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Interview with Rep. Ro Khanna (D-CA); Mark Esper Statement on Spencer Firing; Zimbabwe Selling Elephants to China Causes Global Outcry. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired November 25, 2019 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:30:57]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: This morning, the next steps in the House impeachment inquiry are up in the air as lawmakers head home for Thanksgiving break, Democrats now facing their constituents for the first time after two weeks of explosive testimony. But the hearings did not sway, as far as we know, a single Republican.

With me now, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna. He serves on the Oversight and Budget Committees. Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Good to be on.

SCIUTTO: So you heard the chairman of the Intel Committee, Adam Schiff, say over the weekend that he still wants to discuss this with his constituents and colleagues. He's not made a decision on whether to impeach. Have you seen enough evidence to vote to impeach the president?

KHANNA: I have. I think the evidence is overwhelming. The president pressured Zelensky to dig up dirt on Joe Biden and withheld aid. And to me, that's an impeachable offense.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, though. As you know, your Republican colleagues noted -- and to be fair, this is largely because the White House did not allow the witnesses to testify, but still -- a direct line has not been drawn to the president, with the president telling someone in the administration, "Do X," right? Withhold this aid.

I just wonder, since you have court cases that may compel witnesses to testify -- including one today regarding Don McGahn, the former White House counsel -- why not wait until you have the opportunity at least to expend all legal recourse to get those witnesses to testify?

KHANNA: Well, first of all, I think Ambassador Sondland's testimony establishes a direct line to the president. But the reason that Chairman Schiff has left open the possibility of more witnesses is there is the Don McGahn decision today. And if we can expeditiously get a Mick Mulvaney or a Don McGahn or a John Bolton to testify, we will do so. But we're not going to wait months and months and let the White House drag out the process.

SCIUTTO: But how long are you willing to wait then? Because of course, that opens you, does it not, to questions about whether you're following a political timeline as opposed to the most substantive timeline to complete the impeachment inquiry?

KHANNA: I think the evidence is already overwhelming. And you have Republicans like Representative Amodei saying let's just follow the facts, and then you have the White House asking him to walk that back.

So there's nothing that we are going to present that's going to convince some of these Republicans in the House. But if we can get even more evidence, we will do that. But many of my colleagues believe that the evidence already is overwhelming and enough to vote for impeachment.

SCIUTTO: I want to quote a Democratic fundraiser from a story in "The Hill" who said the following: "After three years, the country was sick of hearing about Russia. And now the average American doesn't understand or doesn't care about the case we're making on Ukraine." Again, a Democratic fundraiser whereof (ph) -- listen, waning patience, if you want to call it that, with another investigation, whether justified or not. How concerned are you that Democrats are going to pay a price, particularly in swing districts in 2020?

KHANNA: I'm not concerned. I think what people are wary and sick of is scandal after scandal. And we saw this with Richard Nixon. The country said, we want something new, and you had Jimmy Carter's election. We saw this, frankly, with Bill Clinton when the country elected George W. Bush.

And I think after all of these scandals, after Russia, after Ukraine, people are going to say, let's just start anew and we're going to have a new president in 2021.

SCIUTTO: But the difference between -- as you know as well as me -- between Nixon and Clinton and this is that both those cases, you had party members cross party lines. It was Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee who moved against Nixon, that forced the resignation. You had Democrats voting against the president in the Clinton impeachment. This looks like a purely party line vote. Doesn't that weaken your case?

KHANNA: I think we actually may have some Republicans in the Senate look at the evidence and vote against this president. Susan Collins is a possibility, Lisa Murkowski is a possibility, even Mitt Romney is a possibility. So I think we have to see how the case is presented to the Senate.

[10:35:00]

And we are living in more partisan times, but I think most people are saying, why are we not getting anything done on prescription drugs when the House is willing to pass a bill, H.R. 3? Why haven't we gotten anything done on infrastructure? And they blame the culture in the White House of scandal after scandal, and they're going to want someone who's going to get work done for the American people.

SCUITTO: Congressman Ro Khanna, thanks for taking the time this morning and let me wish you and your family a happy Thanksgiving.

KHANNA: Thank you, Jim. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family as well.

SCIUTTO: Well, the Navy secretary, fired for his handling of the case of a Navy SEAL accused of war crimes. And as he goes, Richard Spencer takes a parting shot at the president.

