: No, they've had my back my whole career, and I hope I have the back of everybody. But I think I understand -- presumptuous of me to say this, but I've always been engaged with the community my whole career.

LEMON: Let's talk about black women, because black women have been the backbone of the Democratic Party for a while, especially lately.

BIDEN: Yes.

LEMON: Elizabeth Warren is making a play for black women, speaking directly to them. How are you specifically going to propose policies or appeal to African-American women for the election?

BIDEN: The way you saw me do in that coffee shop I was just there. You saw all those black women there. Look, it's about -- look, the fact is that black women have led politically in the Democratic Party and they understand.

Look, number one, we have to provide for serious educational opportunities for their kids. That's why triple the amount of money we spend in Title One schools, that are schools that are disadvantaged, so teachers can get paid, we can attract the best teachers in those communities, so that you can have everybody in school at age three, four and five. When you do that, all the studies show exponentially increases their prospects to success.

To make sure that we provide for child care, child care, as well as paid leave. I was a single parent, and I was a dad, and I was a senator for five years, and it was hard to do it. Think of all of the -- think of the women who put their kid on the school bus today or walk them out and wondered, is it going to be OK.

LEMON: Let's get more specific about the race. In the three states that vote before South Carolina, right, the polls are really tight. But in Iowa Mayor Buttigieg is really emerging as a frontrunner. Every Democratic race since 2000, as you know, the winner has come out of Iowa. Does his big lead concern you? Do you think that someone who's 37-years-old has the experience to be president?

BIDEN: Well, I'm not going to judge him, but I can tell you about the lead. If you notice when that poll came out, there was one by CBS right afterwards showing me winning. And so this is -- we're talking he's up to 25 percent or something. He's done a great job. He's organized. He's doing well. But you also know, because you've covered it, every major Iowa

election, caucus has been determined in the last three to five weeks because that's when people make up their minds.

[14:25:03]

And if you take a look at those polls, and I'm not running on the polls, but they said the most important thing they need as a candidate who can beat Donald Trump. When asked who is the most likely to beat Donald Trump, I eclipse everybody.

Secondly, you have a circumstance where you've got to go out to Iowa and make the case town to town. And so we have a first rate there operation now. I think we're going to win Iowa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: And there is more of that interview just ahead. Biden reacts to the threats of former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg entering the 2020 race.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: In part two of CNN's exclusive interview with former Vice President Joe Biden, our Don Lemon questions Biden about his mental fitness and the growing 2020 Democratic field.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I want to talk to you, too, about staying in shape, because there are some folks who have recently gotten in this race, they don't think you're in shape, and they say they got in the race because they don't think you're in shape. One of them is Mayor Bloomberg.

[14:30:04]

BIDEN: Come on.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Go on.

BIDEN: Come on. No, I'm just saying, come on. I welcome the competition.

LEMON: Someone in his campaign said, or someone said specifically he has specific concerns about your ability to carry this through to the finish line. What do you say about that?

BIDEN: Watch me. Watch me. The idea that I'm not in better shape than Mayor Bloomberg physically and otherwise?

Look, this -- Trump is so bad as a president and so corrupt as a president that everybody in America who's ever been involved in politics, especially if they have $1 billion, thinks they can beat Trump. Maybe they could. And so what do you have to do? I'm the guy sitting at the top of the pyramid. I get it. I'm a big boy. Never complain, never explain.

LEMON: Deval Patrick is there, too, he doesn't have $1 billion.

BIDEN: No, he doesn't. But I noticed, they showed him the other day, he went down to -- anyway, he went down to Morehouse and had all of these hundreds of seats, and no one showed up.

So, look, I like Deval, I really do. He's a good guy, and he's a solid guy. But I think this is about deciding who is ready on day one to unite this country and demonstrate if they could, and, number two, who, in fact, can be ready on day one and be commander in chief.

LEMON: I've got to read this for you.

BIDEN: Sure.

LEMON: You talked a lot about President Trump. This morning this is what President Trump said about you on FOX News, and I quote here, all right? He said, well, I don't know if Joe can make it mentally. He is --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: He's off -- he's off. There's no question about it. So I don't know if he's going to make it mentally if he gets -- if he gets through it without cracking up. What's your response?

BIDEN: Mr. President, I can hardly wait. I can hardly wait. You're a serial liar. You're corrupt, and I know you think yourself the handsomest, the smartest. But look, Mr. President, you've made a botch of the job. And so I'm used to bullies. I'm used to bullies. I'm ready. I'm ready. Look, I think it's appropriate for people to look at all of us and decide are we in the physical shape, are we in the mental shape, are we based on your age. It's all appropriate. But all I can say is just watch me.

LEMON: Listen, people are concerned whether you have lost a step, right, because you know what happened in Detroit. I was one of the moderators in Detroit, and you stuttered on stage. There's an "Atlantic" article about that, you overcoming that as a challenge, but have you overcome the stuttering?

