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Politics Of Impeachment; Rudy Giuliani's Rough Week; President Trump Visits Troops In Afghanistan. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired November 28, 2019 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Welcome back. You're watching a special edition of CNN NEWSROOM here on this Thanksgiving Day. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for spending part of your holiday with me.

Let's get straight to the big story, the breaking news just this afternoon that the president has made a surprise visit to U.S. troops stationed in Afghanistan.

This is the first time he's traveled to this particular country, where America has been at war for 18 years. The commander in chief said that he has restarted talks with the Taliban and is waiting to see if the Taliban -- quote -- "wants to make a deal with the United States."

He also said that a number of troops are coming home from this part of the world, without specifying a number. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Weeks ago, we also announced that the forces are coming back. They're coming back home. We're reducing over here.

But because of technology and all of the things that we have, we're able to reduce in Afghanistan, very substantially actually reduce, and do even more devastating attacks on the enemy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, CNN White House Correspondent, Kaitlan Collins down there in Florida.

And so, Kaitlan, let's talk specifically about what he discussed with regards to the Taliban. What did he say?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the president actually made some news while he was in Afghanistan.

He talked about how they -- he says they restarted talks, peace talks with the Taliban, something that, just three months ago, he declared dead. But, today, he announced that those talks are back on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: The Taliban wants to make a deal. We will see if they want to make a deal. It's got to be a real deal. But we will see. But they want to make a deal.

And they only want to make a deal because you're doing a great job. That's the only reason they want to make a deal. So I want to thank you, and I want to thank the Afghan soldiers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, Brooke, you will remember, it was just less than three months ago that the president said the peace talks with the Taliban leaders were dead.

That was after he announced on Twitter that he had invited leaders of the Taliban to come to Camp David for those final rounds of negotiations, but said he later called them off after an attack by the Taliban left one person dead.

And the president essentially hinting there that he thinks the Taliban is more eager to come to the table this time, though there are going to be questions about a cease-fire of what those talks would look like going forward.

But, Brooke, just to give you a sense of just how secret the White House kept this trip, the president left Palm Beach last night, and he flew to Washington, where he boarded another plane at that airport outside of Washington, and a plane that was not out on the tarmac, like it normally is when the president gets on, and there are cameras there.

Instead, he went into a hangar and boarded the plane inside of that, where it was hidden. And that's when they went to Afghanistan. And as they flew there, they had the lights off, the window shades were drawn.

And to keep it a secret and to keep suspicions at bay, they even went so far as to schedule tweets to come from the president's Twitter account, so that when he didn't have access to the Internet and tweets weren't coming from his accounts, people would not grow suspicious about what was going on with the president's schedule.

BALDWIN: Wow. How about that, all the planning the choreography that goes into a surprise visit like this. They pulled it out.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you in Florida.

As we talk about the president at Bagram Air Base today, just north of Kabul, it's important to just recognize the backdrop to this trip. This is the first time that President Trump has addressed members of the military since he intervened in the case of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher and his colleagues who were accused of war crimes, and the first time since the firing of Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, who just wrote this scorching op-ed in "The Washington Post."

So let's have a bigger conversation. With me now, CNN Pentagon Correspondent, Barbara Starr and CNN Military and Diplomatic Analyst, Rear Admiral John Kirby, who also served as the press secretary for the U.S. Navy and the Pentagon.

So, welcome to both of you. Happy Thanksgiving.

And, Barbara, we know that the president made that surprise trip to Iraq last Christmas. But let me just start with each of you, beginning with you, Barbara, on the significance of today's trip.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, the troops always want to see a president of the United States.

I think it's something that over the decades the American people have come, quite rightly, to expect, that the commander in chief, if he is going to send troops into harm's way -- hopefully, someday, it'll be a she that sends -- that has that responsibility.

But if a president is going to send troops into harm's way, as commander in chief, they need to demonstrate that they are willing and able to go visit them. It's always a security nightmare. The Secret Service, the U.S. military goes to extraordinary lengths to protect any president of the United States when they travel, especially when they travel to a war zone, a very important signal to military families that this president, any president is willing to come visit their troops overseas, especially on holidays.

Mr. Trump talking about a Taliban cease-fire, families may get very excited about that. That still may be a very long road ahead. Talking to the Taliban about a cease-fire is not the same as the Taliban agreeing to it and the Taliban agreeing to keep that promise.

[15:05:02]

Still very tough going in Afghanistan, tough road ahead, before he can bring additional troops home -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Admiral Kirby, to you.