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[10:40:16]

SCIUTTO: This morning, an extraordinary controversy at the Pentagon. Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer, fired by Defense Secretary Mark Esper. His ouster stems from the case of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher.

Gallagher was convicted by a military court for posing with the corpse of an ISIS fighter. In a rare move, President Trump reversed that decision and later prevented the Navy from exercising disciplinary action against Gallagher as well.

On his way out, Spencer took a parting shot at the president, accusing him of undermining military discipline; also, in effect, forcing him to violate his oath.

Joining me now with details, CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. I understand you've been speaking to the defense secretary with other reporters. What is the latest you're hearing there?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Defense Secretary Mark Esper has just finished essentially meeting with a small group of Pentagon reporters to explain more about why the Navy secretary was fired by him over the weekend.

And according to Mark Esper, the defense secretary, the Navy secretary was engaged in back-channel communications with the White House to try and basically assure that while there might be a review of Gallagher, he would get to keep at the end of the day his SEAL status, which was very important to him. And that was not what Esper had been pushing for with the White House. Esper had been pushing for letting the military justice system take its course and not having a pre-cooked deal, essentially.

What is so striking here is Spencer mentions none of this in his resignation letter. No mention that he was doing back-channel negotiations with the White House. But Esper says when he spoke to Spencer over the weekend, he readily admitted it and it was at that point, Esper told him he needed his resignation letter. Now, President Trump, also agreeing to what Esper is going to do, which is let Eddie Gallagher retire with his SEAL status intact.

So at the end of the day, Gallagher gets what he wants, Trump gets what he wants, the Navy secretary goes and a lot of confusion because it's still not really clear why Spencer thought he should engage in these back-channel communications with the White House and not tell the Defense secretary anything about it.

Esper had no idea, he says, that the Navy secretary was doing this. And he says that is a violation of chain of command, a violation of procedures in the Defense Department --

SCIUTTO: OK.

STARR: -- and it you can't agree with an order, you've got to resign.

SCIUTTO: Right, OK. But we also know that Spencer, the two-star in charge of the Navy SEALs, were not happy with the White House intervening in a case of military justice, but also in a disciplinary decision here.

In light of all this, I mean, was Esper, the defense secretary, willing to challenge the president on his interference in this case? Because now Esper has said, well, you know, he can't -- Gallagher cannot get a fair hearing on the disciplinary issue, so we're just going to let that slide.

STARR: Well, after Spencer -- you know, I think his thinking is, after Spencer engaged in these communications with the White House that nobody knew anything about, that to now send this to an internal Navy review board of non-commissioned officers, would be placing an undue burden on them, that no matter what they would decide, people would say it was a precooked deal and that there was unfair treatment.

What Esper is now saying is, Gallagher needs to get out of the Navy, that it will happen, we believe, on November 30th, and that the entire department needs to move on. An awful lot of time and effort has been spent on this.

SCIUTTO: No disciplinary action as well. Barbara Starr, thanks very much.

STARR: Sure.

[10:44:00]

SCIUTTO: Dozens of young elephants captured in the wild in Zimbabwe, now locked up -- these are the pictures here -- in cages in China. CNN exclusive report on why this is happening and the understandable global outrage.

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SCIUTTO: This is a CNN exclusive report. Dozens of young elephants that were roaming free just weeks ago are now being held in cages far away in China. Officials in Zimbabwe captured and sold the animals, claiming it is totally legal and a way to pay, they say, for conservation efforts.

But the move is causing worldwide outrage, hard questions. Here's CNN's David McKenzie. DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thirty young wild African elephants, captured, sold and sent to China to fill amusements parks and zoos. But first, they will be broken here. This cell phone video is an exclusive look at the latest shipment from Zimbabwe. In cage after metal cage, the signs of suffering are clear. Just weeks ago, they were among family groups in Hwange National Park.

MCKENZIE: What they do when they come and capture these elephants is, they separate the youngsters. Not the very youngest, but the young elephant from the rest of the herd. And scientists say that elephants are incredibly social animals. They develop bonds for a lifetime. And by ripping them away from their families and sending them off to a foreign country, they say it's extremely traumatic for the elephants that go and elephants that remain.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): Despite these concerns, the trade up until now has been legal. But that window is closing. New rules preventing overseas shipments from countries like Zimbabwe come into full effect at the end of November. Zimbabwe park officials say they will abide by those new rules.

