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Next Impeachment Hearing Scheduled For December 4; Two Powerful Storms Threaten Thanksgiving Travel; CNN Polling Shows Biden Maintains Double-Digit Lead Buttigieg Surges. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 27, 2019 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: -- July 25th, the now infamous phone call between President Trump Zelensky.

[10:00:03]

Now we know, that same day, an order came down from the White House, their first official action to withhold $250 million in crucial military aid to Ukraine.

And then there is this part, weeks later, late August, according to The New York Times, Trump was briefed on that CIA whistleblower's complaint. That means that he knew about that complaint before he moved to delay the aid to Ukraine. That's very key there.

But, again, only after he was briefed on the whistleblower's complaint, it also means the president knew about the whistleblower when he suddenly said that he wanted no quid pro quo on that phone call with the E.U. ambassador, Gordon Sondland. You may remember that that was in his notes from the White House lawn when he repeated that line just a few days ago.

We were learning all of this as Democrats reveal the next stage in the impeachment inquiry. That will be one week from today, this in the House Judiciary Committee with the president's lawyers now invited to question witnesses there too.

Let's begin with CNN Congressional Correspondent Phil Mattingly.

So, Phil, let's start with what we are learning as we fill in the timeline on the next steps in this impeachment process.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this is moving forward and it's moving forward at a fast pace. And I think one of the interesting things as we've seen new developments, we've seen new transcripts. Obviously, we saw in The New York Times reporting last night is the House Democrats who are working through this impeachment inquiry have made clear that the investigation portion, while they are still taking in information, is mostly over. It is now onto the House Judiciary Committee.

Next week, on Wednesday, the House Judiciary Committee will hold its first hearing. Now, this is largely a nuts and bolts hearing. They're going to have constitutional law experts come in and talk about the president, talk about the history related to impeachment and how it may apply to President Trump in this specific case.

But it is a part of the process that makes clear. The Judiciary Committee is moving forward and that is where articles of impeachment will be drafted, and that is the next step before things end up on the House floor to actually hold a full House vote to impeach the president of the United States.

Now, one of the interesting wrinkles here, Jim, is something you noted, that the president and the president's lawyer have been invited to participate in that hearing. Now, based on the resolution the House passed a couple months ago related to impeachment, this was always a part of the plan. Once it gets to the Judiciary Committee, the president can have representation, and just not representation but also participation. The president's lawyer can be utilized to ask questions during hearings. They can even give a closing statement or a closing presentation during the hearing.

But the one question we don't have a answer to right now is, is the White House going to participate? Nobody expects the president to show up. But will his lawyer come in? Will they participate in this process? Obviously, the White House has made very clear, they have not participated in any aspect of this up to this point, so we still have to wait and see on that answer. But there is an invite on the table, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Phil Mattingly on the Hill, thanks very much.

So how will the president and his attorneys handle the next round this next round of impeachment hearings in the Judiciary Committee? Kristen Holmes in West Palm Beach, where the president is spending the Thanksgiving holiday.

Of course, as you know, the president and his allies have asserted that they didn't have proper rights in this inquiry. They're given the chance here to question witnesses. How will they respond? Will they take advantage of that?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, that is the big question here, and as you say, the Democrats really undercutting that argument by giving them this opportunity.

Now, what we are learning from sources is that, one, no decision has been made about whether or not they're going to participate and, two, they're going to use this time to review that and make that decision.

Although, perhaps, I will say, they're probably not reviewing it at this second since we just learned that President Trump has arrived at his golf club that is here, and so it seems as though that is how he'll be spending the day today.

But as you said, this is important because it undercuts this argument that President Trump and his allies have said over and over again since the beginning of this process. And we looked over this letter, what this invitation includes. And there is really only five main things, which is essentially the White House Counsel is invited to attend all of these hearings, they are allowed to ask questions during the presentation of evidence, they're allowed to question witnesses and raise objections and they are allowed to submit written summaries of additional testimony or evidence and possibly give closing remarks.

But one thing I want to note here, there is a lot of discretion that Chairman Nadler has. There is a line in this proposal that essentially says that if the White House stonewalls, if they do not allow witnesses to come and testify, that he can pull any of the invitation, any parts of this essentially saying that they might not be able to call their own witnesses.

So that's going to play into this, particularly given the tweet that we saw from President Trump that said essentially he wants his aides to testify but he can't let them because of future presidents. We'll have to see how this plays out, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Kristen Holmes, thanks very much.

