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Ousted Navy Secretary Speaks Out; New CNN Polls on Impeachment; Historic Thanksgiving Week Storm; Three Men Freed after 36 Years. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired November 26, 2019 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[09:32:31]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Fired Navy Secretary Richard Spencer is defending his actions in the case of the Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher. Gallagher was demoted after being convicted posing for a photo with a dead ISIS fighter. But President Trump repeatedly intervened in the case, ultimately pardoning Gallagher, as well as reversing the demotion. Spencer does not agree in very strong terms with the president's repeated intervention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SPENCER, FORMER NAVY SECRETARY: What message does that send to the troops?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, CBS NEWS: Well, what message does it send?
SPENCER: That you can get away with things. We have to have good order and discipline. It's the backbone of what we do.
I don't think he really understands the full definition of a war fighter. A war fighter is a profession of arms and a profession of arms has standards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining me now is CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.
You hear Spencer there in very strong terms. And that is a sentiment that is not confined to the former Navy secretary. What is the reaction in the building there to the result, the end result of this case?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that, you know, there is -- it is fair to say that there is some dismay about all of it. An awful lot of senior leaders here in the Pentagon would like to put this behind them and move forward rather than, as they say, concentrating on the fate of one single, individual, military person, Eddie Gallagher. They do understand what the Navy secretary is saying about a good order in discipline. That is something they are concerned about that this case does not alter that fundamental foundation of the U.S. military.
But there is also concern that Spencer went outside the box. That he went to the president behind the Pentagon's back to try and cut a deal on all of this to preserve Gallagher's SEAL status. So just have a little bit more of a listen to what Spencer has to say and what Defense Secretary Mark Esper's response to this situation is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SPENCER, FORMER NAVY SECRETARY: I will take the bad on me for not letting him know I did that, but he was completely informed as to this because his chief of staff was briefed on it.
MARK ESPER, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Secretary Spencer broke these rules, and thus lost my trust and confidence. Contrary to the narrative that some have put forward in the media, this dismissal is not about Eddie Gallagher. It's about Secretary Spencer and the chain of command.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Now, even this morning, top officials at the Pentagon are disputing Spencer's account and saying neither the defense secretary or his chief of staff knew that Spencer was going to the White House to try and precook a deal that would have preserved Gallagher's SEAL status.
[09:35:10]
And that, of course, would have meant the so-called impartial review would have been anything but.
Jim.
SCIUTTO: So that's key there because what Spencer has said is that, OK, yes, Esper was traveling overseas, so I didn't speak directly with him about this contact with the White House, but I did keep his chief of staff in the loop. So you're saying now the Pentagon is saying that's not true?
STARR: The Pentagon is saying that the chief of staff did not know the specifics of what Spencer was proposing that would have been the deal where they would have had an impartial review of Gallagher, but ahead of time there would have been an agreement that his SEAL status still would have been preserved. They're saying they didn't know that's what Spencer was really proposing.
SCIUTTO: A lot of conflicting comments and versions of this.
Barbara Starr, from the Pentagon, thanks very much.
STARR: Sure.
SCIUTTO: There is stunning testimony from 12 witnesses over two weeks, but did the impeachment hearings move the needle for voters? New CNN polls out this morning. We're going to break those numbers down.
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[09:41:01]
SCIUTTO: Some Democrats have claimed that the last two weeks of public impeachment hearings were convincing in their case against the president. Do voters agree? What do the polls show?
Well, CNN's new polling finds that 50 percent of Americans say the president should be impeached and removed from office. However, that number is the same as in October, before those public hearings began.
With me now, CNN politics reporter and editor at large, Chris Cillizza.
Chris, you know, you look at these numbers, a lot of Democrats were placing a lot of faith in public hearings to move the dial. According to CNN's poll, they haven't.
CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR AT LARGE: Yes, and I'd say, Jim, that Democrats, if you asked them last Friday, did those hearings go how you wanted them to, they would say, not in our wildest dreams did we think Gordon Sondland, for example, would say, yes, there was a quid pro quo, that those hearings went better than they could have imagined.