BIDEN: Yes, I've overcome it.

LEMON: Is that part of the issue?

BIDEN: No, I don't think so at all. One of the things that is part of the issue is when you get frontally attacked by people who have just got finished saying nice things about you earlier, and you've got to be careful. You've got to be careful how you respond on stage. And they're not debates, as you know. This is a joke. They're not debates. These are one-minute assertions.

And so what I find myself doing, and I'm not doing it anymore, is sort of pulling back from countering attacks. And I just think that -- I just think that it's important that you get an opportunity eventually to narrow down this field. When you have 10, 12 people on a stage and you're sitting there for two, three hours, and 80 percent of the questions directed to you are direct attacks, understandable, I get it, but how do you respond to a really bright woman who looks at you and says you didn't really care about black folks? What you did in bussing, et cetera.

LEMON: How do you respond? That's a question to you.

BIDEN: Well, the question to me was -- I didn't want to do it at the time, but her position is the exact same as mine was. Take a look at it. There's no difference in the positions. And the idea that -- but what was able to happen is you turn around and you say, but I, I am this, I am that, and you can't understand. Well, it's a little delicate how to respond to that.

LEMON: But let's get back to the whole issue, because donors are concerned about that, whether you've lost a step. They're concerned about your cognitive abilities. The "Atlantic" article made a good case for some of the reasons that you may not be as -- may come out and say the wrong words sometimes, or are unable to complete your thoughts sometimes. But you don't believe that that is an issue?

BIDEN: No, I don't. Take a look at the polling data. Why am I?

LEMON: No one should be concerned about that?

BIDEN: No one should be concerned about that. Why am I so far ahead in the national polls? Why am I so far ahead here? Why am I so far ahead in Nevada? Tell me, why?

[14:35:09]

If everybody says the people are thinking, people are thinking. OK. The pundits may be thinking, but that's not where the people are.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: And when we come back, Don Lemon will ask Joe Biden about impeachment and the GOP strategy to go after him and his son.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Now part three of CNN's exclusive interview with former Vice President Joe Biden, where Biden weighs in on impeachment and says his former Senate colleague, Lindsey Graham, should be embarrassed for trying to launch an investigation into the Biden family.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I want to talk to you about impeachment.

BIDEN: Yes.

LEMON: Do you think Democrats have made their case? Do you see an impeachable offense?

[14:40:00]

BIDEN: I think it's clear on the record that Donald Trump went in, in addition to the violations that have been uncovered relative to the Mueller report, I think Donald Trump, there's no doubt he's asked foreign countries to interfere in our electoral process, period. It's been established.

Now Republicans are trying to make it that that has nothing to do with anything. The truth is it's a violation of the Constitution to do that. So I think the case has been made clear.

What the Republicans do when it gets over to the Senate where the actual trial begins -- impeachment, indictment, that means an indictment. So I believe he should be impeached and have the Senate try whether or not they are high crimes and misdemeanors that would cause him to be thrown out of office. That's a decision for them to make. I hope they have the courage -- I hope they remember this is a moment, a moment when their record is going down in history as to whether they played it by the rules.

LEMON: Republicans are still trying to make this about you and your son.

BIDEN: Sure they are. But you know, look, there's not a scintilla of evidence that I did anything wrong. If you notice, what's happened is the entire spectrum of people involved, from our folks in the E.U. who are friends to the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, to our allies, to the Ukrainians, not a single shred that I did anything other than my job, and really well.

LEMON: But that has to anger you because they keep bringing you up over and over.

BIDEN: Sure it does.

LEMON: You say there's not a scintilla of evidence. Let me ask you, because Lindsey Graham now, who you've worked with, who was a friend, who I know there's video of you saying you are the nicest person he's ever met, you're the greatest man. And now he's asking the State Department for documents for you and your son. What do you say to Lindsey Graham and folks like him?

BIDEN: They're asking Lindsey Graham, they have him under their thumb right now. They know he knows if he comes out against Trump, he's got a real tough road for reelection, number one. I am disappointed, and quite frankly, I'm angered by the fact, he knows me. He knows my son.

He knows there's nothing to this. Trump is now essentially holding power over him that even the Ukrainians wouldn't yield to. Ukrainians would not yield to, quote, investigate Biden. There's nothing to investigate about Biden or his son. And Lindsey is about to go down in a way that I think he's going to regret his whole life.

LEMON: What do you say to him?

BIDEN: I say, Lindsey, I just -- I'm just embarrassed by what you're doing, for you. My lord. And it just -- I mean --

LEMON: Have you watched these hearings?

BIDEN: I've watched some of them, because I've been on the road.

LEMON: What do you think of their defense when you hear them questioning the witnesses and the patriotism of these people who have come forward?

BIDEN: It angers me. It angers me, especially Trump trying to intimidate witnesses while they're testifying. What kind of man is this? That alone is enough for him to be viewed as a pariah.