One consistent player throughout the Ukraine investigation has been Rudy Giuliani. The president directed his aides to go through him. His aides were directed to go through Rudy Giuliani. And reading the transcript of what President Trump refers to as that perfect July 25th call with the president of Ukraine, Mr. Trump told the leader of Ukraine to speak to his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani.

[10:05:04]

I'm quoting here. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him, that would be great. Those are the president's words.

The president has referred to his person attorney time and time again as a great person.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Rudy is a great person. Rudy was a great mayor and a great crime fighter.

Rudy Giuliani was one of the great crime fighters of all time. He's also a friend of mine, he's a great person. He's like an iconic figure in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, last night, the president took a very different tune. Here is what President Trump said when he was asked what Rudy Giuliani was doing in Ukraine on his behalf. Note the distance he tries to establish here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, you have to ask that to Rudy. But Rudy, I don't even know -- I know he was going to go to Ukraine and I think he canceled the trip. But, you know, Rudy has other clients other than me. No, I didn't direct him. But he is a -- he is a warrior, Rudy is a warrior. Rudy went, he possibly-- but you have to understand, Rudy has other people that he represents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I didn't direct him. You know from the transcript of the call that the president directed the president of Ukraine to speak to his personal attorney. Well, does that distance sound familiar?

Here is the president speaking about his other personal attorney of more than ten years, his so-called fixer, Michael Cohen, in December of last year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I never directed him to do anything wrong. Whatever he did, he did on his own. He's a lawyer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Sounds familiar, doesn't it? We all know how that ended.

Joining me now to discuss, former Whitewater Independent Counsel Robert Ray and Nick Akerman, former Assistant Special Watergate Prosecutor.

Let's begin on that. Of course, we had a lot of sworn testimony, did we not, of how the president -- people around the president were directed on Ukraine policy to go through his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. Now, the president is saying, I did not direct him. Is that a credible claim?

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Not at all. I mean, this is the old Rudy who defense. I mean, the same thing he did with Michael Cohen. He is trying to distance himself, because all of the testimony that came out during these hearings basically put it on Rudy Giuliani as the spear carrier for Donald Trump to get the Ukrainians to make this announcement about these investigations on Biden and this investigation into this crazy debunked conspiracy theory that Ukraine was responsible for breaking into the Democratic National Committee, not Russia.

SCIUTTO: Robert Ray?

ROBERT RAY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't know about that. I mean, directing, an invitation by the president or a direction by the president to speak with the president's lawyers is a different thing than directing Rudy Giuliani's activities. All the president was suggesting there is, look, he's my lawyer, you'd have to ask Rudy as to what Rudy did exactly. That's a --

SCIUTTO: If you look at the transcript of the call, he says, go to Rudy, at the same time, he's saying, I need a favor.

RAY: Well, again, the president is saying, I am accountable for the fact that he's my lawyer, but, Nick, you'll know, I mean, it's not unusual for the attorney obviously to be doing things that are outside of the knowledge of the principle, who is the client.

AKERMAN: Well, it is unusual, because you don't do something. I never do anything without first clearing it with my client. And in this particular case, I mean, you've got the testimony of Ambassador Sondland who made it very clear that he was told that everything he should do should be -- at Trump's behest should be at the direction of Rudy Giuliani. And I don't think there is any doubt here. I mean, the testimony is pretty overwhelming.

RAY: But I guess the question is where does that take you, really? I mean, the point is that, as I have said, I think it was an error in judgment to be trying to run at least this foreign policy outside of the usual channels involving the State Department and the Justice Department. But that doesn't mean that what was done here was illegal. And, really, that's the only question that is presented before now the House Judiciary Committee in terms of determining whether or not there are articles of impeachment that should be voted on by the House and sent onto the Senate.

SCIUTTO: Well, that is an argument you hear more and more now, which is that, well, inappropriate but not impeachable.

AKERMAN: No. Inappropriate? It's illegal. It was an extortion- bribery scheme. I mean, there's no question that what Donald Trump was trying to do was use the people's money, $391 million in order to force the Ukrainian government to come out and make an announcement that they were investigating the Bidens, that Donald Trump would have used throughout the campaign, just like he did with Hillary Clinton with her emails saying, Biden is a guilty party. He must be because the Ukraine government is investigating him. He doesn't really want the Ukrainian government to do the investigation, because there's nothing there.

SCIUTTO: Well, Sondland did testify that he wanted the announcement of the investigation didn't necessarily want the investigation to take place.

I do want to get to another issue because we also learned that the president only released the aid to Ukraine crucial military assistance after learning that there was a whistleblower's complaint exposing this pressure campaign.