So I would say Democrats would have been much happier if those numbers had moved up five or ten points. But I would also caution that we, people like you and I are paid to follow this stuff extremely closely. The average person is gearing up for Thanksgiving, looking ahead to Christmas and so I think there's an element to which we have to take a big cleansing breath and think to yourself, it's possible that this will take a little bit longer to seep into the body politic, the average voter, and then let's give it two, three, four weeks and see where we're at.
SCIUTTO: Will it, though? I mean because there's also signs out there that folks are just running out of patience with some of the coverage.
CILLIZZA: Yes.
SCIUTTO: And you look -- let's dig a little deeper on the numbers. Let's look at independents and Republicans here because independents, of course, a key group here, that their support for impeachment is down actually from October by three points. Again, within the margin of error.
CILLIZZA: Yes.
SCIUTTO: I don't want to overstate it. And we should note, among Republicans, up to 10 percent, only 10 percent, but, heck, 10 percent of Republicans think the president -- of Republicans should be impeached and removed from office.
You know, so I hear your point there, but we're also entering a period now where you may not get any new information unless the courts --
CILLIZZA: That's --
SCIUTTO: Courts force key witnesses to testify.
CILLIZZA: That's exactly right. Look, I would look at those numbers among independents, Republicans, and Democrats a little bit as statistical noise. That they're up a little, they're down a little. But to reiterate and to your point, Democrats, if you asked Democrats last Friday, did -- do they think that what happened over the last week and then the two days before that, do they think that will move the needle in terms of public opinion on impeachment? They would say 100 percent yes. So that is absolutely true.
All I am suggesting is, let's not assume that right afterward everyone is fully aware of it. To your point, though, you're right, there's not likely -- we're not -- we don't have another set of public impeachment hearings scheduled, right? So what's -- the points that have been made have been made. It's not clear if it's going to be revisited.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And to your point, if you look at the figures going back a few months, it was 36 percent a number of weeks ago.
CILLIZZA: Right. It's been on the rise.
SCIUTTO: Support for impeach and remove, it's up to 50 percent now. The question is, does it move higher?
Chris Cillizza, always good to have you on.
CILLIZZA: Thank you, my friend.
SCIUTTO: Republican Senator John Kennedy is now walking back, reversing really comments he made supporting a debunked conspiracy theory that claims Ukraine meddled in the 2016 elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX ANCHOR: Was it Russia or Ukraine?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I don't know, nor do you, nor do any of us.
WALLACE: The entire intelligence community says it was Russia.
KENNEDY: Right. But it could also be Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Well, Republicans, as you may have noticed, have used that conspiracy theory as justification for President Trump withholding military aid to Ukraine, saying that he had cause there to investigate that interference. Well, last night, after facing serious backlash, even from some of his Republican counterparts, the Louisiana senator reversed his answer here on CNN.
[09:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Chris is right. I was wrong. The only evidence I have, and I think it's overwhelming, is that it was Russia who tried to hack the DNC computer.
I've seen no indication that Ukraine tried to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Well, although Kennedy himself walked back that part about Ukraine hacking the DNC server, he says he still believes Ukraine could have meddled in the election. We've heard that from a number of other Republicans.
We should note, though, intelligence officials have concluded conspiracy theories pushed by President Trump and several Republican lawmakers are part of a Russian campaign, that this is Russian propaganda to, in effect, shift blame for 2016 election interference away from Moscow onto others just to raise questions to muddy the water. You heard Fiona Hill testify to that very much so under oath just last week.
We're going to stay on that story.
Another story we're following this morning, three men from Baltimore are walking free after spending 36 years in prison for a crime they did not commit. You're going to hear from them coming up.
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[09:50:42]
SCIUTTO: Thanksgiving travelers, I know you might have been worried about this. An historic winter storm will wreak havoc for tens of millions of people this holiday week. A live look right now on your left there as heavy snow wallops the Rockies. You can see the cars getting buried there as dicey conditions threaten travel plans from California to Michigan. Airports like Denver, an important hub for a lot of flights.
CNN's Lucy Kafanov is in Denver, where already hundreds of flights are cancelled.
Tell us what it's looking like there and are travelers going to see any relief in the next couple of days?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the next couple of days, maybe, Jim. But already today nearly 500 flights cancelled at Denver's airport. This is a travel nightmare just two days before Thanksgiving.