LEMON: Yes.

BIDEN: Think about it.

LEMON: But it seems you talk about always healing the party and working with people on the other side. I don't know if this is the same party as when you were a senator and when you were vice president. Can you work with this party? Can you heal this divide?

BIDEN: With Trump defeated, yes, I can. And where we can't work with him, we go out and defeat them.

LEMON: I have got to ask you, this is a grueling process.

BIDEN: Yes.

LEMON: You're 77 years old, you and Bernie Sanders, the oldest. Why are you the guy? Do you have the stamina? Why are you the guy?

BIDEN: Come out and run with me, man. Come to the gym with me and lift with me. I thank God, I know it can change in a moment, I know that. You never can take for granted your health. But I'm in great health. I'm in physical health. And again, just sort of watch me. Like I was doing a parade, and there were some Trump-ites there, it was the Fourth of July parade. I said sleepy, I said come run with me, Jack. Come run with me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: Our special thanks to CNN's Don Lemon for that exclusive interview. Much more ahead right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news. This is CNN breaking news.

SAVIDGE: We're following breaking news. "The New York Times" reporting today that the Secretary of the Navy and the admiral who leads the SEALs have threatened to resign or be fired if Trump interferes with plans to expel a commando from the elite unit in a war crimes case. CNN Military Analyst, Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling joins

me now. And General, this is of course the disciplinary review of Chief Edward Gallagher. It would seem like you're dealing with one individual here, yet you're talking about the head of the Navy and an admiral willing to quit on this. How is it so significant?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's significant because it isn't really a disciplinary review. It's a certification of the SEAL Trident, Martin. And that's important because we depend upon the commander of the SEAL unit, in this case Admiral Green, to set the standards. He sees Chief Gallagher as having violated those standards as part of that trial.

So this is different from the pardon from the criminal action that the president gave. This is actually the president attempting to interfere in the command structure between Admiral Green and his SEALs in setting the certification standards for the members of his team.

Now the Secretary of the Navy is standing behind Admiral Green on this, and they've notified the White House that they're not going to do something based on just a tweet. They want a direct order. And if that direct order comes, it will be interesting to see what happens with the Secretary of the Navy and Admiral Green.

SAVIDGE: The president is the commander in chief, though, here. Doesn't he have the final say?

HERTLING: Yes, he certainly does. He can do this. He can certainly do this, but I think the message that the Secretary to the Navy and Admiral Green are sending is if you don't trust us to run our unit, to establish the discipline and the standards within our units, then we have to resign because you've lost trust in us to do the things that we need to do to make sure the SEALs are the ultimate fighting force.

[14:50:00]

The interesting thing about this, Martin, you remember, the SEALs have been having some challenges with discipline and standards-keeping within the last several months. They've had multiple issues of people going rogue. They've had to pull forces out of Iraq. So this is Admiral Green who's kind of the new kid in town saying, hey, you either trust me to command the unit the way I'm supposed to trust and make decisions like this, or replace me, and I'm going to resign.

And truthfully, this rumor has been going around the Pentagon for the last couple of days. And Martin, I'll tell you, I'm not sure what I would do if I were in Admiral Green's position. I think I would be thinking the same thing. And the Secretary of the Navy is, in my view, honorably supporting one of his admirals.

SAVIDGE: Yes. As I was watching and reading about this, I felt I was worried it might come to this. We'll see. Lieutenant Mark Hertling, General, thank you very for being with us.

We'll have more in a moment right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: This weekend CNN is taking a closer look at all the president's lies, and one case in particular involving a hurricane and a sharpie. Our Jake Tapper talks with fact checkers, historians, scientists, and pundits about Trump's storm scandal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: The Alabama saga began September 1st when the president tweeted that, along with other states, hurricane Dorian was headed there.

[14:55:03]

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Alabama's going to get a piece of it, it looks like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you go back through all the forecasts, Alabama had a minuscule chance, basically close to zero chance of any significant weather.

TAPPER: Alabama residents, panicked by Trump's tweet, inundated the Birmingham National Weather Service.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They decided we're going to put out a quick statement to warn people that this rumor is not true, not realizing that they had president of the United States had caused the rumor in the first place.

TRUMP: That was the original chart.

TAPPER: Even after National Weather Service officials tweeted the correction, President Trump persisted.

TRUMP: It was going towards the Gulf. That was what we -- what was originally projected.

TAPPER: Giving an Oval Office hurricane update with an obsolete weather map.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody, possibly the president, I don't know, somebody in the White House took a black magic marker and extended the cone, if you will, of warning into Alabama, the infamous Sharpie-gate, right. And it could have died there. It probably would have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: You don't want to miss this special report, "All the President's Lies" airing tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN.

Thank you so very much for joining me. I'm Martin Savidge. We have whole lot more just ahead in the NEWSROOM with Ana Cabrera. That will begin after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.