Listening to the bigger message from the president, obviously, he's there for the troops, had some turkey. And he talked about -- also talked about how he cares so much about the military, talked about the fancy planes and helicopters that he was helping provide DOD, at the same time boasting about the economy back home.

You listened to him. What did you take away from his message today?

JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: Well, first, Brooke, I was really glad to see him go there, for all the reasons that Barbara rightly stated.

It is important for the commander in chief to visit troops in the field over the holidays like that, and it's a great shot in the arm for them. So, hats off to him for going.

And, frankly, I was actually pleased that his talk wasn't more political. Typically, when we have seen him do these phone calls or go in front of troops, it's much more like a political rally, much more energetic. He's lambasting his rivals and critics.

He didn't do that today. So I was grateful for that.

That said, I think the Afghans could be forgiven for maybe being a little bit uncomfortable with what he said about pulling our troops out and all this readiness to talk to the Taliban. It's important that they be a part of this, and that they are included in whatever talks going forward.

Barbara is right. It's going to take a long time. We're not there yet. And if the Taliban smell weakness, which they would if we're just going to precipitously withdraw, it's going to make those talks a lot harder.

Now, as for the economy, the troops don't really -- that's not their purview. I think that was probably inappropriate for him to bring up. He had to brag. It's just the way he is. But at least he didn't get -- as I saw, didn't get all that political.

BALDWIN: There are layers to this too, Barbara. We talk about the context of this trip.

You have all this great reporting today about some concerns that military officials have about the commander in chief's recent decision-making. Tell us about those concerns.

STARR: Well, let's just again start with a point. The military reflects American society.

Absolutely, there are a significant number of military troops that are supporters of this president. That would be expected. That would be the right thing. People in America have a wide variety of political views, and the military reflects that. So that's actually a good thing, I would say.

There are some that do not support him. But the difference this time is, top commanders are dismayed and concerned. And it's all been building for quite a while. His discussions about, for example, keeping the oil in Syria, that's not something that U.S. military troops do. They don't keep the natural resources.

They enable other forces in a country overseas to stand on their own and support a government overseas. They don't do it themselves. They don't keep the oil.

His discussions about exonerating these cases involving war crimes allegations quite dismaying to top commanders. They want a uniform set of rules. They want to be able to administer military justice. And they want to show the troops that there is a system of accountability, that you can't just get the ear of FOX News, which, factually, is what happened in these cases, and have FOX News, factually, which is what happened, get the president's ear and encourage him to exonerate these people. That's really a poor outcome. That's something that has top

commanders very worried. They don't want to see this kind of military justice being administered by the president.

BALDWIN: It's been a huge story, especially in the last week.

And, Admiral Kirby, I can't help but think, on this Thanksgiving, when some of us get to be surrounded by our loved ones, you think of the men and women in uniform. I'm sure you have had many a Thanksgiving away from home, right, where they're breaking bread with fellow sailors and airmen and soldiers.

And they have to be paying attention to what's going on back here, the tensions between the Pentagon and the president. And I'm wondering, just do they feel like this country has their back?

KIRBY: Oh, I believe they do, sure, Brooke.

Look, I mean, they're not cut off from the world. They can follow the news. And, as Barbara said, some of them have different opposing views here about their commander in chief from a political perspective.

But they're focused on the mission. And when you're overseas, particularly at the holidays -- and you're right, I have spent several holidays away -- that's your second family. That's the family that you're breaking bread with. That's the -- those are the men and women that you're serving with and that matter to you, and you love them in your own way.

And so you're focused on making sure that they're safe, the mission is accomplished, and that your head is screwed on right, and you're not being distracted by what's going on back home.

So I'm not worried about them overseas in terms of all the turmoil here. I think they -- I think they know what the nation expects of them. And I do -- more importantly, Brooke, I think they know that the American people are behind them 100 percent, no matter what political party they're from.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Admiral Kirby, thank you. Barbara Starr, thank you.

And, again, happy holiday to both of you.

Coming up next: Rudy Giuliani's rough week. We will break down four key developments this week for the president's personal attorney.

[15:10:02]

Also ahead, Michael Bloomberg's campaign manager is arguing that impeachment is actually making it more likely that this president will be reelected. We will hear him out.

And, later, protesters in Hong Kong waving U.S. flags after President Trump signed a bill supporting their fight for democracy. But guess what? The Chinese government is none too pleased about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:13]

BALDWIN: We are back. You're watching CNN on this Thanksgiving Thursday.

This week, the legal walls seemed to be really closing in on the president's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani. After weeks of hearing American diplomats testify about how he is -- quote, unquote -- "a problem" in the impeachment inquiry, there were even more headlines about how his work in Ukraine and elsewhere -- elsewhere may have crossed the line.