We are in downtown Denver. And just take a look at these conditions. The state capitol building behind me, you can barely see it. Several inches of snow on the ground already. They're predicting about 12 to 18 inches of snow. And this is just the metro area. Up north, in the foothills of the mountain, 15 to 30 inches predicted. Wind gusts up to 45 miles an hour. And that creates for some very dangerous conditions. The National Weather Service telling folks to try to stay off the road
because some parts of Colorado will be completely impassable. If you don't have to get in the car, just don't do it. It's simply too dangerous.
Now, Colorado, of course, can handle this but because it's the holiday season, it's making stuff a lot more difficult for folks trying to get home to see their families. For the airport specifically, it's the wind that's the major concern. They got a lot of equipment on the ground in order to be able to clear those runways, but the wind is a big concern. And that's why people are being told to try to come up with some alternate plans.
Major airlines are offering waivers for today so people can rebook for free and try to get home for Thanksgiving.
And, Jim, I am, unfortunately, one of those people who's trying to get home. I'm trying to get home to New York tomorrow. I don't know if I'm going to be able to get out. One of the many people watching the snowstorms as it unfolds, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes, it is no fun. I wish you luck. I wish all those travelers luck as well.
Lucy Kafanov, thanks very much.
Another story we're following, just remarkable. Three men in Baltimore, they're now free after being wrongfully convicted and spending 36 years of their lives in prison. They were convicted in 1983 of the murder of a middle school student. The men were teenagers at the time, sentenced to life in prison. Well, they shouldn't have been there.
And CNN's Brynn Gingras joins me now.
So, Brynn, what was the key to them getting free here?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, one of these men, Alfred Chestnut, filed an information request on his own behalf, which is just incredible, I think, and really that -- getting his hands on this exculpatory evidence in the case, the judge had actually sealed decades ago, that was the key to his and two other men, Ransom Watkins and Andrew Stewart's freedom.
Now, let's go back to 1983. The three men were convicted of killing a teenager for his Georgetown University basketball jacket. The smoking gun, according to police, was a similar jacket was found in Chestnut's bedroom. It didn't, though, have blood or gunshot residue on it. His mom even had a receipt for the jacket, according to this petition that was filed, but still the men were put behind bars.
More evidence has since come to light with that filing. The men were interviewed and interrogated by police without their witnesses -- parents rather, witnesses as well. Potential witnesses of the crime were interviewed by police as a group and told to get their stories straight according to Chestnut's lawyers. Even an anonymous phone call identifying another suspect was kept from the defense during this trial. So all of this was brought to the attention of the Baltimore's Conviction Integrity Unit, which was looking at old convictions.
And the state's attorney sat the men down, apologized, now decades later, and then threw those charges out. After 36 years behind bars, the men are now free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANSOM WATKINS, EXONERATED AFTER 36 YEARS IN PRISON: I think what kept me through it, and the people that's around me as you see here, will help me get through all this. They never stopped fighting for me. And I've never stopped fighting.
MARY STEWART, MOTHER OF EXONERATED MAN: This is the first time I have been able hug my son in about 20-some years. This is wonderful. God bless and God is good all the time. Not sometime but all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GINGRAS: There is no current law in Maryland to compensate those wrongfully convicted, but the state's attorney now says she's going to advocate for that and get this.
[09:55:01]
The men were arrested for this crime on Thanksgiving Day, ripped from their families. This Thanksgiving, Jim, family is where they all say they're going to spend. So this is a story that just makes you so happy but so angry at the same time, right?
SCIUTTO: Well, see, it's a clear miscarriage of justice.
GINGRAS: Absolutely.
SCIUTTO: I mean what about the prosecutors involved? I mean will they face any legal consequences for hiding evidence from the defense?
GINGRAS: Well, the state's attorney actually has since died. Again, this was over 30 years ago.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GINGRAS: The suspect that I was referring to has also died. And we actually tried to track down the lead investigator and we haven't gotten any calls back. But, yes, it really is so frustrating, but good that they get to be home this week.
SCIUTTO: Thirty-six years later.
GINGRAS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Brynn Gingras, thanks very much.
GINGRAS: Yes. SCIUTTO: Well, the Department of Justice is just filing paperwork to appeal. This after a federal judge says that the former White House Counsel Don McGahn must comply with a House subpoena to testify in the impeachment inquiry. We're going to talk about the next steps. That's coming up.
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