[10:10:00]

Does that get to the legal question of corrupt intent here?

RAY: Well, look, it's a timeline. And I understand the hooray henrys who want to draw inferences from what the timeline signifies. Look, the president made a request to Ukraine with regard to Burisma and the investigation of the Bidens. It was not a demand. So, Nick, your reference to pressure and force is not extortion and it's not bribery unless, as I have tried to suggest, unless there is an explicit quid pro quo that is something like not do me a favor but look, here's the deal, you're not going to get foreign assistance. SCIUTTO: Ukrainian official who felt enormous pressure because they are at war with Russia and dependent on U.S. military aid, and that aid was taken away while that request was being made. Is that not pressure?

RAY: Well, there is nothing illegal about the president making a request to the president of the country. I'm not interested about what the rest of Ukrainian and other Ukrainian officials felt. The president of Ukraine himself has said, no pressure. So it's an odd extortion case or bribery case in the absence of --

SCIUTTO: You might say he's under pressure to make that statement.

AKERMAN: Yes, but the focus here not on the intent of the president of Ukraine. The focus is on Donald Trump and what his intent was. And it's clear from that whole conversation, just like all of these mob transcripts I used to read and mob conversations I used to overhear when I was a prosecutor, they always ask, do me a favor. They don't come out and say, this is the quid, this is the pro quo. They don't talk in Latin. They talk in street talk, just like Donald Trump does.

And to me, that was just like all of the conversations I used to overhear in terms of the mob prosecutions that I used to to do.

RAY: Look, I still think it's significant that the president said, when confronted by Ambassador Sondland, listen, when he was asked, what do you want? The answer was, I want President Zelensky and the Ukrainians to do what it is they said they promised to do during the campaign. It strikes me that there is nothing really revealing about today's New York Times story that suggest, oh, no, no, that's a critical fact. We now know that the president was briefed beforehand with regard to

the whistleblower complaint seems to me all consistent with what the president's intent was relative to the phone call, which is the best evidence of what the president's intent was.

SCIUTTO: To be fair, point of fact, we also know that he knew about the whistleblower complaint alleging in those a quid pro quo before he used that language to Sondland saying no quid pro quo.

Listen, gentlemen, it's an ongoing conversation. These issues are going to come up. We appreciate you coming on.

RAY: Thank you. Thanks for having us both.

SCIUTTO: I hope you get a chance for a pleasant Thanksgiving.

RAY: Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.

AKERMAN: Happy Thanksgiving.

RAY: Thank you.

AKERMAN: Be well. SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, more than 2,000 miles of winter weather and storms, oh boy, wreaking havoc on holiday travel, putting a damper on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Will those balloons fly? We'll have the latest next.

And a new CNN poll shows South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg surging. But can anyone touch the frontrunner, Joe Biden? He's staying well ahead.

Plus, America's Kurdish allies and Syria say they feel abandoned and betrayed. Clarissa Ward went back to Syria to see how things have changed since U.S. troops left. She's going to join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Two very powerful storms are making a mess for many travel plans this Thanksgiving. 19 million people under some sort of winter weather warning or advisory. It stretches across 2,000 miles of the country from California to Michigan to New York, blizzard high wind warnings, making for dangerous road conditions and also, sadly, tons of delays at the airports.

Meteorologist Chad Myers is in the CNN Weather Center watching all of it. Where is it going to be worst?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: I guess the northeast and the Midwest because of the wind and then across the west if you're trying to drive through the snow.

It's been two weeks of tranquil weather and then all of a sudden you throw a calendar up, and it says Thanksgiving and you two storms that are major events across the east coast and across the west coast.

Here is the one for the west, up and down I-5, I-80, all of the passes over the Sierra are an absolute mess. Many of them saying, if you don't have four-wheel drive or chains, don't even try just yet because today is not the day for you to get there, maybe tomorrow.

Then we move to Chicago and Cleveland, and you're seeing winds to 50. Airports are already very, very slow. Although last I checked, only 100 planes were cancelled, and I know that's kind of tongue and cheek only. But considering what we have here, 100 planes is actually pretty good. We have rain coming into the northeast, we've had rain through Atlanta, slowed things down briefly but now back on time. Across parts of the northeast, the rain is going to continue today.

But the snow in the east is Ontario and Quebec, and it's not Ohio, New York and New England yet. That will change by Sunday. So keep that in mind.

As we work our way through the airports today, there will be delays. And even if your airport here is green, your plane may be coming from somewhere that's red. So you may get some delays anyway.