CHRISPEN CHIKADAYA, ZNSPCA: There's no (ph) transparency any more.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): But animal rights inspector Chrispen Chikadaya says he's already seen a shift towards secrecy.

CHIKADAYA: Something is not right.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): For the past year, officials blocked his team from entering the park, claiming they needed special permits that were not actually required. He fears that the already opaque sales won't end, they'll just go underground.

MCKENZIE: What was it like being pushed away?

CHIKADAYA: I'm a government-appointed inspector. And it's our mandate to see the welfare of those animals. They don't belong to national parks, they belong to the people of Zimbabwe.

MCKENZIE: So now we've got the jeep here's (ph) coordinates of where we think these elephants have been kept. There's some 30 elephants that were shipped to China, caused global outrage.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): Animal rights activists and park sources told us that just beyond this boom gate, elephants were left behind and were getting prepped to be sent away.

MCKENZIE: But is it not possible to come in now with you, just to have a look?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes (ph), nothing we can do. Sir (ph), you know, this place, for all the clients who come here, they are cleared by the manager.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): We went to management, and were repeatedly refused entry. They told us there was nothing to see, but they did agree to an on-camera interview.

MCKENZIE: Why is Zimbabwe selling elephants to China?

TINASHE FARAWO, SPOKESMAN, ZIMPARKS: It's part of our management plan. We have rangers in this park who spend 21 (ph) days in the bush, protecting these animals. They don't have uniforms, they don't have boots, they don't have tents and they don't have food.

As an authority, we believe that the elephants must pay for their upkeep. They must also pay for their protection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's one of the elephants (ph) affected on the ground (ph) here.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): But protection for Zimbabwe's wild elephants is far from assured. Elephants are dying, more than 200 in just the last few months, succumbing to the severe drought that's hit the region. In this lean season, elephants in the wild are suffering too.

But Ranger Oscar Sibanda says, better to let nature take its course.

MCKENZIE: And you think it's good that some elephant are sent away to zoos in China, Pakistan, the U.S.?

OSCAR SIBANDA, HWANGE RANGER: I don't think it's right. We (ph) have (ph) to be (ph) proud (ph) of our country. These are our animals for our children, grandchildren.

MCKENZIE (voice-over): But these elephants, taken from Zimbabwe, remain trapped far from home. David McKenzie, CNN, Hwange.

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SCIUTTO: Just an alarming story.

[10:53:01]

Other news we're following, a brazen break-in at a museum, leading now to a manhunt in Germany. Police say the value of what the thieves stole, right there, is immeasurable.

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SCIUTTO: It's almost like Hollywood, an historic heist in Germany. Dresden police say thieves broke into one of Europe's oldest museums and then made off with priceless treasures. The value of those items, so great authorities say their worth simply is incalculable, they can't figure out how much it's all worth. Now, a manhunt is under way.

How did they get away scot-free? CNN's Phil Black joins me now, live from London. Phil has been covering this story. And you can see there, now, some of the priceless treasures that were in the museum, taken away I guess in broad daylight, this heist was. Police now trying to find the perpetrators as they remain on this manhunt around Germany. Phil Black joins me now, live from London.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, by the initial description, when you first think about it, this sounds like some incredibly elaborate movie-style heist. But the reality was far simpler. Really, from the facts we've learned from the police today, something not much more than a smash-and-grab.

The Green Vault is considered one of the most wealthy treasure chambers in all of Europe, and yet somehow two men were able to break in through a window, walk up to a glass cabinet filled with priceless, we are told, sets of jewels and jewelry, smash it, and then get out, make off with that jewelry and simply not been seen, and then they have not been seen again, not so far, yet anyway.

So that's where we stand at this point, as the police now mount a manhunt to try and find out just who these people were, how they got in and of course, where they have gotten to now.

The reality is that we are told, the value of these jewels that have been taken are priceless, simply because they are too well-known. They are so valuable, so well-known that they can't be sold on the open market. So that suggests, we are told, that they are likely to be sold perhaps to an illicit private collection on the black market, and perhaps even broken up individually for the purposes of those sales.

The people responsible for this collection, the officials who run this museum, say that would be an absolutely horrible thought, given their cultural and historic significance -- Jim.

[11:00:08]

SCIUTTO: Phil Black in London, thanks very much.