Just to bring it all together, let's go to CNN Political Correspondent, Sara Murray.

And so, Sara, it's been a bit of a week for Rudy Giuliani.

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Not a great week, Brooke, to be Rudy Giuliani. The hits, they just keep piling up this week.

I mean, let's start with his own business. We know, from our own reporting, that prosecutors have been looking into Rudy Giuliani's business dealings, obviously not a great thing.

And we learned a lot more from reporting from "The Washington Post" and "New York Times" about some of those business dealings. We learned that Giuliani, while he was pushing the president's agenda in Ukraine with Ukrainian officials who really wanted to make nice with the U.S., he was also pursuing business deals in Ukraine, even though he has denied that he ever had any business to do with that country.

There are some other questionable business deals. These ones were reported by "The Washington Post." This was one where Rudy Giuliani represented a Venezuelan energy executive who's been accused, allegedly, of money laundering and of bribery.

Now, while Rudy Giuliani was representing this gentleman, he decided to make the case with other lawyers to the Justice Department that they should not bring criminal charges, which is obviously an interesting position for the president's personal lawyer to be in.

And last but not least, there is the awkward relationship between President Trump and Rudy Giuliani. The president was asked in an interview, what was Rudy Giuliani doing on your behalf in Ukraine anyway?

And the president said, oh, you have to ask Rudy.

BALDWIN: Go talk to Rudy.

MURRAY: I don't know, even though, of course, on the phone call with the Ukrainian president, Donald Trump was the one who said, well, you should talk to Rudy.

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm.

MURRAY: Not a great week.

BALDWIN: As we pointed out, kind of sounds like, go talk to Michael Cohen. And, well, we know the rest of that.

MURRAY: All of a sudden, he just has no idea what's going on. Strange how that works.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Sara Murray, happy Thanksgiving, friend. Thank you.

MURRAY: Happy Thanksgiving.

BALDWIN: Let's analyze what Sara just reported out of the week of Rudy Giuliani.

Harry Litman is back with us today, once served as deputy assistant attorney general, former U.S. attorney, and with us now.

So, Harry, happy -- happy Turkey Day to you.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Hi, Brooke. Happy Thanksgiving.

BALDWIN: From what we know, where does Giuliani have the most legal exposure?

LITMAN: Well, it's sort of two big pots of legal exposure, because he was doing two different things.

He, on the one hand, was trying to do Trump's bidding, and, on the other, he was influencing-peddling on his own behalf for all it was worth. And he would toggle back and forth and try to say, no, I'm really his lawyer, oh, no, I'm actually not.

So, in the sort of silo of what Trump -- running Trump's business there, he's got what Trump would be looking at if he weren't president, bribery, conspiracy, campaign finance violations. On the other side, all the influence-peddling, he's looking at failure to register, false statements, obstruction, wire fraud.

So it's two big pots. And talk to Rudy is the watchword, but the prosecutors in his old office haven't talked to him, which he should know, well, that's a really bad sign. They're working their way up toward him, and they have sent subpoenas far and wide on this laundry list of offenses.

And he's in very, very hot water.

BALDWIN: So with the two -- with the two big pots, how does his...

LITMAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: How does Giuliani's role affect the president and his impeachment defense?

Because we here at CNN have reporting that prosecutors are a bit wary of the upcoming election and using that as a looming deadline. So how do they deal with that?

LITMAN: Yes, they try in these kinds of instances to be impervious to it, but there's no way to really do it.

But we have got enough. It's the actual guidelines, try to keep their hands off the last three months. I don't think this will keep the Southern District of New York from going after him aggressively. And they already have his two sort of henchmen, Fruman and Parnas, cooperating.

So I think, for now, it doesn't change things. If they actually indict him, and there's a dynamic between the Trump charges and Giuliani charges, since Trump is already trying to throw him under the train, that then could really affect things on both sides of the Capitol.

BALDWIN: Wasn't Rudy Giuliani doing, allegedly, exactly what he's accusing Joe Biden of doing, of pressuring foreigners for personal gain?

LITMAN: Well, yes, but we're -- I mean, he's actually said now that they're just trying to come after me to -- because I was trying to ferret out the Biden bribery.

[15:20:02]

I think really much, much worse, because it's so much more broad. And there's this whole big half of it, where he was really trying to feather his own nest by claiming influence and access with the president, which led to many different alleged criminal charges.

BALDWIN: OK.