[10:20:00] But now, let me fast forward 15 seconds to Sunday. This is the day home for most of you. The rain-snow line will be Poconos, Adirondack, Catskills and all the way up through the Adirondacks and up here into New England by 6:00 or 8:00 that night, Sunday night. So if you are down in the south, it's going to be raining. But if you are up here, it's going to be snow, also snow into Chicago as well. Keep that in mind for early departures from your Turkey destination. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Listen to Chad. That's my advice to you. Thanks very much.

MYERS: All right.

SCIUTTO: Meanwhile, strong winds in New York could force officials to ground those very popular giant balloons in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. CNN Entertainment Reporter Chloe Melas joins us now from New York.

I mean, is this really going to happen?

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Jim, that is the big question. And officials are going to make that decision on Thanksgiving morning. As you can see, they are setting up right behind me and people are hoping that these 16 massive helium character balloons are going to take flight. But there is very strict criteria as to whether or not these balloons can actually fly.

Here's what it comes down to, Jim. Ainds are not supposed to exceed over 23 miles per hour. And tomorrow, New York City could see winds as high as 26, so well over the limit there. When it comes to the wind gusts, Jim, they're not supposed to be over 34, and we could see wind gusts as high as 40.

But I've spoken to people from all over the world, as far as South Africa, who have come here to New York City to see the parade in person for the very first time, to see Snoopy take his 40th flight, the longest running balloon, he's an astronaut this year. So people are still holding out hope. But, again, it's going to be a game day decision.

Something I found really interesting, that 2-mile parade route that each balloon has an actual supervisor, Jim, where they are wearing an earpiece, and they are being constantly being fed information about the weather, whether to lower these balloons, re-maneuver them. So, really, when it comes on to wheather, it's incredibly strict. But people are still holding out hope, including myself.

SCIUTTO: I hope so too. Thanks a lot, Chloe.

MELAS: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, Biden flexes, Buttigieg surges, brand-new CNN polling is out, just four Democrats sitting at double digits now with just over two months until to Iowa. We're going to break all the numbers down next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: New CNN polling shows former Vice President Joe Biden still leading the pack of 2020 Democrats. That's been one consistent thing throughout. South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg is on the rise but his problems connecting with minority voters still looming large.

Joining me now, David Swerdlick, he's Assistant Editor for The Washington Post.

David, a lot to break down here. One is Buttigieg's rise in the polls. That's significant, while still showing weakness among African-Americans.

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, good morning, Jim. And I think that's attributable to the fact his rise, anyway, to the fact that he was the one candidate in this field that was sort of staying nimble and on his feet and realizing that the shift from the progressive side to the moderate side was the way that he could sort of jump ahead. Everybody else was either sort of fixed on the left or the right side of the Democratic Party. Buttigieg made that jump sort of successfully. And now he is there with Biden trying to get those voters in the middle.

He does have that problem with African-American voters still. But everybody else has that problem as well except for former Vice President Biden, who has a commanding lead among black voters. The question will be what happens in the first two states, Iowa and New Hampshire, because those two states have very small African-American populations.

SCIUTTO: I feel like the periodic story regarding Biden has been Biden fading, someone else surging. A couple weeks ago, that was Elizabeth Warren. If you look at these numbers, her surge has disappeared. Biden consistently stays at the top of the pack. How confident is that making the Biden campaign that they can maintain this lead as we start going to those first primary states?

SWERDLICK: Well, Jim, as a pure matter of text (ph), I don't think any campaign should be too confident or too cocky because they're still going to have to campaign against President Trump if they win the nomination and President Trump, whatever people think of him, is a formidable campaigner. But Biden, again, is sort of undergirded by that heavy African-American support and African-Americans are one of the core demographics within the Democratic electorate.

And he, unlike some of the other candidates, has weathered some of the knocks he's taken in the debates. President Biden took those knocks and didn't lose too much of his momentum versus someone like, say, Senator Warren who, really, over the summer, really was gaining on Biden, but the last two debates, she hasn't performed that well and it has hurt her and it's reflected in our poll.

SCIUTTO: Buttigieg with African-Americans, he surged in the overall number but really hasn't moved as we look at these numbers in the CNN polling at all among non-white voters. How concerning for him? SWERDLICK: Well, I think he's still got an opportunity to gain black voters. The questions are going to be, how can he answer questions about the way he handled police and community issues, particularly with the African-American community in South Bend where he is mayor. He's gotten a lot of criticism for that. Number two, he's going to have to continue to let black voters, particularly in South Carolina, an early state, get to know him.

[10:30:04]

Part of the thing he's a mayor of a medium-size city who was unknown before this race and he --