LITMAN: So, yes, it's the pot calling the kettle black or making the same kinds of charges, and then some.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

Let's look to next week. December 4, right is ring-fenced in the calendar, the House Judiciary Committee, hearing number one.

LITMAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: And they hold their first impeachment hearing.

The White House is considering not sending any lawyer, any representative. Why would that be? Is that a big deal or not?

LITMAN: You know, it's a medium big deal. I think it's a big deal for the country, in the sense that the White

House really ought to see some responsibility for actually giving their version and letting the American people judge. But they're seeing it in sheer political partisan terms.

And why wouldn't they come forward? Why wouldn't they at least have a witness there? I think they're thinking they don't want to validate the proceedings at all. They want to stand back and pick at the so- called fairness or due process issues and do anything but engage on the merits.

And my best guess is, they will stay away on the 4th, even though it's just an academic discussion, so that they can continue to say that the whole proceedings are a witch-hunt.

BALDWIN: Got it.

Harry Litman, always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

LITMAN: Likewise. Thanks, Brooke. Have a...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Thank you. Same to you.

Coming up next: Could impeachment actually help Trump? Michael Bloomberg's campaign manager thinks so. We will see if poll numbers bear that out.

Also ahead, tens of thousands of people without power, hundreds of flights canceled. We will get an update for you on two major storm systems on this Thanksgiving.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:49]

BALDWIN: As we were just discussing, next week brings the first House Judiciary Committee impeachment hearings.

And this is the committee that will vote on whether to bring articles of impeachment against President Trump. If that is their decision, then it goes up for a full vote in the House. If that passes, the action then moves to hearings on the Senate side, where it is highly unlikely they would vote to convict the president and thus remove him.

Now, Michael Bloomberg's campaign manager is warning the Democrats should actually pump the brakes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN SHEEKEY, BLOOMBERG CAMPAIGN MANAGER: There are about 31 congressional districts in this country that are swing districts.

Mike Bloomberg spend an enormous amount of money and time and his own leadership to focus on 24 of those races last year, all Republican. We elected 18 Democrats. Fifteen of them are women.

But if you're in one of those districts today, and you're a moderate member of Congress, almost all of them would tell you today, these impeachment hearings are threatening their reelection.

Now, if you think about that, those are the districts too where we tilt that the presidential election, which, by definition, means, hey, listen, these impeachment proceedings are making the president's reelection more likely, not less likely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to CNN Senior Political Analyst, Ron Brownstein. He's with me. He's also Senior Editor over at "The Atlantic."

Ron, happy Thanksgiving, my friend.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Happy Thanksgiving, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Do you buy Kevin Sheekey's analysis? Do you think Sheekey is right?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, first of all, I mean, that is quite an argument to start -- to walk into a Democratic primary with, at a point where the vast majority of Democratic voters believe that what President Trump did justifies impeachment, regardless of the political consequences.

I would say we obviously don't know exactly how this is going to play out.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: But polling and history don't really offer a lot of support for the argument that this is like some guaranteed political winner for Republicans.

First of all, we have only had two impeachments in modern times. Richard Nixon resigned in 74, after the House Judiciary Committee voted articles of impeachment. And, obviously, Bill Clinton faced impeachment in 1998.

Each time, the party that pursue the impeachment won the next election, the next presidential election, and they want it behind a candidate who presented themselves, in essence, as the antidote to the scandal that precipitated impeachment.

Jimmy Carter in '76 ran on honesty and restoring a government as good as the people. And, of course, George W. Bush in 2000 ran on restoring honor and decency to the Oval Office.

So there's not a lot of evidence of seeing this backfire. And if you look at the polling right now, what impeachment is doing is more confirming than confounding or changing the lines of division on Trump. It's not really changing opinion much in terms of his job approval. But what it is doing, I think, is deepening the discontent among those

who disapprove of him. I mean, over 90 percent of people who disapprove of Trump say that he does not believe in the rule of law and he acted improperly in Ukraine.

And that is a challenge for him at a moment when he has faced majority disapproval for most of his presidency.

BALDWIN: Sure.

BROWNSTEIN: And he ultimately needs some of those people to decide he's the lesser of two evils against the Democrat in 2020.

So, no, I don't think -- I mean, is it obviously a boon for Democrats? No, but is it a benefit for Trump? I don't think you can say that.

BALDWIN: No.

But I think your point about this sort of political pendulum swinging one -- one way, it's just eventually...

BROWNSTEIN: Right.

BALDWIN: ... it ends up on the other side.

What about, big picture, electorate? Because Democrats are making gains in the suburbs, but is that enough to beat Trump? Like, where is he most vulnerable?